CountryPlans Forum

for those waiting on me to post what the bid was for the PV folks who were gonna
design my system, i'm waiting too, as i was stood up today

well!!

i haven't been stood up in YEARS

LOL

so, i thought, maby i could do it myself

wasnt' sure if i should start a new topic, or add to this one

i've got a complete list of all appliances and their watt usage

except for these tiny RV lights, i can't find anything on their watt usage, but they are so tiny

and i can't find any info in our owners manual about the water pump's usage either

but other than that, i've got all my info

and also usage per day, how many hours i'm using certain items

whats my next step?

i also went to that great site, parts on sale dot com

i like their prices!

but i'm so confussed about which kit is right for us

they have both RV kits, and small cabin kits, and we were thinking that we might as well get
a cabin kit vs their RV kits

thanks in advance for any help

tesa

Tesa, do you have the RV lights right now?  If so, you can plug them into a "Kill-a-Watt" meter and find out how much power they use. 

(http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/supermediastore_2036_119278256)
http://www.supermediastore.com/kilwateldet-bulk-package.html

-- Pritch

1. the RV lights are likely 12 VDC?   ???  Incandescent or FL ?   If they are 12 VDC, the Kill-A-Watt won't work.



2. Can you look the pump manufacturer up online and get the pump details?  voltage and watts or amps are required.


Without those you can still run one of the solar equipment calculators and see what they come up with without the two above things.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6059.msg80681#msg80681 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6059.msg80681#msg80681)

with husbands help, i was able to discover the tiny lights draw 18 watts each and we have a total of 21

i wonder if i could find CF or LED lights that would fit, i'll poke around the net, as i'm
sure that would save some watts

also, daniel was able to assertain that the waterpump draws 84 watts

right now, we don't use it, as we're hooked up to city water, but once on the land we will

my list is 99% complete, i'm about to dig out the singer, and find out how much that will draw
and then i'm done

man, those watts start to add up, but the nice thing, i think, is that the rv is basically dc already, with
just the "add on" type things we run being a/c

is that how i size my inverter? i should add up all the a/c pulls?

tesa

ow, that system worksheet was very confussing  ???

i think i'm gonna take a break

i'll be back on sunday evening, as tomorrow, we'll work the property, and i promiss to bring the camera
and post some pic's

tesa

Well, try doing this...

Divide all the loads into two groups, the 12 VDC and the 120 VAC items.

You are going to do the calculations for a 24 hour period.

Take the 12 VDC group first.
For each item multiply the watts X the number of hours use.
The result is the watt/hours of power for that item.
Add up all the total watt/hours for the 12 VDC items.

Then take the 120 VAC group.
For each item multiply the watts X the number of hours use.
The result is the watt/hours of power for that item.
Add up all the total watt/hours for the 120 VAC items.

Am I right in thinking there are no 240 VAC loads? No electric cook stoves, clothes dryers, for example. That would be very bad news for a PV system.

Then report back here with the total watt/hours for the 12 VDC and the 120 VAC items.

We also need to know where the house is/would be located to gauge the probable available solar energy.

thanks so much don, for helping, i really appreciate it!

i did divide the load into dc/ac

we have no 240, stove is propane, no clothes dryer

i don't have my notes handy, i can post the spec's later,

we're only home for a bit, takin' care of some business, then its back to the
property for a few hours

i did a wee search for finding these tiny RV lights using CF, so far, i'm not finding any
that match

but it was just a quick look see

this dang rv has so many lights, some are singles, which draw 18 watts each, but we have many
that are "doubles" meaning that two lights come on, which will be 36 watts

i've been keeping track of how many hours we use some of these lights, like the bathroom lights
and the big light over the kitchen sink both doubles

so far, its not much, considering, the time it takes to use the restroom, and wash dishes in the
evening

i'll continue to monitor this

trying to design the system based on the max load of every light in the place being on at one
time would be bad, someting like 380 watts if every light was on at the same time

what are the odds??

should i really be doing that

after watching my family for a few days, it seems like maby one or two are on at a time, maby
three, and the max was 4 at one time after dark

our biggest d/c draw seems to be the fridge, at 14 watts, and it runs on an 8-hour cycle, but
we're looking at getting a huge propane tank, and running that puppy off propane

i'm thinking that might be cheaper than the watts

but i could be wrong


dang it, husband is telling me he's gonna unplug the computer if i don't get off and get
goin'

LOL

teas

If your RV lights are similar to ours, they either;
(a) use a bayonet bulb similar to older auto tail and turn signal bulbs, OR
(b) use a short straight fluorescent tube, one or two to a fixture.

I have never found a satisfactory LED replacement for type [a], and I'm 100% positive there are no CFL's that fit that socket.
(b) type FL's are fine. Most are made by thinlite.

You can get standard edison base 12 and 24 VDC CFL's that fit the normal household lamp socket. They do cost $$ though.



For hours of use keep track of the daily hours, always round fractions up and add a little as we are now into the days getting longer.



What kind of fridge is that? The usual AC/Propane/DC RV fridge? If so propane is going to be more economical than electricity you make yourself. An exception would to that would be if it used an actual high efficiency motor/compressor like the Danfoss. Those are not common and are $$.

ok, so i should try the "thinlight" brand of bulbs?
i was thinking they would be expensive, but so is solar power, so i'm wondering if the
trade off is worth it?

i'll poke around and see what i can find

we found a replacement bulb at an auto-zone, so i'm guessing it is an auto type buld

but some of them are different, they have two prongs

regarding loads

heres my d/c loading info

21 lights, (which i'm researching as stated above)

the exhaust fan for the oven is 2.5 amps, which using a conversion on the web, it looks like
30 watts

fridge, is a norcold typical rv thing, i think, as another friend with an RV has the exact same fridge

we have an LP gas detector hard wired to the RV wich draws 120 milli-amps

each bunk has a little individual fan which draws 10 watts each (2 bunks)(they are d/c)

the water pump is a shurflow at 84 watts

the furnace draws 91 watts plus propane usage, but we're considering running that off the generator,
as our winters aren't too bad, and it might be ok ( i'm wearing shorts today, hehe)

our a/c loads are

computer at 70 watts which gets high usage, maby 4 hours a day, maby a bit more

we have a task light which has 25 watt bulb, but i'm thinking i could find a CF light to replace that one

our TV/DVD takes 80 watts and its on a power strip

we have a fan in the bedroom on a/c at 6 watts

and another fan we run in the summer, a table top type fan at 30 watts

we have a few things that are really used only a few times a month, like our pillow top air mattress
needs a "boost" every few weeks, but it takes like 2 minutes to use that

daniel has a wind up alarm clock, so no watts there, but i sitll haven't looked at my sewing maching

also, since were out in the boonies, i'm sure we'll have to get satellite for net service, so i'm not
sure how many watts that will take

thats it!

compared to a house, a small load, so i'd like to think

no coffee pot, no toaster, i'm gonna give up the microwave, no blender

and just so you don't think i'm a complete idiot ;) the thing on the worksheet that really threw me for a loop, was
the battery info

i've got no idea where to start there

daniel had a friend at an office near him give him like 9 batteries he said we could use, but when
he looked them up on the net, they werent' deep cell, we called the manufacture, and he said we
could use them, but after a few charges, you'll notice they don't hold a charge like they used to,
and were really only good for emergency type power

but they retail for like 200 bucks each, and they are brand new, so we're sittin' on like 1K worth
of batteries we cant use

bummer

tesa

The thinlites look like this...

(http://solarseller.com/2af92c9f0.jpg)

They use small, 8" and longer, for different model lights, long FL tubes. They don't fit anyhting else. We have a few of them in our RV, installed as replacements for the old bulb style bulb light units.

I'm going to digest the balance of that post in a while.   :)

Quote from: tesa on February 01, 2009, 06:12:47 PM

no coffee pot, no toaster, i'm gonna give up the microwave, no blender

and just so you don't think i'm a complete idiot ;) the thing on the worksheet that really threw me for a loop, was the battery info

i've got no idea where to start there

I could not give up the microwave and we didn't.  ;D

When you get down to the batteries just leave the fields as they are. You're using this one???
http://www.wagonmaker.com/script_calculator.html (http://www.wagonmaker.com/script_calculator.html)  It's preset for L-16 batteries like Glenn uses, with 3 (cloudy, little sun) days of reserve and a depth of discharge (DoD) of 40% (25% would be ideal, better for the batteries) and typical other data.

If you want to see what golf cart batteries would do just change the "amp hour capacity" field to 210.

Be sure to set the system voltage to 12 VDC (first box in worksheet 1; default value is 24.)

Another way you could go about calculating your usage is get the 12 month KWH average from your electric bill and then calculate the deltas once you are off grid.   Meaning add on stuff like well pump but subtract anything you will no longer use. 

If your bill doesn't have this info on it, you could probably call your utility company and get it.

well, the RV park where we are actually does keep track of usage, as they give us a 500KW credit
a month, so anything over that is charged, we haven't gotten a bill since september due mostly,
i'm sure to not running the a/c

we're actually going to make some big changes that wouldn't be reflected now, like once we
get out to the land, i'm gonna give up the microwave, and the toaster

i'm still tryin' to work out all the juicy details on watt usage, i sort of forgot about little things
like the fridge light that comes on every time you open the darn thing, and daniels alarm
clock, which i'm tryin' to get him to switch to a wind up, but doesn't want to deal with the
evil noise those things make

i'm gonna sit down this afternoon, and give the usage calculator another go

i also realized the hot water heater has an electric start and it took up having to crawl up under the darn
RV to find that information

then i had to find a conversion chart to help me convert milliamps to watts

this has been very interesting, i never knew what a milliamp even was

i have been sort of pokin' around the web lookin' at solar packages and batteries

i think that "parts on sale" place has really good prices"

tesa

ok, well, after working with the sizing calculator for several days now,
i guess solar is out of the question

its not that we can't afford the panels, and such

it seems the batteries are out of our budget

based on the calculations i ran
it said we would need something like 600 amp hours

when i looked at batteries, it was gonna cost us in the neighborhood of
2000 dollars for batteries?? 220 amp hour battery at 800 bucks, so we'd
need three??

if this is right, i'm screwed

did i do something wrong to get such a big number

tesa

Which calculator did you use?   

You are saying that the total DC amp hours total up to 600 amp hours for a 24 hour day? Seems high for not using things like toaster or microwave.   ???

If your calculations included a lot of hours use of those RV incandescent type lights that may be where too much power is going. Incandescent lamps are terribly inefficient. CFL's are way better.

What batteries were you pricing out?

Our L16's  are 375 ah each so 4 x 6 = 24v@375 amp hours.  They cost $210 cheapest wholesale, but average around $300 to $360 each on the net with some unscrupulous ones asking $559 I think it was.

We could get by with 8 fresh ones by working them hard but currently have 8 new ones in two new strings and 12 old ones in 3 old strings  of 4 in series.

Yes - it is easy to dump $2000 in batteries for rather heavy use or longer term with little sun....generator still required.   Battery life as little as 3 years if not cared for too well or 5 years if cared for better but the charger/rejuvenator/desulfators I should have in about a week may take that to as high as 15 years.  Results look good on the testing Mike is doing.

I think 8 L16's would get you by if that is your real rate.  In the day you can run from the panels and keeping the batteries - using the stored power fr the night.

Looks like we are at about 625 ah per day @ 24 volts   I didn't do the math - just estimating from what we can make.

We run 2 refrigerators, 2 freezers (20 and 8 cf) 1 1/2 hp water pump for 1 hr 15 minutes per day, washer - drier (propane)  lots of cf lights -   shop - saws - welder etc often.  Normal stuff.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 03, 2009, 09:51:23 PM
Looks like we are at about 625 ah per day @ 24 volts   I didn't do the math - just estimating from what we can make.

That's why I suspect tesa's figures may have a glitch. I didn't think she would come anywhere close to that since they have a propane fridge (right?) no microwave or toaster. 

tesa, if you ran those numbers powering the fridge off the DC or AC (not off propane) that is a No-No for off grid. RV fridges on AC or DC use a heating element to get the RV fridge cooling system to work. Big power hog.

We use a Microwave, toaster when we want and coffeemaker, however our coffeemaker is the Mister Coffee that brews then shuts off with the coffee in a thermal insulated stainless steel pot.

We have a demand propane water heater Bosch HX125.

The high amp short term things - microwave - coffeemaker - toaster (unless you decide to microwave the thanksgiving turkey) are not a great problem unless the system is pretty marginal.

ok, good nights sleep, a hot cup of coffee and i'm ready for a new day!

it does seem like we factored in alot of lights, i tried to write down everytime
someone turned on alight, and for how long,

i would love to try and find CF lights for the RV, but its
something i really haven't started looking at

i should move that furthur up the "to do" list

no fridge, no microwave, no toaster

and last night, daniel unplugged the alarm clock to see
if we could stand the noise the wind up makes

i didn't even hear it this morning  hehe

i wasn't sure about the battery thing, so i just started poking around
the net looking at "golf cart batteries" i also went to
solar sites looking at them

daniel told me to look for 12v and i found 220 amp hour but it
was that $800 one

since this is all greek to me, i'm having to really educate myself
and i'm finding that i'm getting a bit frustrated with my own
lack of knowledge when it come to these thing

i was terribly frustrated after i saw the prices on those batteries

but i'm not gonna give up!!

i'm gonna keep on seeking out knowledge/advise till i get
it right

my mission for today:

research CF lights for the RV
try to find a local source for golf cart batteries

(hell, houston is huge, surlly we've got some golf cart places here)

i understand how the basic idea of the battery works, it's our storred power for the night time, no sun
hours

i guess, we would really have to watch our usage after dark,

daniel thinks i'm freakin' out because i keep forgetting we have an 8K watt generator

tesa

A couple of points/opinions...

I doubt that you are going to find CFL's that will plug in to the RV fixtures, unless the fixtures have regular household screw bases. If you do, let us know because many will be interested.

If you can get the electrical loads down to where golf cart batteries can be used, Sam's Club has the best prices on them. Here in NM at least. Our cabin will start out with 12 golf cart batteries, that's about $900.

Golf cart batteries are 6 or 8 volt. Use two 6 volt ones in series to make the 12. We use 4 of them in our RV; 2 strings in series/parallel for 12 VDC.

We use battery powered alarm clocks. No sound until the alarm goes off. They seem to run forever on 2 C cells.

You could use the generator to power the RV along with a decent set of batteries. That's what we've done for a couple years now. However, I am so looking forward to not having to burn the gas.

superbrightleds.com

interesting site with some led's i think we can use

husband is electrical engineer, so he's gonna have to check that out later

i found a really interesting webist that is for folks who go to "burning man" and i
found tons of posts about people replacing their bulbs with leds

i'll tell daniel about the 2 6volt batteries vs the one 12 volt thing

i trust you about the FC thing, as i struck out all the way around on that, but i
think the LED thing might be promissing

a "watt" of hope, if you will

i'd consider running the alarm clock off reg. batteries, i'm not opposed to that at all

i too am concerned about using the generator too much, but taking things one step at
a time is good for moral!

i just can't thank you all enough for your help, i wish i could send some cyber cookies, or
a big chocolate cake to each of you for your time :)

i'd like to think my learning experience will benifit others who in future or even now,
are reading this topic and learning, as i am

tesa

Try the LED's, but I'd try only get one or two at first to try out. LED's tend to be very directional; great in a flashlight, but I find them unsuitable for tasks like general illumination. On the other hand they are miserly with power. Pricey too, IMO.

Tesa, You will find the CF's much more pleasant to read under after about 5 minutes than the LED's at least until they improve more, but they are getting better and put out quite a bit of light but more to specific areas with a hazy non focused light around the edges.  I use them for prospecting - the headlight, and the 3w Maglight 3 cell mini-flashlight is super.

You may find local battery manufacturers that make the L16's rather than Trojan which are more expensive - key is the 375ah or so rating - they also are 6 volt so 2 required for 12 volt - 4 for 24 volt.  Maybe still as cheap as $250 or so.

On your amp hours were you figuring a 12 volt system or 24 volt system - big difference in required amp hours.

12v x 100 amp hours =1200 watts     24v x 100 amp hours is 2400 watts

Your continued contribution of questions and researched answers shared is all we expect. :)

i agree that we need to try one or two and see how they work

i do have places i'd like good lighting, but at 2am in the bathroom, i don't really need to
see like i'm pullin' out a splinter on my toe

i did run the numbers using 12 volts,

i sort of thought the lights werent too bad, when you consider a normal house and how many
40-60 watt bulbs they might employ, so i thought my 4 36 watters were ok

i think the biggie was the water pump, i guess my thinking was it would need to be on at
least 1/2 the day, i don't wanna turn on the generator if i just wanna wash my hands,
but maby i could get creative about that too

it draws 84 watts and for 12 hours, thats a biggie, so i'm willing to look outside the box

other than that, i really thought our load was good

tia bunk has a wee 12v fan we bought at a truck stop, and it only draws 10 watts, but in summer
she sleeps with it all night

and in summer i plan to run my stationary fan at 30 watts, but it really moves air

the computer, at 65 watts is on alot, but being homeschoolers, we use it alot too, and i
feel its part of tia's education, so thats a must too

other than that, i really feel the only thing we can give on is the lighting

a friend of daniels gave us some MK batteries, daniel called the company, and they said
they wouldn't work for our needs, but such a shame as we have 10 of the darn things,
and they are brand new

when i looked them up on the MK website, they say they are 12v, and it seems they
are deep cycle

i wonder why they wouldn't work ???

their product # is m12260

and the bloody things are rated at 26 amp hours

any chance you'd look them up for me and maby you can figure out why we can't use them

not that i don't trust the folks at the company, but i just don't see why we cant use them

if you can confirm i can't maby someone else can?

i'd hate to just throw them out, not that i would, i'd for sure try to find a use for them, as
i know they can't just go into the landfill, maby if i could figure out who would use them,
i could offer them up on the trade/give away topic

tesa

Quotei sort of thought the lights werent too bad, when you consider a normal house and how many
40-60 watt bulbs they might employ, so i thought my 4 36 watters were ok

For comparisons sake we use 23 watt CFL's in most places, both the house and the cabin. One of those gives out as much light (lumens) as an incandescent 100 watt lamp. Not sure what the lumens are from 36 watts worth of 12 volt RV lighting, but it's bound to be less than the 23 watt CFL. Incandescents turn a lot of the electrical energy into heat; CFL's do not. Neither do LED's.

Quote
it draws 84 watts and for 12 hours, thats a biggie, so i'm willing to look outside the box

That water pump wouldn't be working for 12 hours a day. The typical RV water pump only draws power when a faucet is opened. The circuit may be turned on, but until a faucet is opened the only draw will be the pilot light on the switch (if there is one). I've never metered the actual run time on our RV water pump, but my best guess is that it is under an hour per day for certain. More than likely a quarter hour at the most, probably less most days.



RV furnaces suck watts too, but only when the fan is running.


A big disadvantage of those MK batteries is their capacity; 26 amp-hours. With all ten in parallel that gives 260 amp hours total capacity. That's slightly more than two regular 6 volt golf cart batteries in series.

They should not be used in the same battery bank, with batteries of a different type like wet cell golf cart or L-16.

great news about the water pump, thats gonna make my new numbers look that much better!!

daniel spoke at length with the friend that gave them to us, and actually, he can not confirm
that they haven't been used, so i'm gonna recant my "brand new" claim

also, he said when he called the company (MK) they said the main problem
with them, for our useage, would be that they don't accept a trickle type charge
which wouldn't be ideal for us

i guess i might try to put them up on craigs list for free, since we really can't
confirm they are in fact new

i'm also searching for a local recycling place we can take them   :(

i feel so much better than i did just 24 hours ago, i'm gonna re-run the numbers
based on the new info on the pump, and try again

i went to the sams club website and found lots of battery choices

and i know of several golf cart places in houston on my list to call tomorrow for pricing

tesa

Tesa,

Here is a link to a fellow that sells Lots of batteries for off grid use.  I purchased 16 12V AGM batteries for $800 from him.  They are super batteries.  They each weigh 100lbs.  But do they ever hold a charge. 

Each one is rated at 120 amp-hours.  Since they are absorbent glass matt batteries, you can mount them in any position (Why anyone would mount them other than straight up, I can't imagine).  They are non-spillable and as long as you use a charge controller they should last a long long time as long as you don't drain them below 50% of their capacity.

The batteries I got were from a data center in Denver.  They were used as a battery back up for the data center.  The seller is quite knowledgable and communicates well.  Ask him any questions and he'll respond.

Here's the link:
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/SolarEnergyQuest__W0QQ_armrsZ1

Copy and paste into your browser.

Best wishes,

Hal

great, thanks for the link, will do!

after some research, daniel thought flooded batteries would better suit our needs,
as i'm only just now beginning to understand the battery thing

after some poking around, i found some 6v 232 ah flooded for $140 each and
the site is offering free shipping

we've been investigating the pros and cons of each type of battery (flooded, gell, etc)

we thought flooded would better suit our needs, as the sealed have less
life span?

am i on the right track with that?

tesa

As to lifespan, I really can't say.  You might ask the fellow selling these kinds of batteries.  He himself has a cabin at about 11,000 feet in Colorado and uses these batteries there.

My experience so far with them has been great.  As I've researched things myself, I always find pros and cons, people "insisting" on this type of battery, others "insisting" on another.  Gel batteries are maintenance free...no adding of water, specific gravity tests...all of that.  Yes you might trade a bit of longevity for maintenance free.

After educating yourself, then trust yourself and your decisions....something I am learning to do myself!!

Best.

Hal

Quote from: hnash53 on February 05, 2009, 09:42:56 AM
Gel batteries are maintenance free...

Just remember Gel does not mean AGM. There are both and there s a difference. Neither will leak fluid, both can be mounted in any position. However, a Gel cell requires a different charge rate than AGM or flooded cell. AGM and flooded cell can use the standard type of battery chargers. Gel cells also do not "like" high discharge rates, however they excel at low rates of discharge. AGM are a much better choice than Gels for alternative power systems. It  is commonplace to find AGM's referred to as Gel cells. If in doubt check and see what the manufacturer calls them.

I thought this was a good write up on AGM batteries. There are also some other FAQ type explanations on there that I thought were good.  http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/AgmTech.htm

i went to that very site when reading up

i just re-read the article, just to make sure i understand

i sort of do, but i'm relying on daniel choosing, since he'll be
the one takin' care of the "babies"

i think he thinks flooded will last longer, and be a better investment, but i know
this is a big decission, so he's taking a day off from reading websites, and
gonna hit the research again tomorrow, as we have plans tonight


also, in my travels today, i stopped at a few auto zone type places, and looked
at LED lights, i think i'm gonna lay low on those, i really don't think our lighting
load is too bad, i still think 3 36 watt lights isn't too bad, i do respect that
the LED's are less watts, but none the less, i think we should be able
to manage

however, if someone really thinks 3 36 watts is too much, then i'll reconsider

but for now, i'm good

on another note, i've been looking at inverters, we have a very small ac load compared to
our dc load (benifit of the RV) i added up everything we might ever run (like the sewing maching,
and our cd player) and only came up with 361 watts, so i looked at a 600 sine wave
inverter for around 250, i think, off the top of my head

tesa

Just a quick note as I'm short on time right now...

You will need a good battery charger as well. For maximum battery life it needs to be able to put out 15.5 to 16 volts, on a 12 v system, in order to perform a proper equalization charge. Good inverters, like Outback, have a multi-stage charger built in to them. They are user programmable for the charging voltages, within a certain range.

So, if you are looking at a good pure sine wave inverter, without charger, you need to address the charger/equalization issue. Many RV's do not come with a charger that can do that.

There may be other inverter/chargers out there that can do the proper equaliztion voltages. I have not looked at them all in close detail.

I began my inverter/charger search with operating temperature range being important. I wanted one whose specs said it could be used down to minus segree F temps. Many are not rated for below freezing or below zero, so I didn't look any further. Outbacks inverter/chargers are approved for down to -60 degrees F.

No air compressor, table saw, skill saw, microwave, washer, drier?

BTW, tesa -- my son and GF have been to Burning Man a couple of times. d* 

They may have powered a few of those lights...  [waiting]

i did see the outback inverters

and i knew we'd need a charger

i'm tryin' to keep my research to just a few things at a time, least i get overwhelmed

but thats next on the list

daniel plans to use the power tools with the generator, and i'm gonna give up
the microwave, no washer or dryer

we actually don't use the microwave too much, the odd bag of popcorn, or maby
a quick warm up of cold pizza

i know people, mostly bachelors who use the thing every day, but we really don't

i think what i'm gonna really miss the most is the toaster, we use that by far
more than the microwave

i have this thing for toasted bread with honey and butter, but at 800 watts, i'm
gonna give it up

prolly won't see you all again till monday, busy weekend

have a great weekend!!

tesa

Don't give up toast!

http://www.rei.com/product/401036?cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-na&mr:trackingCode=61F4D5A4-B9F3-DD11-96D7-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA

-f-

tesa, keep in mind that while it is 800 watts, it is only used for a few minutes so its effect on the batteries is not so bad if you have a big enough inverter.

Ultimately up to you but I would caution you against getting too small an inverter to start off with because I wasted a lot of money getting a square wave (modified sine- Trace) then decided nothing but sine would work and went for 4000 watts to start - a Trace 4024 which had the built in charger.  I don't know what capability it has for equalization programming as I use a welder for equalization and haven't checked it out.

Just wanted to throw this in to think about - adding to the confusion.  The Outback I know is one of the better ones.

We used to have one of those camp stove top toasters. I like my toast to be toasty on the outside, but not dried all the way through. It tended to dry the bread out too much for my likes, but others may vary. Cheap enough to be worth a try.

However, as Glenn stated, the toaster doesn't run for long periods. Given good batteries and an inverter that will handle, say 1000-1100 watts continuous, you could retain the toaster.

The inverter election deserves a lot of thought. I wanted to retain the use of my 1100 watt Exeltach pure sine wave inverter, but in the end decided it was not the way to go for us.

good morning!

waiting on a call back from the "parts on sale" people

hopefully, they can help with some of my general questions, and their website doesn't list
prices on their solar panels

found a Samlex America 600 watt pure sine inverter for $259, but i don't think it has a
charger, so it might be better to go with the outback which include the charger

its my understanding this helps equalize the batteries?

i'm not really clear on what the darn thing actually does   d*

i also believe we're gonna go with a ground mounted array, after some surveying of the location for
the house, i don't think it will be the best place for panels, i dont want to cut down every tree, for
gosh sake, so i'm thinking the panels themselves will be about 80-100 feet from the house, but for
the rv, they'll be right next to us, tryin' to think ahead a bit

to do list for today

continue resarching batteries,
get pricing on the panels, and inverter

and try to understand this charger business

last night, i tossed and turned all night dreaming of rainwater harvesting, and roofs

tesa

The charger is for when you are hooked to the generator to charge the batteries in low sun or no sun conditions.  The ability to equalize built into that charger will help bring low cells up to the same specific gravity as the rest  preventing you from having to buy new batteries every couple of years.  A normal charger as in automotive will not do that.

I would stick with Outback rather than some unknown as that is their specialty.  It could save you from buying one that won't work and having to spend the money again in the future.

Remember, IF you go with AGM batteries you can likely forgo the equalization charge... depending on battery manufacturers recommendations.   ???  Can't say definitively if that's a good thing or bad.

well, heres our quote from "parts on sale"

2 suntech stp 210 watt panels $839 each
mppt500 charge controller $195
mc4-10 solar connector cable $13
breaker box $25
2 pv array breakers $12
tfb150 fuse block $45
bc3-2/0 connector cable for fuse block $18
ugm84 ground mount $216

total of $2,214.00
shipping is $329

the quote included a 1000 watt inverter, which we really only wanted 600, i didn't want to
oversize the inverter too much our ac load is 310 watts apx.

so this quote doesn't include an inverter, as we're still searching/researching

also, i'm still looking at batteries, and daniel might be leaning towards the AGM batteries

based on prelem research, i thought they were a bit higher priced, but you get what you
pay for, and i don't think he wants to babysit the batteires too much

thoughts?

tesa

You will find little difference in standby  power use  on the inverter but may really like having the added capacity.   I have 8000 watts of inverter power but seldom use them hard.

They seem to have lowered their price since we bought from them.  $4.00 per watt is cheap.  they were prompt and great to deal with - also sent a wire diagram with the system.

We have the mppt 500 controller and it works fine.  Note that it does not have equalization built in but if you equalize with the charger on the inverter it is not a problem. 

As an after thought ask them how you are going to equalize your batteries - if the inverter charger will do it or if it has one.

ok, don't think we can use the 600 watt inverter, as its only 115 vac, and we need 120 vac

so i guess we're buying a 1000 watt inverter

the samlex s-1012a is an inverter/charger $579 sold on their website (parts on sale) so maby
they can include that in our package

will send them an e-mail and ask them about the equilization

so if i buy an inverter with a charger, than i don't have to buy a seperate charger, am i correct?

tesa

interesting development

daniel says the rv's CONVERTER actually has a battery charger

he says its a built in three stage charger

i wonder if that would work as a charger?

oh, and regarding the parts on sale people, they were so helpful today

answered all my questions, were very friendly, didn't make me feel like an idiot, and
i got the quote back in less than 4 hours

tesa

I have heard some people say they prefer a seperate inverter and charger so that if one fails they only have to replace the one.  I'm not off grid though so you may want to stick with the experts on here.

115, 120 VAC; basically no difference in use.

samlex s-1012a  does not have a equalization setting. It tops out at an absorption rate of 14.5 v in the 12 V model.

The Samlex efficiency is 85% in inverter mode; not as high as top line inverters which are around 92%.

An indicator of whether or not an inverter is top line is the weight of the unit. The 2000 watt Samlex weighs about 23 lbs. The top line, like Outback weigh in at about 67 lbs. 

The Xantrex Truecharge 2 battery chargers are one of the few that have equalization mode. 40 amps for about $300+ IIRC. Do a Google. There may be other brands as well.


About the RV converter/charger. Your RV converter may be suitable for charging your solar system battery bank and there's a good chance it is not. Many converter/chargers that come with the RV are unsuitable for use with more than the single battery that come with many RV's. Check the specs and see what the charger output is; how many amps. Many of these are a poor compromise, they don't have a high enough output to rapidly charge the batteries, yet the output is too high for a trickle or maintenance charge. The converter/charger that came with our RV puts out 6 to 10 amps; I replaced it with one that can put out up to 55 amps.

The maximum charge rate is determined by the batteries; how many or total amp-hour capacity. If running a generator to charge it's a waste of gasoline to charge at low rates. Add up the total of the amp-hours for the batteries. In our RV that's 440 amp-hours. Using the C/8 formula, 440/8 = 55 amps, bang on the nose. You don't have to be that close, mine just worked out that way. That's the MAX rate, less is fine, just takes longer. You can see if I relied on the built in RV controller/charger it would take much longer for the generator to charge the batteries.

When you go to equalize the batteries you first have to bring them to full charge, then set the equalization process in process. Every month is ideal, many folks do it every 3 months, if they remember. So, if your solar panels are able to bring the batteries up on a great sunny day, the generator may not need many hours of running. But if it's been cloudy for a while them the genset will have to do all the work.

Quote from: Mike 870 on February 09, 2009, 10:31:09 PM
I have heard some people say they prefer a separate inverter and charger so that if one fails they only have to replace the one. 

Here's my take on it.

1. Starting off with a top line unit means it is less likely that you will have a failure. Not impossible, just less likely.  Glenn has Trace (discontinued, now Xantrex) I believe; good quality units. He's probably made sparks fly more than once and they still work.  :o

2. Combination Inverter/Chargers automatically switch the inverter off when generator power is applied to the genset input. This protects components that are connected to the battery bank from possible over voltage conditions.

In some separate inverter, separate charger systems it could be possible for the charger to be putting power into the batteries at the same time the inverter or other DC equipment is connected to the batteries. If the charger is placed in equalization mode it will be placing a voltage 15.5 to 16 VDC  on the batteries. THe rated input range voltage on that Samlex inverter is 10 to 15 volts. Some units will turn off if the input voltage is too high. Some may not. I have no idea what that one does.

So separate devices could work. It depends on how you set it up and how faithful you are to doing things in the correct sequence if the system doesn't look after those details automatically.

Inverter Trivia:
Trace inverters were recognized as one of the best. Trace got bought out and became Xantrex. Some believe Xantrex quality was not up to the old Trace. Outback was started after Trace became Xantrex. The founders of Outback were disgruntled Trace engineers.

I have been very happy with my old Trace 4024's.  I traded a near new Xantrex 4000 watt square wave and $800 for the first used Trace 4024 Sine wave then wanted 240v so found another matching 4020 on Ebay - checked the vendor out and he seemed reliable so it cost $1500 or so. 

Synchronization cable was relatively cheap online.  240 v works great.  I have 5 sets of L16's (375 ah at 24v when series connected in a group of 4)  so looks like I could bulk charge at about 250 amps, however to keep from doing a bunch of professional wiring I just set my welder at about 140 amps and still charge well in a reasonable amount of time - maybe a couple hours if down quite a bit.  Seldom needed now except a short bit in long storms.

The Traces take care of switching- over  voltage - short - under voltage -equalization - not sure of parameters on that -  many more things are programmable as well as automatic generator start and stop if desired.

i had heard a good way to tell about inverter quality is weight i think we're gonna go with the xantrex (sp)

we plan to make a decission tonight or tomorrow on that, as theres only so much research i can do, then
its up to the engineer, i just write the checks ;)

daniel spoke to some guys here in the magnolia area that do PV systems, and
they tried hard to convince him to go with AGM batteries, beings we're beginners

we're also gonna make a decission on that within the next few days, as i'd like to
get going on ordering

the bid out of parts on sale looks good, and i feel that her advise about components
was sound

still a bit confussed about battery charger, but i know we can forget about equilization with
the agm batteries

making some progress in other areas too, we are now in possession on 20 tons of crushed
concrete for the culvert/RV pad site

culvert being delivered friday morning

construction on the RV shed starts this saturday when we sink the poles

movin' right along!!

not to put any pressure on the old man, but i'd dearly love to be on the property by
april 1

which means we've gotta get everything purchased soon, phew, can you imagine how long this
process would have been with out the world wide web??

tesa

AGM's look scarey to me - as to things that can go wrong and cost money -- just read this - still looking.

http://www.bitwrangler.com/wt/lv-ab-agm.html

https://oceannavigator.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=&tier=4&id=6851F3EAFA4E41FDBFEFDE27869EF0A9

Found this and I assume that 24 volt systems would be doubled.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/chargingvoltages.jpg)

http://www.pacificpowerbatteries.com/aboutbatts/Deep%20Cycle%20Battery%20FAQ/dcfaq6.html



http://www.bdbatteries.com/mcharging_procedures.php

interesting stuff, i'm really beginning to understand.

i feel a bit better armed with knowledge

daniel and i came to a decission today regarding the inverter

we're gonna go with the samlex 1012a, it has a built in charger, and its weight is more than the
comperable xantrex model (according to the websites)

we're also gonna go with the bid from parts on sale

so its a done deal, except for the batteries

$3191.14 including shipping!

not too bad me thinks!

plus the cost of the generator, which was $800 and then the batteires,
so for under 5K we've got power!!

cheaper than grid tied by several thousand

phew!!

will post our final decission on the battery dilema, but it looks like its a done deal

i can't thank you all enough for going above and beyond for us

even with some hair pulling, its been rewarding to learn, and make these decissions

tesa

Our pleasure, tesa.  Please keep us informed.

Is there a reason you are not going with the 24v system, tesa?  Wire sizes can be smaller, although you won't have a lot of big wire if neat th panels and batteries.  The BZ MPPT500 will handle it with proper jumper settings- the 2 panels can be wired series for 24v I think and the inverter is available at the same price for a 24 volt Samlex model S1024A. 

The charger 24 v at 20 A works out the same watts as 12 v at 40 amps - again - wire sizes can be smaller with less loss.  ou could ask the parts on sale people about it if you have questions.

Looks like with the panels they spec'd they will be setting you up for the 24v inverter - just a guess that these are the panels and they operate at 24v.

http://partsonsale.com/STP200_24_Ub-1_E01.01%20Sept10%202008EN.pdf

tesa, IIRC you said that the panels could be as far as 100 feet from the cabin/house location. ??? 

Check with the folks at partsonsale just how they visualize these things all being connected. Are the two panels to be connectes in parallel? Or in series?   The 210 panels have a short circuit rating of 8.33 amps. In parallel that comes to 2x 8.33 = 16.66 amps maximum current at approx 24 volts. That looks like a wire size of #1 AWG, at a voltage drop of 2.14% for a 100 ft run.  That's big wire.  :o

If the panels were in series, that would then be approx 48 volts at 8.33 amps. Over the 100 ft distance the wire could then be as small as #6 AWG.

This just hot me as I recalled something about that 80-100 ft distance. I don't mean to confuse things, but there is a big difference in wire cost. Check prices at Lowe's or someplace.

Of course the other thing that gets complicated is that charge controller may not be able to handle the voltages with the series panels.  ???


Glenn, regarding the 12 VDC vs 24 VDC... I'll wager one reason they are thinking about a 12 VDC based battery system is that they want to use a bunch of the RV lights and accessories that they have. And I have interpreted tesa's cabin/house plans to be much the same.   :-\ :-\

OKay, I just looked... if that is the BZ MPPT500 controller it's good for up to 100 VDC input, so it could handle your two panels in series. And you can charge 12, 24 or 48VDC battery banks.   [cool]


I agree that 24 VDC based systems make a lot of sense. You more batteries in series, fewer in parallel; that's better. Wires for 24 VDC can be smaller. The stumbling block is the 12 VDC requirements for lights, water pump, etc. That's a compromise you have to decide on yourself.

FYI, IF you did decide to go for the 24 VDC battery bank system, there are devices that will let you have a 12 VDC supply without using a center tap to obtain 12 VDC from the 24 VDC battery bank. But that involves an expenditure of some more $$; which would be at least partly covered by the wire savings.

Solar Converters makes some good ones.
One that changes 24 VDC to 12 VDC with a max of 20 amps at the 12 VDC end is $169 at solarseller.com (http://solarseller.com/dc_to_dc_converters__autotransformer__dc_dimmer__12_24__dc_voltage_converter___.htm#eq_12_24_20_)


Take your time and weigh all the pros and cons before making the big jump, the commitment to a particular system.

We have the same controller.  Here are the specs
http://www.windandsunpower.com/BZ_files/MPPT500V1%20INSTALATION%20MANUAL.pdf

Looks like it will handle 100 OCV if I read the specs right.  

re-reading the quote list I note the absence of the remote temperature sensor for the charge controller. It should be used. It allows the charge controller to adjust the charge rate up or down for temperature differences at the batteries. Batteries react and work differently at higher and lower temps.

had a busy day, just now getting home

i've sent a msg. to my contact at parts on sale, asking about the temp. controller

also, daniel was interested in using a pole mount, vs the ground mount, so i
think they'll be working up a new quote

the array will be very close to the RV, but once we build the cabin, then, i think
it might be a greater distance, IF we keep the array where it is right now,
however, for now, i 'm thinking the array will be maby 10' from the RV, but i can see where my post was confussing

sorry

thanks for the small panic attack over the 12 volt/24 volt thing  :)

for just a second, i thought i was just gonna go bang my head against the wall, and call it
a day LOL

we do intend to use much of the same system components in the cabin, as in the RV, so we
thought 12 volts was the way to go

tesa

oh, and i think its time to revisit the "thin-lite" website

daniel says he can change out the fixtures, so i'm gonna call for
pricing tomorrow

a watt saved, is a watt earned

i'll post my results

tesa

Didn't want you becoming too confident, Tesa.  Note that you can keep the batteries and solar together with the inverter there then send 120v to the cabin over pretty small wire.  Probably number 12 or 10 gauge with little loss.

Thinlites are good; we have several of their #115

http://solarseller.com/thinlite_low_voltage_12_volt_d_c__indoor_fluorescent_lighting_.htm#mod__115


I like top of pole mounts, better than ground mount.  Buy used drill pipe for the pole.

thanks glenn, i know your just tryin' to keep it real for me, :)

you guys didn't know, but i had a very minor
accident yesterday, some road debris hit by another vehicle slammed into my van, and caused some
minor damage, we're all ok, but now i can't open my passenger side door, and i've gotta cough up
my deductable, thru no fault of my own >:(

we're all ok tho, thats the good thing

but its sort of funny/scarry but i know exactly what hit me, 'cause i can see the perfect indention of
a 2x4 in the side of my van

spooky, but thank god it didn't hit the windshiled, and with tia in the van with me too!!

so when i read that post, well, i sort of got a little emotional  silly me

daniel found a great price on the steel pipe for the pole mount

something like 20 bucks for a 10' section, i can't recall the specs on it, but he said it was what we
needed, as the parts on sale person sent us the proper requirements, 3" diam. i think and she told
us it had to go into the ground 3 feet min.

regarding the thinlights, i knew, at some point we would want to work on our light loads, after some
thought to buying more batteries vs buying new fixtures, we decided to go with the fixtures, as we
felt it would be a better investment of our funds to decrease the watt usage for lighting rather
than increase our battery bank

at 60 bucks a pop, for those lights, they aint cheep

the thinlight site didn't seem to offer any pricing, so i'm gonna call later, as its still eary here, but
we did find them on another site for 60 each plus shipping

oh, and parts on sale says it will take them three weeks to ship our order, as the pole mount
is custom

sweet! i've waited three years for this day, i can wait three weeks

tesa

Glad the accident wasn't worse, tesa. 

I get to go to the valley and be attacked by the traffic today myself.  Selling my body for money again.

thanks, i'm glad it wasn't worse too! tia was a bit emotional, as the impact made a big sound, and of course,
my reaction was a bit, well, shall we say, abrutp "HOLY CRAP"

i've been pokin' around the solar seller dot com site that don posted, they have
great pricing on those thinlites!

i noticed some of the come with this "radio frequency interference ballast"

is that something that stops that "flickering" you get with those type of lights?

our celings are fairly low in the RV, i'm wondering if 400 lumens will be enough to
do the dishes by, and such

the #115's are 825 lumens, i wonder if i should get that one for over the couch, as thats usually
where i read

i'll be offline today as well,

have a great day in the valley!

be safe, you never know when a 2x4 is gonna fly your way ;)

tesa

Quote from: tesa on February 12, 2009, 09:44:49 AM

i've been pokin' around the solar seller dot com site that don posted, they have
great pricing on those thinlites!

That's why I posted that link. They have consistently had the best prices I've seen on thinlites (and lots of other stuff) over many years. I also like the fact that their webpage shows in stock quantities. Fast shippers too.


Re: RFI ballasts. They reduce audible buzzing/whining interference that can occur in some cases with devices like radio receivers. I notice this with some radios, mostly inside the RV. The aluminum shell of the RV blocks or weakens the signal from the transmission tower to the point where the buzz from the ballast is the stronger signal. Inside the cabin the problem is virtually non existent on most our our radios. It has never bothered the TV.

We use the 115 type above the RV sofa bed and one there is great. We also use them over the kitchen counter and the dinette. They are perfect there too. I'm using a couple in the cabin, also over the kitchen counter (under the upper cabinets). I'm not certain if one of those would be good for reading if used on the 8 ft cabin ceiling.  ???  If used up there one would also have to come up with an accessible DC rated switch as my arms won't quite reach the ceiling.  ::)

Just a note on FL lights. The FL tubes are the same for 12 VDC, 24 VDC 120 VAC, etc. The difference is in the ballast. You can convert a 120 VAC FL fixture to operate on 12 VDC by buying the appropriate DC ballast. Sometimes this might be cost effective, frequently it is not.


A switch designed/rated for AC is not usually usable on DC circuits.

alright, we're gonna go with the thinlite 115's for the kitchen, and over the couch, and we're gonna try 111's for the bathroom
as we have a huge skylight in there, and rarley use a light except after dark

we decided not to go with that radio frequency ballast thingy, as we don't have a radio in the RV proper, we have a wee
boom box we keep outside, so it shouldn't be a problem, except for daniels alarm clock radio, but we'll cross that
bridge when we come to it, as i don't forsee the lights being on at 4am when his alarm clock will turn on, so there
shouldn't be any interference, i think

and speaking of that, i'm having the darndest time finding an battery operated alarm clock! local box stores don't have
them, even my local radio shack didn't have any, at 6 watts for 24 hours a day, i'd like to get rid of that

anyway, i'm placing my order for the thinlites tomorrow, and shipping for ups ground was only 13 bucks, not too bad

still waiting on parts on sale to get with me on the temp. monitor for the charge controller, i think my
sales person was off yesterday

also, we've decided to go (well i think we've decided to go with) with the trojan L-16 we found a dealer here
in houston that has them for $237 each 415 amp hours 6v

and, they are willing to take those MK batteries we have in exchange for the core charge we would have to pay

thats great, as i haven't even started to find a place to take them, and i know we'd have to pay to have
them taken, so thats nice to know

i'll be offline for the remainder of the weekend, as we begin construction on the shed tomorrow 7am!
so i'm spending today cleaning, and doing laundry, and pre cooking some food to feed the work-crew

culvert is being delivered later today

pray for no rain, we're still under a burn ban, and i know we need the rain, but not tomorrow!

have a good one!
tesa

man, those parts on sale people rock!

she just got back with me, and was infact off yesterday

she said the mppt500 charger does in fact have a temp. controll thingy in it, and they
carry the cables for our choosen batteries, so i guess now all i have to do is call with my
credit card number, and away we go!

daniel's in a meeting 'till two this afternoon, and i'm gonna get the final "ok" from him,
as i just write the checks, ya know

but it looks like its a done deal!

wow, what a wild ride, i think i know all i want to know about amp hours, and watts, and volts,
the rest is up to the engineer

tesa

well, thats what i get for thinkin' we had made a decission. 

daniel says he found a deal too good to pass up on two US L-16's 420 amp hour 5 year warranty, no shipping
for $218, so US battery it is

i told him "were done here, right?"

and he said "yes dear"

tesa

Quote from: tesa on February 13, 2009, 01:40:05 PM

and speaking of that, i'm having the darndest time finding an battery operated alarm clock! local box stores don't have
them, even my local radio shack didn't have any, at 6 watts for 24 hours a day, i'd like to get rid of that

Tesa, what your looking for is commonly called a travel alarm.  It is more likely to be with the luggage than the electronics section of most department stores.  You can also find them at places like Cabela's or Sportsmens Warehouse. 

-- Pritch

oh, we went down that road, the noise was awful, woke up the whole house, and maby a neighbor
or two, i'm not a morning person, so needless to say, it wasn't a happy morning with the 6 year old
up at 4:30 am

i'd like to find an actual battery operated radio/alarm clock

ours has one, but it would seem it only works just to keep the time when the power goes off, as
it wont run unless its plugged into the ac outlet

gotta be somethin' somewhere for off grid wackos like us

tesa

We have a couple of battery (C cell) alarms that we got from Sharper Image some 20 years ago. They have adjustable alarm volume, plus a setable snooze time. Tells date and time. There must be something similar from someplace online you'd think...  ??? ???

i did some searching, i think what i really want is music vs that buzzzzzz of the alarm

i thought one of those shower radios would work, beings they run off batteries, but the
ones i saw didn't offer any kind of alarm

people sell plans to build nuclear bombs on the web, surly a girl can find a battery operated
radio/alarm clock

tesa

I feel better about L-16's than any of the AGM's - more forgiving -- it looks like if you pull the AGM's too low you may lose them permanently.

battery powered alarm clocks

http://www.alarmclocksonline.com/Battery.htm

http://www.12volt-travel.com/clocks-travel-alarm-clocks-battery-powered-alarm-clocks-c-36_267.html?zenid=097c7fe346b32deaa2681262fc978ece

courtesy of Google   :)

http://www.alarmclocksonline.com/SeikoTalkToMe.htm   has a volume control; beeps, rooster or cuckoo

just posting a quick update, as we've worked all weekend, and are quite exhausted

ordered the kit from "parts on sale" delivery will be in about three weeks, as our pole mounts
are fabridated to order

batteires are on their way, special order too, but we found a deal here in houston, and
the company isn't going to charge us shipping, if we wait till they place their order

extimated delivery time, two weeks

alarm clock delimea has been resolved to everyones satisfaction, i never know our cell phones
had alarms on them

nice chime, not too obnioxius (sp) quite pleasant as a matter of fact, and free, too boot!!

i had mentioned to a friend about our alarm clock situation, and she said "hell, why don't you
just use your cell phone?" i never knew!!

problem solved!

i still haven't had a chance to order the thinlites, i plan to do that tomorrow (monday) as we spent
the entire weekend at the property

i'd just like to take this chance to thank everyone who helped me with all the PV workings

i plan to post pictures when everything arrives, and pictures of the finished array

have a great week!

tesa

Looking forward to your next posting.  Sounds good.

phew, what a crazy week, lots of things going on, it seems i had something to do every day

our thinlites arrived and daniel installed them

very interesting

a totally differend spectrum of light, i really wasn't expecting such a clear white light

very nice!

the 115's are perfect for over the couch, and in the bathroom, with the celing so low here in the RV,
its turned out to be a great reading light

the 111 we put above the sink seems to be quite enough light to do dishes by

i'm a very satisfied customer, and plan to order a few more to replace bedroom lighting, and another light
in the center of the RV, but that will have to wait a few weeks

we cut our watt usage for those three lights in half! [cool]

part of our array shipped last wednesday, all the cables, hardware, and inverter, but the panels themselves
wont ship till monday, or tuesday, and the pole mount is still in production

tesa

Sounds good. Tesa

I knew you'd like the Thinlites  :)

ok, we're less than a week from moving the RV

daniel has been researching how to go about setting up our PV system

he's concerned we'll have to re-wire the entire RV

is it possible to still use the shore line plug?

the solartron people told us we'd have to disconnect the converter and buy 12v breakers

daniel is an electrical engineer by trade, but this is all new to him

i understand what the converter does, and why we don't need that anymore

could someone give us a quick rundown of "order of operation"

we purchased a shed from homedepot to act as a battery house/equipment house and built it
right behind the RV

we also purchased 6 vents to put into the walls for fresh air intake

our batteries are in storage, we picked them up friday

tesa

First, the RV DC circuits should already have DC breakers or fuses. Mine does. There should be no need for new ones.

Are you going to be running everything inside the RV on strictly 12 VDC?  No AC power at all?  No AC supplied from an inverter?  Tell me about that before I go further.

Regarding the shed and the batteries. Is this a metal shed? If so you should likely place something like wood, hardboard, plastic or whatever on the wall behind and above the batteries. It may take a while but fumes from the batteries can eat away at the metal. I have a rust streak up the inside wall of my shed here at home where acid fumes ate away the paint.

we do have a small a/c load.

the tv, computer, one small task light (30watts).

we have a 30watt room fan we'll be running in summer

and a 7watt nightlight in the bathroom for tia

we've put into storage all our other a/c appliances

we purchased a 1000 watt pure sine inverter

and the shed is wooden, we had heard about problems with metal buildings and out batteries, so we
opted for a wood structure, but thanks for the heads up

i think "re-wire" the entire RV was a bit misleading, he's just not sure how power actually gets into the RV itself

right now, we're connected to shore power thru the big plug at the back of the RV, he thinks that is going to need
some sort of re-wiring

i wish the solartron folks would have been more helpful, maby they didn't understand what daniel
was asking

he thinks maby he'll have to run the wires up under the RV, to the fusebox, which would mean drilling some sort
of hole into the rv itself, maby

tesa

Most likely the solartron people don't have any idea of how an RV is wired.


Here's one method...
1. disconnect the RV converter, so when AC shorepower is applied it will not kick in and try to charge the batteries from the inverter.

2. wire the AC output of the inverter to the shorepower input. Use a cord and plug or hardwire it inside the RV. I used the plug in method, but replaced the standard RV plug and socket with a twist lock type.

3. Wire the DC lines from the batteries to the DC input on the RV. This will be wherever the RV batteries were designed to sit by the RV manufacturer. In mine this is under a rear bench seat. That necessitated a hole to be drilled underneath, and a grommet to be installed to protect the battery cables as they pass through.

The RV's AC circuit breakers will still function. Ditto the DC breakers or fuses. The only danger would be from someone unwittingly plugging in an AC load that is too big for your inverter. In that case the inverter should shut down.

I think that should do it.

thanks a million! i'll let daniel read this when he comes home

tesa

And when disconnecting the converter I'd disconnect both the AC input and the DC output lines.

daniel says "thank you so much, now i'm clear on many points!" :)

tesa