1x12 Eastern White pine for flooring

[ScottA]

I'm toying with using 1x12 eastern white pine planks for flooring in our cabin and skipping the plywood altogether just laying the planks across the floor joists. Anyone see a reason this wouldn't work? The joists will be 16" OC. I know I have some goofy ideas but the pine's pretty.

Scott

[PEG688]

#1:  Anyone see a reason this wouldn't work?


#2:  The joists will be 16" OC.

#3:  I know I have some goofy ideas but the pine's pretty.

Scott

#1 Depends on the dryness of the lumber, the quality of the lumber , and the edge detail of the lumber.
 
So you answer those questions and we'll talk further.

#2: Are they "I" joist?   If so the part of the engineering of "I" joist is subject to the assumption that sheet goods will be used on top of them as sub flooring, at least I'd bet your money on that.  :-/

#3: Pine is one of my top top three woods, in fact it was the wood I mentioned , "I'd come back as" ,  [highlight]IF I believed in reincarnation , which I do not ,[/highlight] for my Woodworkers guild interview.


So it's not a goofy idea and many older homes have  White Pine flooring , Fir flooring etc. It is not very "common " any more though. But it have been done in the past , many,  many times.  
 

[ScottA]

I'm not sure on the dryness of the wood but it seems stable I have a sample sitting in the shop for over a month and so far no visable change. As for quality...



Here's a shot of the sample I have. The joists are going to be lumber.

Scott

[PEG688]

   I'd ship lap the pine , if you don't you'll have gaps right thru to the crawl space.

  And if it where mine , I'd still sheath the floor .

  For a few reasons , the gaps being one , the flexing the pine will do when you walk on it , the ship lapping will help  reduce that, but it will not eliminate it.

 It also [highlight]will be a squeaky floor[/highlight] as those boards flex against each other.

The way to avoid that is , sheet the floor, ship lap the boards and lay the well acclamated Pine over a Rosin paper , some times  called Builders paper, or unimpregnated felt paper. The rosin paper is generally a faded red color.

 And it still will squeak some.  

G/L PEG  

[ScottA]

Thanks Peg. I'm not worried about the floor sqeaking as this is a rustic cabin and that's to be expected. I'll let the wood sit for a several months before using it. My buddy has equipment for cutting tongue and groove edges. I'm sure that it can cut shiplap joints too.

Scott

[glenn kangiser]

You are better off with the T&G in my opinion.  While the shiplap will provide a bit of a gap seal, it will not prevent the board on top from warping and lifting.  Face nailing could help a bit with that but T&G with hidden nails will not go up or down so much and properly done will not separate.

Softwoods - pine -  seem to shrink about 3/4 of an inch per foot in width  from wet to dry.  That is a reason the 6" wide boards are better at preventing gaps.  It takes a good year or more  for air dried boards to quit shrinking in my experience.  I have my own sawmill and have used my own wet and dru wood on my cabin.  I recently installed a pine T&G floor from two year dried 1x 6 that finished out at about 5 inches per board.  A friend with a sawmill already had the T&G professionally done and planed so I bought from him.

[PEG688]

T&G will work but I doubt it will stop  or prevent cupping.  

 Ship lap is a much more traditional for a pine floor and I thought easier to make for Scott , but if his buddy has a T&G bit that would / could  work as well .  Although with ship lap you can,  and should,  do about a 3/8" strong,  leaning towards  7 /16"to 1/2"  lap allowing for more shrinkage and wood movement.

 Another reason to sheath and paper the floor would be,  in a cabin / seasonal use building,  how much moisture "could" be present from a open ish under floor and related "cabin"  issues.

As Glenn pointed out shrinkage can be a issue , swelling as well could be player , in a cabin floor.  

[glenn kangiser]

Nice to know that it is traditional, PEG.  I didn't know shiplap was used commonly for floors -- I made plenty of it for my ceiling - and yes- I think it is much easier to make with simple tools.  I used 2 skill saws - one set for the edge and one for the side -- burned up a router trying to do it with it.  Saws were  faster and easier.

[PEG688]

I was thinking table saw with a dado head one pass each edge.   But I think that way cuz I have the tooling to do it that way. Others MMV, humm a new short hand OMMV = Others Milage May Vary  :-/  What ya think , MTL won't catch on      

[glenn kangiser]

I haven't learned all the shorthand used already.  I usually just type out the whole thing.  

Nothing beats having the right tools - I suppose I could set it up and do it that way.  Some of the boards I have are a bit rough to handle and would probably require a better setup than I would do.  Also sometimes my boards are a little wavy.  I guess the proper setup would still handle that. MTL will continue to do so.

[PEG688]

Nice to know that it is traditional, PEG.  I didn't know shiplap was used commonly for floors --

I talking old time flooring ,,  common ,,  way back, colonial times to  pre WW-II, common. My house has ship lapped sub floor, D. Fir I'm sure ,  build 1947- ish just post war, before the first building boom in the 50's.  The 50's was the start of sheet goods being used commonly and boards sort of drew down in use.  

Southern  Yellow Pine is sold as T&G for flooring as  is White Pine , if you look hard enought/ in the right place.

 I'm going from the angle Scott's wood is air dryed not KD , that could be wrong as I asked and he hasn't said ,  except to say" it's stable". Looking at the photo maybe it is KD  :-/ , it has been surfaced planed  , or so it seems.

[glenn kangiser]

Seems our 1952 house had 1x3 T&G over diagonal laid subfloor?  Less seasonal gapping with that but it still moved.

[PEG688]

Seems our 1952 house had 1x3 T&G over diagonal laid subfloor?

 Less seasonal gapping with that but it still moved.

Was this a question? The diagonal part?  

If so I don't believe the diagonal lay was to reduce wood movement , although it would help as the flooring would then be laid , generally , parallel with the long walls , or 90 deg. off the floor joist direction, so it would make any wood  movement lessened due to the diagonal lay of the sub floor as the cross grain (most movement direction of wood )of the flooring would be diagonal to the cross grain of the subfloor.  Jeesh does that make sense :-? :-/

I think they laid it diagonal for wracking strength mostly , walls would be sheathed that way for that reason.  

[glenn kangiser]

Mostly I couldn't remember but it was either that house or the one I helped my uncle remodel that had the diagonal laid subfloor.

Thanks for the added info as to why.  I didn't see a lot of reason for it but have seen it on the old houses.

[Okie_Bob]

I'm jumping in here a little late but, I've been working on the lake house and just got home.
I installed 5" wide, 3/4" thick 'heart pine' prefinised flooring from Lumber Liquidators and the brand on the boxes was Clover Lea.
My sub floor is 1 1/4" t&g plywood, nailed and glued to I-joists 16" on center. I used 15# tar paper on top of the subfloor and then nailed the finised flooring on top of that.
I asked the guy at the Lumber Liq. store (who talked like a real pro and said he was a long time installer) how long I should let the flooring acklimate before I installed it. He told me what with a pier and beam, plywood sub floor I didn't really need to worry about it. Unfortunately, I took him at his word. And as I'm sure you guys have guessed, it has already cupped! BAD. I did let it set inside the house for a couple or weeks and from the time I started laying th floor in the living room, till I finished was about 6 weeks or so and it doesn't seem to matter, it has all cupped. I also left a good 1/2" on each side wall for expansion and a little space on the ends (didn't thing it woud expand long ways.)
So, what did I do wrong? I don't plan to change it out but, it really upsets me to have done everything the way I was told and still have it come out wrong!
Any ideas?
Okie Bob

[PEG688]

More Info Bob , BTW sorry to hear about your cupping .

#1: So is the place heated?

#2:  For how long and is it heated while your not there, or do you crank up the temp when you arrive?

#3: Did you check the moisture content of both the sub floor and the back side of the prefinished stuff, with a moisture meter?

#4: I assume the flooring was only finished on one side ?  

Lets see where this leads us , I will have more questions,  I'm sure  

 

[ScottA]

Glen I recall an old timer telling me years ago that the reason the subfloor was laid on the diagonal was to keep it from splittlng when the nails of the hardwood floor where put in since they all line up in a straight line they'd split a board in two if they where down the length of the board. Laying them diagonal kept the penetrtions from lining up in the boards below.

I just got home from my buddies house and he voted for shiplap if I didn't install plywood since the joints could be made deeper/wider whatever... more overlap. The boards in the photo have framing behind them. I butted them together over a month ago to see how big of gaps would form between them as they dried. So far nada... The guy at my local small town lumber yard bought a large lot of this stuff last spring so it's been sitting in the yard atleast 6 months. No idea when it was cut. The price is $1.45 a foot for 1x12's.

This cabin will be occupied year round and floor will be insulated.

Scott

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Scott.  That does make sense.

[PEG688]

So Scott's Pine is KD.

 What your problem will be, as I understand it , you'll be using your Pine as sub floor / floor combo, so you'll be laying it before you stand your walls  and it will get wet / be in the weather. You'll also be sliding things , like walls  ,2x4's, ladders,  etc over it while you build. You'll be tacking temp . bracing to it via blocks to hold your now stood walls plumb, you'll be dropping things on it and in general beating the $hit out of it , yanno common old building practices

So if you lay it tight and it gets wet,  it will swell , it may buckle , and crush the wood fibers.

  Then after your in the dry it will shrink to beat the band and that will be what your left with to try and sand to make it look good, or at least passable.

So I'd say your setting yourself up for disappointment in the long run. But that's how I see it. YMMV.

G/L PEG    

[ScottA]

Excellent point Peg. Maybe I need to ponder this a bit.

Scott

[PEG688]

Excellent point Peg.

Maybe I need to ponder this a bit.

I see it as point[highlight]"S"[/highlight] !

I would, ponder it a bit that is!  

[Okie_Bob]

Peg, thanks for taking the interest in my problem.
First, the floor was installed in Aug/Sept and here in Tx it's still AC weather, no heat needed or wanted.
So, yes, the AC was turned on from before the wood was brought into the house, all through the installation and beyond. I would usually turn the AC up to 80 when gone during the week and back down to lower 70's when getting back down there for the weekend.
The wood was only prefinished on one side.
I did NOT check the moisture with a moisture meter. Actually, I asked the guy at Lumber Liquidators where I could buy a moisture meter and that is when he told me I didn't need to check it since I was on a pier and beam foundation with a plywood subfloor.
I'm confused about this Peg, if the moisture was too high, why would the wood cup? I would think it would only cup if it was too dry when installed and then gained moisture, causing it to expand and thus cup? Am I looking at this wrong?
Thanks for any input Peg or others for that matter.
Okie Bob

[peg_688]

Bob it's hard to keep track of where all you guys are building without a note in the side line under your log in name , that's the easiest reference point , at least for me . then I don't have to go look at your profile page etc .  

I'm going to guess when you say cupped the outer edges where the T&G profiles are have turned upward toward the ceiling.

[highlight] If so what that tells me is the unfinished down side of your lumber has gained moisture faster than the top (finished ) side.[/highlight]

What the sales guy may have said about laying it on plywood sub-floor and why a post and pier foundation would make "no problem " I , in my opinion think is just a salesmen spiel , line of absolute BS , typical of ALL MOST salespeople I've ever known. It's always easy , no problem , piece of cake , etc with sales people , ALL MOST all of whom never have installed jack shick in their live.

 Now the why of your floor cupping ,

 Is the under floor insulated ?

Do you have any type of ground vapor barrier and was it in place before you installed?

Is the crawl space enclosed?

Sadly all those are pretty much moot points , but things that will need corrected , if they have not been done.

You could try , but I doubt it would work , adding humidity with a machine , but catching that balance point of MC would be a trick .

Have you called the supplier and raised hell yet?

That would be  the first thing to do , see what they say . They will MTL ask the same questions I did , or maybe they'll send you more materials , doubtful.

Sub-floors and the floating floor both need to be tested for MC and both need to be within a couple of % /numbers of EACH OTHER , so laying a floating floor like you layed which may have been very dry say 3 or 4% MC  on a sub floor that was maybe at 10 or 12% the floater draws/ sucks that moisture out trying to "catch up / = out " with the sub-floor , the top side is sealed so it can't swell so the bottom "grows wider" and the board cups upward at the corners .

Sorry I hate giving bad news like this , really it sucks  
G/L with your next step , PEG :'(  



   

[Homegrown_Tomatoes]

Just a FYI for Scott and Okie Bob... there was an article several months ago in The Mother Earth News about installing pine floors instead of hardwood... thought it might be of use, and if you look up their website, I'm sure it is in the archives.  The floors shown in the article were really pretty.  As an aside, I lived in an old house when I was in college, and the carpet was so filthy I couldn't stand it, so I ripped it up one night (my landlord actually took money off my rent for this because it was such a cruddy old place.)  Underneath the carpet in most of the rooms it had scarred up old oak floors, but in the bedroom, it was a beautiful pine floor.  The only problem I had with it is that it is relatively soft, so it scratches and dents really easily.  I dropped a can of soup which hit the pine floor and left a fairly deep semi-circle mark.    Still, even with the dents and scratches, it was sunny and cheerful looking.

[ScottA]

Scratches and dents only add to the charm IMHO.

Peg you ever hear of building a house and putting the floor planks down after the roof is on? Sounds nutty I know but most of the roof work will happen from scafolding anyways. What you think? My cabins not all that big 16x26'.

Scott