EDIT: the next 7 posts were split off from Glenn's Underground cabin Update topic.....
Good Morning everyone, Wow what an inspiration this thread is. I have Mikes book and have been studying it. Waiting for the DVDs to arrive.
Glen you have done amazing work. We live in Ontario Canada. Normal weather here would take us around -25 c in winter and plus 30 in summer. You can see why an underground home would be helpful in maintaining a more reasonable temperature and would cut heating costs (no cooling costs for us as we don't use air conditioning). Although it would make those hot days more bearable! 8)
We own a property of 36 acres. On the property back in the woods (about 1400 ft from the raod in the middle of the woods we have an old foundation from a home. It was there over 100 years ago. This leaves us with a pre dug uphill patio ;D. It is about 20' wide and 40' long. The end of it is open and on flat ground. Another plus as that is where the house will go and it will automatically face South, given where the patio is. There is already a slope to the land. It would seem like the foundation was dug into the side of the hill with what some would call a walk out basement.
We will build there and the have to back fill around it. It almost seems to good to be true with the hole already there. I am wondering if I am able to post a pic for you to view and if you offer some feed back on the way it currently sits?
Thanks so uch for all you offer.
ps. I should ad - I am a no permit kinda girl and will not be letting our local building officials in on my plan. We have thought of doing something along the lines of bringing in a modulr home to place on the road frontage part of the property so no questions will be asked as to where we are!!!
Wow, So great to have you here. w*
Please post pix and I and the others will be happy to make whatever suggestions we can.
The spare home in the front is a good idea and if it was usable could be done up to code for guest and a place to stay while working on your underground house. Not sure how the officials are in your area. [cool]
The old house is long gone. All that remains is what was at one time dug out for the foundation. That is the area we will use as the uphill patio.
I know this sounds really dumb, but how do I attach photos? What I hit the insert image icon It just says this (//) But how do I get the photo to show?
read this for image insertion (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11663.0)
w*
Here are the links on photo bucket. This is the foundation hole that we have been clearing out from fallen trees. It will act as the uphill patio. I would like to leave the tree growing in it, right where it is.
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/IMG_0288.jpg)
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/IMG_0287.jpg)
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/IMG_0286.jpg)
I hope this works
Beautiful uphill patio. [cool]
You can also insert a couple lines between your links to put spaces between the pictures but you did real good... :)
About the tree, yes, we preserved many trees around the perimeter of the house and saved them wherever we could.
Is it possible to drain the uphill patio to one side or the other around the proposed underground house. Also, I recommend putting in French Drains from the start. Mike is also recommending EPDM rather than Poly now. That is a wise recommendation. It is forgiving, heavier and will stretch rather than tear. I am adding layers of EPDM in a few problem areas this year. [ouch]
we will certainly put in frendh drains, as well as use the EPDM. I figure it is a small investment given the mortgage we will not have :).
Is this "hole" something you would consider starting with when looking to build an underground home?
We would like to stay on our property as it has a nice mixed wood bush. We tap the maples. It has trail cut all through it. We have all the fire wood needed and we have about 15 acres pasture/hay for our animals.
If we can pull off this house we will be 99% self reliant/sufficient, and have 0 debt :D.
I would try to look it over and see the best way to use it but, yes - I would try to incorporate it if it was in a useful location as you describe and the pix seem to show.
I like to get to know the land - the soil - the weather patterns... becoming intimate with the land so you have a better feeling of what you want to or can do. I think you are already getting into that as you know the direction your land faces and how the former basement can be used.
Another underground builder who drops in here once in a while, Bruce in Minnesota (Member name Lodestar) Uses organics rather than soil on top of his roof to keep the weight down and insulation value up. I would keep a few inches of soil first for fire protection unless the ground is always wet. Likely with cold winters you will need more roof insulation material though the thermal flywheel effect does help a lot. :)
w* I will enjoy this thread.You have a nice spot there for an under ground home. [cool]
I 2nd bentogo's comment. :) Welcome! GOod idea to clean out that spot so you know what your working with [cool]
Just remember with trees
they grow !
and their roots spread out substancially from where they are located.
You don't want that pretty tree roots appear in your bedroom later !
If your building into the earth I would remove all trees's close to the construction- you can always add potted plants and trees back in later and choose dwarf or plants that grew with small root balls and can be put into bunds or pots to limit their root spread.
My neighbor planted bamboo- its now half way across my garden too!
My other house has a tree and I decked arround it------3 times in 8 years as the base grew!
Thank you for the tree warning. I should have known that but certainly did not think of it.
I was back working more today and found a beautiful stash of large shale rock (1/2-1/4 thick) I have saved it all and placed it in a nice pile.
My question is, Do you think I can use this stone for a flooring material in the entrance way like you would a tile? I know it would have to be set properly in order not to crack, but if it's done right do you think it would last?
Another question, for our canadian winters I have read in a few places that others using this type of construction have opted to add 2" styrofoam insulation around the below ground portions of the house. Would the cellulose spray on type be any better?
The other thing I wondered is, is there any conceivable way to use a straw bale wall (with the posts) as long as they are not directly on the ground and if I use the Pond liner umbrella roof idea surrounding the entire house?
Sorry so many questions. Every time I go back there my brain goes crazy.
When cutting the posts, do the have to be dried before they can be used? We will be using cedar.
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/115_4168.jpg)
Shale rock that I have pulled out and piled to use in the front entrance
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/115_4169.jpg)
They may look small but Huge rocks piled for retaining walls and steps
(https://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh597/angiepel/115_4170.jpg)
To give an idea of how deep it is from above. Tires cleaned out and rocks getting piled
It dosen't look like much but, it's progress. Other pics I could not get as it was too dark. Now working on a path to cut for the tractor and bucket to clear it out.
I agree with UK4x4... trees grow & so do their roots - Glenn had to cut/dig/jackhammer out roots & rock where a large bullpine near the outside corner of the cabin had snaked its way under the floors d* Lots of work to replace half the floor - still needs the other half & what a mess!
BTW, looking forward to watching your build, heritageharvest :) There's a lot of advantages to an underground cabin - only remember these wise words from one of our "Master Carpenter" PEG "think like rain." Good that you plan on using the EPDM liner & French drains - a lot of stuff we did was experimental... most worked but some didn't - a learning process.
Quote from: heritageharvest on August 26, 2012, 05:18:41 PM
Thank you for the tree warning. I should have known that but certainly did not think of it.
As UK and Sassy mentioned, we had tree roots capable of breaking the floor to as far as 32 or more feet from the tree.
I was back working more today and found a beautiful stash of large shale rock (1/2-1/4 thick) I have saved it all and placed it in a nice pile.
My question is, Do you think I can use this stone for a flooring material in the entrance way like you would a tile? I know it would have to be set properly in order not to crack, but if it's done right do you think it would last?
It could be used if you really want to. We did exactly that and I tore it out this year as I was replacing the floor and adding French drains under it. We found it to be hard to clean the rough floor or the slate floor and have opted to use only the CBRI light duty floor - smooth only also but with color added to the top layer. Cleaning the slate always requires the use of a vacuum cleaner to clean the grout areas. Kept flush with the slate edges and very smooth would be an option but I wanted to mention the problems.
Another question, for our canadian winters I have read in a few places that others using this type of construction have opted to add 2" styrofoam insulation around the below ground portions of the house. Would the cellulose spray on type be any better?
Here the ground is warmer. I would add it to at least where the ground is a reasonable temperature. The ground is also your cooling in the summer so some can be a benefit. Mike Oehler mentioned insulating exposed upper areas later - doesn't seem it was in his book. Here the ground is probably near 50 to 65 all year so we only have to heat above 45 to 50 in the winter. If you live in a freezer, considerations would have to be different.
The other thing I wondered is, is there any conceivable way to use a straw bale wall (with the posts) as long as they are not directly on the ground and if I use the Pond liner umbrella roof idea surrounding the entire house?
It is possible though I would recommend sealing it entirely under, over and around with a heavy earth plaster with lime in it or stucco (not recommended by some) as the idea that rats don't like it because there is no food value is a myth. They like it because it is a warm shelter just like people and it is easy for them to carve out a home into. We have to keep D-Con Bait around the straw bale wall and replace it with fresh or another type to keep them out. Our local rats are wood rats normally making nests in the fields and brush using sticks and branches etc. As in Burma, they could double as food in rough times if not poisoned but... it's not that rough yet.
Sorry so many questions. Every time I go back there my brain goes crazy.
When cutting the posts, do the have to be dried before they can be used? We will be using cedar.
They do not have to be dried. They will shrink most in diameter - say 5/8 or more per foot dia. Length does not get much shrinkage but this type of building does not care about some movement. I do not recommend burying the posts in the ground, but rather piers with a rebar pin or at least pins driven into the ground a ways with a couple inch concrete pad on top of a piece of plastic vapor barrier. Drill a hole in the post to sit it on top of at least a 3/4 dia. rebar pin. Diagonal brace temporarily and backfill evenly both sides so as to not knock it out of plumb. I have had all posts that were in the damp ground rot off (three big ones - a few small ones). My ground was too hard to dig so went to the piers right away. No problem with them. The plastic bag method over charred logs seemed to increase the rate of rotting out taking only 3 years to start causing trouble.
I hope the above answers are of use to you. :)
Thank you, taht is a great help.
has anyone ever used this unbrella insulation method? http://earthshelters.com/green-blog/umbrella-homes/ (http://earthshelters.com/green-blog/umbrella-homes/)
I believe that is what Bruce did in Minnesota. Lodestar on this forum. He is not here often, but drops in once in a while. It is similar to Mike's but goes out farther with the membrane which is a good idea.
For anyone that has milled their own lumber,
we are wondering if there is some sort of calculation that can be done to detrmine how much lumber we can get from pine trees that are 3' in diameter. We would be using them for wall boards.
Also wondering how tong they will need to cure before using them.
From link - 900+ 36"x16'
I saw my own. You can use them damp but will get around 5/8 shrinkage per foot of width so I use two skill saws to make shiplap with a 7/8 wide lap and put them tight where I care about covering the gaps. Set one saw about 7/8 deep to run down the edge - the other to cut the strip off and do alternate sides. A router is a lot more work and even a pretty heavy duty one may burn out after a while. I burned out two before switching to the saws. A dado blade could do it or a shaper - etc.
Low tech I use the two skill saws.
Air dry can take up to a year to dry and shrink I find. I get impatient and shiplap then use them damp....let them dry on the wall.
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/420/420-085/420-085.html
Thanks Glen, that sure will speed things up.
Sorry what does this mean? I am a little slow at times lol! From link - 900+ 36"x16'
900+ Board feet from a 36 inch dia. log 16 feet long - from the table in the link I posted.... I was a bit too cryptic... :)
:) thank you
We are designing a 3 bedroom home. The bedrooms will run across the back of the house. My question is, Would it be helpfull to have the walls that seperate the bed rooms from the living areas only 3/4 walls (in height). I am thinking this would help with both air movement and light?
Any thought?
I think full height would be best as far as noise traveling - privacy concerns etc. Sassy would like me to get the top of the bathroom sealed off between the logs....and oh yeah.... a fan... [ouch]
One of Mike's goals in design of the underground house is to get light (not necessarily sunlight) from all 4 sides of each room. That should leave enough cross ventilation if you can do that. He uses things such as a sunscoop, hollywood wing, Royer Foyer, offset rooms, popouts...many different methods. Not always desired or possible for everyone everywhere but knowing the methods gives you much more flexibility in design. Info is both in the book and in the CD's along with extra notes he sends along.
Cutting and clearing will begin tomorrow. Trying to be sure we use Mikes method of not doing anything twice! We are carefully making sure we cut what we can use as posts and beams from the area first. This is going to be fun.
"It was there over 100 years ago. This leaves us with a pre dug uphill patio . It is about 20' wide and 40' long"
now here's something I was mulling on
100 years ago there was no such thing as a back hoe or digger, to dig a hole that large would have been quite an undertaking.
have you made sure that its not a natural water run off that was simply enlarged .....ie a seasonal river bed they lined on both sides and built over ?
Yes we have, we know for sure it was the foundation. We also know it was done by hand. There are the rock piles of what they pulled out everywhere back there. I'll take some photos for you tomorrow. Our neighbours mother still remembers the old place.
Quote from: heritageharvest on August 27, 2012, 06:56:10 PM
For anyone that has milled their own lumber,
we are wondering if there is some sort of calculation that can be done to detrmine how much lumber we can get from pine trees that are 3' in diameter. We would be using them for wall boards.
Also wondering how tong they will need to cure before using them.
Sawmilling lumber can be some what disheartening. Some times you are faced with a great deal of we did all that and only ended up with that. If you heat with wood you have no waste if you do not mind burning pine.
How long boards have to cure is a subject to its self.
(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/P7170593.jpg)
(https://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt15/rick91351/P7170600-1.jpg)
These two units were stickered by my grand son and I. How long they have to dry depends on weather, wind, humidity and ambient temps. We are blessed here in this area of Idaho with ideal air dring weather. How long does it take? I cheat I have a moisture meter. Prime conditions here four months if we are getting showers up to six months or more.....
Stickers are small boards ripped uniform width and thickness like 3/4 inch thick by an 1.25 inches wide more or less. Uniform thickness is more important that width.
Measure out our pile bottoms like 4X4s you should have five and the ground should be level and 4x4 should be equal distances from each other. If you are stacking 1x12s you place three down then a course of stickers. The stickers go directly over the 4x4s. Add the next course and sticker again directly over the other sticker and 4X4. So that is five stickers per course. So as you can see it will take a huge amount of stickers.
When the boards are dried then we break them down to plane or make molding or something out of them. But we keep the sickers in very good guarded condition because they are reused many many times. I make a pile top out of 2x4 and some heavy timbers and cover that with a plastic tarp. I used to use slabs off the logs but I seem to like this better. That keeps the weather off and stops the sun from warping the top boards so bad.
Motivation and inspiration.
(http://news.mymiddleearth.com/files/2012/03/Bag-End-1.png)
(http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/uploads/w/WalkingInMiddleEarth/90160.jpg)
[cool] Rick might find you some old roofing tin to replace the tarp with. Speaking from experience mind you. The tarp will breakdown on the sun. Shoot they break down anywhere. Mostly find them good for temporarily use and that is about it. I covered several hundred bf of Wormey Chestnut and the tarp gave way before I noticed it. Was only able to salvage about 1/3. :( Don't mind ruining pine but 100 yr old stuff is hard to come by.
Quote from: Redoverfarm on September 20, 2012, 02:21:17 PM
[cool] Rick might find you some old roofing tin to replace the tarp with. Speaking from experience mind you. The tarp will breakdown on the sun. Shoot they break down anywhere. Mostly find them good for temporarily use and that is about it. I covered several hundred bf of Wormey Chestnut and the tarp gave way before I noticed it. Was only able to salvage about 1/3. :( Don't mind ruining pine but 100 yr old stuff is hard to come by.
The one thing I do not like about the metal roofing strangely is the permanency. Not that I am short on storage space but it is just some thing else sitting around. All that lumber is now stored up at the ranch ready to be milled. Those plastic tarps, Bless them ;) are now doing duty in occupying the country sanitary land fill. Actually what works best here is covering pile tops with lumber wrap. However all my lumber warp is gone.
Before we lost all our saw and planer mills here. The mills used pile tops - 1x12 nailed underneath with five or six four foot 2x4. On top of those was lumber wrap and over that were 1x4 batts or battons over the cracks of the 1x12s. Planer mills would have acres of bunks like that stored, drying - four high if I remember right. Each had a pile top on it.
They worked great but we do not get the moisture you do. If we get an inch of rain here in 24 hours it is like in the news and a disaster. An afternoon of sprinkle your way is a real down pour here. 10% - 15% humidity and people here wondering when it is going to stop. Oh my word and it is so muggy outside! All our farm ground here would be a wasteland without irrigation. Here you could not even do dry land wheat and do much good at all.