We could have an interesting conversation about sustainability. Here is an email question I recently got to get us started:
Q: We are interested in your plans and would be interested to know if your designs have been adopted by any US builder into a sustainable community.
A: I do not know of the houses being built in any formally so defined communities. However, just yesterday a builder in SC bought three of my plans for a move he is making from doing large trophy houses to smaller affordable housing community based developments. We talked about some of the co-housing communities I have been involved with up here in WA.
Most of the folks I hear back from (and who send photos) are the one-off builders and owner-builders (see the forum or Gallery (http://www.countryplans.com/gallery.html)).
My mantra is to build smaller using locally available materials and to take advantage of the natural energy characteristics of the site (see Sunkit (http://www.countryplans.com/solarkit.htm)).
Do the simple stuff first and the stuff that saves you money.... If I can get folks to do that they are well on the way towards sustainability even if they don't have the inclination to get too fussy about formal product certifications and such. And, usually, the discussion doesn't then de-evolve into politics or self-righteousness!
So: What does building sustainabilty mean to you? What are good examples of it?
I am very new at this topic and hardly an expert but after a few thoughts, perhaps someone could jump in and tell me what it really is! ;)
From the reading I've been doing, it's building with a view to the future. How we impact the land, how we will be sustaining ourselves, how we sustain local economies, etc.
Each article or blog that I read seems to have a personalized priority. Some talk of building with renewable materials, others with materials available locally. Others are more concerned with the actual living sustainably with solar, organic gardening and even biodiesel and other alternative fuels.
Perhaps they are on different points of the learning curve, I'm not sure. I don't feel I'm doing enough in my little world and my curve is definitely in the uphill portion of the struggle.
I'd be interested in other opinions. I read many sources but have yet to have someone fully define it in a way that makes sense. Again, I'm almost ashamed that I don't know more since it affects many aspects of our lives.
A very broad topic John. To me wood is a renewable resourse as long as more trees are planted in a "forested" envir. , the odd fruit tree or D.Fir we plant in our yards should not be counted as part of that renewable forest as MTL they will be harvested before they are mature , not enought trees would be planted to sustain a yeild worth a loggers harvest.
So we have to relay on the big boys , B/C , Wherehouser (sp) , L/P etc to manage thier Corp. land , as well as the govt. ours ,Canada's, South America for the Mahogany's and other rain forest woods , so it's a big job / gambel , that . A big balancing act , how hard do we make it for companys to log ? Will over regulation force companys out of the tree business ? So over protection could lead to less trees in a wierd way. I've just read of a wood pecker back east , loves a Lob-lolly pine , so the county is protecting the pine, soon , so folks are cutting them down so a tree won't stop them from building where the tree was. So more trees are getting cut at a higher exsaberated rate .
To me building the right place using the right wood for the job and doing all a guy can to get flashing details / roofing etc , "right" so the structure can last 2 / 3 /4 hundred years is sustaining the resourses used. That IMO is what we each can do , we can't each plant 10,000 trees per year , we can use the wood wisely keep waste down , and do it right so that 20 years from the build, the building is not rotten / falling down peice of junk only fit for the fire.
So what is building "right" Peg? I would love my house to last at least four hundred years but to be honest, a hundred would seem to be more realistic for those stick built houses that I'm most familiar with. Is longer truly realistic? What are the methods and materials that would last that long? I see plenty of encouragement to build that way but few actual explanations of what's involved.
Edited to add: I found this sourcebook whose origin is Texas. Since many of us are from Tx, thought it would be helpful:
http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/
Again a big question , proper flashing , ventalation , details to keep water out, keep wood away from the dirt 6" min. more is better cuz 6" isn't that much and with little or no maintance that gets eatin up with grass clipping , flower beds mulch etc quickly . Try to make it fool proof cuz a fool that never cleans his gutters , piles dirt for flower beds right up to and over the siding , waters his flowers all day causing the crawlspace to fill up with water etc etc etc , will some day own the house you build, if you build it and it out last you . Well not you specficly.But in general I mean . So some luck is involved, I just try to do the best I can with the stuff I build , weather it's for me , which it generally isn't as I'm a builder / carpenter so I build more for others/ money than I do for myself if you will. How do you find out what that is , I'm not sure but this site has a lot of info , some of it's even good info , eh Glenn ;D Picking out the good stuff , I don't know I give it to ya as straight / right as I can , if I post it , and it's not down in the rant section ::)( I might be pulling a leg down there ;)sometimes ) , it's what I'd do in a given situation , if I don't know ,I don't answer or I qualify it by saying I'm guessing or hunching based on what I know about what your doing , or don't know exactly :-/
Use proven building practices not new "I think this should work?" modern wood saving technecs. There are lots of old 100 plus houses that where ballon framed , over spaned joist / rafters , etc back east. So put together a house with the best of the turn of the century ideas with proper spans and these houses should last longer. Of course we create a lot of our own problems , houses to tight , poor venting , etc, so again, a big question ,to vast to answer specificly for me , but all the ideas we bash around go into that, good long lasting house.
Gotta be something good here somewhere, PEG. :)
I think one portion of building sustainability as spoken of here would be thinking toward building something that others will cherish and care for (- unique - good quality - special -etc) after we are gone. This type of building should help to keep it out of landfills for years to come.
This sort of fits here, lack of venting caused this failure . Old hip roof house , late 60's I'd guess . Enclosed soffits with every few vents coupled with stuffing the insulation tight into the corner of the roof / wall / ceiling triangle . So almost no venting was happening , mold was growing , a tree fell on the place which is why we are there , but the whole roof(sheathing) is rotten / soft. So a example of poor sustainabilty :(
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept282.jpg%20 )
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept281.jpg%20 )
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept28.jpg%20 )
These photos where taken at the land fill so just the plywood , mainly , are from the roof . I did pick up 3 nice , but dirty Mahogany boards 10 " wide by 5' long that have promise for new life . The rest of the big pile is just :(
Wood is often under appreciated as a renewable resource. Building houses out of giant plants would be a radically Eco-friendly idea if it wasn't so common.
Where the climate and soil are appropriate, houses using earth sheltering and cob/straw such as Glenn is doing are very sustainable and of low environmental impact. But, for many parts of the world, a properly built and well maintained wood house will have a long, long life, is easily updated or added onto, and has proven high market value.
Glenn is also right about the longevity factor playing a big part in this sustainability question.
Here is an article I did some time ago on that topic: http://www.countryplans.com/thrive.html
And, finally, an even older chestnut about taking the time to plan well (writen when I first started my architectural design service in 1978): http://www.countryplans.com/Downloads/design_thoughts.PDF.
Very thoughtful chestnut, John - invaluable suggestions to those planning/designing/building their home & hoping to enjoy & pass it on to posterity. :)
Those boards where 2/4', 1 /3' :-[ still nice ;)
(https://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept29.jpg%20)
:D I am in the process of buying land and plan on building a green eco friendly house. (I think any of John's designs could be used for green building). Its great to see this topic on the forum. Several people have focused on trees as a renewable resource which is great. Green building goes far beyond the wood frame, which I also plan to use. And in addition explores other framing means such as straw, earth...
Green buildings focus on energy savings, using renewable and sustainable materials and healthy environments for our families as well as the broader ecosystem in which we live. Many building materials use chemicals in their production and/or contain chemicals such as VOC's, HCFC's, formaldehyde and chlorine. These chemicals pollute the environment as well as being linked to indoor air pollution and cancer.
Another good website is www.BuildingGreen.com
They have lots of good info and their book Green Building Products is a great reference.
www.epa.gov/greenbuilding/
Another good site with some great links.
I plan on using solar energy as well. Anyone else using solar?
Welcome to the forum, littlegirlgo. We use solar and wind at the underground cabin and refuse connection to the grid.
We use logs from thinning operations in forest management. The logger we got them from said they are like weeds slowing the growth of timber trees and must be removed. We a good use for them. We use earth excavated from the site in various earth building method mixes such as cob, rammed earth, soil cement and earth plaster.
We also use mostly recycled materials that are given to us. This may not be possible to do in code regulated projects.
Logging is the main industry in this county. Logging companies (or something very like them) are the largest category of landowner in the state of Alabama.
Sustainable wood? A lot of us, especially in the south-east are not so sure.
Three crops and the land and you may have ruined the soil for a century. The first--mixed hardwoods that have been growing for 30-50 years. Second is monoculture pine, if the pine bark beetles don't get the crop. Planted very very thickly, everything else herbicided out (from crop dusters or helicopters). Third is an attempt at pine. I do see a lot of loads on the road that look like they are headed toward the pulp and chip mills. These are not thinning operations, but clear-cut. As round-wood for structures they would probably work.
Now this has happened before--in the early part of the last century when railroad ties were not creosoted and had to be replaced really frequently.
I don't know what is really really "sustainable" or "low impact." Probably won't build all that much that way--I'll do my best, but....
If you get the chance, take a look at Tony Wrench's and Ben Law's books.
Ben Law is a forester in England, believes strongly in sustainability. Both of his books are pretty interesting--first on forests/permaculture, second on his kruk-framed strawbale infill (with siding!) house. His house was the subject of a hit British TV series--and the book seems to come out of that.
The whole Tony Wrench saga has been fascinating. I haven't looked in a long time, but at last report the authorities had just about decided to give up trying to tear his house down. (NB--no termites there--not sure it would last long here) Link to his book--I've been hype-ing it for a good long time now:
http://www.amazon.com/Building-Impact-Roundhouse-Simple-Living/dp/1856230198
Ben Law--his two books are the first two here--BTW his house did get the equivalent of structural engineer stamps details in an afterword:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-4565289-9806560?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=%22Ben+Law%22&Go.x=12&Go.y=4
Glen
Thanks for the welcome. This is a great forum! What kind of pannels and how many are you using ?
Amanda
Ive read Tony Wrench and agree its not doable for us in the southeast, but he is a fascinating man. Ben Law is definatley on my library list. Are you 931 on Amazon reviews? Interesting list. :)
Jared Diamond is a very interesting read - sustainability on a global scale. I read both his books for a class this summer; http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/104-2760020-5360762?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=jared+diamond
Guns, Germs and Steel looks at the effect that different cultures have had on the environment both ancient and today. And Collapse looks at our ability to deal with current environmental pressures including forest management and housing.
Littlegirlgo, glad you like the forum and great to have your comments too.
We are using a good mix of whatever we could get the best deal on as we have been adding as we need them or got bargains. Mostly Kyocera and BP around 100 watts each but some 40 watt BP. It's all good. :) We have two 4000 watt Trace sine wave inverters with a sync cable to make 220v for our pump or anything else I want to play with.
We have around 2500 watts of panels and a 1000 watt Bergey XL1 wind generator. The county lady told me that if the grid was available we had to connect to it. The state requires it. They will protect us if we will not protect ourselves, were her words. It is on my property about 400 feet away. That connection at this point would be over my dead body. :o
Glen ,
I feel your pain. In 1993 I bought 14 acers of land with no intention getting conventional electric. The electric people came twice to tell me the virtues of electricity and then the county came. It was not pleasent but after I called a lawyer and a journalist they left me alone. ;) I ended up selling the place seven years later and making a profit - with no electric on it, except a couple small photo pannels.
Im hoping this time around the county people will not be so deficient in knowledge! ;D
It's really a bit more of being able to control you. All of the rebate programs around here are based on you hooking up to the grid. If you hook up to the grid then you enter the system, give them permission to enter your land -when you take out the permit, disclose your assetts - panels etc. for annually recurring tax purposes.
The electric company here ignored my calls when I was first going to use them - the right guy would never call back. After 6 months of phone tag off and on, I decided I didn't need them and would do it myself.
According to Mike Oehler, the meter reader in many areas is also the eyes and ears of the gov. as regards to possibly unauthorized building activity.
This is a very interesting discussion.
I bought an old 1940's house in the 1970's, and loved the crazy floor plan, windows galore, huge kitchen, breezeway--but didn't realize that it was built b-a-a-a-d. Tore it apart to remodel, ended up tearing it down. That hurt! But we gathered what we could--old street brick, deco lighting fixtures, railroad lanterns used as lights--and a couple of people paid to take off whatever they could--windows, doors, water heater, footed tub, etc. The body of the house went into a Florida sinkhole, so I guess that's recycling of a sort. Really wanted to save the pine ceilings and walls, but the wood was very brittle and broke as we pried it apart.
In remodelling, we are re-using every piece of good lumber and giving away or donating what we can't use. We could probably do better, but at least we're trying.
In our new home, I'm going to try to build green. I will probably use recycled material to enclose the big pole barn. And those lanterns and light fixtures are coming along to their new home.
As for a definition of sustainability--in a way, if we don't waste resources, they'll be there for the future. I am living fairly light on the land, and feel it is my responsibility to do so. Air is free--why enclose and trap it in a giant (obscene?) space?
Yep, I'm the 931 in the more recent (last five years) Amazon reviews.
And I read a lot.
Around here I think it's still true that if you have grid (mains) electricity you have to have a septic tank. But not if you are off grid.
Creative1 - that sounds great! Too bad you could not save the house but it certainly sounds like you are putting all the parts to great use.
Amanda - I read as much as I can which is never enough ;D
As for reading alot--we have (REALLY) about 20,000 books, many on health, art, architecture, martial arts, philosophy, poetry, science fiction, etc. Most people move with lots of furniture, we're leaving most of that behind and bringing those books.
I picked up the book Building Green byClarke Snell and Tim Callahan, scanned it briefly, didn't think much of it. But it was on sale. ;)
Right now it's the book that lives down at the barn, and I look something up in it a couple of times a week.
Snell wanted to build a guest house, sustainability a big issue. For whatever reason--some good-- he decided to use as many forms of green building as he could, also to have a local (standard type) builder work with him, learn and comment. So one wall is cordwood masonry, one is straw bale, one clay-straw, etc.
So far our clay-straw (light clay, clay slip, etc.) wall isn't shrinking the way his did. But I'd already had some experience with clay/sawdust/wood chip mixtures shrinking and thought wattle type construction might work well. Find out later. but the little sprouts in the first section we did are still happily alive--even that ain't really dry.
I read Snell's book. I found it an interesting read and the building was quite interesting. Somewhat strange but nifty too. Not something I would build but I learned several things.
I'm reading Your Natural Home by Marinelli and Beirman-Lytle. Pretty good - lots of resources. Its helping me figure out the best uses of my money as far as building/finishing goes.
I am a big fan of Rex Ewing. I have just reread Power With Nature.
http://www.pixyjackpress.com/index.html
Creative you got me beat - as of my last move I had 36 large boxes of books. My kids were very greatful - haha.
My new house is going to have creative nooks for books. I have seen bookcases in the staircase and built into end walls. Any creative ideas??
The Victoria Cottage has about 50 feet of kneewall uptairs that will be bookcases. That's why this plan was so appealing to me. Also, you can double wall between rooms and build in bookcases there, build a deep chair rail above doors or all around the room--or, with stairs, each step can be hinged for storage. Couches can be built with a "book surround" in the arms and back. Space between the studs works great for bathroom reading.
I'm thinking lofts in an extra tall building with a chain hoist to bring things up and down.
One of the things that the Snell book has is a longish discussion of what stick-built means, how it can be green, etc. I'm usually looking for something particularly when I reach for the book, so I've only glanced at that, but it might well bear close study.
There are now inexpensive winches that can hoist goods - not people - in a situation such as this. 120v AC. Harbor Freight is one place that has them. Proper rigging is essential for safety though.
I have a manual one somewhere in storage. Expect it would carry a basket of books from, oh, say, five to twelve feet.
But yes, having a load break a piece of truss or a rafter would be a major bummer.
First, I freely admit I'm a dummy when it comes to the topic of 'green building' even tho I have read a bit about the concept.
My question is, would Hardy board and metal roofs qualify as 'green'?
In building my place, I have tried to build to last in every way I can think. I did use Hardiboard, 26ga metal roof over factory built trusses and a foundation of concrete blocks high enough off the grade to never worry about contact with the earth. And, I use Icyene insulation and no ventilation in the attic, low e glass all around, etc, etc. Does any of that qualify?
Okie Bob
Both metal roofing and cement siding have high embodied energy - much more energy is needed than for wood siding and shingles. However, both have potential lifetimes longer than the more renewable wood products.
Built in the right place and taken care of for 100 years or more the equation looks pretty green! But, no one knows the future and the actual 'greenness" of your choices can never be determined beforehand. That's why you can't get too serious about this topic. Maintenance over the long term is a huge factor.
John
Sorry to disagree :o BUT I think we should be too serious about this topic. Not only are we affecting our health (indoor pollution) when we build and the longevity of our building - we are having a great impact on the planet. We can (even one person) have an impact on the economy and the health of our planet.
In building green we think seriously about our decissions to try to create balence. Roofing is a good example. Obviously a roof has to have certain characteristics such as water proof, strong and durable. Metal roofing is durable and highly recycleable which helps to balence the high energy output for its construction. But here again you can get metal sheets and shingles made from recycled metal. What goes around comes around :D
I'll shut up for now ;)
Either there's not one answer to any sustainability question, or we haven't figured out what it is yet, IMHO.
For instance--I've been thinking about roofs lately.
Metal roofs are fine (at least for a plain roof) if you are going to harvest rainwater. They're pretty fair for keeping run-off to a minimum. Or some of the rubber roofs are water-collection listed. But there are probably problems with both types of roof.
Living roofs--like Glenn and Sassy have--are probably more sustainable if you're not. They help at least as well for mitigating runoff. But they pretty much require the EPDM liner, which may or may not be pollution-free/sustainably manufactured. And they require heavier building.
On the other hand thatch may help get rid of obnoxious opportunistic weeds cluttering up ponds and waterways. Probably, if well installed, it works almost as well as 25-year asphalt shingles. Unfortunately not many people still know how to instal them in this country. And there are fire problems with it.
Round wood is (in a lot of applications at least) stronger than an equivalent volume of milled wood (grain isn't screwed up as much), but how do you use round wood for rafters, especially if you want a metal roof?
And so on.
One of the nice things about Tony Wrench's book is that he really does agonize in detail over the decisions he makes for his low-impact house.
I'll also recommend--again--Ragged World--by Judith Moffett. In which the Aliens demand that we live sustainably. What seems most important to her in the 80's when the stories that make up the book were written is not quite the same as what we're thinking about now, but it's still remarkable.... And, incidently, when the stories came out individually in Asimov's I did a happy dance every time I saw there was a new one!
What I mean to say about not getting too serious about sustainability is not that it is unimportant. It is important.
It's just that you make your decision with the best information you have and then step into the future - which might just make your decisions null and void when the freeway comes through the living room, the hurricane hits, or they find that bamboo flooring is toxic to pets.
It's like raising kids - it's important, but not serious. You do the best you can at the time and then have to let loose. ;D and.... we are just fooling ourselves when we think we will ever have ALL the information to make the RIGHT decision. Next week the information will be different.
And about our houses... aren't we all just building with future landfill materials anyway? Except for Glenn, of course, who's building with future sediment materials. :D
We had a article in our local paper some time ago discussing new roofing shingles that are used as solar panels. We are waiting with bated breath for them to be more mainstream (read: CHEAPER), so we can redo our house with them. We were also sorely disappointed to realize our 90+ year old house originally had a slate roof that was replaced with non-descript grey asphalt shingles.
As far as building sustainably, when is the McMansion going to go out of style? It's got to cost a fortune to heat/cool/maintain those houses! It's refreshing to hear that some builders are getting away from them.
I also heard an ad recently for an on-demand heating system, from the same company that makes tankless water heaters. Seems like a good idea to me. I was also wondering if anyone has improved on the heat pumps I remember from the '70's?
Just my thoughts for the evening...
SusieQ.
Well-- if you think about it -- I think I'm building with present day landfill materials -- salvage and dirt to cover it up. Yup -- that's me. :-/
Sitting here in front of the 1920 Round Oak wood stove barbecuing my steaks over the same fire I'm using to heat the cabin. What could be more sustainable than that? :)
Glenn: It's fascinating how an interest in thriftiness and imaginative recycling naturally leads to sustainability. This doesn't usually make the slick magazine spreads on the topic (as it doesn't attract advertisers), but it's a powerful unrecognized element of many owner-builder projects.
SusieQ: Heat pumps, especially ground source units have become considerably more efficient in recent years. However, the entry fee is high and it may not pencil out for a smaller house. More cost effective for smaller houses are the tankless heaters (both for water and space heating) that almost eliminate the standby losses of typical water heaters and boilers.
Solar shingles are going to be very big when they are cost effective - which may not be that far off. Plan the attic with some appropriate wiring pre-installed so the hookup will be easy.
I am building for a future recycling facility not a future landfill. Hopefully my building will go on as some future undetermined thing. ;)
Actually I'm not building yet, trying to get $$ together for plans from John and the Septic tank guy. :D
Amanda I am totally in sinc with Tony Wrench - I'm in true agony over my building decissions. Its a good thing my job, school and kids keep me somewhat focused or I would be totally obsessed!! :P
I like that thinking Littlegirlgo. ;) Thinking in terms of recycling our projects makes a lot of sense.
An interesting site I ran across today - lots of links - here are a few...
Sustainable Energy in Motion Bicycle Tour (http://www.democracybike.com/index.shtml)
Aprovecho Research Center (http://www.aprovecho.net/)
http://www.aprovecho.net/stoves/
Design principles for woodburning cookstoves
http://bioenergylists.org/stovesdoc/Pcia/Design%20Principles%20for%20Wood%20Burning%20Cookstoves.pdf
http://www.lostvalley.org/
I was thinking about the houses the Romans left behind when they abandoned England -- the Britons salvaged materials from the Roman villas after they no longer knew how to maintain and operate the water and heating systems. I wonder if that will be the fate of some of the houses being built today?
My thoughts on sustainability are that no one solution is going to be good for every location. For instance, if I was building in an area prone to hurricanes, I would be building out of cement (termites, as well as high winds) and probably either a dome or underground. In the far north (which is much more likely to be my destination -- I was raised in Alaska and hope to go back someday), I would build underground, with minimal windows -- probably a Mike Oehler house. And so on. Each region needs to have it's own indiginous housing that is best suited to the conditions there.
Kathleen
Thinking about where to put bookcases I realized that hallways would be a natural place. Make the hallway a bit wider & build in bookcases with a potential for adding doors (in case you want storage later). Don't forget some lighting to be able to find what you're looking for!
Bellla
One whole side of the hallway in our house in the valley is built-in bookshelves... plus we have lots of bookshelves around the house that aren't built in - I'll need a library in our cabin to fit all the books! I don't think we'll have any hallways...
I don't think we really know how to build--or live--sustainably. Might not be too hard for other people to do better than I do--friends have but don't now (or are currently gearing up to) grow 90 per cent of their food from their own land, for instance.
Some people (e.g. Tony Wrench and Ben Law in Great Britain) and some countries seem to be on their way to doing it--if not right, at least more with an eye to the future than we do.
Sometimes I think all I do is tell people to read Ragged World.
New legislation from Spain--the URL may tell you enough--and there ain't text there unless you go to the link (presumably in Spanish):
http://www.hugg.com/story/Solar-spain-All-new-renovated-buildings-must-have-solar-power/
But of course there are nay-sayers everywhere. Even the UK.
Most of us--and especially Glenn--can poke holes in the argument (and just how many hours a day do you run your hair dryer?), and if it is the vertical swirl version in the picture that that company sells, some of the noise and structure arguments (not to mention the placement) may be semi-overcome.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=415993&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments