letting in ledgers for floor joist.

Started by PEG688, April 10, 2006, 10:08:42 PM

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peg_688


John_C

My county only recently adopted the IRBC so I'm very slowly becoming acquainted with it.  One things comes to mind about the code prescribed notches for the ledgers.  Since it's an "International" code I'd bet all the measurements were metric and we are simply dealing with inconsistent rounding off in converting to inches.    Maybe Jonsey, or someone else, has the measurements in cm.  The depth of the notches in cm. may well be identical to the common thickness of metric dimension lumber.

When I built my existing house the was no building department and no code.  Now we have an alphabet soup of  dept.'s  to go through.    IMHO each is no more than sanctioned extortion.  I'd best stop or Glenn will have to move this to rants.   I'll do that later.


glenn-k

I'm trying to mellow out ---

That looks like a wonderful excuse, John and may even be convincing if you act like you know with conviction, when you explain it to the inspector. :)

John_C

That wasn't my intent but I wouldn't hold my breath that the inspector would find a 1/8" discrepancy.

My Florida stilt house had a poured concrete roof.  The concrete sub scheduled the steel inspection with three days lead time expecting his crew would have the steel in place by then.  Of course it rained steadily for two days.  When the inspector arrived he got about ten feet off the ground on a shaky ladder, came back down and signed off on the steel inspection while standing next to the pile of rebar in the front yard.  I was there, on the roof, doing some electrical rough in at the time and he never spoke to me.  


glenn-k

I had an inspector sign off a basement without walking down into it to check anything.  I'm not complaining, mind you.  Permit fees ($21000) and taxes were paid already.  That's the main thing.

Dang it, John.  There I go again. :-/


John_C

Glenn,
Just curious how things work out there.  Many of John's plans and quite a few of ,for example, Ross Chapin's have very steep stairs or Jefferson stairs.  Do people actually get approval for those?  We've gone from nothing a few years ago to thousands of pages of code and three re-writes in two years.  We had "all new" regulations go into effect Mar. 1, and nobody seems to know much except it really "at the discretion of the inspector".  

I've asked two inspectors and the building dept office about post & pier foundations and I've gotten three different answers.  Stairs, rainwater collection, cisterns, euro washer dryer combos that don't require a vent (and run on 120v).....   Can't get answers but they'll be quick to red tag it and require a fee, penalty, additional permit, once the job is underway.

I could get worked up over it, but i've got to go work on my taxes.  :-[

builderboy

Trying to work with the tax act is like trying to understand the logic of building code. Good Luck!

glenn-k

Probably about the same thing as you find there.  Code stairways should pass but non-code is more likely going to be discretionary here also and vary from place to place.  Hopefully they will tell you at plan check.  

I was in an gold rush era  building yesterday that had recently been sold and improvements had been made but the antique stove that was in use did not have code required clearances.  Obviously some things are ignored at the inspectors discretion.

glenn-k



MountainDon

#59
QuoteHere is the ledger thread. :)
Glenn, you did a "MtnDon" and forgot to paste in the link..,     :'(

glenn-k

and I thought I was being cute by not saying bump...

No-- I meant that this is it -- the one we are on -- I think I linked it over there though. :)

PEG688

Bump . maybe this should be a "stickie"  what ya think Glenn ?  
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

glenn kangiser

This is a fairly common problem.  I can stick it for a while.  See how response is.    

My only reluctance is having to page down past the stickies on the first page -- if it gets too bad I can drop some of the slower stickies. :)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

PEG688

Ya,  I know,  it's a balance thing , what ever works .

I generally can find it when I have to . I just search my back posts. It doesn't come up if I use "letting in ledgers"  which maybe I should change the title to as I never remember to include "for floor joist." in my search .
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .


PEG688

 6400 + views  [cool] This must be helping someone some where :)

  Only 65 posts  ??? Must be to clear. :o
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

pericles

Could you help me with terminology?  The ledger-let-in is the two inch cut out from the 2x6 framings, correct?  What precisely is "balloon" framing?  (A Google search revealed contradictory results.)  And what is a "Kneeling Wall"?

-Jack
Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

MountainDon

A let-in for the ledger is the "notch" cut to recess the ledger board into the stud. For a 2x6 it is not an actual 2 inches deep as 2x6's are really 1.5x5.5 inches. The surface of the ledger should be flush with the stud face, not as hurriedly drawn.  d*



It's called balloon because as a rule, you build the entire shell (balloon) before getting the intermediate floors in place. If this was platform type instead of balloon, that short loft wall would be a separate piece sitting (nailed) on top of the loft floor material. As shown it makes for a wall that will resist outward forces better. Each has it's own advantages/disadvantages.

I hope your studs are truer than my illustration.  :D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

pericles

In your illustration the loft joist rests on top of the ledger; could it instead be secured directly to the ledger with hanging brackets?

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu
Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

MountainDon

No problem with that. I illustrated it as resting on top primarily as that eliminates the hangers which probably cost 0.75 to a dollar each. Hangers will work.

One advantage to hangers is that their use will lower the loft floor level, affording greater max headroom up there. And max headroom is in short supply on a narrow cabin. Everything's a trade off.

Are you going to finish the lower part of the joists as some kind of a normal ceiling? Or use heavier planking (like 2x6 T&G decking) over top of the joists and leave the more rustic look of the open joists?  The joists on top of the ledgers gives a more pleasing appearance (no visible hardware) to my eye. Many solutions to the same problem.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

MikeT

For what it's worth: 

On my place, instead of brackets or letting in a ledger, I have my beams resting on posts that sit in the stud bays and are secured to the studs.  For the posts, I used tripled up 2x4s.  Doubled up 2x6's would have worked too as would 4x6 posts.  I just had the extra 2x4s around and used them for this purpose.

My structural engineer friend and I talked about the three options and he felt that this was the strongest.  And from my perspective, it was the easiest to construct.

mt


pericles

On the same issue of names - MikeT, are your posts "jack shims?" 

MountainDon, I really like the look of the rafters and planned to leave them open to see the joists.  If we did that, and rested the joists on top of the ledger, wouldn't that require cut-outs (name?) to go between the joists so as to cover up the insulation between studs? 

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu
Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

MikeT

Perilces-  I am not familiar with the term "Jack shims"  I don't know jack, I guess.

All I know is that on one side of my house where I have a large beam spanning my kitchen bumpout, the joists/beams (that make up the loft)  that run perpendicular to that beam are hung on that side by HUC610 brackets, then are supported mid beam by the 2x6 bathroom wall and then finally are supported on the other side by these posts that I fashioned out of spare 2x4's that are then set inside the stud bays.

It seems to have worked so far for me-- I will leave the beams exposed as well as the 2x6 T&G flooring/ceiling above.

mt

MountainDon

Quote from: pericles on April 09, 2008, 09:25:18 AM
MountainDon, I really like the look of the rafters and planned to leave them open to see the joists.  If we did that, and rested the joists on top of the ledger, wouldn't that require cut-outs (name?) to go between the joists so as to cover up the insulation between studs?

When you say that you...
Quote...like the look of the rafters and planned to leave them open to see the joists
it's a little confusing.

The rafters hold up the roof sheathing. Joists hold up floors and ceilings.

So, (1) are you saying you like the appearance of having the main floor ceiling joists open to view from the downstairs? That's what I think you mean. (2) Not yet discussed is the roof. Do you also want the roof rafters exposed for the same visual effect? Let's leave that aside for the moment and return to (1).

You're right, if the ceiling joists are set on top of the ledgers, and if the joists are left open to view from below there will have to be some sort of filler between the joists, to cover the insulation in that area. What will the final interior walls be once the insulation is installed?

On the other hand, if you use the hangers and leave the joists open to view from below you have the galvanized brackets in plain view as well. To me, these...
,,,are meant to be hidden. But that's my outlook. I'd rather deal with the other problem than trying to disguise/hide the hangers or have them in plain view.

The above are my views and not the only way to attach the ceiling joists.   :D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

pericles

Sorry - this is exactly why I need to be more careful about names.  I don't want to yell "watch out for that rafter!" and have a joist fall on my wife's head while she's wondering what I mean.

What I MEANT is that I'd like to have the loft joists exposed, and the loft floor boards exposed from below.  I think actually that I don't mind the hanging brackets visible, but that's an aesthetic question I suppose, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

In terms of what we're using for the walls:

Probably we'd like to insulate LAST.  We can get the shell up, put in the loft, and have fun with the cabin this summer.  We won't use it much in the winter anyway, so no reason to spend the time or money insulating now.  I spent nine summers in a cabin with no insulation and exposed wall studs, and loved every one of them.

Eventually we'd like to insulate though, and after that, we'll throw vertical 1x4s from the floor to maybe 3.5 feet, and OSB above that, with some sort of molding between the two.  I'd like to maybe prime (and prime and prime) and paint the OSB white and stain and the 1x4s and molding. 

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu
Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

PEG688


Good to see this thread active again  :)

Prec , you should think about going to the beam 4 x option for the ceiling joist with 2x6 T&G car decking for the loft flooring.

I haven't followed all the other things you've kicked around so maybe you have looked at that. The let in ledger , or the post under each beam option would be better than the hanger , keeping hangers to a min. is generally the best option. Squeaks , mis-aligned parts , cost etc , some times hangers are the best / only option , but IF they can be eliminated , IMO , your better off for a variety of reasons.     
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .