No shed?!?!

[Daddymem]

Here's a great Zoning gone wrong story.  We own vacant land that we are in the middle of planning to construct a home on.  In the meantime, we are beginning the cleanout of our current cottage and need a place to store boxes.  A friend of ours lopped off a rear porch from their garage in a manner that would allow someone else to either reinstall it elsewhere or reconfigure it into a shed or leanto.  The Town requires building permits for sheds over 8x8 and this porch was 10x20.  So we asked the building inspector what is involved in pulling a permit to construct a shed (so we knew what level of plans he would need from us).  Guess what? No house on the land means no shed can be constructed.  So we explained (ok stretched the truth ) that we wanted to construct a construction shed to keep our supplies and tools secure while we were in construction.  Again a no go.  We then asked if we pulled a building permit for a house, could we then pull a permit to construct a shed and complete that first.  This time a no go AND a veiled threat that if he goes by and sees a shed constructed he will slap us with fines.  Crazy or what?  I own the land, I should be able to construct a shed on it!  No wonder this area has such a housing crisis and the lower income people are moving away!  They have us sooo tied down with stupid regulations and permit fees, only the fortunate and rich can build anything here.  We've been miserable in this tiny cottage for 7 years waiting to construct because it is sooo financially tough to do that with a one income family, meanwhile colonial castle after McMansion is constructed for the six figure incomes...right where a perfectly fine 3-bedroom ranch was just torn down (without even an offer for someone to relocate to their own land I might add).  It is sickening.  I love this Town with the coastal feel (you really can taste the salt in the air), but I don't see how my children could possibly grow up and be able to stay here.  Massachusetts is the only state to show a negative population, somebody better start doing something soon or nobody will be left to do the manual labor that the rich won't do.  There are already towns around here where the police and fire department staff can't afford to live in the very towns that the serve and protect...things cannot continue thjs way.  Sorry for the rant, I just had to get it off my chest; you see as a civil engineer in the private sector I am asked (no, told) day after day to design the boring colonial box 100-foot-on center subdivisions (do you want that complete with topiary willow?) and "big box" stores with football field expanses of soul sucking asphalt all of which take no regard to their surroundings, only attention to how fat their wallets grow when I know in my heart there is a better way.  Then along comes some stupid rule like this and I explode! (and write really long run on sentences) :-/

Ahhhh I feel better now, anyone need a septic system designed?  

[glenn-k]

Look at what we have allowed to be done to ourselves.

Being the kind of guy that I am , I think I would take that back porch and modify it into several 7'11"x 7'11" sheds - No permit required.  

[Daddymem]

Yeah, that is a no go as well, I already thought of that one.

[glenn-k]

You could try the constitutional No tresspassing sign directed at the bldg dept-etc but then you just get into a great big p---ing contest that probably won't get anywhere.  Are you in an HOA area or just upscale?

Don't know if there is anything of help here. They really make  me mad though.

http://www.landrights.com/
or here
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/index.html
or here
http://www.prfamerica.org/index.html

Now you got me going-- someone stop me please

A clip from our local computer news person- she started doing this after our local paper bought out the local free paper and shut it down - stops competition- radical seniors up here!!!!

THE GRIBUNE GRIZETTE
VOLUME 2, NUMBER 13
MARCH 29, 2005
 
 
 
EDITORIAL BY AN ANONYMOUS CONTRIBUTOR, WHO IS ANONYMOUS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE TO ARGUE ABOUT THINGS.
 
How did we manage to allow this to be done to us in only 100 years?

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone fed eral, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer registration tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

COMMENTS:

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What the hell happened???

End of clip.

Daddymem- You're in the right state-- How about putting together another Boston Tea Party?

[ebass]

Yup!

That's the Massachusetts I grew up in and am now seriously thinkin' about leavin'...........sorry to say it, chief... but the whole state (codes, costs) is like what you've described...........and it wasn't always this way..........have you thought about selling your land and moving out of Massachusetts?

Can anyone pass along info on other, less restrictive, more receptive states?..... Thank you

[Daddymem]

Heard about this at all?
http://www.freestateproject.org/news/media_archive/0176.php

But seriously, a friend of mine left my company to move to North Carolina.  He took a paycut of about $1 an hour.  He left so he and his soon to be wife could buy a house...something they didn't think they could do here.  We looked up housing costs in his area and get a palace for $150,000 (garage, 2000 sf, community pool).  Our dinky cottage will probably sell for $180,000...what the heck am I doing here still?!?!?!

I would sell the land and leave dodge, but the land is right next to my parent's and we have two yun'ungs, and I love this location.  I have the beach, I have the woods, I have the city....all in one location.

[Freeholdfarm]

But you don't have freedom.  

What are those other things worth, without freedom?

That said, Massachusetts isn't the only state with regulations like that, so look before you leap.

Kathleen

[jraabe]

An interesting initiative was recently passed in Oregon (one of the states with "model" no growth laws). It basically allows land owners to bring suit against zoning and building departments that have taken away value from their property that it had when they bought it. Either the agency can pay them for the imposed restrictions or allow them to build (grandfather) the projects they could do when they purchased the land.

No county has yet paid out any dollars.

This does not help recent purchasers of property nor would it solve the narrow and nasty rulings you are up against.

However, it may point a new direction for where the wind is blowing and perhaps wake up some bureaucrats to the fact that people are getting worked up enough to start look for heads to stick on top of pikes.

This inititive passed with 61% approval in liberal and green OR. Washington and other states are expecting to see similar inititives in the next voting cycle.

[Daddymem]

It is a really difficult topic here due to the cranberry bog farmers.  The bog farmers own huge-mongous tracts of land here going back waaaaay before zoning.  They could parcel up their land and sell off as-of-right lots that would bury the Town(s) if they wanted.  One of the owners has the largest continuous piece of developeable land in the northeast.  That company is working on a project so large that it encompasses three separate towns and involves house lots in the thousands.  The point is you want to protect the rights of the little guy but you in turn may be protecting the rights of the hack and slash developers and I have yet to work for a developer who chose the right thing to do over the thing that makes the most money.

[John Raabe]

I agree. I have always been conflicted about property rights. How much is enough and does the process become so opaque and complex that only the person with the biggest team of lawyers gets to do anything?

Not an easy issue.

As I understand the OR law (prior to the initiative I talk about), the equivalent to your bog owners could not even build a 2nd house (or rebuild an existing structure) on farmland that was protected by zoning. That seems excessive restriction and probably accounts for the success of the initiative.

[Daddymem]

I believe the way it works here is land that is taxed currently as a farm that is proposed to be changed to commercial or residential has to be offered to the Town to purchase first and if refused then back taxes on the land is paid as if it were always commercial or residential land.  Of course it is sooo complicated you would have to ask a lawyer to get it absolutely right.  But when lots go for over $100,000 empty, it is worth it for the owner to pay the back taxes and most towns can't afford to purchase the land.

[Amanda_931]

In Nashville, you could put up a portable building--those steel or vinyl things that come in a box, possibly even what came in on the Mennonites' trucks, without any problems.  As long as it wasn't fastened to the ground (with anything other than cable and earth augers).

I've heard of this in other parts of the country as well--isn't it why one of the tiny house guys made his the way he did?

How about where you are?

(not particularly boggy cranberries should grow this far south, by the way.)

How about there?

[Daddymem]

Well we are in a hurrican prone area so anything with an occupancy permit has to be fastened down with a foundation.  They don't even consider allowing mobile homes to be constructed as a single family home, you have to put one of those in a mobile home park.  The mobile home issue is one where advocates for affordable housing are hitting the state hard.  The state doesn't consider them affordable housing!?!
o....k....
Cranberries need peat and lots of sand and water.  They mostly grow here in Southern New England down to New Jersey and out in Wisconsin.  There are bush cranberries elsewhere but those are nothing like the vine cranberries that grow in bogs here.
Well our meeting did not go so well.  Come to find out, banks will not float mortgages on anything falling short of a complete (sellable) home.  They specify I have a finished driveway surface, finished drywall, flooring cannot be the plywood finished, all cabinets have to be built, a patch of grass has to be planted....the list goes on, forcing me to pay someone to do all the things I wanted to finish over time myself.  Why isn't it affordable in Mass?!?! Perhaps stupid things like this coupled with strict building codes?  When all was said and done, it was going to cost over $200,000 for the universal cottage and I own the land!  Guess we gotta 'round the up the hosses and figure what we are gonna do.

[John Raabe]

As I get closer to my dotage and see my parents getting ready to leave the planet and my kids off on their own, I start thinking about moving and building something smaller and simpler in a new place.

Many of the most interesting places I'm thinking about are not in the U.S.

How about a summer place in Canada and a winter place in Mexico? or Belize? (my Spanish is loco). I think the Canada place would probably have to be an existing place as much of Canada has the same problems with taxes and building restrictions as the U.S.

Anybody doing any searching outside the country?

[Daddymem]

Just the topic I was thinking about...http://blogs.booklocker.com/travel/archives/002465.html

[Amanda_931]

nice blog/site

[David Berg]

If the property is next to your parents, why not put the shed on their land and make it moveable so you can move it when you get your house built.
Or, call it an Ice Fishing shanty, put a license on it and park it on your property. You could do that here in Minnesota.

[7up]

You Could Build An Underground Room.Out Of Sight,Out Of Mind.It Would Not Be An Eyesore And You Would Not Have To Worry About It Blowing Down Or Away.You Would Just Have To Worry About Where To Put The Dirt.


Tony

[keyholefarmhouse(Guest)]

Home search out of country.  

Not as easy as it sounds.  

Things you'll miss:  Family, Friends, Hospitals, Technology, Bill of Rights, etc.

But try Spain or Italy.  Spain is more affordable, but either are two of the more likely places that you'll actually last for any long term period.

Some canadians I know think anyone is nuts for wanting to go there.  Then said you need about 1/2 to 1 mil. deposited in their banks to get citizenship.

Howard

[Amanda_931]

Permaculture magazine is full of stories of people homesteading/establishing intentional communities, mostly in Europe, but a few in Africa.  Spain is popular.  

Hospitals?  Standard American Health Care?  We might not miss them at all.  Although some German friends who mostly live in Spain do have to go back to Germany for the national health care.  It may not apply to either visitors or even long term residents.

[tjm73]

Here's a great Zoning gone wrong story.  We own vacant land that we are in the middle of planning to construct a home on.  In the meantime, we are beginning the cleanout of our current cottage and need a place to store boxes.  A friend of ours lopped off a rear porch from their garage in a manner that would allow someone else to either reinstall it elsewhere or reconfigure it into a shed or leanto.  The Town requires building permits for sheds over 8x8 and this porch was 10x20.  So we asked the building inspector what is involved in pulling a permit to construct a shed (so we knew what level of plans he would need from us).  Guess what? No house on the land means no shed can be constructed.  So we explained (ok stretched the truth ) that we wanted to construct a construction shed to keep our supplies and tools secure while we were in construction.  Again a no go.  We then asked if we pulled a building permit for a house, could we then pull a permit to construct a shed and complete that first.  This time a no go AND a veiled threat that if he goes by and sees a shed constructed he will slap us with fines.  Crazy or what?  

Cut it down to fit on a frame with axles.  Tow it in, set it on a suitible "temporary" foundation and remove the wheels.  You now have a "shed".  No permit needed.  You can put the wheels back on and move it at any time.  It's not a perminent structure.  F that guy and build your home then make the "shed" permanent.

[Amanda_931]

Or (next time?) a rental storage trailer.  It is decidedly temporary, not real expensive, and looks a lot worse than any shed would.

[Daddymem]

None of which would have worked.  But amazingly, since we got our permit and began, he softened.  We ended up putting up a Big Max shed without issue.  BI came out for an inspection and was real interested in it...especially since it beats their maximum shed size without a permit.  They really are nice sheds, they come with two skylights and windows in the doors.  They go together quick, include the floor, and run around $500.  My parent's have had one for several years and it shows little to no wear and tear, simply hose it off every once in a while.

[deertracks]

Daddymem...
Do you have a link to the shed you built??
I just read the beginning of this "shed" forum and found it quite interesting. We live on the West Coast in cranberry bog country. Western Washington.... we have gotten out of hand with septic permits here, but the big money is just beginning to arrive.... one reason we are in the process of relocating to the west side of the state.
deertracks

[Daddymem]

Search for Big Max Shed on Home Depot website.  The pictures don't match the model we got, but that is it.  We bought ours at the B&M down the street.  Here is the manufacturer website: Rubbermaid Big Max  It looks like ours is a cross between the Ultra and normal models, we have no rear door but the rest of the Ultra features we have.