Friday Morning - November 18th, 2011
I am ready to put up the walls on my 20x30 countryplan with loft. I was planning on doing them 16" on center but now I'm wondering if 24" is ok? I can save time and money if it is.
I believe 2x6 walls can be on 24" centers. Usually only 2x4 walls (when allowed) have to be on 16" centers.
I always think "When in doubt frame on 16oc"
If you add it up I doubt the savings would be much more than $100, if that. I'd go with 16 OC for a couple of reasons. 1/2 inch drywall will be stronger and have less chance to get a little wavy if on 16 centers. Secondly I think it would make for a stouter wall, some of the houses I've worked on using 24 centers seemed a little spindly to me. I am building the 20 by 30 with loft and the door is located in the load bearing wall. Whenever the door is closed that wall does shake some, due partially ( I think) to my roof design and the open living area. Yours should be stronger with the trusses that I think you have planned but I say that the small extra cost is well worth it for a stronger wall.
in my opinion 24" oc isnt worth the savings. also if you are letting in a ledger to hold up your loft floor joists i would want 16" oc under those regaurdless.
the bigger decission in my opinion is 2x4 or 2x6?
I haven't framed a 2x4 exterior wall in 30 years and much prefer 16" oc. Often enough what you save in using less framing is burned up by having fewer break options with the plywood and sheetrock.
One thing to remember when wall framing with vaulted ceilings is that the gable ends should be balloon framed to avoid a weak hinge running across the wall. If the truss supplier has built a gable truss this pretty much guarantees that a weak hinge is in the wall. In that case the best solution is probably to run an LVL horizontally from side wall to side wall and anchor the ends very well to those walls. This makes a nice plant or nic nack shelf but is actually reinforcing that weak spot from wind or just from annoying vibration.
if you baloon frame the end gable wall, in what order do you build it. do you build the front and rear wall then cut a rafter or two to frame up to or do you just use math to figure out how long each stud should be? im not sure my math is that strong. lol
i have to have a tripple or quadrouple stud running up the middle to support a ridge beam. i was planning to not use ballon framing except for that support stud. would that be enough to reinforce a hinge point?
i know 2x6 is the norm but i just found out i have a time frame to get dried in per my permit. and i am planing to use spray foam.insulation so im considering 2x4 to cut a little cost and speed the dry in time
Saturday Morning - November 19th, 2011 (Wall Build Day #1)
Very good input from everyone, I am grateful for it. I WILL go with 16" o/center for my wall studs. I was planning to do that anyway but I started to think about the savings but didn't realize the small difference.
Thanks for your comment Don_P, I've never heard about that balloon framed gable end hinge problem before. I would like to see a diagram or picture as an example of that horizontal LVL on the gable end. I'm actually rethinking my truss situation and like the idea of building those site built trusses that are in John's plans.
Thank you for the ledger reminder CjAl, very good point. I've seen 20x30 with loft builds here where they use a 'sistered stud' to hold up the loft joists instead of the let-in-ledgers, that seems easier to me.
Ok dug, thanks for pointing out that the savings in going 24" instead of 16" is so minimal. Also, I have thought about the wider spacing between the joist because of 24". You almost have to be careful of how much you lean against a wall in fear of breaking the drywall. I plan on using boards on the wall on the inside. Again, I may not go with buying those 24 manufactured trusses that I got a price quote of $2,700 for. I think I would just like to build the site built trusses according to John's plans that I'm following. I'll build them up on the loft and raise them up from there.
OlJarhead: good point sir. I like your, 'When in doubt, frame on 16"' comment.
I am having second thoughts about going with the 'Open Beam' / Cathedral ceiling because of its time and difficulty for me as a beginner. It seems so much easier to just build those site built trusses according to my plans and then putting in the ceiling and having an attic. I going to paste this thought/question in the general forum to get more comments about it.
Once again, what a great resource and thank you all.
On a 16x24 stick framing the ceiling isn't difficult :) Folks here will steer you right in making the birds mouth etc and in the end you might be very happy :) I am!
For the weak hinge at the plate in the wall... mentally turn the wall on it's side and think of it as a floor. The wind provides the loading to a wall much like the people and furniture load a floor. The load per square foot is lower but can approach the load of a sleeping room. The plate crossing the wall is a double 2x6 girder spanning without supports the width of the building. If there is a floor or ceiling in that immediate area, there is a is deep beam, a diaphragm reinforcing that hinge. If there is nothing there then it should be balloon framed with studs deep enough to take the load or the "girder" needs to be beefed up. Just like a girder the supports need careful consideration.
If you will be framing a simple attic there is no need to raise up on kneewalls, install ledgers, build trusses, etc. It would be stronger and simpler to just install ceiling joists and conventional rafters. I drew something up last night but cannot get it to load right now. Do watch the overhangs and window/door heights with this approach.
Thank you Don_P, that really explains things well.
Let's see if this works;
(http://i40.tinypic.com/fydemr.jpg)
This is a rough sketch of a 20x30 with 12/12 pitch and conventional roof /ceiling joist framing. This is simple and strong. The attic floor joists are 2x12x20' I drew the rafters at 2x8 assuming this is unconditioned space, if conditioned I'd bump them to 2x12. Remember with a 12/12 that the overhang drops 1' for every foot it goes out... it can get into the windows and doors fast, one reason garage or 10' studs might be a good idea for the walls.
Thanks Don_P, that is a really good drawing and it reminds me to draw more in sketchup.
Yes, the walls for John's 20x30 with loft are 10' high. Thanks for pointing out that the rafters can 'get into' the windows and doors quickly. You mentioned the rafters at 2x8 for unconditioned space and that you would bump them to 2x12 if conditioned. What do you mean by that?
By the way Don, I'm going to post this pdf file I found on the web, I'll post it in countryplans 'General' section in the morning. I believe it originated from a 'Fine Home Builders' magazine. It really helped me a lot and it's by a pro framer named 'Larry Haun'. He's written many books and also has some really good DVD's about framing. I'll also direct you to a couple videos of Larry doing some framing on youtube. The Roof Framing videos come from Larry's DVD series. This is the best stuff I've seen so far!
Here's all the links:
10 Rules for Framing: http://www.mrmachinist.net/20x30/framing.pdf (http://www.mrmachinist.net/20x30/framing.pdf)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oIq-asaOEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oIq-asaOEk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ss8xfXKAY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ss8xfXKAY)
Thanks once again Don, you have been a great help.
A conditioned space is a heated and/or cooled space. A cathedral ceiling would be an example of a conditioned space. A "normal" attic where the insulation is in the attic floor (ceiling to the room below) would be an unconditioned space.
more room for insulation in a 2x12 if its a heated space.
thats probably the best series of videos on youtube. there is a good one i had bookmarked for laying out rafter cuts but i cant find it now.
Thanks CjAl, let me know when you find that video for laying out rafter cuts.
I have been checking out Larry Hauns videos and they really help me understand the methods. Now if I can only remember it all when I'm out there on the deck putting up my walls, that would be great!
I've also looked at many of Larrys books, they probably should be included on our countryplan list?
Thank you again.
Not to steal your thread but........
Sad note Larry Haun past away this year as his new book was brought into publication :( I just loved him and his sort of make sense wit and wisdom. He loved to plant things and had a very caring heart. He stood up for hard work and love of outdoors and nature.
Larry Haun passed away just before noon on Monday, Oct. 24, at the age of 80. A legendary carpenter, longtime Fine Homebuilding contributor and blogger, and prodigious book author, Larry began his building career on the Nebraska prairie at the tender age of 17—and kept building for the next 63 years. In the past few years, he has been "retired," which in Larry's case meant building houses for Habitat for Humanity and wheelchair ramps for people in hospice care; teaching; and generally passing along the wisdom of a compassionate life well lived.
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/20642/larry-haun-1931-2011