I am thinking about building onto my existing cabin, doubling it's current size. It is located in a remote area of western Wyoming at about 8000-8500 feet in elevation. Most years (although not this year) access is by snowmobile from sometime in November to sometime in April. I am considering living there full time once the addition is complete.
The cabin is about 20 miles from the nearest town of less than 5000 people. It will be totally offgrid, powered by wind and sun, heated by wood.
I am wondering if there are those of you who are already living permanently in remote areas like this, or you have previously lived in remote areas ... what is it like? I'm mostly interested in the mental/psychological aspects of such an existence. ???
I myself don't like big crowds, and matter-of-factly, small crowds bug me, too. I like a few friends, physical work of my own choosing, and an uncomplicated life.
If you care to share such an experience I would appreciate hearing what you have to say.
Thanks.
Are you planning to do this alone or with a spouse/family? I lived for 15 months in a remote area in Colorado at about 8900' elevation. I had a 40 mile drive one way to work and town was 15 miles away so it's close to what you're talking about. I enjoyed living there except when we had snowstorms. Getting out after a storm was often an all day affair of heavy work. If you don't need to dive to work that might not be so bad. I had to dig out 2-3 times a month during the winter so it was no fun not mention the lost income from not working those days. Storms always hit on work days. It gets cold for 9 months out of the year so unless you like cold forget it. You might not think it's so bad if you've only gone for a few days at a time but try below 0 for 3-4 weeks straight. In the end I decided it wasn't for me.
Hey thanks for the reply. I like snow and love cross country skiing. I'm hoping my wife will do this with me. She's not sold on the idea. I don't have to go to a job everyday. I'm hoping that I can do some online selling to make some $$. I have a modest retirement fund that will provide a regular income, but won't get rich from it. The cold doesn't bother me as long as I can eventually get warm.
We don't get the snow that CO gets but enough that I will have to snowmobile in and out for 6-7 months. the ride is about 7-9 miles to get to where I can drive my vehicle.
Thanks for sharing!!
I would like to do it, at least for a while. My location has friendlier weather than what you will have and is about 15 miles form a town of 800 or so people. I plan to be there next summer for sure. And I do have year round access with a 4 wheel drive. The biggest problem of course is the almighty dollar. I have many entanglements from my present life along with the normal expenses that will go on. (gas, propane, food, vehicle maintenance, etc.) I have a lot of home brewed building projects in mind up there and a good start on the needed materials. I think I could be content for quite a while. I don't know about forever. I am a one day at a time kind of guy.
Like you I don't need a lot of people around, in fact I prefer the opposite. A trip to a grocery store now and again will suffice. I have been a loner most of my life.
Anyway I think this is a great topic. And I look forward to seeing some other responses.
I could not live on a permanent basis in such a remote type of area, with winters severe enough to cut off the use of even a well outfitted 4x4.
My mountain property faces similar winter issues. Soon, probably this weekend, access by 4x4 may simply become difficult, or more than likely not possible except by snowmobile . I do have access to a place to park the 4x4 when a snowmobile becomes necessary. However, the issue of whether or not the 4x4 would be a victim of vandals or outright stolen is another matter.
My moniker may be MountainDon, but unless the world does actually go to heck in a handbasket, I'd rather not have to live up there in the winter. Spring, summer and fall are another matter. However, at this point in my semi-retired life that is not practical either. The daily requirements of the business needs our presence mid-August through May and it's too fat to commute daily. We spent most of June through August up there this summer and we loved it.
I measure the distances to town and civilizations amenities in terms of time rather than miles. The paved highway is about 15 minutes to a week away from the mountain property, depending on conditions. The nearest small town, Los Alamos is about a 50 minute drive from that point, on dry summer mountain paved roads. The nearest bigger city (current home) is another 75 minutes in the other direction on a good day.
I meant to include in that prior post that everything I stated pertains to my present situation; 61+ years old with an adult son on his own, and my wife of 30 years with me still. :o
If this was say 20 years ago, when we were younger, I would have still loved to spend summers up there. But not winters. If there are children involved the picture changes a lot for me.
I applaud those who successfully home school their children. That is quite an undertaking. We did not choose that route as we were not sure we could do as a good a job as the private schools we did use. Living up there in the mountains with a child in a government school would have involved way too bus driving and/or bus time.
My other concern, where children are involved, is the availability of health care facilities. Being snowbound and in need of medical assistance is something to consider. As we get older that can also be something to consider.
Quotethe ride is about 7-9 miles to get to where I can drive my vehicle.
and
QuoteThe cabin is about 20 miles from the nearest town of less than 5000 people.
I don't consider this all that remote, myself. [noidea'
Since I currently have young kids, I wouldn't want to live where it was that hard to get them in to school. But without them, or the need to go to a job daily, I wouldn't hesitate! :D
(BTW, I've lived in areas where you park your vehicle at the oil and ride the tractor/4wheeler/sled back to the house when the weather is bad. Not quite the same as months on end, but it gives one a feel... And I haven't lived closer than 50 miles to a town of 5000 in over ten years. ;) )
Do you have a backup plan if the snowmobile conks out in the middle of the drive, Hal?hmm
I'm about like most of you guys- not too upset if I don't see anybody for a while --heck -- there's always CountryPlans.
We are 4 miles from a town of 1700 and about 40 miles from anything larger. That's close enough. As we are on a mountain ridge with only one road in it seems even more remote, but we have little of the cold to deal with. Plenty of wild critters around if there is ever a serious need for survival. In the real mountain cold like you have -- it wouldn't appeal to me. As desdawg is,-- I'm still a bit too trapped in the system.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 30, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
Do you have a backup plan if the snowmobile conks out in the middle of the drive
That too, is on my concern list. Stranded in winter is never a good thing. Deep snow makes for poor hiking. I hate snowshoes, though I've never tried any of the more modern variations.
This reminded me of another thing I forgot. ::)
Hauling in supplies with just a snowmobile has got to be a lot of fuss and bother. There are snow sled "trailers" available, but that's another thing to have to bother with...
We've talked about possibly living up there in the mountains most of the year after we retire and possibly selling the present suburban home. We'd reclaim one of our rental condos as our "city" and winter address. The hole in that is where do I keep my stuff in the garage/shop?
Other issues we had to deal with...Elk in the yard...bears in the trash...vandals, we got broken into twice in one year. Nothing stolen just broken glass and a mess.
Quote from: ScottA on November 30, 2007, 11:57:02 PM
Elk in the yard...bears in the trash...
Forgot about the wildlife...
Elk... not too bad until they start trashing trees in the fall >:( Okay if they come calling "in season" :)
Bears... I took to keeping a firearm handy for a while this fall. :-\
Every Elk around where we lived spent the hunting season at the Evergreen golf course about 15 miles away. Somehow they knew no one was allowed to hunt at the golf course. A local guy got arrested for shooting a bear that was in his house. Seems he was suposed to leave and let the bear do what it wanted acording to the law. I never will understand that.
Hal:
Good to hear from you again. Want to be a hermit, huh?
Well there's a long American history of making a life away from civilization. Thoreau, The guy on PBS who built the Alaska cabin and then documented it with a wind up movie camera... lots more we could come up with. Some are cultural heroes.
I love solitude too, but don't know what I would feel like after two weeks. I do think civilization is probably overrated and the mental fear of being isolated out there will likely be much scarier than the reality.
I guess the worst that could happen is you go all "Into the Wild" on us. :(
It's a very personal choice and hard to give advice to someone on... still, I've seen your cabin (http://www.countryplans.com/nash.html). It could be worse! ;D
I spent a winter in a firetower on a mountain top called reddish knob.
Your biggest problem is going to be cabin fever.
If your wife isn't 100%, your marriage will get a very tough test.
Animals aren't much of a problem except bears like to check everything out. ;D
(https://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/DSC_0007.jpg)
Don alluded to this, but it's a definate con: medical care.
Baby number #2 was born when we were living 50 miles from our nearest hospital. (The town, biggest in the area, was 2000 people). If was getting pretty exciting those last ten miles. ;)
I had a lodged kidney stone when we were living on a ranch 15 miles from pavement, and 70 miles from our nearest hospital (in a town of 1500). Weather was perfect, but the drive to town was still agonizingly long. And then, because renal failure was bigger than our little local hospital was equipped to handle, I was put on a plane and flown another 100 miles to Rapid City.
Now imagine that with a broken limb. Or heart attack or stroke where time is of the essence.
and for the worst-case scenario, imagine it as the middle January with 4 feet of snow on the ground...
just something to consider.
--Erin
Thanks for all the replies and the experiences and thoughts.
1. Snowmobiles are only one option for accessing this place in the winter. I would probably buy some kind of snow vehicle with a cab on it. I've looked up Cushman tracksters, Argos. What other vehicles with cabs do you all know of? ???
2. I'm 54. Worked since a sophomore in high school. In terms of medical access and cost, I'm at the point that I am no longer willing to sell my soul for the high cost of medical insurance and easy physical access to medical care. I've sold my soul for decades for security, comfort, and convenience ... and I'm no happier for it. :-[
3. Yeah, I'm scared to do it. But the alternative of remaining how and where I am ... well, I'll just say that the cost (and I don't mean $$) is getting too high to stay where I am.
4. Yes some would say that I am going to be a hermit, but there are others who live up there year round. I realize that it would be to my advantage to begin networking with full-timers up there for help when needed, and a face when the walls start closing in.
Thanks for all your input so far. Any further comments are welcome.
I've seen a variety of tracked cabbed snow vehicles over the years. Most if not all, that were available for purchase were too well used, or rather too badly used and too poorly maintained to be a real bargain. For my money there's no sene getting something old without going through everything with a fine toothed comb. It's one thing to break down spring thru fall (no snow). But it's a whole different ball of wax when the temperatures are below freezing and something happens. Been there, done that, didn't like it.
Bombardier, Thiokol, Tucker Sno-Cat are some of the names that come to mind. There's a guy with an LMC two seater, enclosed cab near me. It's an early 80's model. He paid over $10K for it and spent more on repairs. They're all larger than any Cushman I've seen.
What's the local snow history like? How many feet of accumulation, from what month to what month?
My one suggestion would be is to see if you an have on hand a supply of antibiotics, in case for example you get pneumonia. If you have asthma make sure you have something like predisone on hand. An expanded first aid kit is what I am thinking.
If you are going to try to cover all of the possible mishaps you probably ought to stay in town. My favorite movie is Jeremiah Johnson with Robert Redford. When Jeremiah had been a moving target for the entire Crow nation, one man at a time, and he was worn out and tired he ran into old Del, another mountain man. Del said "Jeremiah, maybe you should go down to a town." To which Jeremiah replied "I've been to a town Del." I jumped out of my seat and cheered with visions of lines of people, lines of cars, lines of lines and HOA's dancing in my head. It was a spiritual moment. ;)
If you want to go, go. If it get's to be too much come on back. It doesn't have to be a one way ticket and would probably do you some good. I know it would do me some. I am 59 by the way.
Desdawg
Quote from: desdawg on December 01, 2007, 06:27:24 PM
If you are going to try to cover all of the possible mishaps you probably ought to stay in town. .........My favorite movie is Jeremiah Johnson with Robert Redford. When Jeremiah had been a moving target for the entire Crow nation, one man at a time, and he was worn out and tired he ran into old Del, another mountain man. Del said "Jeremiah, maybe you should go down to a town." To which Jeremiah replied "I've been to a town Del." .....
You got me thumping on the table and watching that part of Jeremiah Johnson again during supper. Robert Redford's delivery of that line is spectacular. It comes off like "I'd rather be attacked, one by one, by all the Indians in the world then go back to a town."
You also touch on what has spoiled rural living. People move to a rural/remote area and almost immediately they muse... "you know how few of the roads are paved?"..... "you realize police response time is terrible and the fire department is nearly useless?"..... "We need a trauma center." .... '"Do you know how far we are from a decent cardiologist?"
I am the curmudgeon at large who ask why they moved out of the city.
I ride my bicycle almost every evening. I and a few others live down a dead end road surrounded by woods. I tell people that what is good about my ride is what's bad about my ride. I often ride for an hour without seeing a car, person or dog ( I do see lot's of deer and turkey and the occasional bear). It is really wonderful, A year ago in April I fell and broke my hip. It was about 45 min. before anyone found me and they had to drive out for a mile or so before they could get a cell phone signal.
I was back on my bike doing the same hilly ride 7 weeks after surgery. Do I think about another fall... of course. But, if I lived in the city a drunk driver or gang banger would likely have taken me out long ago.
BTW I am also 59.
Hey John, it's good to run across someone who is like minded and a Jeremiah Johnson fan. I think medical contingencies are over rated and 90% of all medical problems are psychosomatic. If you can think yourself sick why can't you think yourself well and just have everything be all right? The last time I was a patient in a hospital was the day I was born in one. When the medical profession needs a shot in the checkbook they just get Oprah or someone to talk about the symptoms for the latest and greatest disease and within a week or so 30% of all the housewives in America have developed the majority of the symptoms. Seems to work out real well for them. :)
I'm with you two.:)
If you like Jeremiah Johnson I recommend the PBS video on the Lewis and Clark expedition. There are so many parts that are either amazing or will cause you to be scratching your head. For example when they reached the Columbia river basin, home to the most plentiful salmon fishing in the world, the Lewis & Clark expedition refused to eat salmon and traded for dogs to eat.
There is a funny part near the end of part 1 where they got acquainted with grizz.
They conducted their expedition under extreme conditions, and with very limited knowledge of what they would encounter, yet lost only one man. He died, in all likelihood, of a burst appendix and he would not have survived even if the most advanced medical facilities of the day had been available.
Re. Jeremiah Johnson Did you pick up in the very beginning where he is " looking for a Hawken rifle .50 cal. or better. He settled for a .30 but it was a Hawken" ? A .50 would be a bit light .58 being preferred, but a .30 would be nearly useless. it would have fired a 110 grain round ball a low velocity. In the east it would be a squirrel or target rifle. Marginal at best for deer, WAY underpowered for elk and it would really piss off a bear. I never figured out if this was a mistake in the movie or the first evidence of what a pilgrim Jeremiah was at that stage.
I lived in remote areas most of my life raising three children on my own, sometimes they had a long bus ride, other times we homeschooled other times it was neighborhood car pool. It really isn't much different from living in town. I tend to be pretty choosy about who I associate with. Neighbors are important in the mountains but just as important in town, nothing takes the place of decent folks in the neighborhood. Don't worry about access to much, the rigs will break down anyway. Medical care? well that is laughable since chances are you will get worse once you see a doctor. The key issues are to focus on safety, warmth and water. Yes I have spent MONTHS melting snow and bringing buckets of water from a creek a half a mile away and yes I have had bears in my house before, even living in town is a hassle when your rig breaks down and you need to get dogfood at a moments notice. It is jsut all in the planning. Stock up the pantry, woodshed and insulate the water system as good as possible and go for it. There is always town to go back to if you get ill or tired. Some people actually make the home base in the mountains and just rent a small apt. in town for the worst months of winter.
This is what I use in the winter. Very dependable, and a cab with heater is also available.
It is a Yamaha Rhino.
(https://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd127/MaineRhino/Rhino%20in%20Winter/ice_med.jpg)
You got me thumping on the table and watching that part of Jeremiah Johnson again during supper. Robert Redford's delivery of that line is spectacular. It comes off like "I'd rather be attacked, one by one, by all the Indians in the world then go back to a town."
You also touch on what has spoiled rural living. People move to a rural/remote area and almost immediately they muse... "you know how few of the roads are paved?"..... "you realize police response time is terrible and the fire department is nearly useless?"..... "We need a trauma center." .... '"Do you know how far we are from a decent cardiologist?"
Amen, Amen, A M E N
BTW, it was really John Johnson. I have no idea why they decided on calling him Jemimah in the movie. If you can find it (I have a copy) of the book "The Crow Killer" it is what the movie was based on and was written based on interviews with Del Gue.
The characters were mixed up in the movie. The crazy lady was really Hatchet Jacks wife and he didn't die frozen to a tree....he just got tired of being married.
Johnson did go to a town at the end of his life where he became town marshall.
Great Reading.
Glenn, 50 was right with 54 being common after several barrel freshings. 30 (and I assume they mean .36) was like a 22 rimfire. Even in the East where there were no Grizzly's, .40 was The norm.
... A Rhino with tracks. Pretty cool. Do you switch back to wheels when the snow is gone, or is this used just for snow. I've seen the kits for ATV's as well.
Here's a source..
http://www.mattracks.com/snowcoach_information.htm
Yes, wheels in the summer and fall. This thing is a beast with the tracks on.... Yes, it can and does get stuck. That's why we carry a shovel and cooler when we go out. These are the TJD tracks.
Looks similar to my Bush Hog. I have a winch for it. I guess it's not like you could tie up to a bunch of snow and drag yourself out though.
Hey thanks for all the great comments and info provided to my original question.
The Yamaha Rhino and Mattracks look good.
Planning, timing, and preparation seem like they will be the best things to do in my case.
Any more comments on snow vehicles will be appreciated.
Thanks, again.
Hal
Glenn, got a pic of the Bush Hog?
I think I only have this one showing the dump bed tipped up or another similar. Winch is on the front but is also wired to switch to the back. Advertising video for it shows it pulling 21000 lbs. on the flat.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000560.jpg)
Oh, I thought you were using it as a snow vehicle.
No - I have a snow plow for it but will use it with the tires.
Glenn how often do you get snow and how much in CA where you are. Here now it is 21F, high wind and blowing snow. Pred is 1-3" overnight. Not real good as far as the construction goes. If I would have had about one more good week I could have had it sealed up and worked inside. No insulation yet but a wood stove would have taken the chill off and been nice to back up to.
We get snow about 2 or 3 times a year - usually a foot or less. Last year we had about 9 or 10 inches once and it hung around for several days. Not too bad - usually need to plow once or twice. I used the tractor 2 years ago -- Bobcat last year -- and will use the bush Hog this year if I get the plow put on -- should only take a couple hours or less the first time then just a few minutes after brackets etc are there.
I have about a mile and a quarter to plow.
That's plenty of snow for me.:)
As the one who really brought up medical care, I feel the need to point out I wasn't talking about getting your Prozac script refilled or any other imagined or minor ailment. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sprachlos/speechless-smiley-022.gif)
I'm talking about things like being 100 miles from a hospital when you fall out of the hay loft and break your leg (my husband was 9 when it happened).
Or just as far when you fall off the corral fence and break your collar bone (my father in law) and having to ride in the back of the pickup the entire way so you can stay horizontal.
Or having a lodged kidney stone threatening renal failure and being 160 miles from a hospital equipped to deal with it.
Or dying of a heart attack that probably could have been stopped had you been an hour closer to basic medical care.
You can pooh-pooh all you want guys. Or talk about how tough you are.
But accidents happen and emergencies should have a contingency plan. [noidea'
Erin, those are precisely the type of thing that came to my mind, when I mentioned "the availability of health care facilities".
Yes, where to live a personal choice. How remote to locate your residence is a personal choice. I'm not advocating that everyone should live within 1 few minutes of a hospital or paramedic assistance. It's simply a part of the equation, and I believe it becomes a greater part of the equation when there are children involved. It also becomes an important part of the decision when one of the 2 people involved is not so hot on the idea.
Long drives to a medical facility can be agonizing for the patient with a broken or badly infected something or other at the best of times. But it's not that concern that would worry me as much as the problems that winter may cast your way. Below zero temperatures, high winds, earlier loss of daylight and deeply drifted snow can make a relatively uneventful spring/summer/fall drive a winter nightmare.
OMMV
Most places I have been now have helicopter ambulance service. If you have access to a phone help may not be as far away as you think. A good friend of mine had a heart attack while working on his ranch. He felt it comming on and was able to get the phone in time. They had him in the ER in 45 minutes and the chopper had paramedics on board just like an ambulance. He was 65 miles from the hospital.
Scott
QuoteMost places I have been now have helicopter ambulance service.
Not where I live. Helicopters are still the domain of the "big" hospitals. The ones that you're flown out
to.
We had a neighbor fracture his pelvis two years ago at branding. They brought a helicopter in from a bigger hospital about 150 miles away. Not only was there the time it took to fly the distance, but more importantly was the time it took to guide it in, since they were in a remote location. And that was a nice, spring day.
Like I said, the distance isn't what should be the concern here, especially in light of the fact that he's only talking 20 miles from a town of about 5000. (By Nebraska standards, that's downright
urban! ;) ) The concern should be the weather/snow accumulation and how much more difficult that's going to make things.
QuoteHow remote to locate your residence is a personal choice.
Don, I agree completely. As mentioned, I've lived in some pretty remote areas myself. But you would never hear me pooh-pooh the very real issue of accessibility to basic medical care. And that's what concerned me.
Sorry, didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I was just voicing my opinion. Medical worrying just doesn't take a priority for me. Probably because I haven't ever needed to worry with it. I even had health insurance at one time. Complete total waste of money in my case. When I think of the projects I could have financed with that money............ d*
Desdawg said: "I even had health insurance at one time. Complete total waste of money in my case. When I think of the projects I could have financed with that money............ "
I'm glad you said what you did. [cool]
Some people think it is totally idiotic to not have health insurance.
Maybe I'm opening a can of worms that really isn't for countryplans.com, but I'd like to ask:
How long has the thing called "health/medical insurance" been around? Has it been around for 50 years? A hundred years?
Another question: How many people on the planet have health/medical insurance?
And another: If health/medical insurance has only been around for maybe a century or so, didn't we do OK before there ever was any?
Well, for one thing, if you go back a hundred years and more, many of us alive today would have already died. Some of our mothers would have died along with us during or shortly after giving birth.
I am not one who buys much insurance. We have some on the vehicles. We have home owner insurance. We have health insurance. We do not have life insurance anymore. We do not buy extended service warranties ever. We won't get into the needs for business insurance.
In 2006 the hospital and related bills for 2 non accident health issues that hit me in May and June, totaled $64,000. I paid very little of that out of my pocket. That's an outrageous amount of money and a subject for a different rant. I'm sort of glad I had the insurance. But that's just me. The older ya' get the more likely you might need it. OMMV.
Insurance is expensive, medical care is expensive. The two are related. Employer provided insurance has caused many people to seek medical attention for things that wasn't really required. I have a sniffle and I have insurance therefore I better go to the doctor. This kind of thing has driven the cost so high many can't afford it.
Then you have the doctors with triple booked appointments who don't have time to get to the root of the problem. So they just write precscriptions to address the symptoms without ever treating the disease. So you may walk in waiving your insurance card and not get what was needed anyway. But hey, it is all billable and they have to make their Mercedes payment. :(
Not having insurance is a roll of the dice. I guess I will deal with it as I do most things, one day at a time.
QuoteThe two are related. Employer provided insurance has caused many people to seek medical attention for things that wasn't really required.
I agree. And it
does make things more expensive for the unisured and even those of us who are insured but have to have high deductibles.
QuoteComplete total waste of money in my case. When I think of the projects I could have financed with that money...
And I can't help but think of the one time we
didn't have insurance.
My husband, at the time extremely active, healthy and 20-something, decided that was the time for his appedix to bite the dust.
Our final bill was $9G. It took us six years to get it paid off. :-\ On the other hand, the year my kidney stones caused so many problems was also the year I had our first baby. It was a $35,000 year for various medical institutions in Nebraska and South Dakota. The difference was we were insured this time. (Self-pay, of course) We paid a grand total of $1500.
I completely agree that our health insurance industry is a direct cause of our high medical costs. However, I'm not willing to risk bankruptcy in the hopes that our more recent good luck continues to hold out.(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
Again, I agree with Don. We insure for the basic, but necessaries.
Our final bill was $9G.
You got off easy Erin. Mine was around 26K...and that was for less than 8 hours in the hospital. I checked myself out as soon as I came to. >:(
Keep in mind, that was ten years ago, and it hadn't ruptured yet. And health care costs (as well as insurance premiums) have gone up exponentially in that time frame... :-\
One reason I am so safety focused is because I don't like to go tothe ER or any doctor. Common sense says if you get a sniffle start in quick withthe herb teas and lots of water. Yeah you might break an arm or whatever but that can also happen on a camping trip. If you know full well that you have a long long way to go to medical care you might just want to watch your step. We have a standing rule around here since the kids have been small if they take chances on thier bikes, snowboards or whatver and get hurt I am damn well selling their gear to pay the medical bill. If they get hurt during regular activities then OK I will pay but if they are taking jumps or not being safe they realize the consequences too. My friends on the other hand, those with medical insurance and medicaid simply see these things as part of life. Safety first is my motto. As far as antibiotics...well my youngest son is allergic to every single one on the market, I took so many for my kidneys over the years I am immune to thier benefits but not their drawbacks. So everybody has different things to consider when looking for a place to live but remember that up until 50 yerars ago medical care was a luxury not a neccessity and in most parts of the world it still is. IF I had to say there was one thing I absolutely had to have to be interested in buying land it would be readily accessible water. Water is a neccessity, everything else is a luxury.
QuoteYeah you might break an arm or whatever but that can also happen on a camping trip.
True. But statistically speaking, it's more likely to happen near home for the simple fact that you spend considerably more time there.
QuoteIf you know full well that you have a long long way to go to medical care you might just want to watch your step.
Watching your step will not prevent appendicitis or kidney stones. ;)
BTW, moderators? is there any way this chunk of the thread could be clipped out of here and moved to the OT area?
I think it's a good discussion, but feel bad that we're hijacking the original question...
I reviewed the previous posts and it is my opinion that this is still related to things you should consider if living in a remote area.
If I move this section consideration may not be given to the un-availability of medical care.
Our drift policies allow quite a large tolerance before breaking off to a new topic. This is the way we learn things we might not have learned or considered otherwise. Thanks for you concern and consideration though. :)
My grandmother had this saying. "Be prepared." Which ofcourse led her to carry around a strange selection of goods in her car everywhere she went. A can of corned beef, peanut butter, space sticks (remember those?) and the usual; string, tape, bandaids, flashlight etc. No matter what you needed she had it or something that you could improvise. We spent alot of time out in the sticks when we where kids. I even saw her bake homemade bread on a campfire once. How many people can still do that? She was nearly as at home in the sticks as she was in her kitchen. Point is if you think ahead you can be prepared for just about anything short of disaster.
Scott
Thanks for allowing the topic to continue, and I don't think that anyone has hijacked the original question.
"Watch your step." Going without insurance adds an element of risk to everyday living. I will have to pay more attention to what it is I am actually doing. I'll have more of an immediate presence to what it is I am doing moment to moment. That's something our culture doesn't want you to experience. Our culture is making the attempt to get rid of all risk, all hazards, AND ALL RESPONSIBILITY by enacting rules and regulations and by TRYING TO SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE so that we will continue to sacrifice our lives for the economic machine. I'm not against economy, but I am through selling my soul and how I want to live so that I can have health insurance. If I fall, crack and die, well at least it will be while I was working on my cabin ... nothing I'd rather be doing than that.
At the risk of turning this thread to philosophy, I'm at the point of moving from striving for longevity of life to one for quality of life.
If any one liner sums up my philosophy/experience of life, here it is: My anxiety comes not from my existence, but from the rules and values made up by human beings.
So do you carry auto insurance? How about home owners? ???
Quote from: hnash53 on December 05, 2007, 03:19:28 PM...I'm at the point of moving from striving for longevity of life to one for quality of life.
Nothing wrong with that. That has been our (K and I) philosophy of life for a long time. We'd rather not die today or next week, because we're still able to do and enjoy things. When the time comes that we can not do and enjoy things we want to, rather than be shuffled off to a nursing home we both want to die.
We've seen a grandmother slowly decline to where she was wheelchair bound & had nothing she enjoyed doing except watching TV. The nursing home kept her alive. She lived there for 10 years; died in her mid 90's. Every time I visited I vowed I'd never live like that. Too many of the residents just sat there like bumps on a log. Karen's mother (86) is presently in a healthcare (nursing home) facility and the one constant over the past month+ is her "I want to die" refrain.
Society by and large, the medical community in particular, has lost sight of the quality of life issue to a great degree, I feel. We have the technology to sustain life well beyond what I consider practical in some cases. I'm not advocating cessation of care once someone reaches some government committee decided point. But people should talk more about what is important in life; where they draw lines in the sand and so on. And others should respect those wishes.
K & I have talked about these issues more and more in the past half dozen years or so. We both know each others wishes very well. Our son and our other extended family members know what we want. We've got everything documented with copies in several places; our medical files included.
The real difficulty comes when the quality line on life's graph descends below your predetermined quality point. It is illegal for anyone to assist you in dieing. You need a plan.
All the above really has nothing to do with the risks of living in remote places. Two separate issues in my mind.
Erin,
I DO carry home owner's insurance on the cabin, yes, a necessary evil but one I'm willing to do.
I carry just liability insurance on older vehicles ... required by law, and a reasonable thing to require. I have a 2005 town and country van that only has 12K miles on it that I bought for cash in an estate sale so I will have comprehensive/collision on it for awhile.
I don't have any life insurance but I do have a modest retirement that if something did happen and I died, there would be enough for my family to pick up the pieces and have enough money to buy a modest home and be free of any mortgages.
I plan to live off the monthly earnings of the retirement (so the principle remains untouched) and some kind of seasonal work or talents that I can sell.
High hopes.
QuoteI DO carry home owner's insurance on the cabin, yes, a necessary evil but one I'm willing to do.
And
Quoteliability...a reasonable thing to require
why? ???
Personally,
I have the above-mentioned for the same reason I have heath insurance; I'm not willing to risk financial disaster because of something that I can prevent with a monthly premium.
But I'm not seeing
your logic, i guess... (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
I live inthe northwest and a lot of people who live in close proximity to services are without due to the recent storms all the health insurance in the world isn't going to help if the rescuers can't get down the roads so fresh water is a very important thing to stay healthy. I bet there are more than a few who wish they had some petro stashed away too, and perhaps a chain saw, cell phone, batteries, etc. remote living is a lot like being prepared for disaster, that is because if you are not prepared every day will seem like a disaster. I took a bad fall yesterday and thought I had broken both knees did I even think of going to the doctor? No I just got the ibuprophen quick and I am fine except for some lingering pain. My daughter broke her foot a couple years ago and my son broke his wrist and although they both went to the ER it was the ibuprophen that actually made the difference. As a matter of fact the Dr. on call was so high my poor sons splint on his wrist was loose and flapping all over luckily my daughter had good emergency training and was able to put it back right. Needless to say my son refused to go for the follow up. all's well that ends well. Daughters foot was set right but she took the cast off long before it was supposed to come off due to it getting wet and they refused to put another one on. but it all worked out fine she walks still. It's amazing, no limp or anything. My oldest son though that is a different story...he broke his little finger playing basketball, they set it and gave him some real effective pain meds, so yes you guessed it, he broke it again, and again and again and again until the surgeon refused to operate anymore by then he was strung out and it has been a challenge to get him back on track ever since. I told him that damn finger is staying broken because I am not driving the additional 300 miles round trip to see another surgeon. How's that for primative???
I've known a lot of people to break fingers and not seek a doc. Just tape it to the good ones and it'll heal. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
For that matter, my husband broke a foot a few years ago and just wrapped it tight and kept going. (One of those years when we were over an hour from a hospital)
Quoteall the health insurance in the world isn't going to help if the rescuers can't get down the roads
Tanya, there's actually two separate tangents going here.
Accessibility to medical services and the off-shoot from that, choice to carry insurance or not.
well the choice to carry insurance or not is an easy one fo rme NOT. Even if I could get insurance I couldn't afford it last time I checked the premium would be over $900 per month just for myself, I have a long history of kidney failure. Lack of accessibility helps though the last damn thing a sick person needs is company, especially weak company that can't make it down a difficult road. .
QuoteLack of accessibility helps though the last damn thing a sick person needs is company, especially weak company that can't make it down a difficult road. .
I guess I'm not really understanding what you're getting at here... ???
So far as availability of insurance with pre-existing conditions; that's about the only reason I would support universal health care, personally.
I know
way too many people who either can not be insured, or have a rider attached to a pre-existing. (Part of why I don't get it when people who can be insured, choose not to, actually...)
We have a good friend who has severe back pain. He needs surgery. Just turned thirty, father of two, but he has a rider for his back so anytime something serious goes wrong with his back, he's not covered by their insurance. :-\
Quote from: tanya on December 06, 2007, 12:11:57 PM
Even if I could get insurance I couldn't afford it last time I checked the premium would be over $900 per month
Here is a good reason to not get insurance Erin. Kinda like making a car payment or a house payment for someone else and at the end of the day you have two hands full of air and a cancelled check. Like I said somewhere else it is kind of like going to the casino-the house always wins.
QuoteHere is a good reason to not get insurance Erin
So does this hold true for other types of insurance? Liability on your car, or homeowners? How about groceries? Or are those things that just
have to be paid?
Like I said, that's the one reason I'd support universal healthcare; to make it available for those who can't currently obtain or afford it.
More importantly, this tangent was started by people who
choose to be uninsured, remember? ;)
We are insured, which may be a good choice for living in a remote area, but we don't have to like paying for it.
Insurance of any kind is legalized gambling - sometimes even mandatory legalized gambling in the case of California, unless you are here illegally, in which case apparently you don't need it and it is illegal for the cops to ask if you have it. I guess that is because they have no assets and can't pay for damages or deaths anyway.
It is the houses game and they are always going to win. You are betting against yourself - betting that you are going to lose so in case of a big loss you will possibly win. It's a dirty game made that way by lawyers and a medical and pharmaceutical industry that realizes there is a major amount of money to be made off of the health tragedies that befall the population. People will nearly sell their soul to try to pay for good health. Big business knows this.
How much you want to spend for security while living in remote areas is a personal choice. Do you want to live knowing that you have a security blanket and may not die if something major happens even though you may die penniless after the medical industry has finished with you and your insurance...or do you want to go ahead and keep the money and live life in the pursuit of happiness, knowing that you have already lived a decent life.... living it for being a slave to industry , lawyers and the system may not be worth it to you.
You may be happy knowing that you have lived a decent life and don't want to spend any more of your precious time supporting the bastards.
The tangent continues.
Problem is if I started a new thread for every tangent we considered that is related to the original question, we would have a million parts of topics that were of no use to anyone.
The search function of the board will find any information related to the searchers interest no matter which topic it is under. I will remove inappropriate material. I will move off topics that are unrelated and warrant a new thread.. I do not control the posters keyboards or thoughts. I am not the thought police and any thing that is remotely related to a thread will be left there.
However, just because I have not separated a small portion of a topic from a thread that is of major interest to you, don't let that stop you from starting a new topic with an appropriate heading so that that particular topic with it's tangents can be discussed in full. I try to run things here so everyone can get the information they are interested in.
Nearly all things in our community interest can be discussed with things not remotely related to building being discussed in the off topics section. This is the agreement John offered. If I assist with things not related to his plans we can do this. He maintains the Plans Support section and comes over here when time allows. We help there when there is something we can contribute. Thanks to Don for volunteering to moderate also and to PEG for all the technical support suggestions he offers.
Of course this board would be nothing if it were not for all of the members contributions and ideas so here's a big thank you from me for all of you being here. I hope you all find this board mutually beneficial. Tangenty, but mutually beneficial.:)
I spend around 6 hours a day volunteering time without pay to keep this board straight and spam free and cannot afford to make it into a full time job by analyzing each topic and tangent and separating them into sub-topics. I can be coerced into doing that for around $250K per year. A real bargain. :)
Until the check arrives, it is necessary for me to hold down a regular full time contracting job when there is something to do.
As for myself, I kinda like it when we go off on different areas of a subject - if that is what is called a "tangent" - usually some additional valuable info on the subject will be posted because people didn't stay strictly in the "box" c*
Here is a link I posted regarding Universal Health Insurance. You might want to add your 2 cents to that, Erin - as it looks like the politicians are swiftly moving in that direction...
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3638.0
QuoteHow much you want to spend for security while living in remote areas is a personal choice.
I guess I don't see health insurance, or the lack of, as having anything whatsoever to do with living in remote areas.
Your appendix is just as likely to rupture if you live in suburbia as if you live in the sticks.
And you're just as likely to go bankrupt paying out of pocket for chemo whether you live five miles from the treatment center or 500...(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
So far as tangents, I tend to think that's what makes a BB community healthy is when conversations are allowed to run as naturally as possible. But some boards do try to keep things as compartmentalized as possible (which of course is why most online communities have multiple boards to hit various interests). i just didn't know how picky we were going to be. :)
No problem, Erin. I'm anti-authoritarian so try to let the boards run pretty free without a lot of interference from me. It saves me a lot of time and stimulates fruitful thought as well as keeps me from ticking off others because I moved their reply. Things tend to go out of context a bit also if they get split off, so I try to balance my decisions and only split it when continuity is not dependent upon previous portions of the thread.
I avoid forums that allow rudeness, snippyness and such. I avoid clubs where politics destroys the enjoyment of the members, so run this forum in the manner I myself enjoy. I remove rude members or chase them off, because I want to attract the type of people I enjoy being around. I don't want any new - maybe timid member who hasn't spent time on a forum to fear posting because someone may jump on their case. I don't allow so called flaming etc. It is childish and for other forums.
Now -- I haven't quite come to a solution about allowing crazy people here, as I would have to kick myself off. Still working on that one. [crz].
So --- permission to speak freely -- at ease. Enjoy the show.:)
I agree that the choice to buy insurance of any type does not really have anything to do with the choices needed to live off in the boonies. A person has all the same insurance decisions no matter where they live.
That said, I believe the only type of insurance that is mandated by law is automobile liability insurance. :-\ Then there's also what might be required by contract; mortgage or some kind of loan.
Other than that all insurance is a matter of choice or conscience. Whether or not to purchase any kind of other insurance needs to be assessed with a look at the risks, benefits and costs involved.
Some types of insurance make sense for certain times. Things like collision and comprehensive on a newer vehicle, like our '06 Honda, makes sense to me. My '99 Jeep is at the point where the payback for collision benefits from the insurance company may be insufficient compared to the premium demanded.
As for home owners insurance, the house would cost too much to replace if it burned down. Sure, in a suburban location it's not likely to burn to the ground. But in my assessment, the cost of the insurance is low enough to warrant insurance. If a person does not want to carry the home owners insurance, that's a personal decision. Though I do I think they should ask themselves if they'd be happy with whatever the Red Cross would offer them though if disaster struck. Or have really good relatives.
Life insurance is another that demands a cost/risk/benefits analysis. Our term life policies that were purchased many years ago at cheap pricing will be taking a quantum leap in premiums at the end of this year. We are allowing them to expire as the need is less now that our son is grown and on his own, and we have no debts and have money saved. If one of us died we'd miss the other, but wouldn't need the death benefit provided by an expensive policy. If we both died, well we don't care to be paying out premiums for someone else to benefit from.
Health insurance to me is another necessity. Again I look at it as a "could I financially survive a big time medical crisis"? If I knew that everything would be more or less normal healthwise and that I'd drop dead suddenly, with no lengthy expensive treatment needed, I wouldn't bother. But I already have a good idea about that given my personal recent medical history. So we pay the man and grin and bear it. Fortunately for us, I worked for the bank just long enough to be qualified to remain as a group insurance member. I have to pay my own premium, but as long as I wish to pay, I can keep the plan. And to me/us, it's worth the payments.
One of the things that bothers me about health insurance though are the problems encountered by those who do not work for big corporations. If you go to work for a big corp, you can not be refused coverage. But if you are a sole proprietor, etc, you have to go through the battery of medical questions and tests. Heaven help you if you've had health issues. Things like that make me wonder if health care should maybe be "socialized". In NM there is a state plan where the uninsured can purchase coverage; pricey but no refusals, no exemptions of coverage. Another bothersome thing about people not carrying health insurance is that in the event of an uninsured needing medical care, many times services are rendered and the costs absorbed by the "system"; that's you and I who do pay premiums.
To me those are the important choices regarding insurance. All other types of insurance I can think of off hand do not make sense in a cost/benefit/risk sense. But that's my opinion. I know folks who purchase service agreements for far too many things and are poorer for it. I can always afford to buy a new DVD player if one breaks down... in fact after a couple years you might even desire a new one with the latest capabilities.
That's pretty much our philosophy too, Don.
I should have full coverage for my '98 Metro? Why?!? lol
We don't even have life insurance for the simple fact that we currently live/save on a single income and were one of us to die tomorrow we'd have to do some shuffling around, but the survivors would continue on on one income...
QuoteAgain I look at it as a "could I financially survive a big time medical crisis"?
This is basically the question we've asked ourselves of anything insurable. Could we financially survive my $800 car being totalled out? Yep. So no comp/collision on the car.
Could we financially survive if our rented home burned down? Probably, but renter's insurance is really cheap, so why not have it? Could we survive financially a big time medical crisis? Nope. We couldn't even survive a mediocre-time medical crisis. ;) So we have health insurance (with a fairly high deduc. to offset the monthly premiums).
'Tis all a balancing act.
QuoteHeaven help you if you've had health issues. Things like that make me wonder if health care should maybe be "socialized".
Precisely my point with my friend who is becoming a stove-up old man at 30. :-\
Just to clear up a few things,
1. I pay liability insurance on my automobiles because it is required by law in Wyoming. It's about $12-15 a month.
2. As others mentioned regarding health insurance premiums, $600-900 a month is a lot of money. It's enough money per month that people who decide to pay it often end up sacrificing a lot of intangibles ... freedom, not slaving for 40-60 hours per week, and living a life chosen for oneself, rather than having a lifestyle forced upon you by our culture to serve the economic machine.
3. I think the pros/cons of medical/health insurance is applicable in a discussion about living in remote areas. It's often that very thing that keeps some people from making favorable choices for themselves.
4. And finally, I watched "Sicko" by Michael Moore over the weekend. Now some people may find a few inaccuracies in his work, but the overall message of the movie is true. Our culture wants us to be sick, to be afraid, be neurotic ... all because it's easier to control us, and it's making boatloads of money for the already wealthy. I'd encourage you all to watch it.
Best wishes to you all, and thanks for all the input.
Hal
I think you've got it, Hal.:)
Sad but true.
It has been an interesting discussion Hal. It opened up some discussion that may have otherwise never risen to the surface. If you read some of the financial publications like "Money" magazine health insurance is a must have item on most agendas. But if you must have it, no if's and's or but's you are opening the door to be charged whatever rates the companies want to charge. Even with competition for the business the bar is set high before the bidding begins. There is something really wrong with that picture. I don't like being held hostage.
The only ballot I ever get to cast that seems to carry much weight is when I sit down at my desk and write a check or choose to not sit down and not write a check. All of my other opinions seem to get lost somewhere unnoticed. LOL.
I will have to see if I can find the Sicko movie somewhere.
QuoteI think the pros/cons of medical/health insurance is applicable in a discussion about living in remote areas. It's often that very thing that keeps some people from making favorable choices for themselves.
While I will agree there are things I'd much rather spend our insurance premiums on, I don't think it's responsible to do so. We happen to live in a very remote area and are raising two kids on an income that is considered low enough to qualify for welfare. Yet we still manage insurance.
It's tight, but not nearly as much as bankruptcy would be.(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif)
QuoteI pay liability insurance on my automobiles
So you wouldn't have it were it not required by law?
The thing of it is guys, you don't have to like the system. But it is what it is.
And I'm not willing to risk financial ruin. We're too close to the line as it is.
Or even
non ruin. For example, we have very little in our retirement accounts because we've only started saving in our thirties. We spent out twenties paying off my husband's appendix. ::)
I honestly hope those of you who gamble with this continue to win. :)
We have it all because we are trapped -- enslaved by the system. Can't afford not to because of the consequences but don't have to like it. :(
One thing I have found is that it is a good idea to switch companies every few years. Don't get stuck on one agent because about the time they think you are unswervingly loyal they woill start sticking the shaft to you. Let them know you are going to shop them before each renewal. They have a lot of latitude on pricing in lots of cases.
I have saved multiple thousands in the last two years by leaving the old company who has been greatly expanding and going for a company that didn't think they owned me and was willing to work for me.
At the old company, we were dropped to an account manager who actually hung up on Sassy because she tried to ask him questions about the account that he felt he didn't have to answer. Very bad attitude - just wanted the money.
We now have better coverage with good companies for less money.
Most times you will get cheaper insurance if you go to independent brokers that handle insurance for multiple companies rather than State Farm, Farmers insurance Group, etc. Most of them will shop the best rates for you. Not a rule though so best I can say is to shop them.
Good point Glenn.... ;)
Being in the insurance biz ourselves (not sales) we see it almost daily, where the agents no longer care about servicing their clients. Very often, clients will get pertinant info from us which they never received from their agents, or the agent was unable to answer. Unfortunately, we are very limited as to what we can tell them, as we are not insurance agents or in any position where we can offer any binding legal advice. :-X
Most people we deal with never thought about shopping their insurance needs, they think that the price given for certain coverage is the same at all agents. WRONG!
Health insurance in Maine is another matter..... No competition is a very bad thing! [frus]
Thanks for confirming what I have learned the hard way over the years, MaineRhino.:)
Erin, I'd probably go ahead and pay auto liability without protest even if not required by law. It's not much money, and since motor vehicles can maim and kill, I think it's a cost that I can justify.
What is difficult to justify is the $600-900 per month compared to the $13-15 per month for auto liability. Fees that high are what hold us (in Desdawg's words) "hostages" to a system that is immoral.
It's my understanding that high deductible ($2500+) insurance is considerably less than $500-750 deductibles. Perhaps....
Catastrophic illness, disease, accidents.... Oh well, is it so catastrophic that one dies?
Maybe I should withdraw that question for it might lead us even further astray.
I've really enjoyed the comments and perspectives from you all.
Happy Holydays! Not that I'm in to "holy" anything...just a wish for a great time for all of you.
Quote from: hnash53 on December 11, 2007, 12:12:36 AM...that high deductible ($2500+) insurance is considerably less than $500-750 deductibles. Perhaps....
You can find deductibles as high as $10K for those who are truly interested in strictly being covered against catastrophies. It doesn't take too much out of the ordinary to het a hospital bill to hit that amount these days. Having a $10K debt load would still be preferable to $50-60K or greater.
OMMV
Merry Christmas
I guess I have to add my 0.02.
I have homeowners insurance on the burb house. I do not on the barn house because I can rebuild it out of my pocket if need be.
I do not have life insurance because I've already seen to it that my wife will be cared for and have a higher standard of living than if she were counting on insurance.
I do have major med. The deductible is 6,000.00. The sticky part here is that I wouldn't have it if it were only me. Fortunately, it is not. I can be irresponsible with my health and life but I cannot with my wifes. No matter if I get sick and die or if she gets sick and we spend everything on her care, it still has an catastrophic effect on her. I won't let that happen.
Quote from: peternap on December 11, 2007, 11:17:43 AM
.... it still has an catastrophic effect on her. I won't let that happen.
That's part of the
we, the
couple package. Caring and respecting each other.
Peternap,
It may be none of my business, but I am curious what the monthly/quarterly health insurance payment is with a $6K deductible?
If none of my business, it's cool. Just curious.
Hal ???
$248 for a $10K deductible policy on a female 50-60, issued through the state of NM health insurance alliance. That's been setup by the state government especially for those who are uninsurable under standard policies for whatever reason.
It's 360.00 a month Hal. That's through Anthem. I shopped it again this year and can't beat it.
BTW, a good place to get an idea of costs is here:
http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/
They'll show you options for numerous carriers in all levels of coverage/decutibles/premiums and it'll already be specific to your age and location.