mental problems...please help!!!!

[Jens]

I have a tug of war in my mind almost everyday.  We own a house in town, on a double lot, that lets us do most of what we want to do.  We can't have as big a garden, and as much livestock (only chickens, maybe a goat, and even that is illegal), but we are in town, which is a huge convenience for many different reasons.

For ten years we have dreamed of, and tried to get a homestead going, though.  There are properties that could be afforded in the area, but certain things would have to be taken care of first. 

We own a big craftsman house,  and I am working a deal to remodel and sell it to some friends.  We will make quite a bit of money doing this, and the wife has a job now that takes care of our minimum bills.  With the profit, we can pay our house off (which is good, since the baloon is due Feb 2010), and possibly do a few more improvements, or add on to it.  In order to buy property, and build a house, we will pretty much have to sell this house too, which is something the wife doesn't want to do.  She just has a feeling that we should keep this house, and rent it out, and that way we could move back into town if we want to. 

I have thought about just taking out a mortgage on the house, once it is paid off, and buying land with the money, but I don't want a mortgage.  Saving up to buy land could be done, but that would take quite a long time, and property values may be back up by then.  But we wouldn't want to sell this house until the market is a bit more stable, either.

Once we sell the big house to our friends, my mothers equity line will be paid back that $30k, and that may be available to buy land with.  But then we would just have to figure out how to pay that back.  I hate money.  With a passion.  For ten years we have been trying to get to the point where we can work to live, not live to work, and we are almost there.  Do we really want to start all over on that?  But working to live would be so much easier on acreage, where we could raise our own beef, have a dairy cow, sell product from both, and chickens, pigs, and goats.  Enough land that I could put a nice big shop together.  Maybe I could finally do what I've wanted for years, and build hot rods, and furniture from there, and have that as the family business.  We could take people in if needed.  We would have more latitude in these ventures on land (although it is possible, just harder here).  Plus, we would finally be on "our" land.  We wouldn't have to pay for water if it is from a well (though the electric to pump aint free), no sewer bills, possibility of wind or hydro with right land.  In town, if we got rid of the internet, and mortgage payment, that would lower our COL to about $1000 a month.  If we grew our own food, even less, down to $400 or $500 maybe.  But if we didn't have water and sewer bills, that would drop another $100.  Using wood from our land, to heat with, and cook in the winter (summer too if done outside), could erase the gas bill of $170 a month.  I know that there would be many costs in the country that we do not foresee, but it would be that way in the city too.

Then we could focus on the things that are truly important to us, our family, friends, helping those in need.  I dream of being able to use 30% of our pay for COL, saving and investing 30%, and giving 30%.  Either way (country or city) that could end up a reality, but our hearts are so set on land.  In the city though, we are closer at hand to make a difference in many peoples lives through the assistance we can give, love we can share, jobs we can manufacture, etc.

Like I have said, we haven't gotten there yet, and the fire has never died.  consequently, that makes it so that I have a hard time focusing on the project at hand.  I have my eyes too much on the prize.  I guess I just need to pray more, to be able to pay attention to today, and let tomorrow worry for itself.  Problem is, when I do that, I don't want to work on this house at all, just relax, and watch a movie with the family, curl up with a good book, take a nap, or drink tea and talk.  When the wife and I talk, it usually comes back around to homesteading!  It's a vicious cycle!

IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!!!

Whatever your thoughts are, I appreciate them.  However long it takes you to write them is fine with me.  As you all can testify, I have a hard time writing until my point is all down (okay, okay, sometimes it takes quite a few different long posts ), and I love reading what you all have to say, whether or not I agree.

[ScottA]

10 years ago I lived in a 4000 sq ft house in a very nice (so called) area. I'll soon be moving into a 400 sq. ft. house. It's been a wild ride but it's all been for the better. The first thing I figured out was that stuff was smothering me. All that stuff needs to be taken care of, repaired etc. It never ended. About the same time I stopped eating out, stopped going to the movies, pro hockey games, pro baseball games. Now I watch high school sports for fun. It's cheaper and more fun anyways. I don't miss any of the stuff and the stress is all but gone. I'm still not sure how I pulled it off but I just walked away and everything else just fell into place as if by magic.

Good luck finding what works for you. 

[JRR]

I agree about "stuff".  And "stuff" would, for me, include farm animals.  Gardening OK.  But being tied down to animal husbandry, would be a quick, and often, pain.  Land maintenance, grass cutting, fence mending, fruit tree pruning ... all those things I have learned have a romantic sound: but a very workaday reality.  No large country place for me.  (A small house on small acreage, OK.)  Cuts down on the freedom to wander.  Been there, done that.  No longer even have a dog.  Now I just occasionaly put out a little food so the neighbors' housecats will pay me a visit.  Still got birds, squirrels, chipmonks, mosquitos, ... enough to keep this old man occupied.

Keep the wife happy.  Knoxville is a pretty town.  If you could rent the place but keep a backyard garage apartment so you could come and go freely ....

[muldoon]

Jens,

Yes, we all hate money, and yet we all chase it and fight for it so dearly.  If we just had this or just had that then everything would be OK and we could do such and such.  I'm going to tell you a secret about money, if your chasing it now you always will be.  Forever.  I have had times in my life when I made over 6 figures, and I have had times when I couldn't get a minimum wage job.  My family were with me through both of those and the range in between.  When I was a child I was raised by a single mom, some years we were on welfare, I always wanted to make money - just so I could get a little further ahead.  The truth is the more you make the more you spend.  If your mindset is that if you just had some more money you could be happy then you will never be happy.  Count your blessings today. 

Then we could focus on the things that are truly important to us, our family, friends, helping those in need. 

Go think about what you said here.  And really ask yourself why do you need to wait until you have money to enjoy things that are free today? 

I am not trying to rag on you, and I know that wasn't exactly the intent of what you were saying.  I am guilty of it as well to some extent and I have to stop myself and remind myself from time to time.  If the goal is to stop the rat race, don't accelerate within it.  Planning to take out another mortgage, or extending an equity line of credit gets you in debt, and as long as your in debt you wont be free - even if your surrounded by cows and trees. 

[MountainDon]

Good point on the animals JRR. Hard to take a weekend trip someplace if they are at home needing care.

I/we am torn between having and not having another dog. Maybe some day we will have another, but there are some things about dog ownership I do not miss.  


As for finding the happy middle ground where you have what you need and what you want takes some juggling. If a place in the country where you can have some animals is deemed a need, then I believe the best way to get it is to work more, work harder and save as much money as possible. It also means cutting out whatever other wants can be cut out or minimized.  

Renting out to people can bring in money, but it can also bring in headaches, frustration, tears and losses. If you get a lousy irresponsible tenant, and you will at some point unless you vet them very well, you quickly find that the law usually favors the tenant, not the landlord. It's difficult to evict tenants even if they have not paid the rent. At least it is a tiresome lengthy process here in NM. During the time you are jumping through the legal hoops, the tenant gets to remain in the house/apartment and can continue to trash the place. Sure the court might give you a judgment but when was the last time a turnip dripped blood when squeezed. Sorry if that sounds quite negative, but renting property to tenants is not necessarily a stroll in the park on a sunny day. Been there done that and now we are very selective and will not rent to certain categories of people.

[Jens]

I totally agree on the renting issue.  If we were to rent, we would probably just open the place up to someone in our church community, that we already know quite well, not charge much rent, and just make sure that the place is taken care of by somebody who cares about more than just his or her well being.  We wouldn't want to have to pay for them to live here, but I don't want to have a business of it, really.

All of the people out there that give the seminars on reigning in your finances and stuff, they all make me chuckle.  I look at our lives, and what we could actually shave off of our fiscal lives is so small its funny.  We have never really been money chasers.  There are definitely times when we want money for things, but it is usually about paying bills, paying off debts, getting on a homestead, or giving more.  We rarely desire the things money can buy, and they are usually tools.  We have no things of real value, other than a few pieces of furniture that are special to us in one way or another, but even if we sold them, we would only get a few hundred bucks, and would then have to figure out where to sit, or keep our clothes!

A few years ago, we sold our home in Oregon, with the intention of moving to Argentina.  To prepare for this, we sold 90% of our possessions.  Now, when we get ready to move, we get rid of a lot of stuff!  Most of it is just crap anyway. 

As far as enjoying the things that are important to us, we already do, quite often.  And it is not money that would make any of that easier, in fact, it would distance us from those things even more.  That is why we are trying to move away from money, and the need for it, not toward it. 

We seldom eat out (with 4 kids its way too expensive), use the library and internet for movies and books, live in a 900 square foot house, and almost never go on any type of trip.  Through being poor for so long, we have found so many cheap and free ways to entertain ourselves.  About the only thing I can think of that we could realistically eliminate, would be the local/organic food diet.  The hard part about that though, is that at most it would save maybe $200 a month, and our diet and peace of mind would suffer for it.  Our food budget BTW, for 6, is roughly $600 a month, which is on par with other people I talk to who don't eat as well...that includes eating out.

The animals do complicate things.  My mom has animals, and can seldom go anywhere.  The fix I can see for this, is to have somebody that lives on the property to help out with these chores, and to take care of the property when we go out of town.  This has worked very well for many people we know.  BTW, we're not talking about 20 horses, or 50 head of anything!  A few beef cattle, pastured, a dairy cow and calf, a few sheep and or goats, maybe a horse or two.  I am the only one super comfortable with horses, and I would get one that can be used as a light draft animal, as well as for riding.

I was thinking while I was making lunch, I may just get a wood cookstove here in this house.  In the summertime, get some help to haul it outside, or just have an outdoor kitchen too.  With that in the kitchen, and another one or two woodstoves for heat in other common rooms, we may be able to not use any gas at all.  Yes...definitely going to do this.  Friends of ours have 500 acres, where we could get plenty of firewood.

I want to build in a solar water heater.  I would love to get PV set up.  All of that takes money though, as do the woodstoves.  Plus I need a chainsaw still, and gas to get out there.  I definitely know it aint cheap, or free, but maybe I can continue trying to hack the system.  I have done pretty well so far. 

Even diamonds start out as cheap coal.
Thanks for your input guys.  I thought it might help to give a bit more of our current info there.

[MountainDon]

There's chasing money for good reasons and not so good reasons.

A good reason would be to work hard, work more and save money for the dream piece of land, the animals, etc.  Land doesn't usually appear on the doorstep by magic last time I checked.  I see nothing wrong with chasing that sort of a dream; much different than working hard at something one does not enjoy, simply to own a new car, 4000 sq ft home, plasma tv, etc.

[CREATIVE1]

I think you could use some encouragement regarding the "voluntary simplicity" movement.  You can google it, but here's a gateway site.

http://www.simpleliving.net/main/

If your friends or relatives are politely (or maybe not!) questioning your sanity, you can throw some of this material back at them.  

Oh, and if you really want something that bad, do it.  Life is short.

[Mike 870]

Hi Jens,

I just want to say you're not alone in how you feel.  I can really relate.  You should set a goal and a timetable and work towards it.  Don't forget to enjoy the journey on the way.

[ToddSInGA]

For a while when I was in my early 20's I lived a very simple life, sharing a one bedroom apartment and having very little as far as personal possessions-I didn't even have a tv! My life was pretty good actually, I was forced to find stuff to do to entertain myself (I read quite a bit and played guitar for hours a day). My job was part time and paid $4.00 a hour, which where I lived was considered a good wage. Everything I needed was nearby, including a discount grocer and a strip mall that was within walking distance, eliminating my need for a car. I spend less on coffee per month than many of my peers spend in a DAY!!!!

Today I have a job that's placed me in a low income bracket (although once I finish up my OTJ training within a year my income will almost double!) and it's a struggle, but I know many of my classmates have incomes in the high five figures and it's the same thing, only with more burdens. Within a few miles of me is a deep discount grocer, the cheapest gas station in the area (a tank of gas lasts me almost a month), and a farmer's market that has just about any kind of vegetable you could ask for CHEAP!!!. My food costs me around $100 a month (including beer-yes I like to have a drink or two a day) and I cook every meal, something that doesn't bother me at all...I've even lost weight due to eating a less expensive healthier diet and exercising. I have cable internet and just the basic service to allow me to not be affected by the digital transition in a few weeks, and while I miss some of the channels there quite a bit of stuff available online to fill that gap. I use a GoPhone with just the basic features and that suits me fine, while I know many people who pay three times what I do to have every bell and whistle...hey it's thier money, but sometimes I have to wonder?

On my income having a $400 dollar a month or so mortgage would allow me to save money (I could always pay more if I wanted to) and allow me to get out of debt faster. There  are also tax incentives to consider as well. I'd love to live a bit away from things, although right now there's no way I could come up with enough money for a down payment of even 3%, although being considered low income is actually a good thing when in comes to FHA, HUD, and USDA loans from what I understand. Personall I'd love to build something simple, although I'd prefer a GREEN steel shell/roof building for a variety of reasons (fire safety and and maintainence). A wooded lot would suit me well (lawns just make no sense to me!!!) and having minimal impact is of upmost importance. Partial solar power would be great, and Georgia has some programs to promote that as well.

I'm gradually reducing the clutter in my life and finding as I go along that less is really more in the long run. I recently donated an entire carload of items I didn't need or use, and suddenly my place seems bigger and neater, not to mention how my closets are so much more organized now!

Judging by the current economy there will be many more people out there like me!

[Jens]

I think you could use some encouragement regarding the "voluntary simplicity" movement.  You can google it, but here's a gateway site.

http://www.simpleliving.net/main/

If your friends or relatives are politely (or maybe not!) questioning your sanity, you can throw some of this material back at them.  

Oh, and if you really want something that bad, do it.  Life is short.

Voluntary simplicity is something that we have been both practiceing and preaching for years.  We thought we were just loons.  Our family has questioned our sanity before, but now just come to an appreciation for the way we live our life.  Many of our friends have actually come around to thinking that we are right.  

I guess the real question that I am asking, will probably get the "go to land" answer, because I am in forum with people that think the way I do.  My sanity problem, comes with not focusing on the present situation enough, but always looking to the next house (which will always be the house on land).  I worry that once we do get there, I will be then looking at something else, but that is something for me to work and pray on.  

The real question, I think, is this.  If you could do the homestead thing (whether or not you even want to I don't know) full scale out in the country, or do it on a smaller scale in town, which would you choose to work toward?  

Like I said, there are pro's and con's to each.  We like our neighborhood, our neighbors, and having friends and conveniences (health food store, regular store, other shopping, church, etc) close by.  We could use less gas being in town.  Employment could be closer (wife has a job at a bakery now).

In the country, its prettier, not crowded, not polluted, things are further away.  We could raise animals, but would we just end up complicating our lives further (note, we want to do these things ourselves for the accomplishment of doing it, and to eat well, not just to save money, and definitely not to work less)?  We are no strangers to work, and do not plan to be...ever.   Just prefer work that is more meaningful to us, which doesn't involve having a job.

I call our thing voluntary poverty, which goes along with voluntary simplicity.  When you need/want to buy things though, poverty sucks!

[Jens]

toddinsga,

thanks for the story.  I like to read about others lifestyles.  Sounds similar to ours, except x6 people.  Our mortgage is already only $350 a month, but we do have a balloon in 13 months to consider.  I need to just figure out how to settle into the current groove.  Not to give up the idea of land, but to let the river take its time to erode the rock.  It'll happen, sometime, but as much as we have already simplified our lives, I know we can go further.  Why not do it while we are in town?

If anyone else has stories they'd like to share, I'm all ears...eyes that is.

Cheers,
Jens   BTW, in case you're wondering, the name is Danish, and it is pronounced "Yens".

[Redoverfarm]

Well "Yens" no body started the way we are.  When I started in the work force I was working 80-100 hrs a week on a salary which figured out to about $3.50 an hour. My wife did not work.   Yes it was hard on a family of four.  We lived in a 10X50 house trailer.  But I would set back a little each month however so small.  Then as my pay increased so did the amount I set back.  Like the old saying is that it takes pennies to make dollars.  I even managed to work a second job even with that already weekly hour burden.  But I did something that I liked so it didn't really seem like work.  I even learned a few trades by doing so.

As Don said it takes hard work and more hard work to be somewhat comfortable.  Yes I still have debt but I live with only as much as I can handle.  I bought a CD years ago for $1.5K.  It has been 20 years now and I just leave it alone.  I got my statement the other day and it is worth nearly 4K now.  I will just leave it and see how far it goes.    Yes there is things that I would like to do but I set back and think are they really necessary and then I come back to earth. 

You are young and it will happen eventually if you really want something.  Don't give up the ship just because it is leaking a little water. Just bail faster and with more energy.

[NM_Shooter]

Mortgage the house?  Ouch.  I would be tempted to try the following.....

Sell the house to your friends and carry the note yourself.  Ask them for a hefty down payment in exchange for a low rate. 

Beware that business decisions may cause you to lose these friends!

-f-

[CREATIVE1]

I agree that small steps in the right direction can have a big effect on your future.  As an accountant who has had some of the same clients for 25 years, I see this proven time after time.  Your accountant knows all!  Some observations:

1.  You can live on cash for about half of what it takes to live on credit.  

2.  If you make a budget, leaving out NOTHING--question every expense--what you value really comes into focus.  The biggest luxury is always time. (see #1)

3.  Barter and swapping is the way to go.  Plus, many of these folks end up as your best friends.  We traded a Volkswagen camper for siding on our house.  That one act has lead to lifelong friendships, and free labor(!!!!) to build our house in Washington.  We've contributed car repair and accounting.

4.  Never be afraid to ask.  This came from a client who was starting a seminar business, and we traded accounting for mentoring.  His belief in what he taught has resulted in a six figure, nationwide business for him, up from absolute poverty level. Wow!

Another interesting point.  As I've gotten older, I keep thinking about what excited me as a child.  I was an award-winning artist, but my parents wouldn't let me go to art school so I stopped painting.  I am now consciously pursuing those things, such as art, that bring me joy.
And, by the way, if you pick up a brush after 40 years, the results are b-a-a-a-d.  Practice and humor will prevail, however.

[Redoverfarm]

.
And, by the way, if you pick up a brush after 40 years, the results are b-a-a-a-d.  Practice and humor will prevail, however.

That would be especially true if I tried to do a self portrait.   .  At one time I was into intricate crafts with small details.  Now the magnifing light gets in my way.  I try to stick with things that are bigger now. 

[Mike 870]

Another interesting point.  As I've gotten older, I keep thinking about what excited me as a child.  I was an award-winning artist, but my parents wouldn't let me go to art school so I stopped painting.  I am now consciously pursuing those things, such as art, that bring me joy.
And, by the way, if you pick up a brush after 40 years, the results are b-a-a-a-d.  Practice and humor will prevail, however.

It's funny that you say that, because after 4 years of undergraduate work, 2 years of grad school and 5 years in the workforce I want nothing more than to change careers to what I enjoyed doing when i was young.

[Squirl]

My question is, what are rents in your area right now?  How much more or less is this than your mortgage?  Than your mortgage after the balloon payment?  If you could sell your house in a year and avoid the balloon payment, it might be worth it even if you pay more in rent.  Many people say renting is worse than owning because you aren't paying into the equity.  It depends is my response.  It depends on how long you intend to live in a place and how much the difference is.  In my area the average mortgage is double the rental price.  (This also should have been and indication of a coming housing collapse)  The first 5-7 years you are paying almost nothing into equity on a mortgage.  In a falling market this could be 15-20 years.  So in a sense, many people are worse off buying than renting.  $350 a month sounds extremely cheap for me, but I live in the northeast of the country.  If renting is less though than the balloon or the mortgage after, rent.  Pocket the difference in cash and put it towards the house.  I don't have your exact figures, or loan sheets in front of me so I can't tell if that is your case.  You can use excel to calculate the amount of equity and interest per payment.  

[Jens]

Our mortgage is about half of what rent would be.  We won't rent.  Have done it too much, always pay too much, and get screwed by jerk landlords.  They always are really nice, until you are half way through your lease, or you give your notice, then they remember that their father is Beelzebub.  In the last two years we rented, we paid out over $35,000!  That is more than our house cost!

It would make no sense to rent anyway, even on a mortgage of our property, pulling out money, paying off balloon, we would still pay less than rent, and have about $50k leftover. 

The only thing I am having a hard time with regarding selling our house or not, is whether or not it makes it worth it to make the move.  That is the struggle.  It isn't learning how to survive without a job, or on less income.  As far as the whole cutting costs thing goes, there is always room to spend less.  In our case, it is just a little less, but still room.  We run on a cash economy, don't even have a checking account.  Money goes farther that way, no confusion. 

Talked about it with my wife tonight.  Basically we are going to "stay the course" here, as far as concentrating on getting this house done.  Once that happens, and the theoretical sale of the big house turns into reality, then we'll figure out where to go from there.  She also would love to be on our land for our tenth wedding anniversary summer 2010.  It is possible, but would be better to have ducks in a row.  That is what we discussed.  At this point though, we will see how we feel about it later on.  At least figuring out that much with her makes it easier to just focus on this here, and let the other take care of itself. 

[harry51]

Jens,

1. Take care of yourself and yours first.

2. Cliche, but, the longest journey does start with one step.

G/L

[Jens]

Harry,

1.  Absolutely, always, without question, thank you for the reminder, I think everyone needs to hear it!

2.  I use cliches all the time too, especially that one.  Here is a new one, the longest journey has several starts and stops before you reach the end.  Not only do you have to take that first step, but you end up having to take the "first" step many times.

Keep smiling, all

[Native_NM]

The American Dream

An American businessman was standing at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long it take you to catch them?" The American asked.

"Only a little while." The Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" The American then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs." The Mexican said.

"But," The American then asked, "What do you do with the rest of your time?"

The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life, senor."

The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats."

"Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own can factory. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise."

The Mexican fisherman asked, "But senor, how long will this all take?"

To which the American replied, "15-20 years."

"But what then, senor?"

The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions."

"Millions, senor? Then what?"

The American said slowly, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos..."

[Beavers]

Great story Native_NM 

Really drives home the point of how ridiculous the whole "American Dream" has become.  More is always better. 

Along the same lines as your post are these lyrics to an Eddie Vedder song.


Oh, it's a mystery to me
We have a greed with which we have agreed
And you think you have to want more than you need
Until you have it all you won't be free

Society, you're a crazy breed
Hope you're not lonely without me...

When you want more than you have
You think you need...

There's those thinking, more-or-less, less is more
But if less is more, how you keeping score?
Means for every point you make, your level drops
Kinda like you're starting from the top
You can't do that...

[Beavers]

The real question, I think, is this.  If you could do the homestead thing (whether or not you even want to I don't know) full scale out in the country, or do it on a smaller scale in town, which would you choose to work toward?  

Like I said, there are pro's and con's to each.  We like our neighborhood, our neighbors, and having friends and conveniences (health food store, regular store, other shopping, church, etc) close by.  We could use less gas being in town.  Employment could be closer (wife has a job at a bakery now).

We are planning a medium scale homestead, we are building in a very small town and have no rules against raising farm animals.  Of course I would love to have 80 acres out in the middle of nowhere, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.  So we are making do with the land we have, it's more than enough room to have a huge garden, raise some chickens, a couple of pigs, and even a cow if we wanted.  We are paying cash as we go on the house construction, so when it's done we will have no rent, no mortgage, and no debt.  When we get to that point I don't think it would take long to save up a pretty good chunk of cash to buy more land down the road, if we decide that's what we want.

Not sure what things are like in your area, but around here land in small towns is extremely cheap.  You can get an acre or two for a couple of grand.  Might be the best of both worlds that you are looking for.  Room enough for the homestead, and still some of the benefits of town.

[rwanders]

Jens, your dream is certainly alluring and I hope it all works out just as you want. Be careful about "growing your own food including animals, etc"-----I don't know your past experience in this area but, it is harder than a lot of people imagine to beat the prices commercial farms produce foodstuffs for. You can occasionally do so but perhaps not in the quantities your family will need----don't forget that processing, preserving and storage of all that is not free and neither is seed, fertilizer, vet bills, tilling equipment and fuel to power them. Not saying a person can't shave some bucks off his COL with a little "farming" but I think the greater benefits would probably come from nice fresh produce and a good boost in your self esteem/self confidence.