the neighbor had this tree cut down, it was felled into my yard,
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan2120107.jpg)
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan2120109.jpg)
Appears bark beetles killed it.
My plan is to have it band sawn into 1/4 sawn lumber for furniture , some 6/4 some 5/4 and 4/4 stock. Maybe some 8/4 depending on what works best.
Using a log to B/F calculator using the small end of the log for the numbers it appears to be 300 B/F of lumber.
I have two guys locally that have band saw mills that I'll be calling.
Any advice , Glenn , Whitlock , others??
I'll be stickering it and keeping the weather off it once it's cut.
Good thing you took down the fence first. ;D
Almost always you will get some discoloration from where the stickers are but if it is left in the rough saw state most will disappear once it is planned down.
White pine isn't a wood that would benefit from Q-sawing IMO. The first pic is an great shot showing the growth habit. They jump 2-4' and throw out a spray of branches in early summer each year. I'f you truly quartersaw radially you'll be running up the branches making boards with spike knots almost every time rather than across at least the majority exposing smaller, stronger, round knots. There are a few species and many applications where quartersawing isn't necessarily the best option.
I like white pine, built my shop out of it, structurally its a dog though. Because of the "rising sun" clusters of knots it takes a relatively large timber to equal many other species even other conifers that branch differently. If has very moderate shrinkage numbers and dries easily, doesn't move much, just lays there. just sticker it well and get plenty of airflow through a covered pile. If it dries slowly or is stickered with wet stickers it can develop brown stain (coffee stain) an enzyme reaction, or bluestain (sapstain). Bluestain doesn't happen in winter though. Carves well too.
If you have access to a metal detector I'd sweep the butt log well, urban logs often have hardware, $$.
Okay, for us un-enlightened folk; what is "stickering"?
Stacking freshly cut lumber with 'sticks' between the boards so it will dry evenly.
(http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base_images/bah/stickering_wood_01.jpg)
How'd they get the top off so cleanly? I would not have wanted to be the guy with the saw on that.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on January 23, 2010, 10:35:03 PM
#1: How'd they get the top off so cleanly?
#2: I would not have wanted to be the guy with the saw on that.
#1: I assume he just had the rope up at the then top and climbed down , cut a wedge and had his ground guys pull on the rope as he cut it free.
#2: I was in my shop , when I came out, that first piece was on the ground. I'd think the tree wiggled some and he just hung on. He was a late 40 year old, maybe young 50 I'd guess. He seemed comfortable in his gear on the tree.
Thanks DonP I may reconsider the 1/4 sawn part. The sawyer coming by tomorrow to check out the access and give me a ball park on cost. I've never seen 1/4 sawn W. Pine , could be thats why, the knots thing. I've never had lumber custom sawn before so a lot of what I basing things on is what little I've read in the likes of FWW / FHB etc.
One of the reasons for this thread was to gain more info. Where is that Glenn anyway ???
I dug out some old latex paint tonight that I'll slather on the log ends to slow the moisture coming out the end grain.
Sorry, PEG.... I was actually working and since it is so sporadic any more I have to take it when I can get it.
I could add that dry stickers are preferred to keep mold from growing between the stickers and boards, and that boards left together for even a week or so when wet will get mold growing between the boards fast.
Kind of looks like last months peanut butter sandwiches you forgot in the lunch box. ... [waiting]
Glenn just thinks he was working But he was under the comand of my new HAARP unit that I built :)
While I was running it my key board blew up heh So I'm a little late in posting 8)
White pine with that big of knots is probly only good for 8/4 or beams. The knots in the butt end will might be lose you will find them as the log is cut.Growing in someones back yard it got a lot of water so I'm assuming that the grain is not tight.
After you stack and sticker it put a lot of weight on the top of the pile so your top boards don't walk off as they dry. Take the stack a part once or twice and re sticker it this will tell you a lot. Also put the stack in the shade or in a building not in the sun make sure it gets a lot of air (don't tarp the sides just the top)
1/4 sawn white fur ??? can't say that I ever "saw" any :-\
But I do know with that big of knots you will be sawing though them long ways so it IMHO is not a good canadate for 1/4 sawing.
It would make one nice big big big picknick bench if I had it.
Have fun,W
Whitty it's White Pine not fur.
Seems these logs are pretty much worthless. >:(
???
Have you seen something? It might not be brazilian rosewood but white pine is far from worthless, I reach into my pile real often, in fact I'm eyeing a few more canidates to replenish my stock. We built a heavy timber porch addition this summer with 6x8 white pine beams and exposed roof deck. I'm working up a bid for a set of white pine heavy timber trusses over an 18' wide greatroom for a house next summer. For timber work big dimensions are very often part of the goal. Its low shrinkage numbers shine in that application, an oak frame, while stronger, does a whole lot of moving by comparison. That said, I saw every dimension of white pine and use all of them.
I'm not a sawyer, but with the clusters of knots as far apart as they appear to be, on the order of 4'+ judging by the photo, wouldn't the lumber between the knots be long enough and perfectly good for many furniture projects? Plus, if the knots cure tight, they can add character to the wood and enhance the appearance of the finished piece. If the price is right, it's worth cutting into lumber, IMO FWIW.
white fur ???"Opps typo" . It is not worthless. It's just not for making the fine stuff like you build. Or maybe it is???
Would make good stairs or framing lumber perfect for beams.
I'm sure you will make something nice out of it.
After you cut it up you will know.It might have a pretty grain pattern.
I wouldn't turn it into firewood :(
And as Don said there will probly be hardware in it not good on blades but you could get lucky.
It will be tuff stuff after it is dry.
White pine around these parts insn't as stable as Don has posted. But a lot better than some.
I'm looking forward to seeing your magic from this wood 8)
You will know what to do with it after you take a cut or two out of it.
Peg if it wasn't so far and you wanted to get rid of them I would surely take them off your hands. Being in an area of white pine it is a common material for about everything. Shoot my log stringer are white pine. 16" X 8" but sturdy even with the knots.
In this area the going rate of sawing is about $200-$250 @1,000 bf. But with only that particular one I am sure that the price would be higher on that BF quanity if they had to move the saw to your property to saw. Maybe take it to them and the cost would be less.
On an added note whether it is right/wrong my stringers turned out great in regards to checking. The logs were split in half. I had dried them with the sawn edge down for about 9 months. I can't really say how they survived the checking only that some of the moisture escaped via the sawn edge rather than working it's way out the end grain is the only explanation. I just wished I would have coounted the growth rings before using. How did I miss that. d*
Oh yes and the "moisture meter". ??? Never did locate one so I took a little bit of chance. I would give it a heave/hoe every once in a while and it seemed like the time was right.
Far from worthless, PEG, it would make great rustic furniture. Maybe some Mission style stuff. I know you will come up with something great out of it.
Personally I like the naughty stuff... oops... I mean knotty stuff. It adds a lot of character to the pieces. When dry, if straight, it could make some of your great craftsman furniture too. :)
Whitlock, the clouds are thinning today... you can turn off the HAARP now. [waiting]
John, 2 reasons for the lack of checking, one is "so far"... the wood is probably still drying and shrinking.
#2, you relieved much of the drying stress by ripping the log. Usually the flat surfaces of the ripped log dry with a crown across the once flat face. Had it remained in the round those same drying stresses that form the crown would force the log to form a check. Something to think about is that tangential shrinkage is roughly double radial shrinkage for most wood. This thin slice shows the drying stress. Imagine if it couldn't relieve that stress by popping up into the third dimension. If I push down and flatten it, it would form a check.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/dr6x6drysection.jpg)
I usually open it up and chase the grade around the log, rolling it to take the highest grade boards off finally leaving a boxed heart timber. I'f I'm not looking for big timbers I'll take it down to a 6x6 or even a 4x4.
The US Forest Products Labs "Air Drying of Lumber" is here;
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr117.pdf
The raised panel closet doors and trim in our spare bedroom are from white pine off the property here as is the timber entry porch. As I look around I use lots of it, the barn has a good bit in it as well.
Had these in the photobucket, the top one is some q-sawn ewp.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/daisys.jpg)
Don thanks for the site. I did have a friend that manages a large lumber company facility and he offered to run them through his dry kiln but would almost guarentee they would check given their size under the same conditions as the rest of the wood 5/4 -8/4 material. So I opted to just air-dry. Yes them might eventually check some but when I mortised for the steps it seemed fairly dry when I worked with them. As in other things I guess "time will tell".
Is the carving your handy work?
Well the guys coming next Sat. to cut it up , should be under $200.00. We'll flat saw it , I'll paint the log ends today mainly so I don't have to do a bunch of board ends . I'll stack and sticker it out of the rain and sun.
He thinks it will yield some nice boards.
The smallest log we'll box the heart and cut as large a beam as it will yield. I can always re-saw it later if I choose to.
Photo's at eleven , well maybe 10:45 on the 30th! ;)
His blades are $25.00 a pop IF we hit any metal we'll cut it out for best yield and keep cutting.
[cool] I like putting trees to use that would have otherwise been burned or ground. I've bought the guts to a small dehumidification kiln and have toyed with the idea of mouning a kiln on a trailer. After the site is cleared call in a bandmill, pull the kiln to the jobsite and by cabinet and trim time the wood oughta be ready. The doc on woodweb says that studies have shown that the log should be endcoated within 3 days or don't bother, the end checking has begun. I don't bother with my pines, end checking is not a problem with ours. $25 is a bargain and a reason I like bandmills, my circle blade is closer to $1500. I run cheaper but a wreck could be very costly
John one of the other challanges of drying large timbers is moisture gradient. If the outside of a board or timber dries too fast that outer shell is rapidly shrinking around a still saturated and swollen core. Kiln schedules for thinner boards are more aggressive and faster than a large timber can handle without risking turning it into a pile of toothpicks. A kerf ripped down what will be a hidden face encourages a check to form on that face. I guess when drying you are trying to drive down the center of a road, the ditch on the one side is drying too fast and checking, the ditch on the other is drying too slow and getting stains, mold or even rot. For some woods like my white pine the road is pretty broad. For some woods like my oaks the goatpath between those two ditches is narrow and steep. There is nothing wrong with slow air drying, it is usually the culprit if there are stains and also contributes to cupping.
Don another local mill ( where I got my 1X T&G) made his own kiln. A 40' box van and an outdoor wood furnace. Does the trick.
Quote from: PEG688 on January 24, 2010, 06:10:32 PM
Well the guys coming next Sat. to cut it up , should be under $200.00. We'll flat saw it , I'll paint the log ends today mainly so I don't have to do a bunch of board ends . I'll stack and sticker it out of the rain and sun.
He thinks it will yield some nice boards.
The smallest log we'll box the heart and cut as large a beam as it will yield. I can always re-saw it later if I choose to.
Photo's at eleven , well maybe 10:45 on the 30th! ;)
His blades are $25.00 a pop IF we hit any metal we'll cut it out for best yield and keep cutting.
You might be able to find someone with a metal detector - coin detector etc to check them quick. Maybe not a problem.
I like flat cutting, PEG. It gives a good and interesting variety of board patterns. For my purposes it doesn't much matter.
For my purposes an adz would work, eh? :)
I asked the sawyer he said they only detect about 4 " deep and with his blades only at $25.00 a pop IF we hit any thing we'll just chop out the hunk or drop off the end of the log which ever works best.
He wasn't that concerned from what I gathered.
The other thing is in the 27 years or so I've lived here nothings been attached to the tree and it's not right on the property line so fencing MTL never been hung on it.
The guy who owned the house when we moved here was a stickler for order and not the type of guy who'd nail stuff to a tree. So a LOT NOT Like you Glenn :-X rofl
Thanks, to all hands, for the advice and tips :) [cool]
How did you know that I have incorporated every tree that I could to my cattle fence. Seems it is the thing to do in this area as all old fences are grown halfway through an oak tree etc. [ouch]
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 24, 2010, 11:07:26 PM
How did you know that I have incorporated every tree that I could to my cattle fence. Seems it is the thing to do in this area as all old fences are grown halfway through an oak tree etc. [ouch]
Just a hunch. ;)
[rofl2]
Yup, I think some of your ancestors landed here Glenn.Usually fencewire isn't too bad, a friend hit a grown over Tpost once. I think my worst so far was some walnuts from the HVAC guy. He said hed been there 25 years and never drove a nail in a tree. Sure enough a few years deeper in I hit the cluster of nails and a hank of poly clothesline, only time I've thrown a tooth and its shank. Old time wisdom around here was that fruit and nut trees would bear better if stressed, this involved nails and beating, I sweep them well and almost always find metal in the lower log.
I forgot to answer before John, yes the chip carving is mine. It's a very old and easy form of ornamentation. I've seen the insides of peasant dwellings in eastern Europe that have practically no wooden surface untouched, long winters. I was playing with a compass and knife, I've toyed with the thought of making some of those rosettes as corner blocks for window and door trim. I've used the same technique around light blocks in ceilings and on door head trims. Another name for eastern white pine is "pumpkin pine", I've heard people say that it is because of the color of the heartwood and some say it is because it carves as easily as a pumpkin.
PEG, don't know if you have it but this is a good link at the FPL, the menu of their wood species technical sheets;
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/techmenu.html
This is Western white pine;
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/htmlDocs/pinusmonticola.html
I've got a little bit of white pine I milled up. Here is a picture of some of it...
(https://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/Pine_Cone/Milled_White_Pine.jpg)
The problem here in the wet PNW is getting it dry while keeping it well ventilated. The blue stain fungus is introduced by the same group of bark beetles that helped to kill the tree, so your wood is already inoculated with the stain. The stain only effects sapwood. Drying the wood quickly will reduce how much stain you get.
If I had the chance to redo my milling project I would have left about a foot of space below the stacks - I used some cinderblocks under the pile to start it but only used 1-block high. I would use 2-blocks if I did it over. I am assuming you have an indoor space for stacking the wood but I did not and the moisture coming up into my drying area from the ground appears to be considerable. I just finished planing some boards and the lowest two layers were noticably wetter that boards from higher up in the stack.
I you can you might consider running a fan to push air though the stack of boards for the first week or two when they are the wettest. We made the mistake of covering the pile in the Costco-carports seen in the picture, and while we opened the top ends some, when we came back after the first week it was obvious we did not have enough ventilation and we had lots of mold. Our boards have ended up drying very nicely with almost no checking and only minor cupping.
We used fresh-cut boards milled at the same time as everything else for stickers. If you look at the photo below you can see where the sticker was in the 6x12 timber directly above the door. The cabin walls and the boards and battens on the gable ends are all wood from the stacks in the first picture. You can see that the amount of blue stain varies. We also had some minor wood-boring beetle activity in the larger timber about 1/8" directly under the stickers. I guess it kept those areas wetter and gave the beetles a chance to develop a bore more wood.
(https://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/Pine_Cone/PorchLight.jpg)
Good luck with your millilng project. Given your skills I'm sure you can turn the wood into some amazing stuff!
Nice stack of cants and boards, Pine Cone. I have a bunch of sugar Pine to do that with but I have to re-level my mill first. Whitlock says he got some pretty crooked edged boards from the last batch.
I sometimes have friendly boards. They wave at you. [waiting]
Could be "thick or thin". [waiting]
Absolutely. :)
When the blade gets a bit dull they get interesting.
Didn't hit any metal , got about 300 BF of lumber out of it.
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan3020105.jpg)
Top log netted this ,
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan3020104.jpg)
The big log is now the wider boards, I see a have a couple flipped end for end,
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan3020108.jpg)
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Jan30201012.jpg)
$150.00 USD , I gave him a $10.00 tip.
I see you left a couple large planks (bark intact). What were your intentions?
Now we wait..... :D :D
Quote from: Redoverfarm on January 30, 2010, 04:03:52 PM
I see you left a couple large planks (bark intact). What were your intentions?
I ripped the edges off those with the skilsaw, IIRC they where the first two "boards" he ripped off the first log so it was sort of him "setting up" his equipment.
I only kept one live edge chunk I think I'll make a quick garden bench out of it.
I knew you would get some good looking boards.... now to see what you will come up with [noidea'
I tallied the board foot count this AM , right at 377 BF. So about .42 cents USD.
They look like as nice or better than the local "knotty Pine" I get at the lumber yard, and I have wider, thicker boards to play with.
I'd definitely do it again.
He also offered to re-sawn any stock I wanted at no charge if I brought the planks to him.
And he said if I came across shorter logs or pieces that had promise he'd saw those at his place pretty cheap. So a cut off log section here or there that I'd normally pass up , now is back in play.
I know that you will not be able to bring yourself down to my level of Rustic, PEG, but I will not hold that against you. rofl
Everyone has thier own style , it's all good. You fill your needs, or wants.
How's your weather been Glenn?
Peg,
Where is this mill located, What county?
If I could get his contact info and he's near, I may contact him in the future from time to time.
Quote from: diyfrank on February 01, 2010, 08:45:07 AM
Peg,
Where is this mill located, What county?
If I could get his contact info and he's near, I may contact him in the future from time to time.
He's here on Whidbey, his card says he'll work in Island and Skagit counties.
www.sawmillservice.com : Steve Gschwend 360-679-1320 or 360-320-0453 cell. He'll come to your site or you can haul into his place.
G/L PEG
Thanks, I'm in mt Vernon.
At times I have good access to short logs. (under 24')
We haven't cleared any land in the last year & a half though. We've been developing land that Developers have started and then let sit unfinished.
Quote from: PEG688 on January 31, 2010, 12:57:56 PM
Everyone has thier own style , it's all good. You fill your needs, or wants.
How's your weather been Glenn?
We have gone from rain and more rain to a bit of sun and clouds and got more rain coming.
I just got another 2 to 3 week job but it is all inside and the rain can't bother me so likely during that time we will get unscheduled sunshine. [ouch]
Got my racks built today , the frames came from work so no cost involved except fasteners to screw them to the shop wall with.
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Feb720103.jpg)
Now we wait, up until this point it's been work. d* So Mtn. D was partly right two weeks ago ::) when he said "Now we wait". [chainsaw] [shocked] :-X
I was waiting for you to do some work, so we could all wait some more. ;D
Nice looking boards!
I can't tell if you painted the ends with anything. I assume you did, but if you are planing on doing more of this I like the wax-based Anchor Seal http://www.loghomestore.com/finish-wood-preservative.shtml#anchor-seal (http://www.loghomestore.com/finish-wood-preservative.shtml#anchor-seal) I have also used a latex-based finish but I didn't like it as well.
Can't wait to see what you turn them into.
Peg you build anything with them yet???
Quote from: Whitlock on July 18, 2010, 01:43:21 AM
Peg you build anything with them yet???
No, not yet. A bit early for the thicker stuff, hasn't been a year yet, so I'm sure they need more time to dry out. Besides I've been extremely busy at "real work", we're closing in on the big house attempting to get it "live-able" so the owners can spend a month or so on the Channel.
The lumber looks good still , no staining like some on WBF said would happen , last time I stuck to with the moisture meter it was @ 10% , but thats pretty much just the surface, I did run one plank thru the planer and it cleaned up nicely , but I could tell from the shavings that there's still a bit of inner moisture in the stock.
I'm in no rush, and I think I've decided it's gonna become a couch for the living room , maybe some time in 2011.
Thanks for asking, it nice to know some one else has interest.
We'll be waiting to see the art work, PEG.