Counties with few, none or cheap permits

Started by Aerco, January 31, 2016, 12:18:33 AM

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Aerco

I am sure this subject has come up before and will again.  But if anyone here has first hand knowledge of counties where it is possible to build your own small home without forking out thousands or even tens of thousands for permits, I would love to know.  I really want to build a modest place of my own, in  my own way, without having to pander to to officials and other people's notions of how I should live.   And I know there will be a few people here who will tell me that permits and codes are all about safety and blablabla... I don't need to hear it.  I'm a self-taught engineer and I have been involved with designing and building airplanes and you can be quite sure that I value keeping my warm pink flesh intact, whether  in an airplane or in my home.   Permits are primarily about revenue gathering and controlling people. If you wish to argue the point, fine , but this post is not about the merits of that, I simply would like to know from people who had first hand experience with dealing with local bureaucracy that wasn't overly authoritarian or insanely expensive.


Do you know a place? Let me know!

MushCreek

I feel the same way! Unfortunately, in this day and age, things have certainly changed. A couple things to consider are whether or not an insurance company will cover your place, and re-sale if you ever want to do that. I would like to see a rule that you can build whatever you want on your own property, so long as it doesn't cause any harm to your neighbors. That, and it would have to pass an inspection before it could be sold to the next owner. I have no problem with someone living in a run-down shack with bare wires hanging out if they so desire, but they shouldn't be able to sell it to an unsuspecting party.

Some of the rules are frustrating. Building inspectors don't handle 'different' very well. I originally wanted to build a timber frame, from the big oak trees on my property. I ran into two problems. The lumber has to be graded and stamped, and the structure has to be engineered. Both issues were financial deal-breakers. Any idiot can see that massive timbers, made of solid oak are going to be stronger than crap lumber from a big box store, but it doesn't compute when looking at the official code book.

To answer your original question: I built in upstate SC, Greenville County, but outside the city limits. I thought the permit fees were fair ($280 for septic and $400 for the house). They were accepting of a DIY build, and inspections were light and cursory. I don't know if they could see at a glance that I knew my stuff, or if they just didn't care, but they were never here more than a few minutes. We are under the out-dated IRC2006 codes, but my house exceeds even the latest codes in regards to structure, safety, and energy efficiency. There are still rural areas in the south that don't have building departments, so by default, have no inspections. I think pretty much most, if not all states have rules that cover the entire state, and if there is no local building department, and you are still required by law to follow building codes, even if there is no one there to enforce them. It's kind of like tampering with the emissions systems on a car; even if they don't do smog checks in your area, it is still a federal offense.
Jay

I'm not poor- I'm financially underpowered.


Don_P

I'm not sure that I'd decide where to live based exclusively on that criteria. Our fees are similar to MushCreek's, that department isn't paying its own wages at those prices.

Aerco

It's not my only criteria, no. I would prefer a warm and sunny climate, but may have to compromise.   Just found a town in Idaho, for example, that has no building restrictions of any kind to speak of - but you can't touch an acre of land there for less than  $20k. Too expensive. And cold in winter...  Places like Brewster County in Texas; few restriction, but no water, no roads, not even cell service. Lots of sun though.  It's all a compromise.

To come back to the analogy of home built aircraft: In the US we are allowed a freedom to design and build just about anything we can dream up. You have the right to produce something truly outstanding or a death trap. Once it has passed its very cursory inspection (mostly paperwork) you get to test fly it for a period and if it still flies after that, you are free to use it like any other airplane, except for commercial purposes.  We have no problems getting insurance for these aircraft, their resale value can be higher than many commercially produced airplanes and usually they outperform them. It's a system that works just great.  Legally we are obliged to have a placard  on the airplane stating that it was home built and warn the passenger of that. They can decide if they want to fly in it.  Now anyone can see that an amateur designed and built airplane has far greater potential to kill somebody (usually the builder)  than a house would.    But the name of safety will always be invoked with houses and building codes.  There ought to be a owner-builder category of houses. If it was ever re-sold, there would be a similar statement somewhere on the house ("This house was not necessarily built to any accepted codes" or something like that).  After a while, insurance companies would realize that there isn't any special danger attached to these houses and it wouldn't be a problem anymore.  I really do not care too much about resale, and if I ever did, I would probably sell to a person like me who doesn't care either. 

DutchMo

In my county (Crawford County, MO), there is no building department, and no permitting or fees of any kind (other than property tax).  Land prices here are fairly reasonable ($1500-2000 an acre).  There are many other counties around Missouri like that as well.  The lack of fees and oversight was one of the primary attractions to the land I ended up buying.  I'd venture to say you can likely find many states with similar spots, but some spots will be hard to get to.

HOWEVER, as I get closer to actually starting to build, the lack of oversight is not quite as attractive to me as it once was.  Since I will be building for the first time, I find myself a bit more nervous than I used to be about my lack of experience, even though I've read a lot and spent many hours poring over my plans.  It is kind of exciting and kind of scary at the same time knowing there will be nobody looking over my shoulder to check my build for best practices and small details that I may have overlooked.  I'm glad not to have the permits, fees, and red tape, but I've come to value an experienced eye and a thoughtful word of advice more than I thought I would.  Many building inspectors can be that eye, I think.

I'm also an engineer by trade, with a strong desire to do as much as I can myself, but I always remind myself that at work I'm always part of a team, and the team includes several disciplines in order to provide adequate experience and expertise for the thing we are building.

Not to say "don't go for it", just trying to share my thought process so far.  I am still going for it, and I wish you the best on your journey! 


Don_P

The work I've seen in MO  :-\, you're not far from Rolla IIRC. Not that I build for the inspector, none of us appreciates a nanny over our shoulder, but when there isn't one the general quality of work and the level of understanding suffers. Asking advice in those places isn't necessarily helpful, if you own a hammer you're a contractor, if you were a contractor you are a home inspector. It is not an upward curve. There's the other side of freedom, the freedom to fail, which is fine but watch your step.

DutchMo

Don, you've got it right.  Our place is about 30 minutes from Rolla.  We've had experience at our primary residence with a wide variability in workmanship when we've hired plumbers, electricians, and concrete work out for minor repairs and remodel projects.  I love the "freedom" aspect of living here, but it is definitely "buyer beware", or in my case "builder beware".  Lots of homework to be done!

I've learned a lot over the past few years of research and planning, but I'm also slowly learning that there's no substitute for experience, and book learning is good, but doesn't equal experience.  I've met several neighbors in my area who have self-built homes that seem rather sketchy even to my untrained eye.  But to ask some of them, their way is the best simply because their creation hasn't fallen down yet.

I'm just aiming to go slow, learn much, and hopefully remain humble enough to listen carefully to advice as I go. 

kbaum

I live in East Central South Dakota.  I bought bare land for 2000 an acre.  When I said bare, it only has grass on it.  I moved an house on it and the only permits I had was $150 building permit.  I have since moved in 5 buildings and only paid $35 for the last one since it was 24'X30' school house and all of the locals knew about it and I didn't want to get in trouble with the Director of Equalization.  He was checking over his books about the 4 other buildings, and I said they were permanent because they weren't attached to the ground.  They are all on "skids" and can be moved.  He let me pass.  ;D

rick91351

Quote from: Don_P on February 03, 2016, 11:23:30 AM
The work I've seen in MO  :-\, you're not far from Rolla IIRC. Not that I build for the inspector, none of us appreciates a nanny over our shoulder, but when there isn't one the general quality of work and the level of understanding suffers. Asking advice in those places isn't necessarily helpful, if you own a hammer you're a contractor, if you were a contractor you are a home inspector. It is not an upward curve. There's the other side of freedom, the freedom to fail, which is fine but watch your step.

Same story here in this county - they had a building inspector but he never showed up or answered questions or .......  Then as I ave posted before they had a building fail up here in the snow country.  County got sued because they granted the building permit.....  That put an end to cheap $100 permits and no inspections.

Someones idea of build it stout lacked greatly as the snow smashed it to the ground.......  That did breed a over cautiousness and contractors and DIY had to learn the Code.  But quality went way up..... it also cost us a lot in engineering that it would not have now.....  Not that I am complaining This house is here to stay....... 
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.


garyc

I live in the city of Troy, Mo, that is in Lincoln Co. The city uses the 2009 International Building Code and in the county they have no building codes at all and that is where I'm building our next house. It does make life a lot easier building a house but I still want it built right. So I will hire an experienced carpenter to help out.     
If it wasn't for bad luck . I would 't have any luck at all.

rick91351

Quote from: garyc on February 03, 2016, 03:04:22 PM
I live in the city of Troy, Mo, that is in Lincoln Co. The city uses the 2009 International Building Code and in the county they have no building codes at all and that is where I'm building our next house. It does make life a lot easier building a house but I still want it built right. So I will hire an experienced carpenter to help out.     

Great idea I did much the same and saved a lot of headaches.  Other than there are a hundred ways to frame a house.....like mindedness is a good  idea.....   ;)  Or you don't mind - your in charge but I'm still signing the checks..... ;D
Proverbs 24:3-5 Through wisdom is an house builded; an by understanding it is established.  4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.  5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.

midrover170

Boise County, Idaho. But, it sounds like you don't like the winter so you probably want to pass on that area. Even though there's no firm permitting requirement there, I designed the heck out of my structure and happy that I did. First winter was one of the biggest the area has seen in 30+ years. Some seriously wet, heavy stuff up there.

Good luck.

garyc

Rick! I wish I would have hired an expert when I put in my culvert pipe the first time. Instead of replacing it twice. Probably would have saved myself a lot of money. The last big build I did was a 5000 sq-ft building for our business. I hired three experienced carpenters with building code knowledge at 38.00 hr, was money well spent.
If it wasn't for bad luck . I would 't have any luck at all.

MushCreek

The inspectors around here don't look at much; I certainly wouldn't trust them to catch mistakes. I had one inspection when I poured the basement slab, before there were any walls. The very next inspection was Rough Framing, Rough Electric, and Rough Plumbing. I built the entire house, roofed it, and roughed in the plumbing and electric, but they were only on-site for three minutes. They didn't even shut the truck off! They have no idea what I used for roof sheathing, or if it was properly fastened.

I think if you follow prescriptive code and do careful work, your house will be better than most houses built by 'professionals'. I had my barn framed by pros because it was too big for me to handle, and they did very sloppy work. One large wall doesn't meet code because they used 2X6's instead of 2X8's, but the inspector never mentioned it. One door opening was so far our of square I had to cut the nails and beat the frame with a sledge hammer to fit the door in. Most of the work I did on my house I had never done before, but I know that it exceeds code and will never fall down. The code books seem daunting because they are huge, but just take it one thing at a time. Building stairs? Read that part, and make sure your design and execution fits the rules. Go through the house system by system, and next thing you know, it will be done! You eat an elephant one bite at a time.
Jay

I'm not poor- I'm financially underpowered.


akemt

We just bought in Central MO (Morgan County) - no building codes there either and land is dang cheap compared to where we live now (SE Alaska).  Here land is expensive but out-of-city building codes are SUPER minimal (to scale hand drawing of your lot, double sided form to fill out, and less than $500 with no building inspections aside from where it sits on the lot...though septic is a huge deal here).  Best of luck!
Catherine

Stay-at-home, homeschooling mother of 6 in "nowhere" Alaska

Don_P

Whoops, you have codes, there is no enforcement.
Not to defend poor workmen but I've not seen licensed contractors build the types of foundations, stairs and roofs I've seen all too often here and elsewhere by DIY's. Do eat the elephant one bite at a time, but on paper first. Running up to a problem and then figuring out a solution can be costly. When I look at a set of plans I look at the 3 dimensional parts first, the roof and stairs. Most people can think in flat 2 dimensional planes easily, clean up details and they are usually good to go. That 3rd dimension gets you most often. Drawing programs like Sketchup can be a real help there.


Aerco

I was hoping this would not become another "codes are there to protect you!" kind of thread.    I already stated that I have no intention of building some kind of dangerous and ramshackle eye-sore.  I was merely asking for first hand information about counties or cities, nationwide, that have either cheap or no permit FEES. I do not object to minimum standards of some kind, I object to outrageous fees that border on extortion. That is all.

Has anyone here built any dwelling anywhere where the fees were reasonable or zero?  Please let me hear your experiences.

Don_P


Aerco

Specific examples? Which states, Which counties?

Aerco

Quote from: akemt on February 04, 2016, 11:48:21 PM
We just bought in Central MO (Morgan County) - no building codes there either and land is dang cheap compared to where we live now (SE Alaska).  Here land is expensive but out-of-city building codes are SUPER minimal (to scale hand drawing of your lot, double sided form to fill out, and less than $500 with no building inspections aside from where it sits on the lot...though septic is a huge deal here).  Best of luck!

Thank you, that's the kind of information I was looking for.