healthcare

[williet]

So, I just read a piece about Hillary's "required" health insurance plan. What do you folks think about our government requiring us to purchase a healthcare plan. If we got money in the bank...we gotta give part of it to an insurance company....anybody else out there think the insurance industry needs some more of our money?

[Sassy]

Right now we can put a certain amount of money in a Health Savings acct - but I think you lose whatever money is left over at the end of the year - anything you don't spend.  

I'm really leary of the health plan Hilary is proposing.  Look at the cost of Medicaid, Medicare, & the newest addition to Medicare - the drug option.  The cost is totally out f control.

The only "socialized" medical plan I've seen that works is the Veterans Administration.  They have been held to some extremely high standards - higher than in the private sector - each medical facility is graded on a monthly basis... they lose money if they don't keep the standards up - plus they focus strongly on patient satisfaction.

Another thing the VA has going for it is their drug costs.  The gov't has negotiated with the pharmaceutical companies for greatly discounted prices...  this saves the taxpayers millions $$ every year.

For some reason (probably because the pharmaceutical companies hold all the power) Medicaid & Medicare haven't been allowed to negotiate lower prices for drugs so the prices are out of this world.

We are still going to have the problem of millions of illegal aliens using our ER's as their healthcare provider of choice.  If they have a child born here, the family immediately becomes eligible for Medicaid, food stamps, welfare, bilingual schooling with free breakfasts & lunches - all free - no questions asked....

So, I don't know what the answer is to the health care situation.  I was paying $408 every 2 weeks for Kaiser -that was with me working part-time.   Glenn NEVER goes to the doctor, I go occasionally.  26x 408 - how much is that a year?  $10,806 (had to get my trusty calculator on computer) So, would it be better to pay as we go?  Probably...  

When you have free or socialized medicine, or even a well compensated health insurance plan, people tend to take advantage of it & over use it... It's nice when you need it but how do you limit it?  

[tanya]

I don't like it at all.  I never plan to go to any doctor unless I have some cureable accident like a broken leg with the bone sticking out or a cut that needs stitches and duck tape and super glue wont work.  No I don't want to be required to ay for services I never intend to use.  Especially with and industry that has been allowed to police itself, run outside and above the law for centuires in this country  the only comparable industry is the oil industry although the food insustry is catching up nicely.  The difference is that the oil and food industries don't literally hold peoples lives inther hands.  Well i suppose that is a matter for debate when you look at the hungry and cold but you can be absolutely sure that if people are hungry and cold long enough they will need a doctor I suspect a conspiracy.  I bet the top 4% of financial holders of US dollars are top owners in these same stocks.  The only way to save our health care system is to educate the populus about health and nutrition and to cap insurance agencies and other corporate CEO profits.  I know it's socialist communist but there are some things that human life does depend on and maybe even in a free enterprise world we need to look at those areas a little closer.  

[MountainDon]

Right now we can put a certain amount of money in a Health Savings acct - but I think you lose whatever money is left over at the end of the year - anything you don't spend.  

That's correct Sassy. I usually guess low; just put aside enough in the plan to cover things I'm certain about. It helps a little in saving on the tax dollars on those amounts. However, if we were not taxed on our incomes then we wouldn't have to worry about that detail. But that's another rant.

I don't pretend to have the answer to the problem of health care and health care costs. The costs for the illegals are a big part of the problem.

I'm torn on this. I don't think government can efficiently run an operation as big as this. I also don't like the current system knowing of all the places profits are made running the system.

Canada's system is not perfect. I personally saw problems when my mother was living her last 2 years. But it was a comfort for her knowing that whatever happened was "looked after".

I have read, but not researched for veracity, that the UK system is even worse as far as quality and timeliness of care.

My personal experience here is that the care system has worked well for me. Was hasn't worked well is seeing the costs that are billed to my insurance company. I know those will come back to haunt me in the future in the form of insurability, or pricing.

The little socialist hiding in me screams out that is not fair. Maybe we expect too much, because we have so much care available, if we have insurance that will pay for it.  

The capitalist in me usually has an answer for other socialist attacks on my capitalist beliefs. He comes up short on this question.

Requiring us to have and pay for health insurance is a disguised form of taxation (or something like that).

Hillary's plan has got to include more bureaucracy and costs she's not telling us about.

When you have free or socialized medicine, or even a well compensated health insurance plan, people tend to take advantage of it & over use it... It's nice when you need it but how do you limit it?  

I believe that to be true and a likely drain on the free-for-all socialized medicine. On the other hand you must admit that people without any or without adequate insurance coverage may delay doctor visits, all to their personal physical detriment. What to do?

[benevolance]

The simple answer is socialization of the drug companies, and health care providers

The problem is that they are so big so powerful that any administration that tries to reign in the Drug companies, and the health care providers runs a pretty good risk of visiting JFK JR... sooner than later and they will be delivered to JFK by the same means :-/

The drug companies are not alone in the out of control profit margins...Hospitals make a fortune as well Doctors are severely overpaid...

The one thing that has helped the Canadian Health care last as long as it has are  medications that are 80-90% less! A broken arm in Canada costs about 30-40% to fix compared to the USA...Doctors and Nurses make less (sorry Sassy)...

And the government drags its heels to increase salaries for Doctors, Nurses, medications....the drug companies and health care providers do not have free reign to charge what they feel is appropriate...

There is no perfect system! Whatever plan comes about it will take a major infusion of Cash from the Government to work.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that The government can absolutely interject to control salaries for Doctors nurses and the costs of medication and medical equipment...Most of the civilized world other than the USA has socialized healthcare... Medical costs in the USA are higer per capita than anywhere else in the world... Doctors can threaten to strike or whatever...Let them threaten!

Hear me out folks..I know that growing up in Canada Doctors and Nurses were heavily recruited to move to the USA by the health care companies... They could promise  them double or more pay raises the second they started working and lighter work loads...etc.. Because the health care providers could charge whatever they wanted they could easily overpay to cherry pick Canadian doctors and Nurses. If the Government reigned in the salaries for Doctors and Nurses in this country...Where would the Doctors and Nurses go? Even with pay cuts they would make more in America at their trade than anywhere else in the world...

Like Glenn I never go to the Doctor...I have  subjected myself to a couple extremely painful self procedures because I did not have insurance...Be it removing a Corn cutting off a Hemaroid putting my thumb back in its socket...In Canada I could go to the Doctor or the emergency room and it is free!..In America without insurance the Doctor is not an option for the majority.

Don is right that the Illegals present a huge problem...12 million people getting free medical attention. if 12 million Americans had free health insurance that would help. But that is only 3% of the population folks We bash illegals all the time here, but they are only 3% of the American population. Sidenote I do not want to hear the conspiracy theories about re-claiming the west...When they have 50% population in any state we can talk. Even in California they have something like 5 or 6% of the population...This is not enough to be taken seriously...This is a fear tactic by the neo-cons to stir us up into a frenzy. It is a self created Quest to which our leaders will self appoint themselves to lead for us. All that they ask in return is that we vote for them to help us clean up the problem.

Back to health care.

More so than the 12 million people getting free Health care the problem is that compared to the standard of living in the USA and the average salary medical costs are way out of proportion...And the cost of Medical care increases much faster than the increase in the average american wage or even the rate of inflation.

The reason Socialization would work is the government could put limitations in place on the rate of cost increases to match inflation in the country. Meaning that if the average american makes 3% more money next year their average medical costs cannot increase by 15%..It cannot increase more than what the people in America are actually making!

The Federal Government has the means to lean on the FDA they can just threaten to remove all the legislation that is in place to protect the Drug Companies and their profits. There is a reason that Drug companies make more than any other companies in the world (excluding oil) We do not need the drug companies...We have the ability to do research exclusively in Universities and hospitals...We can cut the drug companies out of the loop for new medical discoveries... We have the means to leverage the Drug companies...It is time we started to use it.

Trouble is that to put a system like this in place a whole big bunch of Politicians would have to risk their careers and likely their lives even to see it through. Drug companies are huge lobbyists and kickback millions and millions of dollars to politicians and political parties so that they get a free ride and the government does not interfere with their profits.

Who would be the first politician to run the risk of life and liberty to put this in place...What politician would effectively cut off all the funding for their next election by proposing legislation against the drug Companies and Health care providers.

The system is broke itself of politics. to fix anything major like  healthcare and for it to work permanently we really need to fix our system of government.

This is doable..But very, very improbable folks. The wealthy and elite in this country have too much at stake to let any meaningful reforms take place

And so health care is going to remain as is mostly

[glenn kangiser]

First you have to tell these guys they can't have it back, Peter.

http://www.aztlan.net/la_gran_marcha.htm

While maybe not all illegal, a lot of our area and the major farming areas are around 70% Mexican in our schools.  It puts quite a load on the school and the health care system.  

Fred had an infection we needed a prescription for on a job out of town and we were refused service at a clinic because they were overloaded - after we waited a couple hours.  None of the patients there spoke English.  

[MountainDon]

I do not want to hear the conspiracy theories about re-claiming the west...When they have 50% population in any state we can talk.

Peter are you talking about a population of 50% illegals or legals?? The illegals can
t take over anything through voting... do you mean they're going to arm themselves and take over? There are great proportions os Hispanics in the SW. NM has 43.4%, AZ 28.5%, CA 35.2%, NV 22.5%, TX 35.2%.... all from US census data 2006.

[John Raabe]

Over the weekend I saw Michael Moore's new movie, "Sicko".

This is the best film he has ever done. None of the embarrassing Charlton Heston sting interviews.

I think Americans are being brain washed about the perils of "socialized medicine" or, more accurately, a single payer health system. Most of the enlightened European countries, Canada and many other countries have been able to make this work and their citizens love it.

I wonder what would happen if you asked Americans if they would prefer to spend their tax dollars on expensive hardware and foreign military adventures or, alternatively, spend that money on health care and preventative measures to raise the state of health of our fellow countrymen.

One of the most important comments in the movie was from a Brit who said that many Americans, especially the poor, are kept in fear and discouragement and will not then vote or protest against a system that keeps them from having the rights and respect that is demanded in many other democracies.

Sicko Site

[benevolance]

Don

your figures are off....They are of people who have spanish ancestry..I am talking about the illegals and this notion that they are all flooding the southwest to take it over for Mexico... We have seen the scare tactic reports recently..

In Boston there are a lot of Irish descendants (no not the musical group, who I listen to).. but there is no threat of any funny business because once here the immigrants considered themselves Americans

Just like all the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation immigrants that speak/spoke spanish and now are regular americans

[Sassy]

I admit, nurses are well paid   but most of the doctors I know are working at least 2 jobs, some  are working up to 4 jobs - 24 hr shifts (yeh, I work 16-17 hr shifts at times, usually 13 hrs & don't get paid overtime for the hours over 8 like most industries get   )   Unless you are a specialist in cardiology or surgery or some new procedure, the docs aren't compensated near what all the schooling & grueling internship/residency they go through...  they are reimbursed by "DRG's" diagnostic ?? can't remember the rest off-hand  :-? .  The # of US citizens that are going into medicine is declining due to the expenses of college, malpractice insurance etc, office & staff costs.  I work with mostly foreign docs...

Thanks, Don, for the percentages!  The 12 million illegal number is very conservative - there are speculations that there are 20-40 million illegals... don't think we'll ever know the real numbers...  :-/

The pharmaceutical companies have a stranglehold on our politicians & the FDA is in bed with them - you have gov't officials going to CEO & director positions in big pharm & the CEO's etc going to gov't... the FDA also controls the food & supplements.  I've posted before, that the FDA is quickly imposing "Codex" on the US population...

Ron Paul has introduced legislation - go to link http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/health-freedom/

Hillary's plan
Clinton has no answers for undocumented immigrants

You are right, it is a complicated mess - ER's are closing down all over the country because of the huge burden of treating illegal aliens for free!  I work with nurses who work at local hospitals - they say that the majority of the people who frequent the ER's & maternity wards can't speak English, so then we are required to supply interpreters... it is never ending.

I wouldn't have such a problem if these people who come into our country illegally would make an effort to assimilate - learn the English language, respect our parks (stop dumping trash & diapers!!), pay for their medical.  We should stop providing interpreters, bilingual teachers, stop allowing babies born illegally in the US to illegal mothers from getting citizenship status... that, in itself, would curb a lot of the problem - even if we deliver the babies for free, the mother & child gets sent back to their country of origin!  

Ok, enough of my rant...  :-/

[benevolance]

Don

I was talking illegals.. they represent 3% of the people in America...

I think it is absolute balderdash to say that legal hispanic americans that have been here for 50+ years are planning to re-claim the west for Mexico..

[benevolance]

sassy

Seems we pretty much agree on everything.. I too have seen some estimates for illegals as high as 20 million as opposed to 12 million.... There is just no real way of knowing

[Sassy]

Peter, did you read the link Glenn posted?  Did you see the millions of people marching on Cinco de Mayo the past couple years?  Do you see the refusal to assimilate into our country?  They are trying to make Spanish the official language in Texas!  I will find a link...

Here is another link about healthcare http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php  There's lots of good info & also petitions you can sign.

[benevolance]

Sassy

I find it damn rude not to learn the language....My grandmother was from Belgium, a war bride! She gave up flemish and learned english immediately..She always told me how rude it was when we were at a gas station and the owner/clerk was speaking pakistani to the other workers(family)...She would tell them that we speak english in Canada!

The hispanics sadly are not the only group that are refusing to learn english...It seems to be the way with the people coming from China, Lebanon, India...They come here and speak a language other than english... They can ask direction in english in an emergency...But they want to speak and expect to speak their native tongue in America 99% of the time... Learning this language and becoming part of society is not a priority for them...

So it is hard to single the Mexicans out for this when all immigrants are guilty of it...

[Sassy]

In most cases I include ALL illegals - that was an example of one nationality...

I work with people from all over the world - they learn English well enough to actually graduate from medical or nursing school.  Can you imagine how difficult that must be?  There are so many difficult concepts & info that are hard enough to understand in your own language, let alone, in a 2nd language.  I take my hat of to them!

My grandmother spoke Norwegian but learned English - she would speak Norwegian in front of the kids when she didn't want them to know what she was saying, other than that, it was English.  It's great to be bilingual but to be polite, in the United States, our national language is English & that's what should be spoken in public.  

I used to enjoy speaking Spanish to the patients - it helped me keep more fluent in it - but now, I almost resist doing that just for the principle.  

[benevolance]

my wife and I stay out of the mexican restaurants for the same reason...There is one here that has been open for 28 years owned by locals and all white people work there...No soccer games playing on the TV or annoying mexican music turned up way too loud playing in spanish....

I refuse to just go to the mexican restaurants so they can send money back to Mexico to help their friends and family come here illegally

[glenn kangiser]

I stay away from Mexican restaurants mostly because of the upset stomach and flatulence issues. :-?

I don't mind real good Mexican food once in a while but it is hard to find.  Dumping chile powder in something and calling it Mexican food just kills my guts for hours to days. :-/

[PEG688]

She would tell them that we speak english in Canada!

Eh WHAT ABOUT US FROGS! Canada is a bilingual country Peter.

So who can bring the US health care , that works, Hillary ?

[MountainDon]

Eh WHAT ABOUT US FROGS! Canada is a bilingual country Peter.  

Parlez vous Francais, Pierre?

And in the home of the "sepratistes", Quebec, English is not recognized as an official language. I believe there has been much controversy over English language on store signs.  That's the direction I feel a lot of Hispanics here would like to go.

Anyone remember the FLQ (Front de Libération du Québec) blowing up Royal Mail mailboxes? Probably not. That news probably barely made it to the USA. Long time ago too. Homegrown terrorists.

But back to US Health Care. We need something done. Something more than a Band Aid.

[benevolance]

I speak enough french to get direction and order a meal....Well I dated a french school teacher once...I learned a few other things too he he

If I was in Quebec for a month it would all come back I think...We had to take French in School...Grammer, spelling, vocabulary the whole works... I used to be able to listen to french radio and understand most of what was said.. I probably stll could stumble through reading some of a french newspaper

Been 15 years since I really read or spoke any amount of French...

[MountainDon]

Yeah, go spend a few weeks in some back woods small town. Pretty much French speaking and French speaking only. Immersion does work; sink or swim.    

I've always found it difficult to follow what the native French speakers were saying; they speak too fast for me to comprehend them.  I guess they might say the same of most of us. I can read French tho. Helped a lot overseas a few decades ago.

[benevolance]

oh and by the way... read my post again guys... I was quoting my grandmother..At no time was I indicating that I believed Canada was for English Only... I  think Quebec is a wonderful place and Montreal one of the worlds best cities..

[benevolance]

Yes Don I went to Montreal when I was in high school...If I got them to repeat or speak slowly I was not too bad off...

Normal speed though.... Holy crap