Even though my house "looks" far along, I am busily trying to get things ready for my shearwall inspection. I emailed my inspector and asked what are common mistakes folks like me make at this stage. Here is his list:
1. all nailing complete
2. all hardware installed and completed
3. sheathing nailed to mudsill
4. complete sheathing
5. all required blocking installed and nailed
6. sunken nail heads by overdriving or material swelling renailed to specs
This was helpful, but the worrisome one for me was #3. In some spots where things didn't quite line up, I nailed the sheathing to the studs and the bottom plate but not the mudsill. What should I do in this case?
A. ask him?
B. put straps on the mudsill and then onto the sheathing? If this, every 6"? 12"
C. Remove a section of sheathing and cut new pieces of sheathing and install it over the mudsill, recognizing that I may have trim off some pieces of the mudsill to get it flush
Thoughts?
Also, how far up a wall do doubled up studs need to go where they are attached to the holddowns? All the way to the top? Do I simply make a doubled up continuous (and fairly straight) path from the mudsill and its particular holddown up the wall, to the straps between two floors and then again up again to the top plate?
Thanks,
mt
Quote from: MikeT on March 17, 2008, 03:04:17 PM
This was helpful, but the worrisome one for me was #3. In some spots where things didn't quite line up, I nailed the sheathing to the studs and the bottom plate but not the mudsill. What should I do in this case?
A. ask him?
B. put straps on the mudsill and then onto the sheathing? If this, every 6"? 12"
C. Remove a section of sheathing and cut new pieces of sheathing and install it over the mudsill, recognizing that I may have trim off some pieces of the mudsill to get it flush
Thoughts?
Also, how far up a wall do doubled up studs need to go where they are attached to the holddowns? All the way to the top? Do I simply make a doubled up continuous (and fairly straight) path from the mudsill and its particular holddown up the wall, to the straps between two floors and then again up again to the top plate?
If he's email capable I'd suggest asking if you could use these ,LTP5 or 4's ,
http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/162c-2008.gif
He may go for that they generally are spec'ed at 4' OC.
On the pad outs for bigger straps , we generally get by with the block being large enought to allow nailing from the strap to hit it plus maybe a 8" to a foot.
Your place is so tall and on that steep hill side and IF you have straps between floors are well , I'd suggest just adding full lenght studs. It really might depend on the Engineering and or IF you had a bunch of scrap you could fill in with. Are these plases you missed the strap with layout? If so I'd say error on the full lenght fix side , I generally lay out studs where ever we have straps , generally a pair as that's what most straps take. If you have imbedded bolts with slide on hold downs that are just a little to far away , add 1x4's or 2 bys and longer lags or thru bolts , those would only need to be a litle longer than the hold down , or generally that is excepted up here.
Thanks, PEG. I will email him and see what he says. When I get an answer, I will post it here as well.
On the holddowns, I generally have opted for full length studs, but in some spots the holddowns would be best if they could go on a trimmer stud on the inside of a window and then nailed to the king stud. Then on the connecting floors above, the strap would connect with a cripple stud above the header and the continuation of the king stud, then the floor, then either another trimmer and king stud or a post.
I appreciate knowing the pad out option for the straps.
mt
The trimmer stud thing is fine at least here , the triimers attached to the header and the king stud and as long as you nail it according to spec he'll be happy with it.
On ething to make sure of is IF your sill plate is PT material the sheathing nails need to be Galv. either hand drives or "special" gun nails rated for ACQ , they do make them. They are spendy so we use those ONLY where we have to , that sheathing to PT plate line is one of those places.
Hand drives may be a better option for you. Our guys up here look at that pretty closely.
I have been using galvanized nails. My wife bought a big box of coated common nails and was so pleased how comparatively easily they went in. I told her they would only work on interior nailing and on nothing with PT, she was so crestfallen. In other words, they could be used are hardly anything. After a winter with the rains and the damp air, the rust is really showing on those nails.
mt
Mike let me respond to a couple of your concerns. I don't know what your design is so I'll just give you some general info. Normally the intent of hold downs and shear panels are to act as a unit during seismic events or high wind conditions. Each hold down is usually used in series or pairs such as each end of a wall or at the end of the wall and at a window opening. Generally a panel or wall section width needs to be over 24" wide to be effective. Most hold down attachment requirements can be looked up in a Simpson catalog or whatever type of manf. you're using. The larger the holdown the larger the framing member it attaches to. The posts or studs should be full length form sill plate to top plate, and bolted or SDS screwed as required by Manf. You should have a shear nailing schedule that indicates the different patterns required. Normally as a minimum a 6/12 pattern is used meaning 6" athe perimeter and 12" in the field. But shear wall panels with hold downs generally require tighter nailing. The proper way to have sheared the building would have been from the mudsill to top plate of the wall. Depending on the wall height that may not be possible so normally it is required to stop at the middle of the second floor joist or a block line. If you have sheared from the sole framing plate up then you have a few options.
Garrett here's alink to Mike's place,
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4186.0
He has a some engineering in use with a one of John's country plans , plan.
He'll have some issues to deal with with the inspector I'm sure , but the basics are in place. c*
Your post would have been nice before the whole project was started , but as you can see he's way beyond where "how to design a shear wall" advice is useful.
That all being said his place will last many years as is , many houses stand without engineering. If you missed Glenn's post about mining and the old mine he posted that's about 100 years old down in Ca. that has with stood many earthquakes you may agree. Then again you may not , we had a building official that Glenn banned due to his "insistence" that every nail must be banged within the precision of a "gnat's arse." He was just that , a PIT-Gnat's-A d*
Here's Glenn's find ,
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1000923-1.jpg)
Link to a few more photo's of the same place,
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3135.0
No shearwalls , no PROFESSIONAL engineering , but she still standing, luck? Good wood ? Idaknow call it what you will , but all this anal engineering we build into housing these days , IMO , is mostly a waste of home owners dollars. Hundreds of thousands of homes stand without such engineering , some do fall down , as do some with engineering IF they happen to be in "the wrong place, at the wrong time". Nature is a powerful force , we are but flea's on her back. YMMV
w* to the forum.
Quote from: PEG688 on March 22, 2008, 01:51:50 PM
we had a building official that Glenn banned due to his "insistence" that every nail must be banged within the precision of a "gnat's arse."
Such fond memories we have of M---------2.... ;D ;D
Peg, I agree with you. Engineering is off the map these days. Being in Tahoe I see homes that were built in the 20's and 30's all the time doing just fine. Unfotunately with all the lobbying by companies like Simpson they have got the Engineers and Building officals convinced they need their products. Oregan is a different than here by far, allthough you're always under the discretion of the inspector in the field. A good sense inspector is hard to come by, most are by the book. What is shown on the plan usually prevails.
My advice was given only to supplement what was on his plans and possibly not indicated. Only trying to educate the reasoning behind the design to provide a clearer picture of the theory.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2008, 02:06:21 PM
Such fond memories we have of M---------2.... ;D ;D
Was he , or where you around back then Mtn D?
IMO your inputs here have been a much greater value to the DIY builder. He may have a place some where , but here wasn't it. Glenn does a great job as do you in moderating this place. John's really found / luck into :-\ a good team with his "hands off " approach of the place.
Quote from: PEG688 on March 22, 2008, 02:27:54 PM
...were you around back then Mtn D?
He was canned before my time. :D BUT, I recall reading through the old posts and wondering about him. ::) I figured if he really was an inspector here must be several contracts out on HIM, if ya' know what I mean.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2008, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on March 22, 2008, 02:27:54 PM
...were you around back then Mtn D?
He was canned before my time. :D BUT, I recall reading through the old posts and wondering about him. ::) I figured if he really was an inspector here must be several contracts out on HIM, if ya' know what I mean.
Glenn had a few PM's and emails with him before deciding he had to go. Glenn can be a , ah , ah , nice guy ;) if ya get my drift , he about ran me off before "I saw the light" :-[ ;D
But yanno Glenn was right in both cases. :)
Garrett, great info, Thanks.
I'm not against engineers or inspectors being on here offering advice in an nice helpful way. We have several engineers here and they are a great help and great people and members.
I tried to reason with M-------- and ask him to be nice and treat members with courtesy and respect and to feel free to share his knowledge under those terms.
Unfortunately he wasn't having any of the "treat other members nice and with respect" part of the deal. It was so distasteful to him to have to respect other members, that he banned himself and went back to tell god of how mean we were to him. I simply make it unpleasant for the meanies and they leave of their own accord.
Professionals of all sorts are welcome here as long as they are willing to be nice helpful people to our members who are learning to beat their own little part of the system.
Thanks to all of you who make this place the great forum it is. We will accept nothing less.
Thanks to all the pros here especially -- too many to name names but if you are one, I'm talking to you. :)
PEG, ya rascal. You weren't like M--------.
Yeah -- you started out like a little meanie, but I saw through that and just made you realize that you weren't.
You just wanted to help people learn and we thank you -- all of us. :)
Now -- if you could just see through this facade of mine... ::)
PS Nice picture, PEG..I love that place.
Ya where off the subject but what's that hopper looking thing in that photo ? A way to guide the slag down to a crusher ? I wounder what that wood is? Maybe what they had on site / More than the" right" wood for the job :-\
It is a interesting structure. :)
Ah -- what the heck -- let's hijack it -- main questions answered and they can hijack it back. Ore car tracks or trucks came in behind at the top of that hopper. The rock was generally sorted to probably about 4 to 6 inches or less. It dumped into that jaw crusher at the bottom of the hopper.
The jaw crusher took it down to around an inch or less as I recall when I looked at it.
It went from there down into the final crusher of a style which I haven't seen before but it went around fair ly fast and centrifugal force caused the ore to get rolled between vertical wheels and the side making it into a powder slurry which then overflowed and ran out the sides of the mill into troughs wich took it across an amalgamation or shaker table to get the gold out of the powder. The rest of the powder went out to a sand tailing pile.
Stuff like I'm trying to get going now. :)
The wood all pretty much appeared to be local cut pine and cedar, with even a few logs in there in places.
My miner friend said he and family worked that mill for a bit and did most of the repairs.
The crushed local or and brought it in from other places also.
The guy with the claim now seems to be letting it deteriorate. I doubt he really has a legal claim as he hasn't done any improvements in years as required by BLM.
Hi guys, Not sure where you're all coming from. Just tyring to be helpful. I'm not and Engineer, Inspector, Architect or other offical. Just a builder like most of you. Been around a long time, seen a lot of changes in the industry. Not trying to sound like a know-it-all, not trying to cause waves, just posting what my experience has taught me. I'm only trying to answer questions at a professional level, and make it easy for your members to understand. Opinions are only that, opinions. With enough of them hopefully an educated person can make their own descions, by judgeing the merit of the imput they recieve and how it pertains to them.
That's what we like -- continue on please.
We just were referring to an inspector who jumped in and really got nasty rather than nice. Reminiscing. :)
The way you are doing it -- respectfully and helpfully, is they way we do it. Thanks for your assistance and if I didn't say it before, Welcome to the forum.
PEG's Family and Sassy and I got together in Tahoe last year as he had a wedding to go to there.
Thanks for taking time to share knowledge and information. :)
Thanks for the great comments, folks. I emailed by inspector and asked him what the appropriate remedy is for my situation with respect to the mudsill-to-sheathing nailing. He deferred me to my structural engineer. He considers my plans engineered (I guess if a some of the components are engineered, the rest must fall into that category in his mind). Anyway, I will find out later today what my engineer says and get back with his answer.
I also asked him if it would be helpful to have my engineer come in an do a walkthrough and write a letter prior to his formal shearwall/nailing inspection, and he said it would. I do not know if he is being efficient, but I think I like this approach.
I really appreciate all the feedback.
mt
I think as long as your engineer will take the liability he will be able to just glance over it and be happy. Good approach.
Quote from: MikeT on March 23, 2008, 08:16:58 AM
#1: Anyway, I will find out later today what my engineer says and get back with his answer.
#2: I also asked him if it would be helpful to have my engineer come in an do a walkthrough and write a letter prior to his formal shearwall/nailing inspection, and he said it would. I do not know if he is being efficient, but I think I like this approach.
#3: I really appreciate all the feedback.
mt
#1: You have access to a Engineer on EASTER SUNDAY [shocked] You must be a millionare or this Engineer is family ???
#2: Sure if your Engineer will sign off on it almost all inspector's will except that, maybe Glenn's buddy wouldn't , but he was , ah , different eh d*
#3: I think we like giving feedback / opinions , I think that's good , we ALL can't be lurkers , can we ???
Report back eh Mike :)
Mike:
In looking at one of my recent engineering workups on a larger custom project, I see the engineer has a schedule with three different types of shear walls. Two of them have 3" sill plates (or double 2x w/ 2-16d nails @6" o/c). This to provide more and better anchorage for 10d nails through the 15/32" OSB. For a single sill plate the nailing is at 6" o/c at the edges and 12" in the field. For the heavier 3" sill plates the staggered nailing can get as close to 2" o/c. Anchor bolts through the sills are secured w/ 2"x2" square washers into the concrete foundation.
In other words, the nailing of the OSB or plywood sheathing to the anchored sill plate is a very important part of the diaphragm action of the shear wall as this is where the structure above transfers the forces into the foundation. That said it is likely that "T" straps and other metal anchors can provide much of the missing connection strength if the panels were not properly installed.
Note that the above was designed for a heavy earthquake area. Your design loads will be different.
John you're exactly right. Just what I was saying earlier. Mysteriously though the recommendations or options were cut off?
Well, I didn't get the answer when I wanted it, but I got a better answer than I thought I would. My structural engineer said that since I used a bottom plate that is nailed onto the mudsill, I simply need to increase the nailing from the bottom plate to the mudsill--perhaps with either more and/or stronger nails. He will draw me a picture and stamp it and give me a letter. He said it was an easy fix.
mt
Great Mike. A realistic inspector! What luck.
Ringshank or screw nails hold about 9 times more in pull out resistance than straight nails, per Ken Kern.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 25, 2008, 11:05:11 PM
Ringshank or screw nails hold about 9 times more in pull out resistance than straight nails, per Ken Kern.
Humm I bet no Engineer / engineering takes that into account. They just say "X" penny nail , "X" inches OC , nail all edges, as per sheet "umpty squak", etc .
I've never noticed any spec for ring shank or screw nails in a shear wall spec. , not saying Ken isn't right and or that some engineer haven't ever spec'ed them , But it would be rare from what I've seen.
Try taking something that was built using ring shanks or spiral nails apart. ;D
Probably no spec, but I'm sure he's right. I have shot Senco 10d galv rig shanks into my old bridge timbers to hold on guard rails and decided to change them. All the ringshanks stayed in the bridge timbers and pulled through the 2x4 as I removed it.
Ken thought that if you were going to the effort of putting a nail into something you may as well use one that will hold. Smooth nails would have been easy to remove. So - I usually always use ring shank or screw nails -- never know what I may want to shoot next.
Quote from: MountainDon on March 26, 2008, 12:32:08 AM
Try taking something that was built using ring shanks or spiral nails apart. ;D
You got that right. Makes good fire wood after you finish.
Gun nails , most , don't hold that well , even the ring shanks . I sure due to the rings not being as large or deep as a hand drive. Something about the gun and how it feeds the nails, or would not feed if the rings where deeper / bigger I think.
Hand driven hot dip galvies are about the best/worst.
and with that opinion, g'nite :D
Quote from: MountainDon on March 26, 2008, 12:48:32 AM
Hand driven hot dip galvies are about the best/worst.
and with that opinion, g'nite :D
Back at ya ;) g'nite.
I think (perhaps ;)) that while ring shank nails, gluing and other techniques of increasing the withdrawal resistance of a panel to framing connection do WORK, they do so at the cost of a "graceful failure". That is, they tend to be very strong up to a point and then fail all at once. Engineers like the softer landing of good old wire and wood fiber construction as it gives a warning when it is starting to get meaningful stresses.
Creak.....Crack......Crash.
All good suggestions although I think John is right. I've yet to see an Engineer ever spec a ring shank, twist, or hd nail in this application. Generally they spec 16d commons and most people always use 16d gun nails or sinkers without reprocussions later. It has been my experience that if you match the nailing pattern of the perimeter edge nailing, and nail the plates together with that spacing it passes. Another words if your edge nailing is 4" o.c. then you stagger your nailing of your sole plate to your mudsill at 4" o.c. This helps to transfer the shear panel to the mudsill. Ultimately the engineer will have the last say in the matter and hopefully the building inspector will concur. I think the best fastener for uplift would be a 3" SDS screw vs any nail but they are pricey and probably not necessary.
Quote from: John Raabe on March 26, 2008, 10:46:40 AM
I think (perhaps ;)) that while ring shank nails, gluing and other techniques of increasing the withdrawal resistance of a panel to framing connection do WORK, they do so at the cost of a "graceful failure". That is, they tend to be very strong up to a point and then fail all at once. Engineers like the softer landing of good old wire and wood fiber construction as it gives a warning when it is starting to get meaningful stresses.
Creak.....Crack......Crash.
Like that bridge in Minnesota , and all these cranes that have "gracefully " fall in recently :o
I'm not sure I totally agree with that assessment , wood , generally , does fail more gently than steel . IMO they , Engineer's, just know that can't be policed as well , exact type of nail as well as size , which (size) is easier to check , whether glue is applied evenly , weather conditions where "right" IE: dry / not to cold freezing etc , for proper adhesion etc all are factors not controllable / check able etc .
There are other factors to hard to control or verify in the field.
I also think thats why Simpson straps and hardware are popular , you can control that , you can't control the "ifs " of poor workmanship.
Thats all I've got to say about that. Well maybe ;)
One more note on engineering. I am building the universal 2 story in California earthquake territory and I got my plans through plancheck with NO ENGINEERS STAMP. There is prescribed engineering which is simple to design and follow. I have no simpsons ties in my plans. The plan check technition said he never saw a 2 story designed without an engineers stamp, but when he went back to his books he found out that you can build a 2 story single family residence in CA with prescribed engineering. The prescribed engineering is basically just a full 4x8 sheet of plywood nailed 6 and 12 starting no farther than 8' from each end of each wall line and every 24' on center. In other words, if you are solid sheathing your house and pick your door and window placement carefully , it is already engineered. There is a little more to know about interior partitions, but basically drywall on both sides of an interior wall line takes care of that. There is also prescribed routes for energy calcs also.
Good info, cedarglen. Thanks.
That's in part true cedar , the prescriptive path can be followed.
You will end up with some Simpson ties or similar brand at some point . Joist hangers , H1/ H2.5 to tie the rafters or trusses down with come to mind.
But yes it can be done without engineerering .
Actually you don't need the H1's or joist hangers as long as you follow the nailing schedule. (although I did use H1's because they are just a good idea, and they made it easier for me to set my 2x10 rafters working alone).
Not where I live and work , there is no nailing schedule that would work high wind zone along with seismic zone D , the H1/ H2.5 are standard.
IF code is enforced. Lots of places built without them years ago , most are still standing / useable.
Quote from: PEG688 on April 06, 2008, 12:14:11 PM
Not where I live and work , there is no nailing schedule that would work high wind zone along with seismic zone D , the H1/ H2.5 are standard.
IF code is enforced. Lots of places built without them years ago , most are still standing / useable.
They have saved open front buildings on my place when we had 80 MPH straite winds once. Those winds would have lifted up the roofs real easy with out them. I double them up compaired to code cause there cheap. I am putting them on the cabins roof also but there not required. Sure makes it easy to line up rafters and give you a bracket to hold them with one short nail for a while. Mark
Even though the thought of lining Mr. Simpsons pocket with my cash irks me, those H1's are handy and cheap and could make a difference some windy day down the road. OMMV
(https://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/PaulBach/Smilies/homer_duh.gif)