Saw some interesting comments on the recent PEX thread and thought that I would start this thread.
Clearly, having some foresight when initially building goes a long way. Sort of an ounce of prevention thing, right? Probably the best thing that I did was put in a hot water loop back to my tank when the house was built. But I didn't install my recirc pump right away, and if you are plumbing in a loop, you can expect to wait for your hot water somewhere. Furthest from my tank was my master shower. It would take 8 gallons to get it warmed up. I was dumping a lot of water into my septic. That's fixed.
In retrospect, I wish I had plumbed a gray water system in. Even without use for irrigation, keeping excess water out of the septic is a good thing. A separate drain field for gray would have been nice to have for the whole house. I do irrigate the lawn and vegetable garden and fruit trees, so this would have been a very good thing to have.
With regards to some retrofit stuff, some looks good. Some not so good.
The under the sink recirc pumps push hot water back down the cold water lines. You are either waiting for hot or cold water. Take your pick.
One of the coolest ideas I've seen is an under the sink reservoir that pumps water into your toilet tank. You get to re-use your sink water when it is available.
BTW... lint from you washing machine is hell on your leach field. Put in a lint filter for the drain water.
-f-
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 16, 2008, 11:22:05 AM
Saw some interesting comments on the recent PEX thread and thought that I would start this thread.
One of the coolest ideas I've seen is an under the sink reservoir that pumps water into your toilet tank. You get to re-use your sink water when it is available.
BTW... lint from you washing machine is hell on your leach field. Put in a lint filter for the drain water.
-f-
Never heard of that before. Neat idea. Although the majority of the conservations ideas are great but it becomes comes difficult with older homes but would be fantastic for new construction.
Just did a google... check this out! Very innovative:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/wash_your_hands.php
Another good idea:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/04/athena_contolla_1.php
Both are very low on the remodel intensity scale.
more on the Aqus System: http://www.watersavertech.com/AQUS-Diagram.html
-f-
I looked at the Athena once and IIRC I came away with the idea it was good for fitting to an older 3.5 GPF toilet as it's low setting gave a 1.5 Gal flush.
Plus my personal problem was our toilet has a fancy side flush lever and that unit only adapts to front lever. And it's a 1.6 anyways.
The Caroma toilets deserve a good looking at as well. The dual flush idea is super.
A quick glance at the toilet MaP Ratings (http://www.cuwcc.org/MapTesting.lasso) (Maximum Performance flush) has them listed among the highest rated for efficiency. Efficiency is measured in how many grams of a control substance the toilets flush through in a single flush.
This is a very handy method to compare toilets rather than relying on looks, price, color, or manufacturers sometimes self-serving claims. It's a large file size download, although there are some smaller files that target specific types of toilets.
Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system. I pump the water out of the ground and put it back into the ground, just a big circle. The dirt between the 2 systems filters it before getting used again. Not sure I want to fill my tolet tank up with dirty kitchen sink water? I have been on septic systems all my life and never had one back up I had control over how it was installed. The 3 homes I have had systems put in were never pumped in over 10 years and the home I live in now it has been 12 plus years. When I sold one I thought it was funny when the pumper guy said well the tank is full you were lucky. They required the tank pumped when the home was sold. He had no problem pumping the solids off the top and I watched. The tank had lots of fluids in it allowing more room for solids after 10 years of use. It realy depends on how well the system is installed and what you put down it to ruin a good composting system. Never had a back up in the drain feild but I have allways had large drain feilds. Most were at least 300 ft long with reserve areas of that much more if needed. I dislike the low gal tolits but had to put them in my new home. After inspection I removed the container in the tank to make it like a old tolet but it still had the required stamps on the outside to be passed. If I had a slow well I might have leftthem that way but I get over 28 GPM and it has never slowed down. I don't waste water but I do use it. I don't wash my vehicals very often as it is not nessasary to drive unless you can't see out the windows. I live on a dirt road so it gets dirty again on the way out or in. They have not been washed in 5 months due to winter. Mark
Quote from: Willy on March 16, 2008, 01:23:55 PM
Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system.
I agree to a point, Mark. As PEG is fond of saying;
It Depends.
It depends where you are located. Well static levels are falling all over the west and other parts of the country. Not all the pumped water returns directly to the ground water supply. Here in my part of the NM desert, much of the pumped water ends up being lost to evaporation, used in growing crops, etc. When the recorded ground water levels all show declines over decades of use, that has to be taken note of. Other areas of the country/world don't have such an obvious problem looming.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 16, 2008, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: Willy on March 16, 2008, 01:23:55 PM
Water Conservation is great for city water people but I have a well and a septic system.
I agree to a point, Mark. As PEG is fond of saying; It Depends.
It depends where you are located. Well static levels are falling all over the west and other parts of the country. Not all the pumped water returns directly to the ground water supply. Here in my part of the NM desert, much of the pumped water ends up being lost to evaporation, used in growing crops, etc. When the recorded ground water levels all show declines over decades of use, that has to be taken note of. Other areas of the country/world don't have such an obvious problem looming.
Where I see waste is golf courses in the middle of the desert all green with grass and small lakes with fountains spread around for the effect! Swiming pools in places that use water from low rivers flows in other states. We need to grow food to eat but pools, fountains, golf courses, water rides, water displays in Lost Wages ect are something we realy don't need. I had a pool in our back yard as a kid. We wasted more water in one swim then the whole day of flushing tolets would do. We are a wastefull socity in things we do but it seems the little things are what is talked about needing changed. Look at Al Gore and his homes waste telling use how to live! The tolet thing is not much of a correction in water waste. Say you flush even 25 times a day your looking at 25 gals or so of a saving yet it takes way more than that to wash off the patio. car, water the lawn, fill the pool ect. I laugh when I think of the building inspector police wanting to see my tolet tank to make sure I am not wasting water from my well when the city has sprinklers running in town over flowing into the street running down the gutters in a rain storm! Your right "IT DEPENDS" but heck why waste time on a tolet law when there are things out there that waste 1,000s of gallons more and there not getting rid of waste there decorating or playing in it. AWWW I feel better now. Mark
I'll probably have to haul water to my cabin. If i can save a gallon, it is one less I have to carry and load into the storage tank.
Conservation is probably less important to city types. Their water gets recycled by the utility folks. Comes in via pipe, out via pipe.
Those of us who live in the desert probably are a bit more cautious about aquifer levels than most others. (Probably in this case sort of means It Depends)
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 16, 2008, 04:17:46 PM
I'll probably have to haul water to my cabin. If i can save a gallon, it is one less I have to carry and load into the storage tank.
Conservation is probably less important to city types. Their water gets recycled by the utility folks. Comes in via pipe, out via pipe.
Those of us who live in the desert probably are a bit more cautious about aquifer levels than most others. (Probably in this case sort of means It Depends)
Now if you need to save water at a cabin because you have to haul it or have a slow well that is different. I lived off of 90 gals a day from a 390 ft drilled well and one 250 gal tank of water hauled a week with a 24+ mile drive. I learned to save water and conserve it. I had 2 horses, a cow, 2 pigs, several dogs, home based cookie buisness, small lawn and washed our own landry off of it. I learned you can take a long shower and use that water to fill the washer for the first cycle, dishes got washed in one side and all rinced at the same time, no running fausets. Flush the tolet only when realy needed, and don't wash your hands each time you touch something. You realy don't need 2 showers a day and the car will live with out a bath to. You also fill a pitcher with water and put it in the reffer to get a cold drink from insted of running the sink to get it cold. The list goes on and on but you can use less water. Glad I don't have to do this now but I still feel bad when I run the sink fauset to long. Mark
NM_Shooter could you not go with a cistern for everything but drinking. Although I did live in a house that had cistern to drink. That was before bottled water was around. What little drinking water you had to have would be very little in comparison to washing, showers, flushing and the like. I guess you could even put in two systems to draw off of different types of store water.
Our local city golf course uses water from the waste water treatment plant. Better than just pouring it into river if you need to have a golf course in the first place.
The fountains at the Bellagio (LasVegas, NV... there's a LV in NM as well. No comparison rofl) are a marvel to see, but you have to wonder about how much evaporates.
Water trivia... Public water fountains are extremely hard to find in Las Vegas. They want to sell you something to drink. I can't tell you how exactly to find it, but there is one in the Paris Las Vegas (Eiffel Tower) area. It's in an obscure place. Most folks would never see it.
I am hoping to do a cistern. I also may have access to a spring that is uphill from my property. But for the short term I am going to have 40 gallon poly tank for washing, and we'll just bring in drinking water as needed. 5 Gallons usually lasts us close to a week. Thank God for beer to ease the water requirements!
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 16, 2008, 05:15:00 PM
...access to a spring that is uphill...
Hmmmm! Source of water for cooking mash and source of water for cooling the output of a still. :o
;D ;D
Also good place for keeping beer cool.
Shhhhh...Don don't give away my new business plans.
I've visited two remote locations (good 4x4 required) in UT (yes UT. Not everyone there was/is Mormon.) where folks had stills back during prohibition. Interesting history. We were lucky enough to have descendants of the family show us around.
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 16, 2008, 11:22:05 AM
... It would take 8 gallons to get it warmed up. I was dumping a lot of water into my septic.
Shooter,
I have a similar situation with a 1,000 gallon poly tank and shallow well jet pump in my cabin. I haul water in a 65 gallon poly tank on my truck to fill the 1,000 gallon tank. Getting hot water to sinks wastes a lot of water. I am thinking about putting an angle valve at the side of the sink cabinets that, when opened, will route water back to the poly tank via a separate 1/2" CPVC line (other supply lines from the pump are copper). After 20-30 seconds, I will close the angle valve, open the standard sink faucet, and I should have very hot water at the sink with little or no waste. Does anyone see a problem with this type set-up ? Thanks.
Hello PA, I think that is pretty much the same thing as a home recirc pump, and a good idea! I envy your cistern. (No Arkansas puns please). Does your shallow well pump sit in the poly tank? How do you get the water into the tank in your truck?
Don... when I was a kid in Arkansas, a buddy of mine and I found a still back in the woods. (As opposed to the ones you find in the middle of the highway). It was made out of an old refrigerator. The mash tub was in the top, and it was still warm. We didn't stick around.
Shooter,
I ran a hose bibb to the inside of my garage at home and use a garden hose (the hose is only used for this) to fill the tank (takes about 15 minutes). I then use another hose at the cabin to drain the water from the truck tank to the cabin tank (takes about 30 minutes). Essentially I have "city water" now at the cabin. The shallow well pump sits on a stand I built above the tank (about 5' high), with a 1 1/4" PVC suction line that goes from the pump down to the bottom of the tank (foot valve there).
Sounds like your recirculating valve should work fine to me, PA. No need for all those fancy motors and such.
Hey PA, that valve is perfect! It's an ideal way to save water for anyone on a closed cistern system. Ya' already have the pump, so add a little pipe and you're all set.
Great idea.
Thanks for the encouragement gentlemen. Since Glenn, Don, et al gave this concept a go, I will begin the changes shortly. Like Glenn said, I like to keep things simple !
To do that valve thing I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly. I use utility ball valces as quick shut offs at the laundry and one under the sink base for the dishwasher supply. Turn the laundry off with a couple quick flips of the handles in between uses.
Let us know how you eventually set this up. Photos? Thanks. :)
Quote from: MountainDon on March 17, 2008, 06:47:51 PM
To do that valve thing I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly. I use utility ball valces as quick shut offs at the laundry and one under the sink base for the dishwasher supply. Turn the laundry off with a couple quick flips of the handles in between uses.
Let us know how you eventually set this up. Photos? Thanks. :)
Here is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.
http://www.plumbingworld.com/kitz_water_valves.html
I allmost put a return line to my well casing to allow water to circulate to keep it from freezing but changed my mind. I figured if I needed to trickle it the power must be off and no way would one return line take care of all my fausets. If the power was off it would take a generator to work the return line to the well. Instead I just made sure I could drain the whole system if needed and ran all my plumbing in inside walls. Outside walls pipes are easy to freeze in if temps drop real low. I also installed lots of pipes to the valves, spickets ect off a manifold so I could isolate a froozen pipe and not loose the complete system. I also ran 2 pipes to the house one is a empty spare all ready plumbed in to the manifold. Mark
Although this is not really "on topic" but had been mentioned in this thread concerning toilets. When I went to Lowes on Saturday I strolled through the discounted racks in the walkways. There was what I would consider a "idoit proof" toilet flange 3"/4". I had never seen these before but I could grasp the design. The bolting flange was seperate in design from the glue up flange. In essence you could make a mistake with the position of the flange when you glued the down pipe to it and not be a problem. Once the down pipe was glued the toilet bolting flange rotated to gain the proper position for the toilet. It is a real pain when the flange is glued 10 deg off with the bolt pattern. I needed some and picked up two for the cabin at 1/3 off the regular price. Now why couldn't I have thought about that?
I like that style.
QuoteHere is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.
Grand assortment of valves, there. However, I should have defined "nice" in my statement...
"I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly."Nice, as in something that will blend favorably with more or less conventional bath and kitchen faucets and shower controls. Wife approved. ;D
Quote from: MountainDon on March 17, 2008, 11:16:42 PM
QuoteHere is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.
Grand assortment of valves, there. However, I should have defined "nice" in my statement...
"I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly."
Nice, as in something that will blend favorably with more or less conventional bath and kitchen faucets and shower controls. Wife approved. ;D
OK here is a nice one made by American Standard but you could use a cheaper brand of shower control. Just block off the tub opening or get one just for a shower head. Then have the feed go in the opening that would go to the head and the hot and cold would be your 3 way outlets. You can get some nice handles and leave off the chrome trim ring. Mark
http://www.hechinger.com/hardware/tools/818770163-american-standard-3-way-wall-rough-diverter-valves-1660-300.html
Sometimes I underestimate (overestimate) my wife. :-[
We're going to go with a regular ball valve with lever handle for the recirculation line...
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/ballvalve.jpg)
That's a beauty, Don --- you saw our hose bib on Sassy's slipper tub. :)
I did not notice that the first time around. Thanks to the efficient SMF search engine I had another look, enlarged the image and, yep that's a designer hose bib!
One of my alternate designs was to use an electric (12V) sprinkler valve with a push button actuated 555 timer.(dabbling in electronics is another hobby) .... but then K.I.S.S smacked me in the face and I decided less is more and broached the idea of a simple ball valve.... and that went over well.
I have a S/S ball valve I may use for the kitchen sink recirc valve. Blends in well with the chrome faucet and S/S sink.
We are going to be using an almost new looking bar sink as the kitchen sink; the one and only cabin sink actually. ;D (don't tell code enforcement ;D)
I'd never tell.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 18, 2008, 09:08:17 PM
Sometimes I underestimate (overestimate) my wife. :-[
We're going to go with a regular ball valve with lever handle for the recirculation line...
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends2/ballvalve.jpg)
On your water system will you have a storage tank, pump and bladder tank to pressure with? I was wondering how you were going to recirculate the water? If there is no open tank storage system you would need a pump to move the water back into the hot water heater since it is all under the same pressure. I know you know this but mentioned it for others that were thinking of recirculating there hot water. Another way to do this is to insulate the hot water lines real well including the return line to the hot water heater. Then install a Hydronic Water Pump designed for the purpose and circulate the water real slowly. Then just circulate it right back to the hot water tank when you need to or put it on a timer for times you up and would need hot water. This would work great if you did not have a cistrin tank to let the water go to with out using a pump. Mark
PA-Builder mentioned he used a shallow well pump to supply water from his large poly cistern tank of trucked in city water. NM_Shooter and I will be in a similar situation with hauling water to cistern tanks of smaller size.
Let me note that there is no plan for laundry facilities. This is a recreational cabin, not a permanent home. Even though we will spend most of the summer up in the mountains there are things that will take us back to the city every 1 - 2 weeks.
In my case I will have a outside poly tank of somewhere around 200 gallons. Water for that will be hauled by trailer mounted water tank. There will also be an inside tank of smaller size. I have a transfer pump to pump water from outside to inside. That's a manual job, no automation planned at this point. A shared or private well may be in the future.
I will be using a 24 VDC RV type pressure pump that will draw water from the inside tank to pressurize the cabin system. Most small RV's do not use a bladder tank at all; it's just another thing that has to be drained/winterized when freezing weather is encountered. Theory states that is hard on the pump. However in the 12 years we've owned it I've never replaced the pump. The previous owner (the original) told me he replaced the pump the year before he sold it to us, and that was because the body froze and split. The cabin water supply system will be very simple; the inside storage tank, a 6 gallon RV spark ignition propane water heater, a kitchen sink, a shower. The water heater will likely only be fired when we want a shower, as that's what we're used to in the RV. After years of RV'ing we find it better to warm hand washing and dish washing water in a pot/kettle on the propane stove.
When you're working in such a water conserving mode we hate to waste any water. We've been running water into a pot or two before showers. We use that later for one thing or another. We see the cabin as a big RV with the slideout permanently extended. No need to change our water use mode. The idea of one extra valve at point of use with a pipe running back to the storage tank will do away with the pots of water sitting around till a need arises for it. The pressure pump is the pump that will push the water back to the storage tank.
Frank may do something similar in the future. We both appreciate PA-Builder's idea as it beats water waste or using pots.
The low volume hydronic type pump would be out of the plans because of the low volume of electricity available in a solar self generated system. Every watt is as precious as water.
Just a thought but if you put in a steel tank with a one way flow valve from the feed side you could pressureize the tank with air from a little 12 vdc air pump. Charge up the tank and you would be good for as many gals the tank would hold. Not sure if it would take less power but it would give you more volume (GPM) when it is needed than a RV pump. Use the RV Pump to charge the tank up also is another way. No bladder and a clean water heater tank will hold a lot of water for storage. I use to get them for next to nothing from big hardware stores cause the outside was dented up and the tank was perfict inside. A electric one gives you all the nessasary openings to work from and easy to drain later. You could stash the tank in a attic spot ect out of site. One thing on the plastic tanks is to build a box for them to keep the sunlight from the tank and very little alge will grow in them. You can also bury the tank under ground too and put a access opening to it along with a fill pipe easy to get to by vehical. Mark
Don,
Is that 24v DC RV pump similar to the Shurflo or Flojet (4406) (< $100) 12 v RV pumps ? I was thinking of getting one of those 12v RV pumps as a backup pump if my AC power goes off, or if the shallow well pump system broke down while staying at the cabin. Would that 12v RV pump pull water up 5' from my tank, then provide adequate pressure/volume through 1/2" copper for a shower, sink, etc. (nothing running at the same time) ? Thanks.
My RV has a Flojet 4406, 12 VDC. :) The spec sheet at the back of the manual says its good up to a 2.4 meter lift, approx 7.5 feet.
It's made in 12 or 24 VDC and 115 VAC models. The 24 VDC is harder to find but that's what I want as the cabin batteries will be series/paralleled for a 24 VDC system. The 24 VDC pump will save having to tap the battery bank for 12 VDC. The alternate would be a 24 VDC to 12 VDC converter, but that's just more complications.
3.2 GPM (US) and 22 to 35 PSI. IIRC it has 1/2 pipe fittings.
Thanks Don. I always prefer to trust someone who has actually used something instead of relying on the manufacturer's spec sheet and claims.
Here is PA's angle recirculating valve. He sent me a pix.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1020180.jpg)
How's it work, PA? Happy with it?
What alternatives are there for water in an area where there are 5 months of winter temps (Wyoming) and having to deal with freezing lines?
Of course, there is a well. But have to bury and/or insulate underground piping into house from well.
What about an above-ground cistern that would hold a few hundred gallons? Insulating pipe coming into cabin?
Thanks for your input.
Hal
Wouldn't an above ground cistern also freeze and break?
With five months of winter, there's no doubt it would freeze to my thinking.
I believe that's why back home in Canada the local water utility stored water in underground resevoirs. Nothing was located above ground.
I have been doing a lot of research on the EarthShip construction and thier cisterns are underground. (Taos NM) about 8800 elevation.
http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 (http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)