Was walking the land I recently acquired and following a gentle ravine downwards towards the creek, happened upon this concrete square. My builder and I had been talking this month about putting in a well. Here was appeared to be a rectangular cistern of some sort from days gone by. Inside is clear water and a small pipe on the downward sloping side was dripping water. Some timbers had rotted and a piece was laying in the water as were a few shingles.
Does this look like a well? Anything else it might be..drywell? Is there a way to have the water checked out, and if it's a well, rehabilitate this to something useful? My camp is 1000ft away and upgrade slightly so I doubt I can incorporate it. Just curious if anyone can ID this.
(https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee314/glennjakobsen/fall%202010/082.jpg)
(https://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee314/glennjakobsen/fall%202010/083.jpg)
Or a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqisBGxFaU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqisBGxFaU)
My guess is a cistern like you mentioned, from the 50's or so. It's poured concrete looks like they used 1x6 to form it up, steel / black iron pipe etc Any old foundations near by? You mentioned shingles , maybe blown in from a old building? Maybe a small roof / cover was over the cistern?
Highly unlikely it's a well that you could use. You mention having a builder so you "camp" more than likely isn't a down and dirt hunting camp. The water might be good from washing and the such but not something a person would want to drink without boiling or treating for parasites.
Could have been a "spring box" with a roof covering.
Looks like a spring box to me. Possibly there was a cabin below - the pipe may have been leaving the box rather than filling the box. Hard to tell with the info we have. I'd look down stream for an old cabin site or possibly just an old stock water tank.
Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 21, 2010, 11:22:36 AM
Could have been a "spring box" with a roof covering.
You should pump it dry and see if the water re-enters from the ground. Sure sign that it is a spring rather than a cistern.
Aha! That's a great idea. I will pump it out, dig the junk out of it, and see how quickly it refills. The fact that it's situated near the bottom of a gully probably meant it was a great spot for water. I'd imagine even if the brook is dry, the lowest point is still more likely to have ground water?
The bolts in the concrete seem to show there were walls at one time. The shingles, a roof. No cabins in sight but there was once a logging camp here in the 50's long since gone, the bridge washed away. Is there a difference between a shallow well, and a spring box?
A shallow well could go into a static water aquifer for the necessary depth, where a spring box would keep a spring flowing directly from the ground from being contaminated.
My spring box is centered over a fracture in the ground rock that is producing flowing water at the rate of about 1/2 gallon per minute.
If I dirty the water cleaning out the spring box, I will see clean water flowing into the dirtied water. Mine produces a bit of silt over the years.
A well on the other hand may not show a flow of water and may just settle out if dirtied, but some wells do have a flow underground.
A spring box (or spring house depending on "size") was basically a refrigerator. Butter, cheese, milk, that sort of storage. With a lid on it again your beer would stay cold just hang them in the water. Way cool discovery!
It must have some kind of flow going on, it looks fairly clean. :-\
The ground here is fairly dry and downward sloping. It's at least 6 feet higher than the boggy area down towards the creek. The water table is either really close to the ground, or it's a spring, no? As the ravine seems to indicate a long dried up brook, does groundwater typically follow contours seen above? If so, would that be called a spring?
It is very doubtful that someone would go to the effort of building a spring box in a stream. The spring is basicly an underground water stream that makes it to the top of the ground. Generally from a nearby elivated landscape such as the side of a hill or a bank. Although there have been some that flow directly up in a level setting.
Water in a stream does not alway flow on top. I have a stream that in dry parts of the year will typically disappear from sight for 100-300 ft at a time and reappear as a pool then disappear again, The water is always present in that type of stream bed but actually drops below the surface and flows. I have removed gravel in the dry season and after removing 1-2' the water is present.
Water can also be pushed up through ground faults, from a higher mountain range miles away. Some of ours is likely pressurized from the Sierra Nevadas. My spring is about 1/3 the way down from the top of the ridge of the mountain and yet there are no water sources above me on the mountain. Still it flows year around.
It is quite common for water to drain toward ravines - ground faults - and follow them. Quartz here is associated with the faults and water is often associated with the faults the quartz shows up in.
That makes sense. Why put a well in a streambed? There is higher ground all around. As for quartz, as you may know Glenn, Herkimer County is home to the "Herkimer Diamond", one big ole quartz. Must be something in the water ;) Now I wonder if the contractor really needs to bring in the local "water witch" to dowse my lots. I don't know much about dowsing, but look what I stumble on just going for a walk.
Give witching a try on your own. Find a welding supply and buy two 36" pieces of 1/8" brass welding rod. Bend a 90 deg leg approximately 6- 8" long on each rod. Now comes the fun part. Using your own yard as a practice field. You can locate known water or septic lines. Once you get the feel for the rods and how they react you can witch your own property. I generally grip each rod (short leg) just tight enough to keep the end of the long leg level and the allow free movement. By slightly tilting your hands up and wrist down also helps level the rods. Now while holding them level and parrallel to each other approximately 12" apart start walking. When the rods begin to pass over a water source they will start pulling toward each other. The stronger the source the more rapidly this will happen. If there is any measurable amount of water present the rods will actually cross each other rapidly and end up 90 degrees to their original position as you were walking before any water was detected. Some even use forked limbs made of peach or willow trees they require a different technique. The downside is that some people are not able to operate dowsing rods. Not really sure why. ???
When I do dowsing I will make multiple passes over the property in a grid fashion. Starting east to west and then changing north to south walking approximately 10-15 feet parrallel to my previous line. There is no significance to magnetic direction but merely showing the grid process to ensure that you have adequately covered the area.
It certainly looks like a springbox. I get one of our summer neighbor's cleaned up and going every year, it is a setup that would work for your situation if this one pans out. The spring is a healthy seep from the side of a streambank and has a small springbox there. It is alongside the creek but not in the water, the water in the springbox is from a spring that feeds the creek... a subsurface tributary of the creek. The outflow pipe exits the springbox and continues downstream a bit to a spot where a cistern is buried. This is a septic tank with no baffle, just a hollow concrete box. The outflow from the spring drops into the tank and an overflow exits slightly below the spring inflow pipe. This gives about 1000 gallons storage and no water backup into the spring pipe, it just gravity feeds and drops into the cistern. In the bottom of the cistern is a submersible pump. The pump pushes water uphill to the cabin a few hundred feet away.
Whenever possible I prefer a well, but a spring is usually a lot cheaper to develop.
walk slowly to give your rods time to 'react' to the change in fields they are passing over. Walk too fast and you may miss what your rods are picking up.
frazoo
I'll give dowsing a try, but the locals swear by an old lady who they say has a track record of over 90%. How strong is the pull when you feel it?
As for the springbox, I'll be wanting to clear it out and pump it dry, then see how long till she fills back up. Could be, this will serve as a feed for a cistern this side of camp. Will still need to be filtered, no?
We just use coat hanger wire and it works great for dowsing rods. The "pull" is not real strong for me; the rods just cross by themselves in my hands. Also, if your rod is a couple feet long, try stopping directly over a spot where they cross. Hold one rod out over the spot and support your wrist with your other hand. The rod should start bouncing.. Count the bounces until they start to taper off and that should be the depth of the water in feet. An old local diviner with much success showed us this trick and it worked for a couple of us. We have a spot where we doused water at about 45 feet and want to try digging a well by hand, perhaps next year..
Interesting thread and replies , nice job everybody :)
A little late weighing in, but I'd say a spring box/old spring house, too. There was one like this on my aunt and uncle's property, only it had a little sandstone building over it to keep the water clean, and the little house stayed nice and cool all summer long. It was used to chill their milk after milking time, etc.
Let me see if I'm getting this. If you dig a hole and line the hole with concrete, build a shed over it. The box fills with spring water and keeps the shed cool enough for food storage?
When using witching rods, one hand will work as well as using both hands. When the rod crosses to the side, you can use your other hand to pull it away and point it ahead. It will snap right back to where it was. It's not real strong but a definite pull to the side will be present.
Quote from: diyfrank on November 22, 2010, 08:22:45 AM
Let me see if I'm getting this. If you dig a hole and line the hole with concrete, build a shed over it. The box fills with spring water and keeps the shed cool enough for food storage?
You would have to make sure that the spring has a continuing supply of spring water. That supply will keep the water at the lower temps. Without that continuing supply the water in the spring box would elevate to a surface temperature and not work. Mostly the spring boxes were used as HT stated to sit milk cans in. Not real sure that you could substitute other foods in a thin walled metal can or not. I am sure that cheese would probably keep but meats ???
When using witching rods, one hand will work as well as using both hands. When the rod crosses to the side, you can use your other hand to pull it away and point it ahead. It will snap right back to where it was. It's not real strong but a definite pull to the side will be present.
Frank I never tried it "one handed" before so I am not sure how it would work or the accuracy. Using two there is definitely a point that you can determine the location when both rods turn 90 deg crosssing each other. When in doubt just back off, straighten the rods and walk again until they cross again. That sort of eliminates the false positives. Then when you walk perpendicular you should find the same location in a different direction. Once you get a strong location in both directions that is where "I would drill".
I may build one and see how cool it stays, nothing to loose but time spent.
Redoverfarm
After using two, Give it a try using one and repeat. The result should be exactly the same.
I used two hands for years, then went to just using one.
I think it was so my other hand could carry marking paint, 100' tape, pen/note pad, prints etc. ::)
It was always my (apparently mistaken) impression that springs bubbled out of the ground mostly due to pressure from below and that if one dug a hole and found water, that was a shallow well caused more by seepage of the water table than anything else. If one goes downgrade and digs, and the hole subsequently filled up with water, this would be a spring? I'm a bit cloudy on how springs and shallow wells differ.
As mine seems to be a springbox, can I assume this water is drinkable? Must it be filtered? Is there any way of having it tested to determine it's quality? ???
Interesting thread expecially about the dowsing. I was at a country auction last Sat. and they had a professional dowsing kit complete with wooden case and manual. The dowsing rods had what looked to be white porcelain handles.
The auctioneer had the Amish helper walk in front of the crowd until the rods crossed and he said that was where the water line was under the building. Then he instructed him to walk forward counting his steps until the rods uncrossed. At the third step the rods uncrossed, so he said the water line was 3' down.
Then the auctioneer told a couple of "dowsing" stories and opened the bidding. It sold for $1000. [crz] [shocked] Believe it or not.
Then the ex-husband of my wife's neice told me at the lunch trailer that he took the bidding to over $900. ::)
[shocked] I think I will stick to my brazing rods.
Quote from: AdironDoc on November 22, 2010, 01:09:28 PM
It was always my (apparently mistaken) impression that springs bubbled out of the ground mostly due to pressure from below and that if one dug a hole and found water, that was a shallow well caused more by seepage of the water table than anything else. If one goes downgrade and digs, and the hole subsequently filled up with water, this would be a spring? I'm a bit cloudy on how springs and shallow wells differ.
As mine seems to be a springbox, can I assume this water is drinkable? Must it be filtered? Is there any way of having it tested to determine it's quality? ???
There are all kinds of springs, we have several wet weather springs on our place... well this is Spring Valley. A spring is a flow coming from the ground, but the flow can be as light as a seep or can be quite bold. What you are describing sounds more like an artesian well but springs can boil to the surface. If a crack in the rock forms a "pipe" that contains the water until it has some head pressure it will exit the ground with some force. Big Spring in MO is basically a river boiling to the surface.
Your county health dept can usually take a water sample or point you in the right direction for a test. A spring rarely passes, but look at what the contaminants are. It's usually time to change the filter when it gets clogged by salamanders...which is a sign of good water :)
Quote from: Don_P on November 22, 2010, 10:43:16 PM
Quote from: AdironDoc on November 22, 2010, 01:09:28 PM
It was always my (apparently mistaken) impression that springs bubbled out of the ground mostly due to pressure from below and that if one dug a hole and found water, that was a shallow well caused more by seepage of the water table than anything else. If one goes downgrade and digs, and the hole subsequently filled up with water, this would be a spring? I'm a bit cloudy on how springs and shallow wells differ.
As mine seems to be a springbox, can I assume this water is drinkable? Must it be filtered? Is there any way of having it tested to determine it's quality? ???
There are all kinds of springs, we have several wet weather springs on our place... well this is Spring Valley. A spring is a flow coming from the ground, but the flow can be as light as a seep or can be quite bold. What you are describing sounds more like an artesian well but springs can boil to the surface. If a crack in the rock forms a "pipe" that contains the water until it has some head pressure it will exit the ground with some force. Big Spring in MO is basically a river boiling to the surface.
Your county health dept can usually take a water sample or point you in the right direction for a test. A spring rarely passes, but look at what the contaminants are. It's usually time to change the filter when it gets clogged by salamanders...which is a sign of good water :)
We have several along the roads in the county. There is always someone stopped by collecting gallons of spring water or just grabbing a drink. They can be as elaborate as a box with a pipe exit or just a pipe into the bank. Always refreshing.
Aside from witching, are there any indicators of a good spot to drill a well? I thought I saw a short essay on it years ago that had something to do with the type of trees, vegetation and countour of the land, but I can't find it again for the life of me. Maybe the spring box is a good sign and I should keep a well nearby?
From my recently cleared cabin site my land slopes gently upwards on one side for 200 yards, then up a fairly sharp slope to a rideline. On the other side, it slopes downwards for 30 yards reaching a lower lying flat area maybe 15ft lower than my site, and although appearing to be mature hardwood and pine forest, is listed as flood zone. The creek wraps itself around my camp for 180 degrees. My guess is that shallower groundwater would tend to move from higher ground downwards towards the level of the creek but I'm ignorant on these things.
If the depth of the water table allowed it, it might be nice to drill upgrade and use a bit of gravity getting the water down to the cistern. I wonder if topography has any bearing on water table depth. Said my neighbor and builder, "we just start a-diggin in dem der acres a yours until we git lucky".
Yes, topography usually has a factor on a water table. They tend to be shallower in a valley than near a peak. I wouldn't be surprised if you could dig a shallow well and get good water. Remember, there is a saying that well drillers will drill as deep as your pockets will go. Many will tell you that if you hit water 30 ft down it is no good. Remember deeper wells cost more and pays for expensive equipment. I wouldn't expect a lot of contamination in the Adirondacks.
I don't know how to get well driller reports, but they are required for all wells in the state of NY. In PA you can access them on line. That along with some geological surveys, looking over the land and talking to your neighbors you should get a pretty good idea. Well driller reports aren't always accurate as to what they hit, but it is a start. I was looking at NY regulations and noticed there is a health code law that says you need a well drillers permit to drill a well. IIRC (not always) they are only issued to certified well drillers. So I am scratching the idea of drilling my own. Also some construction advice I was given was to drill the well last. In the permitting stages in Otsego county it is not required till after the house is built, but before the Certificate of Occupancy. The reason being that it is hardest to place a septic system, then a house. A water table tends to form in a layer of water bearing rock. This can be tapped at many places.
BTW, I am keeping my fingers crossed that the concrete you found isn't just an old foundation for an outhouse. [noidea' You never know.
I found a link to well information in the state of NY. A little sparse though.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/cfmx/extapps/WaterWell/index.cfm?view=searchByCounty
Quote from: Squirl on November 23, 2010, 09:38:47 AM
Remember, there is a saying that well drillers will drill as deep as your pockets will go.
Hahaha... No I had never heard that one but it's a point "well" taken. :P ok..I couldn't resist :)
Quote from: Squirl on November 23, 2010, 09:38:47 AM
BTW, I am keeping my fingers crossed that the concrete you found isn't just an old foundation for an outhouse. [noidea' You never know.
Omg! I hope you're joking! Of course with a foundation like that, it would have been the best constructed outhouse I've ever laid eyes on.
Thanks for the link. I found many wells near my area in Herkimer County. [cool]
Just noted 4 wells within 1 mile of my camp, all had depths at or around 240ft. That's much deeper than I had anticipated. I'm assuming those must be "deep wells" due to their depth?
Probably. If all are the same there may be a reason - possibly a reliable aquifer at that depth or low production and room for a reservoir so drilled that deep.
When I first became licensed as a water plant operator (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ::)), I would cringe everytime I would pass one of those roadside springs Redover mentioned. I was attending a water treatment class at VA. Tech one year and the conversation turned to those springs. We were discussing the possible effects of ground water under the influence of surface water,GWUISW (yeah that's a real term for us) and the instructor that day just happened to be a health dept. official. We asked him why they (the health dept.) didn't shut those things down. He replied, "bad springs are found out real quick and the public shuts them down for us most times". My wifes grandparents would drive 2 counties over to get a drink of water from a roadside spring at least once a month, said it couldn't be beat. apologies for the hijack.
frazoo
AdironDoc,did you ever clean out that box or find out what it is?Maybe ask some of the old locals.
Quote from: ben2go on December 02, 2010, 12:38:42 AM
AdironDoc,did you ever clean out that box or find out what it is?Maybe ask some of the old locals.
I'll be heading up this weekend as the snows haven't come yet. When I get there, I'll try cleaning out the springbox. Later in the day, after all has settled, I'll fill a bottle with the water and look for some place to have it tested. If it checks out, I'd use it to fill a cistern, run it through a filtering system as one would with a shallow well, and viola!
Stay tuned.. :)
Good deal.I would consider using a UV light to kill any possible bacteria or germs.
An update on the spring box. It's internal measurements are 6ft x 3ft. I got a shovel with me but it was a bit deep and the freezing water and light snow told me wait until spring. I poked a stick past some of the beams and roofing material that was in the box and reached at least 3ft below water. I'll climb in come spring and throw all the junk out.
Will pump out all the water and check the refill rate. Oddly there are two pipes into the box, both on the downsloping side. One is under a foot of water, the other a foot above the water (presumably overflow), but the top pipe is dripping water into the well as well. Not sure the mechanics of how they set these things up but I grabbed a bottle full of water from just below the surface. I'm waiting on a home test kit for metals, ph, hardness, and bacteria.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUa05H7sDx8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUa05H7sDx8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFDURBNRGKA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFDURBNRGKA)
That is a good sized box. Hopefully you have found your water source. Being open like that it could come up bad on the coliform, but once properly , roofed and cleaned out, chlorinated with Clorox, chlorine tablets, peroxide or other, it could be good.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 05, 2010, 11:29:31 AM
That is a good sized box. Hopefully you have found your water source. Being open like that it could come up bad on the coliform, but once properly , roofed and cleaned out, chlorinated with Clorox, chlorine tablets, peroxide or other, it could be good.
Might be easiest for me to buy a small ready-shed at Lowes and drop it right over. :D
That could be a good possibility. :)
Home water test kit performed on water collected last weekend. Copper, Iron, Nitrates and Chlorine were all zero. pH was 6.5 and total hardness 100. Lead and pesticides negative. Bacteria pending but neg. so far.
The kit noted that hardness should be 50 or less. My results weren't quite to the 120 panel, but much higher than the 50 panel. I'd say 100. Is it common that spring water be hard? Is it easily remedied?
I'm looking forward to the bacterial results. Will post when ready. Springbox seems to be shaping up.
No problem... hard water is good for you. Probably better to have a bit of hardness as it would indicate deeper water rather than rainwter runoff.
Here we don't consider it a problem until TDS reaches around 400. People pay good money for mineral water.
Adirondoc Bottled Water
;) Good one!
I'm surprised the testing didn't show any problems given that plenty asphalt shingles had fallen in. Bacteriology will be ready tomorrow. Despite the snow, very tiny insects could be observed on the water disturbing the surface. I'd be surprised if there wasn't anything in that water. Well.. I'd still be running it through a filter.
We drank water from my dads spring with a decomposing salamander stuck in the pipe... slow flow but nobody got sick..... humans are a pretty tough species sometimes.... A few weeks after the start of the problem we got it out and the flow was good as new... [waiting] :)
Adirondoc Springs Pure Mineral Water
From my home to yours, naturally.
Quote from: MountainDon on December 09, 2010, 04:41:42 PM
Adirondoc Springs Pure Mineral Water
From my home to yours, naturally.
I'd imagine you want royalties for that, Don? I'll give you your due.
AdironDoc's Marvelous Mystery-Box Water. Nobody knows whence it comes or where it goes, but it's "Brilliant... naturally!"
:-\ My bacteriology test was looking ok, but in the end, turned up positive. It doesn't tell me what bacteria are present. I wonder what it could be? The springbox is in the middle of nowhere and there's not another structure within 1000 yrds. Animal scat's about the only thing it could be, right? I can't imagine any other sources of bacteria. I hope bleaching the box and covering it will do the trick.
You're the doc so take this for what it's worth. I don't believe bacteria is limited to animal origin. I know that "wind shake" in trees is actually caused by a soil borne bacteria... from who or where it originates is beyond me. This was why I mentioned that a spring rarely passes, it almost always has bacteria. If they can identify and give you a count it would be more useful. Although until you get it cleaned out and confirm that it runs that doesn't matter a whole lot. It doesn't sound bad yet. We evolved alongside a lot of the stuff we get concerned with and seem to be no worse for the wear.
You can buy expensive stuff but when well drilling a gallon of Chlorox in a small well for 24 hours then pump until no more smell did it. Wide open like that, I would expect a positive test... even birds do it.....
True enough. Myriad bacteria everywhere. The packaging of the water test noted that the testing, albeit nonspecific, "in all likelihood, indicates the presence of pathogenic bacteria that will be hazardous if ingested". My impression: the test is geared for coliform, and other enteric nasties. I will go the clorox route after enclosing the spring, then send the water to a lab so that if positive, the pathogen can be identified.
Likely - the coliform is not necessarily a baddie but can indicate that the baddies could be there if it is there is my understanding.
Doc...we have something that looks exactly the same on our property. I believe in our case it was a distribution box. The springs that we are using for our water have pipes that were in them but they were rusted out etc. The box very similar to yours had an incoming line and then a few outgoing lines to the residences that are below us. They have municipal water now so its un-used. I dont think it was a spring also but its tough to say..maybe I go look again for fun.
We also had a bacteria fail on our water. Thanks everyone for sharing their knowledge about such stuff b/c I did not get the details just that the water had bacteria. I have been drinking it ...it tastes good. I started off just sipping it now I drink it whenever i am on land so I thinks its ok. I am not sick b/c of it so I am not that concerned.
Sorry for the thread drift, but I am building in the same state as Adirondoc and Speedfunk. My building permit regulations state that you need a "passing bacterial water test from a certified testing laboratory" for them to issue a certificate of occupancy, but it gives no other guidance on whether it can be a from spring box, home dug well, shallow well, rainwater catchment, trucked in, or anything else.
Has either of you (or anyone else in NY) received any clarification on this? Speedfunk, have you researched other options. I have a few, but I don't know legality for passing code. I would just like to price and weigh other options than paying someone to dig a well.
Quote from: Squirl on December 22, 2010, 01:56:13 PM
Sorry for the thread drift, but I am building in the same state as Adirondoc and Speedfunk. My building permit regulations state that you need a "passing bacterial water test from a certified testing laboratory" for them to issue a certificate of occupancy, but it gives no other guidance on whether it can be a from spring box, home dug well, shallow well, rainwater catchment, trucked in, or anything else.
Have a read through this.DIY well and you can have the water checked out for occupancy issue.
Has either of you (or anyone else in NY) received any clarification on this? Speedfunk, have you researched other options. I have a few, but I don't know legality for passing code. I would just like to price and weigh other options than paying someone to dig a well.
Sorry guys, been out of town a few days. Come spring, I'll dump some chlorine (chlorox or pool powder) into the springbox just after I remove all the debris and cover it. A month later, I'll test again. I doubt this will ever be my primary source of water since it's around 700ft from the cabin. I also don't have any idea of the refill rate yet. A smaller guest cottage I'll build on this side of the camp could make use of it in the future.
Don't people with shallow wells usually run their water through a filtering system of some sort? I remember my dad's place up in the northern forests of Saskatchewan. He had a shallow well that seemed crystal clear but still conditioned the water.
I've not crossed the certificate of occupancy bridge yet, so I don't have any specifics on requirements on potable water sources. Being in health care it's not hard to imagine the Dept. of Health requires an ID of what bacteria and other nasties come up and the Building Dept will adhere to their recommendations. Common pathogens or harmless flora. I suspect they're looking for coliform mostly but will ask the inspector when I meet him for specifics and counts.
Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on November 21, 2010, 09:26:05 PMCount the bounces until they start to taper off and that should be the depth of the water in feet.
Do European dowsing rods measure water depth in meters?
QuoteDo European dowsing rods measure water depth in meters?
:D
Quote from: Pox Eclipse on December 23, 2010, 08:50:23 AM
Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on November 21, 2010, 09:26:05 PMCount the bounces until they start to taper off and that should be the depth of the water in feet.
Do European dowsing rods measure water depth in meters?
hahaha! yes, and I suspect that if two dowsers crossed paths somewhere deep in the woods, they would pass to the left of each other as well..
Cheerios mate..
Quote from: AdironDoc on December 23, 2010, 08:25:42 AM
Don't people with shallow wells usually run their water through a filtering system of some sort? I remember my dad's place up in the northern forests of Saskatchewan. He had a shallow well that seemed crystal clear but still conditioned the water.
I'd rather err on the side of safety when it comes to drinking water. A two to five micron filter coupled with a UV disinfecting light will more than do the job and there are no chemicals added to the water. Filter placed before the light to lower the turbidity and leave less places for the nasties to hide behind when it goes through the light tube. Clorox works well for wells, because typically there are no surface contaminants in a well once all drilling equipment is removed and you have disinfected the well with the chlorine. At this point in time, you don't know if you have ground water or if it is being influenced by surface water (which is where most nasties live). If your source has been influenced by surface conditions, it could be influenced again in the future after your initial disinfection process. The filter and UV light cost less than $200.00, replace the light once a year @ $39.00/replacement. Still less than the cost of one case of the nasties.
frazoo
Point "well" taken! ;)
squirl:
You are correct in your description of NYS Cert of water. I am not sure what I am going to do really. The test failed the first time I did it, it however had leaves in the spring box and was open ( I sent the firstday at the same time so figured why not try the new land). The guy I know locally died recently (schenevus) so if you know of anyone else let me know. So I have been drinking the water and it tastes good and has not effected me in anyway. well i do have this muscle glitch sometimes ..hm... c*
I will have to wait till the results come back when I finish the spring box and get it cleaned out. However depending on how it fails I will do my own research. Not all bacteria are bad so from my limited understanding is it could fail and still be fine? I am not drilling a well period and will find a work around if it fails. GL i hope yours is perfect. :)
The e-coli are just an indicator that pathogens could be in the water and not a guarantee that they are. Some e-coli are bad and some are not. They are just easy to find.
Some places locals will build a tolerance to bugs that would make others sick.
Thanks for the response speedfunk. I have read the NSF guide to rain water catchment for potable water. Similar ones are published by various state governments. Two of the ones I have read are from Texas and Ohio. The Ohio one is actually part of their building code. The reality of it is that birds poop on roofs. Some type of bacteria will get into the water supply even with a first flush diverter. A sand, .1 micron, and UV filter are considered to code for these water supplies. I can't see why the same technology applied to shallow wells would not pass requirements for eliminating bacteria and passing the tests. I'm sure there could be other factors, such as if your shallow well is too close to a fertilized field. There are many chemicals and mineral issues that might have to be dealt with, but, theoretically, the bacteria issues should be easier to overcome.
BTW speedfunk, I didn't know that it was done by private contractors. I thought it was done through Otsego soil and water conservation, just like the perc test. I did find a list of Laboratories on their website. I assume you were referring to Tom Whibeck's Water Lab. He is still listed. I guess it is not the most up to date list. I am going to set up a small rainwater catchment system before the larger one as soon as the ground thaws. I would appreciate if you could keep me updated which one you use or have heard of. I will post how it goes when I get it done. Did you take the water over, or did they send someone out?
Squirl: I am sure your right that the same techniques could be applied to a shallow well/spring. Yeah private guys do it also. If you also find one let me know. We are not there yet but sometime lol. Until then I will appreciate the lower taxes (with out cert of occupancy)
The land that is above def plays a big part. If I was in a low lying elevation and had farms around me I would not be so confident. However, I am on a big hill , there is a house above me but I get the feeling that my spring comes from a pretty deep vain and that any contaminates from ground would be filtered pretty good by the time they got to the spring head. In all cases it seems a good bit of common sense goes a long way.
Thanks glenn, that kind of what I remember as well , that not all ecoli is bad etc, it also makes sense if you grew up drinking it that your body is very familiar with what is in the water and if of average health could separate the good from the bad.
As I recall some bugs that would not bother the locals would give new visitors the Hershey's squirts. :)
Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 09, 2011, 12:44:09 PM
As I recall some bugs that would not bother the locals would give new visitors the Hershey's squirts. :)
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We call it the green apple $h!t$ here.
Thought I'd throw a follow-up question on here as I'm headed up to the camp this weekend. We'll break ground soon on the cabin. Anyway, as you recall, I had found an uncovered springbox with a bunch of debris in it. It tested fine for all but trace bacteria, which with the home test, are not specified. Some of you mentioned putting some chlorine in and retesting a month later. I wondered on any suggested specifics. I have bromine shock for my spa. I have a jug of chlorox by my wash. I could get a box of pool chlorine. Any thoughts on how best to do this? How much? How long to let it sit before testing again? I'd estimate there's around 40-60 gallons of water in the box but depends on how deep it ends up being. After cleaning it out and shocking the water, I'll be covering the box with a small plastic shed from HomeDepot.
Doc
I've been doing research for the same reason and found this:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/better-than-bleach-use-calcium-hypochlorite-to-disinfect-water/
Mixed in quantities described here'
http://www.healthlinkbc.ca/healthfiles/hfile49b.stm
Also, I found a good site selling disinfecting products if you want to clean the water further.
http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/chlorinator.html
http://www.overlandjournal.com/media/news_and_press/overland_journal_completes_water_filter_and_purifier_test/
I read the artical and it covers a lot of the off the shelf purifiers, the larger system would be fine for a cabin,
They actually tested the gear with real nasties and the results were surprising.
I think the value award went to the typical standard household carbon and mesh system,but not sure.
, with a Doulton carbon filter
Basicly if you have a water source its not that dificult to purify it
here's a site with just filters and gear
http://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/DWUV.htm
If you use any filter media like the Doulton, Berkey and others one thing to remember is that when you close up the place for winter those type of media may be damaged by freezing water that is retained in the filtering media