(http://www.treehugger.com/20081209-the-bailout-shitty-cars.jpg)
[cool] I'll like it. And is 100% true
Jochen
I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars because they realized that not enough people were buying American cars. The president of Toyota and the Japanese prime minister got on a jet and flew over to talk to the President about it.
Trade is tricky because if you put a quota, tarriff, or an embargo on another country they can do the same thing to you.
At the end of the meeting, the agreement was that the Japan would raise the sale price of their cars between $2000-5000.
Even with that price increase, their cars are still cheaper and better. But that's okay because GM janitors should make $30/hr and get full benefits.
wicked, wicked satire BK. c*
Quote from: Sonoran on December 10, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...
??? ??? I can't find any recent news about this... ??? Where did that come from?
I'm pretty p.o.'d about this bailout.
If I can help it, I will never buy another Ford, GM, Chrysler product.
-f-
(Currently an owner of one F250, one 4-Runner, one Hyundai)
Quoteconsidering putting a quota on Japanese cars
They will have a hard time determining what's Japanese. Is the Toyota or Honda made in (say) Ohio a Japanese car? What about the Chevy Avio made in Korea, is that an American car. Where does Mazda fit in?.... Ford has a big stake in it. Only Japanese cars? Not Korean? or assembled in Canada like my last Ford truck?
Good Luck with that. d*
Quote from: MountainDon on December 10, 2008, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: Sonoran on December 10, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...
??? ??? I can't find any recent news about this... ??? Where did that come from?
Maybe the American car industry should try to built a better product in the first place. We bought a new Dodge Journey in March 2008 as a daily driver. >:( Traded it already in for a new Hyundai Entourage in October 2008.
Jochen
Quote from: MountainDon on December 10, 2008, 07:47:50 PM
Quote from: Sonoran on December 10, 2008, 03:37:14 PM
I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...
??? ??? I can't find any recent news about this... ??? Where did that come from?
I heard this from my econ teacher. It's not very recent. I remember him mentioning a date...2004 comes to mind but I'm not sure.
Regardless of when, it's pretty crazy to think that they raised prices to avoid a quota and the Big 3 still can't compete.
The lesson was on trade, so he used this as an example.
Quote from: John C on December 10, 2008, 08:08:19 PM
Quoteconsidering putting a quota on Japanese cars
They will have a hard time determining what's Japanese. Is the Toyota or Honda made in (say) Ohio a Japanese car? What about the Chevy Avio made in Korea, is that an American car. Where does Mazda fit in?.... Ford has a big stake in it. Only Japanese cars? Not Korean? or assembled in Canada like my last Ford truck?
Good Luck with that. d*
If I am an American carmaker and I design a car, everytime one of my cars sell I receive a percentage of the profit. If I have my cars made in Japan and sell them to Japanese people, the car is still my car.
I wonder, in the cituation of cars...is it cheaper for the Japanese to have Americans build their cars versus building them in another country and shipping them to the U.S.? I imagine that most car companies would build cars close to where they are selling them in order to save money.
I see what you are saying...it's not like it is a trade issue because the Japanese aren't shipping cars to the U.S.. They are building them in the U.S. I wish I knew more about the cituation. It seems like the Japanese can determine the sale price, regardless of whether or not the build cars in their country and ship them over, or just build them here.
Sonoran,
You are viewing the car as an item. It's not... It's thousands of items, perhaps built in a half dozen or more countries, sub assemblies and major assembly possibly done in different countries as well.
Water pumps and ignition parts produced in country A, with steel made in country B, assembled into an engine in country C , dropped into a chassis in country D. The issue of "domestic content" has been addressed in typical politico fashion for a long time.
Yeah, you are right.
But in the end, as a complete product, Japanese cars are owning USA cars. In an attempt to close the Gap, according to my econ teacher, our gov't was considering putting a limit on the amount of Japanese cars that were being sold in the U.S.
The Japanese raised the sell price and they are still outselling the U.S. cars.
I guess I got off on tangents...but in the end I still feel like it depends on the people in control when it comes down to whose is whats.
It's still a Japanese car even if they have parts produced at point A,B,C, and D...right?
QuoteIt's still a Japanese car even if they have parts produced at point A,B,C, and D...right?
That's a definition they've been wrestling with for a long time.
In the end they will figure something out, and quickly, after all they're smart folks. Then, given time, equally smart folks will figure out the loopholes in the new laws and exploit them. So if designing it here makes it non Japanese then the cars will be designed here and built wherever. And so on..
The domestic brands have three major problems.
1. They are saddled with union contracts and obligations that make it impossible to build a price competitive vehicle.
2. They aren't building what people want, but right now
no one knows the next automotive paradigm. Smaller? How much smaller? Hybrids? Electric? Hydrogen? It's expensive to develop these concepts only to see them met by a marketplace yawn.
3. The perception, real or not, is that they produce a lower quality product. Normally a manufacturer would have to produce a product of equal or better quality and bring it to market at a more favorable price..... over time consumer confidence would be restored. Hyundai did exactly that. Ten years ago their cars were poorly built. They hired Toyota to revamp their QC and sold their cars a few dollars cheaper and with a 100,000 mile warranty. Recently they placed above Mercedes and BMW in J.C Powers initial quality satisfaction surveys..... job well done Hyundai. Item #1 makes that a tough nut to crack for the foundering three.
Where is Peternap when we need popcorn.
I have the popcorn John.. ;D
I'm not happy about the bailout either, even though it hasn't happened yet.
I see a lot of problems in this country that just mirror the problems in the auto industry. The biggest problem I see is that we don't really make anything worth a darn in this country anymore. We have become a nation of white collar managers. I talked to Larry Kidd last evening on the phone. Among the other challenges he has is the ubolts that hold his dump body on the frame of his dump truck...broke. He can't afford to buy new ones.
I walked him through making a forge with a brake drum and a vacuum cleaner, and told him what was made out of 5160 steel and how to draw temper them after he finished. He's a very inventive fellow and he now knows how to make something else. That's a lesson a LOT OF US SHOULD LEARN.
The next problem is of course, the Government! Those hand forged u bolts won't pass inspection if they are spotted. More government interference. Look at what it takes to make engines (large and small) meet pollution standards. Those of you that use chainsaws...do you know why you have to retune a chainsaw to get any life out of it at all. It's because the manufacturers have to set them so lean. They pass the EPA but will burn up in short order.
Same thing with American cars.
UNIONS....Unions were necessary at one point in this country. Google the Redneck War and read up on the battle of blair mountain. The unions were needed then....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain, but like all things, became corrupt and too big. Now they are just strangling themselves.
Big management..........It speaks for itself.
My feeling is that we need to let nature take it's course.....let em go under and start fresh. Won't happen though! :-\
QuoteI walked him through making a forge with a brake drum and a vacuum cleaner,
When I built boats one of the
fun jobs was to cast the lead keels. Rigged an old cast iron bath tub with a spout. Drilled a bunch of 1/2" holes in a length of large iron pipe and connected it to the exhaust of a commercial vacuum cleaner. Braced the tub over the pipe, shoveled coal, not charcoal, on top of the pipe. When it got going we started the vacuum. With a really hot fire you could keep adding lead and pouring and avoid any cold joints. We did one 8,000 lb keel in mid summer in Key Largo, FL. Had to wear heavy clothes, face masks etc in case of spatters. We were using scrap lead so just a drop of water inside an old cable casing would be a problem. Those were the days.... glad they are behind me.
Quote from: Sonoran on December 10, 2008, 08:47:27 PM
...is it cheaper for the Japanese to have Americans build their cars versus building them in another country and shipping them to the U.S.?
I believe that the original impetus for the Japanese to build factories in the USA was an idea fostered by the UAW. They wanted higher tariffs on the imported Japanese cars (to protect their jobs). Some one came up with the idea of giving the Japanese a break on the tariffs if they would build US plants. UAW thought that the Japanese would never do that; too expensive, and so on. Well, they fooled the UAW. Not only did they build plants, 33 wholly owned by the Japanese, at last count as far as I know, the UAW has never succeeded in unionizing any of those 33.
Toyota has exported some US made models to the middle east. At the beginning of the year they also China.
The last plant Honda opened in Indiana had 33000 applicants for the 900 jobs.
Quotethe UAW has never succeeded in unionizing any of those 33
Repeat after me. The problem is not the union, the problem is not the union, ommm is it working?
Didn't think so.
I was wondering when this topic pic would end up at CP.
It nearly implies everything made in this country is crap.
Where were you made ?
Think about that.
sparks
Quote from: sparks on December 10, 2008, 11:56:25 PM
.......
Where were you made ?
Think about that.
sparks
Sorry you asked. So here is my answer. Not in the U.S. and when George W. Bush got elected, I sold our 20 acres in Montana and moved north.
Jochen
Quote from: sparks on December 10, 2008, 11:56:25 PM
I was wondering when this topic pic would end up at CP.
It nearly implies everything made in this country is crap.
Where were you made ?
Think about that.
Ouch Sparks...
In general...the things that we strive for as Americans reflect the way we are raised and what we are exposed to. The American Dream is typically classified as a nice, cozy house...look a little deeper and you realize that the only way to achieve that is to earn money...and it doesn't matter how you do it, it's for your dream.
Quoteimplies everything made in this country is crap
I, for one, don't mean to imply that although it is the perception. Several years ago Chevy sold Toyota Corolla's re-badged as Chevy Nova's. The cars came off the same assembly line, used the same parts etc., only the badging was different. The Nova was rated by it's owners as one of the least reliable new cars while the Corolla was the rated by it's owners as the most reliable.
That's a tough image problem for GM to deal with. I've got my own bone to pick with them. I had a '95 Saturn that I bought new. Great car. It had nearly 250,000 miles on it when a tree fell on it last spring. But a couple years ago GM pulled the service books from the local Chevy dealership and told them they could no longer do any work of any kind on Saturn's. Ford's, Toyota's, Honda's et. al. they could work on, but not Saturn. At the same time they were integrating Saturn back into the GM brand, reducing the autonomy that made Saturn different. It would share platforms with Saab and other GM brands..... in short be the same as the others. So in spite of the fact that I was a happy owner for 13 years it will be a snowy day in Hades before I buy another.
I've owned Ford's, a Chevy, Dodge's, Jeep, Toyota's, Subaru's, VW's, a Fiat, a Honda, a Volvo, the Saturn, a Geo (Suzuki) Tracker and a Sunbeam Alpine. The Volvo, Jeep, and Honda were the most troublesome. The Vw's, Fiat & Sunbeam were ok and all the rest gave me great service.
Nothing personal Jochen....you made a choice
I respect that.
sparks
Quote from: John C on December 11, 2008, 12:36:42 AM
Several years ago Chevy sold Toyota Corolla's re-badged as Chevy Nova's. The cars came off the same assembly line, used the same parts etc., only the badging was different.
Ditto with the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe. The Pontiac's name is the worst thing about it IMO.
Quote from: sparks on December 10, 2008, 11:56:25 PM
Where were you made ?
Canada. Moved here in '85. I don't plan on moving again.
If we made anything here and made it ourselves with American craftsmen, it would be cool and maybe good, but we couldn't afford it.
American companies have long sought after the proper design to get a car to just make it past warranty. I call it, engineered failure. If they screw up and design a transmission that lasts too long, you can bet it will go back to the drawing board. Example... Torque converter or transmission in all American diesel trucks -- designed to just make it past warranty if Mamma drives the truck to the store only or a farmer just runs to the field with a spade in the back. Put it to serious work - you better buy the better one made by an American aftermarket company because that is the only way you can make it do real trucks work.
This is only one of thousands of parts. The extra profit goes into the union rep's or CEO's pocket - to be stolen and bailed out later. No such thing as a real work ethic from them or their companies.
Yes -- I'm a Dodge man and yes, I have spent lots of money to make my truck into the rugged pulling beast the factory would do well to emulate instead of create to slowly disintegrate... a part at a time. Yes -- it is inevitable, but they could do better.
When I was head mechanic at Dodge the shop manager said there are two ways to buy a new one. All at once or a piece at a time. The piece at a time is much more costly and they make most of their profit off of that --- the service bay is at your service.... we will gladly hold your wallet. :(
Quote from: sparks on December 10, 2008, 11:56:25 PM
I was wondering when this topic pic would end up at CP.
It nearly implies everything made in this country is crap.
Where were you made ?
Think about that.
sparks
I was made in Va Sparks. It's a family tradition that goes back to the 1600's.
But you might be right.
Aside from the one and two man shops, what is made entirely in America that's known for it's outstanding quality? WE can skip auto makers. And we can skip assembled in America from overseas parts.
Perhaps showing what we are making properly will change my mind ...and there are a few.
I'll start.
These are made right here in the south, good quality and a reasonable price. I own one and had to look some to find one that was made in the USA.
(http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/images/685-0010%20lg.jpg)
What else?
Salute PeterNap ;)
A spokeshave,....is that what is perhaps?
sparks
Something made here:
[urlhttp://www.mccauley.textron.com/][/url]
//http://www.mccauley.textron.com/
There are lot of products made in this country......top notch goodies
Why are we being put down????
Quote from: peternap on December 11, 2008, 02:46:07 AM
Aside from the one and two man shops, what is made entirely in America that's known for it's outstanding quality? WE can skip auto makers. And we can skip assembled in America from overseas parts.
(http://carharttimages.carhartt.com//is/image/Carhartt/R02BRN?$LG$)
(http://www.redwingshoes.com/images/boots/large/877.jpg)
Quote from: r8ingbull on December 11, 2008, 08:19:22 AM
Quote from: peternap on December 11, 2008, 02:46:07 AM
Aside from the one and two man shops, what is made entirely in America that's known for it's outstanding quality? WE can skip auto makers. And we can skip assembled in America from overseas parts.
(http://carharttimages.carhartt.com//is/image/Carhartt/R02BRN?$LG$)
(http://www.redwingshoes.com/images/boots/large/877.jpg)
Carhart makes good stuff. I can make a pait of pants last a year...which is a record.
UNFORTUNATELY.....they aren't made entirely in the US. Some of it is made in Mexico and Europe.
Redwing is a good one.
While they have warehouses all over the world, the leather is tanned here and the boots are made in US factories.
I can't speak to cars, as I have never owned an automobile ;D. However, I do own a large retail operation. We stock over 600,000 line items across a wide variety of specialties. I am convinced that location of origin makes no difference on quality. We break down a product group into 3 categories. I am going to use tools as an example as I think most of us can relate to the name brands...
Category 1 is the budget, ultra low priced (or what we call garbage, disposable) group. In hand tools this would be IIT, GRIP, MIT, Some house brands. This is the land of $1.19 ratchets, $1.49 hammers, etc...
Category 2 is the mid-range, higher quality, higher value group. Tools like Craftsman, ACE, etc...These items are built to last longer, but they still have to reach a price point to get onto the retailers shelves and not cause sticker shock
Category 3 is the Hobbiest or Tradesman level group. These are the tools that real pro's use. Here we are talking about $100 hammers, $60 ratchets, etc...This stuff is made to last forever, parts are available to fix it, warranties, and a sales force to back it up.
Any company can make good quality, but they have to want to. It has to fit the long term goals of the business. I think the biggest reason for the perception of a lack of quality in american made goods is that the business managers don't want to make a quality product. It is easier to buy a "name" bring in cheap garbage level items, and sell them as mid-range (cat 2) items. We've seen this recently with Stanley Tools, and Craftsman seems to be going this way too.
The real trick is to ignore the brand name and find the item that presents the best price to quality, or value. Everyone has hobbies that they like the best stuff for, and everyone buys cheap junk when it fits the price/quality they are looking for. The problem comes when someone doesn't realize you can't get a $40 quality tape measure for $4.99. It doesn't matter who made it, or where..
My hobby is paintball, I own a $2500 paintball gun and wouldn't think of shooting a $300 paintball gun. At the same time I would buy a $300 shotgun, even though that probably won't get much of a shotgun...
Quote from: peternap on December 11, 2008, 09:01:19 AM
Carhart makes good stuff. I can make a pait of pants last a year...which is a record.
UNFORTUNATELY.....they aren't made entirely in the US. Some of it is made in Mexico and Europe.
Redwing is a good one.
While they have warehouses all over the world, the leather is tanned here and the boots are made in US factories.
Redwing has a large import business now too. However both of those items I pictured are exclusively US made by union workers. Actually, both of those companies have "core" products made in company owned factories here in the USA. A lot of the new products come from overseas. IF a company wants to be a full line, full service vendor, some items will have to be imported. We don't have the secondary resources in the US to make everything here.
Quote from: sparks on December 11, 2008, 03:48:49 AM
There are lot of products made in this country......top notch goodies
Why are we being put down????
Sparks, your missing my point. The American people and workers aren't being put down, the American Corporate world is.
Rather than manufacturing ourselves, we are outsourcing everything and if it's made here, it's out of outsourced parts. You used Mccauley as an example and I can't really tell. They are so tied up with Textron products, it's hard to tell exactly what their manufacturing chain is.....
We've moved to quality of what the products are. My point is that the quality (With a few exceptions) is not due to that tried and true American workmanship, it's because of some manufacturing plant elsewhere.
All this is done in the name of profit. The profit goes into the pockets of Top executives and preferred shareholders (Many of whom are NOT American) but the company suffers because it does not go back into the company.
Peternap is absolutely correct. In many cases the Toyota's, Honda's, Mini Cooper's etc that we think of as being well made are being produced in factories in America by American workers.
Those companies have been able to navigate the American business landscape and the shrinking three have not. The corporate hierarchy has made mistake after mistake. They have also been saddled with having to deal with the entrenched union structure and the Unions have played hardball ending with the companies being in a very tight corner.
Is some cases they had to produce the cars they did. They couldn't manufacture a domestic Civic or Corolla that could compete price wise. The SUV and truck market were profitable when people were buying, and they tried to outsource the econocars. The foreign brands have been more successful at establishing separate identities for their nameplates. Honda & Acura are perceived as different vehicles, ditto VW & Audi......, but a Crown Victoria is really no different than a Marquis. GM and Chrysler have been the masters of this for generations. Anybody remember DeSoto? They went the way of the Dodo bird ~40 years ago. The marketplace didn't need a rebadged Dodge back then and they didn't learn a thing. Chevy-Pontiac-Oldsmobile-Buick and in some cases Cadillac were all birds of a feather.
Ford USA spent the past 2 to 3 decades shifting manufacturing out of the USA. During the same time Honda and Toyota built plants to build cars and car components in the USA. Look where they have ended up.
...and I remember DeSoto. Studebaker. Packard. Checker. Hudson. AMC. Nash. And those are just the defunct American brand that come to mind as having been lost during my lifetime. That's not including later demises like Eagle, Olds and Plymouth. Nor does it include the hundreds of marques that disappeared in the 20's, 30's and forties.
I had a '53 DeSoto. It was old & rusty when it was given to me but it ran. It think it was a tank in a previous life ::)