10ft walls on Little House

[Bluemoon]

I plan to build 10ft walls on my "Little House" project so that I gain extra headroom in the loft however the Little House plan doesnt show how to frame the loft.  From the forum I believe this would require the use of 2 X 6 studs then notching them to let in a beam, the ends of the loft joists would then rest on the beam.

1) Is the correct approach?
2) What dimension should beam be (e.g. 2 X 8 or 2 X 10)?
3) Is there an example of this somewhere in the forum so that I can see how it is done?

Thanks

[MountainDon]

To give good answers to many questions it is necessary to know where the project will be built. The geographic area is fine. Things like snow and wind loads require consideration, as does soil type, frost depths, etc.

A handy method is to display the location as mine appears.  There is a guide how to make this  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4973.0


Edit: I see in your other post you are in NW Ontario. The ground snow load is going to be very important. Do you know what it is in pounds per sq ft, so those of us in the non metric USA can know without converting (though we can do so if needed). Snow loads may make it necessary to find a better method to increase loft headroom.

[John Raabe]

The Little House plans are designed for the rafters to be tied to the loft joists. See the Cross Section of the 14' wide gable design on page 4 of your plans. The detail on page 5 shows how to connect these. This is a small "crawl in" or storage loft that can use a movable ladder for access.

What you want to with 10' tall 2x6 studs and a notched ledger for a taller loft is outside the range of the Little House plans and you should not build this heavier house on the Little House foundation. That design is detailed in the 20' wide 1-1/2 story plans. The wider building allows for real headroom in the loft and a cottage stairway to get up there. Neither of these work as well in the 14' width.

See the Gallery for several 20' wide 1-1/2 story houses.

[MountainDon]

Canadian ground snow load map. In lbs per sq ft!!!!

Most of NW Ont. is 60 lbs or greater. Very bad idea to do as proposed with that loading.

[Bluemoon]

Thanks for the replys, as suggested I have updated my profile to include my location.

Unfortunately I am limited on the size I can build and going to the 20' wide 1 1/2 story plan is not possible for me.  Looking though the gallery I am now thinking I should have bought plans for the Builders Cottage or the Victoria Cottage, not the Little House.  I will spend some more time looking through the website and figure out what I need so that I dont waste anymore money on plans that are not right for me.

Thanks again,  I am sure I will have more questions soon.

[John Raabe]

Bluemoon:

You can update your Little House plans to the Enchilada (which includes the Builder's cottage) for the price difference between the two. (Contact: orders@countryplans.com).

The Builder's cottage still has a small loft with rafters and loft joists connected. This plan does not include the ledger supported loft floor. It also has a one-story concrete perimeter foundation which should be built as a two story foundation (8" wall, 8x16 Ftr) if you are going to have a taller more heavily loaded loft.

My point is that you will still need to modify plans for what you want to do.

I would start first with a floorplan layout and see if you can fit a stair and all that you want to put in the place. Then do a cross section and see what space you could get into the loft and how you support the roof loads. Make sure the space works and that you can find a way to safely build the structure you want. You can post scanned sketches and get comments and suggestions as this evolves.

[Bluemoon]

Thanks John

In my excitement to get going I may have been a little to hasty.  Snow is almost gone from the site, so I can now access the spot I will be building on and see if there are any other issues that I need to take into consideration.  I think a few weeks of planning are in order.

[Jared Drake]

I see this hasn't had a reply in more than 120 days, but I'm going to resurrect it anyway. So, with 2x6 walls the Little House shouldn't be built with 10 or 12 foot sidewalls? Am I understanding correctly?
Jared

[MountainDon]

So, with 2x6 walls the Little House shouldn't be built with 10 or 12 foot sidewalls?

That answer starts with.... depends.   

The key thing to remember, IMO, is that IF ordinary rafters are used there must be rafter ties at the top of the wall (or in the lower third of the rafter). Loft floor joists do not count as rafter ties when the loft floor joists are below the top of the wall.

It depends then on what type of roof; rafters and ridge board, the norm, as I look at it? Rafters and ridge beam? Roof trusses?  And other things.

What are you trying to accomplish?  Drawings would be cool, but good word pictures can suffice too.

[Jared Drake]

LOL So many answers on this forum begin with "It depends..." As of right now I have no concrete plans. I'm going to look at 20 acres on Friday. I won't decide on any kind of plans until I have land that consists of more than a city lot. I was just curious.
Jared

[John Raabe]

Be sure to check out the land planning tools at the main CountryPlans site.

http://www.countryplans.com/tools.html

Your land and site choices will have a big voice in the building and layout that will work best for your project.

Far too many people get a building site that will fight them every step of the way...

[small cabin dreamer]

I am a long time lurker, and am posting a question to this 10Ft wall topic.
If I want to modify the foundation to support a 10Ft wall would this then be acceptable, Like using the foundation from the Victoria cottage, something beefed up like that, but not going that wide, and then still putting a 12/12 pitch roof.

[OlJarhead]

In all honesty I'm one of those who looked at pictures and what others had done and more or less followed right along putting 10' tall 2x6 walls on 16" centers on a foundation not designed for them and built the loft with an inset ledger down 24" from the top of the walls and then used cross ties only.

So far, after 3 years, it's held well and perhaps because the 12x12 pitch doesn't allow for any snow loading however I'm unhappy with the foundation and have plans to improve it (quite possibly by putting in dry stacked concrete).

I've yet to get all of the foundation tied in tight enough (cross bracing) though what I have has worked 'ok'.  In my opinion (now having done things in a rush and looking back) it would be best to start with a good strong foundation (concrete footers and walls or at least well placed sonotubes and heavy posts and beams (heaver then the 4x4 and 4x8 stuff I did) that isn't very high off the ground and very well tied together and then put a heavier floor in (then you think you need) and reduce any cantilever to no more then 1/2 the depth of the floor joists (so a 2x12 floor joist gives a 6" cantilever)....then I suspect if you put heavy tall walls onto your cabin with a useable loft (and I'm talking about the 14x28 builders cabin here) you'll be certain the floor will support it as well as the wood stove etc and there won't be movement in the structure when someone like me walks across the loft (270lbs and when I walk in the loft the structure moves a bit).

I hope this helps anyone who's considering what I've done. 

Don't get me wrong though!  I love my little builders cottage with it's tall loft; I just wish I'd built a much heavier floor and foundation under it because now I'm going to go back and try to put one under it now that's it's nearly all built!

[MountainDon]

What else is to be changed when the wall height is raised from 8 to 10 feet? 

If nothing else is changed then the additional 2 feet of height will have no great effect on the remainder of the structure. It will change the forces of the wind on the entire structure and that will place more stress on everything including the foundation and floor

Many changes will affect other portions of the structure though, so one always has to be careful when modifying a design. Unintended consequences frequently occur. EG: moving the support beams out closer to the walls will require recalculation of the floor joist sizing.

Using the IRC as a design tool or reference will help avoid pitfalls in making changes as well as in making ones own design.


OJH mentioned cantilevers... Using the IRC we can see that cantilever floor joists are fine when the cantilever is held to the depth pf the floor joist.

The IRC (IRC 2012 TABLE R602.3(5) SIZE, HEIGHT AND SPACING OF WOOD STUDS) shows us that 10 foot high walls are okay when ceiling joists or rafter ties are placed on and connected to the wall tops. This does not give any more room in the attic space, but it does result in a strong structure.


I am a big advocate of spending more time, effort and money on the foundation the first time. Done right it will be the only time.


So, small cabin dreamer, there is no simple answer to your question without knowing the extent of all the changes.

[small cabin dreamer]

I understand, but thank-you very much. We have finally bought property in the UP of Michigan and am just starting the process of finding out what permits are required for electrical, septic, etc. I have looked at this site for a long time and love all the input. I am waiting to find out if there are square footage minimums i need to follow, and then I will have more questions.
Oh maybe one more thing, is it required to have laminated headers above windows and doors, or are just two pieces of wood and sheeting between them nailed together (what used to be accepted) still alright?

[John Raabe]

Double or single headers (deeper but more room for insulation) are standard under normal loading conditions.

[small cabin dreamer]

i'm sorry but what is the difference between a single header and a double header.
I thought a header was two 2x 10's or 2x12's with a piece of 1/2 inch osb or plywood sandwiched in between above any door or window with a jack stud on either side. Is what I described a single or double header, and please describe the one I did not use as an example.

[MountainDon]

A header is just something across the top of a window or door opening. It's ends are supported by one or more studs at each end. A header could be two 2 x somethings with plywood, osb or rigid insulation between them. A header could also be a 4 x something, or one 2 x something that would be deeper in section than a doybled 2 x something. All of the above would be sized to carry the expected loads. The advantage to a deeper section single 2 x something is the ability to put more insulation in the header space.

The above describes a 2 x 4 based wall; 2 x 6 walls have space for more insulation anyhow....