Kitchen cabinets and finish trim in general

[Okie_Bob]

Getting to the point I need to start thinking about finish work and don't have a clue where to turn. So, I decided to come to the sourse of all information!!!!
Anyone have a recommendation on a book or books with plans on cabinet building? I'd searched the web
and not found anything that I'm looking for. My experience so far has been buying cabinets from HD and installing them myself. That may be the least expensive way to go or so it's beginning to look. But, I'd really liike to take the time to build something I can really be proud of when it's finished. I don't mind spending on more tools as I'd like to have a nice woodworking shop when the house is finished and I can retire.
I need plans that I can work from that I can expand or contract depending on the size I need. And guess it needs to be 'Building Cabinets for Dummies' or some such title.
Any help?
Okie Bob

[John_M]

Just a guess, but try

www.amazon.com

They seem to have a little bit of everything.

I also like going to

www.rockler.com

[John Raabe]

Bob:

Here's a couple of links to explore.

This from Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/6160204d88ae4070/b164e6f183c0bc46%23b164e6f183c0bc46

An article in Handyman magazine: http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=17750

[Amanda_931]

Ikea has a kitchen planner affair.  You can at least see how cabinets would fit into your kitchen.

http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/complete_kitchen_guide/planner_tool/download/index.html

A few authors (can't remember who at the moment) said they thought that open shelving was better than cabinets anyway.  I like the idea, but not sure that the cats would make the reality very practical.  

I don't particularly want to put washed dishes first in the drainer and then in their final "away" place.  There are shelves, with or without drains below to do just that--currently pretty popular, especially without the drains.  

I have occasionally used the big rolling tool boxes (with or without the wheels attached) and their set on something (a counter, generally) top boxes as kitchen storage.

Bulk food storage for me would probably mean the kind of thing that Lee Valley has.

This very expensive, possibly complicated but compact unit--cabinet not included on any of these (there's also a smaller one--second link):

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=&p=48709&cat=3,43722,43723

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=&p=48714&cat=3,43722,43723

Or this straightforward affair in several sizes:

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=43655&cat=3,43648,43653

In books, I kind of like Terence Conran--but best look at books in a bookstore to make sure you do as well, and there are one or two that I don't think I can lay my hands on my copies right now that I kind of like--not seeing them right not in an Amazon search.  At least one has pretty nice diagrams of decent layouts, how much room it takes to work comfortably, etc.

This might be one, cover looks a little familiar.  There is a new (third) edition available, but you can get used second edition for (as low as) under $7.00 including shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Smart-Approach-Kitchen-Design/dp/158011136X/sr=1-1/qid=1163818183/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-4170165-9831267?ie=UTF8&s=books

[PEG688]

I did this thread a while back ,

 http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1140146374

Might help some . I'll bump it up as well.  

John had it on the home page under links for awhile , guess something better came along to replace it


IMO you'll never beat the price of big box cabinets , by the time you buy good plywood , make doors and draws , buy hardware etc the big boxs guys are going to be cheaper even if you don't add any labor.

There are a few lines of big box cab's that arn't bad , all of the ones that are knocked down, in a box are crap , so look for pre assembled ones they tend to be a bit better a box and hardware.  

 G/L PEG  

[Okie_Bob]

Thanks everyone for the great links, I ordered a couple of books last Friday and hope to have them today.
Peg, I actually did look at HD over the weekend at some of their cabinets and also at plywood prices. I'm sure you are right that I can buy just about as cheap as built myself. But, if I did that, I couldn't justify the new toys I NEED to Momma! She just doesn't appreiate that new DeWalt compound miter saw with the lazer guide I found for only $650!! I just never will understand women.
Plus, how can I honestly say I built the whole thing myself? Got to be some way to justify the extra expense, don't you think?
Okie Bob
PS: Peg I really do appreciate all your post and especially the one on trim tips. Look back and you'll see I complimented you on it back when originally posted!!

[pioneergal]

I'm not wanting to hijack this thread but I have a question that I think might fit into this thread.

My Dh has a few hours down time today is wanting to frame the walls for my kitchen walk-in-pantry but has a few questions.
First,at his own admittance he is a novice at this building thing but is willing to listen and learn from those on this forum whos have years of building experience.

# 1 PROJECT

The pantry is not large .....corner pantry 4x5
When one enters our kitchen the pantry will be in an upper right hand corner with an angled door . Either a bifold or a 24" hinged door....not sure at this time. The bifold would give me more inside space but not sure if it would hold up to everday usage.



#2 PROBLEM

The question he has is about the wall lay out  for the pantry. One short wall will protrude several inches beyond the counter top that will abut the pantry wall. Will this be acceptable or is there a better way to lay out the wall where everything will be flush.

We both feel so dumb asking questions that are probably not too clear. This would probably be a 20 minute job for you guys with years of experience. But we are eager and anxious to learn.

[glenn kangiser]

We have used a pine bifold at our other house for about 10 years.  While it is light it usually works fine with no problem.  Once in a while with an uneven pull, it will pop out of track but goes right back in.

I don't see any reason to worry about the wall being even with the counter top if it doesn't cause any problems with access.  More of a personnal preference issue if I understand you correctly.

[Amanda_931]

If it truly bothered you you could make "the pantry" for bulk storage and rarely used items.  Keep the stuff used every day out where light duty doors wouldn't be a problem.

There are always those really nasty looking vinyl folding doors.  In addition the cats could destroy them more quickly than solid pine bifold.

[jonsey/downunder]

Bob, I would say build your own cabinets, you may not beat them on price but you'll sure get quality that you are happy with. Frameless cabinets are the easiest to build because they are just modular boxes. They get their appeal from the flash doors stuck on the front. You can buy these ready made and build your carcasses to suit. Face frames are a little tricky but with a little care, you should be able to handle them OK.
A more useful saw for cabinet building is a table saw. You want a good quality saw with the best fence you can get. I have a Jet 10" contractor saw and think it good value. I use a small 6" circular saw for ripping the sheets roughly to size and then I run them through the table saw to finish them off.

http://www.amazon.com/Jet-JWTS-10JF-708301K-Table-Fence/dp/B00006WP0Z

I am presently building my own kitchen and will update the web page in a week or two. If you like I'll put in a bit of detail and some extra pic's, just for you Okie_Bob.

[PEG688]

Tablesaw ya say,

 

Cabinets ya say,



Euro style / frameless.

 

120 lbs  ,  full extention 22" slides , 1/2" euro ply draw boxs,

 

 

[jonsey/downunder]

See that, you don't get cabinets like PEG's in a flat pack.

Here are a couple of shots of my vanity unit. Still needing doors but I'll get on to that as time permits. The top is made from some scragg ends of blackbutt I had laying round.
 

[Okie_Bob]

Wow, great hearing from you Jonsey and, of course Peg too!!! Great pics Peg and great looking cabinets. I was actually more excited about the wood floor Peg. Is that cedar? Really looks impressive.
Jonsey, I went to the link you left me and was quite surprised at the cost of the Jet table saw! I figured a table saw would be less expensive than a good miter saw but, obviously not. I would think you would need both, a miter and table saw to build cabinets and do all the other trim work. The 22 1/2 and 45 degree cuts seem would be easier with the mitre?
Jonsey, I have to ask about that cabinet top in your last pic? That is a beautiful piece of wood. You called it a 'scraggy ends of blackbutt' I believe? What kind of tree is that? You folks downunder better watch out for the PC police....you're getting close to the line there Jonsay!!!!

Serious question, I believe I prefer the look of regular cabinets over the Euro cabinets. Are the standard cabinets really that much harder to build than the Euro's?

Okie Bob

[PEG688]

Bob the floor is a simple T&G  knotty pine 1x6 with a clear finish ,4 coats,  on it .


The face frames arn't hard to build , they can be nailed or stapled right to the box as pieces , puddy the resulting holes. Or they the face frames can be mortise and tendon joints , pocket screwed together , bisquited etc onto , and together. If your going to be painting nail the pieces to the cabinet box works just as well as the "more elaborate " jointed face farmes .

 The down side to face frames , there are a few , the draw slides will need to be padded out to flush up with the face frame , there are many cheap plastic ways of doing this , remember the cheap plastic part when the draws don't work right  , you loose space in each cab. due to the face frame , and in general face frames are a pain in the butt.  Theres more but this will give you something to ponder.

 IMO you would want both saws plus some other tools , nail gun, sander , cordless screw gun drill motor etc , if you where to build your own.  Yes it could all be done with hand tools , it once was .    

 Nice blackbutt Jonsey

PEG

[williet]

Bob, I would say build your own cabinets, you may not beat them on price but you'll sure get quality that you are happy with. Frameless cabinets are the easiest to build because they are just modular boxes. They get their appeal from the flash doors stuck on the front. You can buy these ready made and build your carcasses to suit. Face frames are a little tricky but with a little care, you should be able to handle them OK.
A more useful saw for cabinet building is a table saw. You want a good quality saw with the best fence you can get. I have a Jet 10" contractor saw and think it good value. I use a small 6" circular saw for ripping the sheets roughly to size and then I run them through the table saw to finish them off.

http://www.amazon.com/Jet-JWTS-10JF-708301K-Table-Fence/dp/B00006WP0Z

I am presently building my own kitchen and will update the web page in a week or two. If you like I'll put in a bit of detail and some extra pic's, just for you Okie_Bob.

I agree about building your own and I'd like to see the detail pictures of the cabinets you're working on.
It's nice to have all the fancy slides and hinges that come on the modular cabinets though ... One can do it themselves, but it's lots of fittin and planin.

[pioneergal]

If it truly bothered you you could make "the pantry" for bulk storage and rarely used items.  Keep the stuff used every day out where light duty doors wouldn't be a problem.

There are always those really nasty looking vinyl folding doors.  In addition the cats could destroy them more quickly than solid pine bifold.

The DH finished my kitchen pantry and I must say the old boy did a good job!  
The measurments are okay......the wall I was concerned about  turned out be no big deal.
I mocked up a cabinet against the wall and when the trim is put around the pantry door there will be about 3 1/2" wall protruding out from the cabinets.
I'm happy!

[bartholomew]

Good lord, I thought only Britons still used those separate scalding hot and freezing cold faucets!

That top looks great; real nice color variation in the wood.

[glenn kangiser]

Nice work, PEG and Jonesy.  The work you guys do makes my nailgun, sawmill and chainsaw work look like Neanderthal work. :-/  

Glad to hear things worked out Pioneergal.

I'm gonna leave the blackbutt alone, Jonesy.  

[jonsey/downunder]

Bob,
I totally agree with PEG on the face frames, but if you like traditional cabinets there are, as he says, easy ways of doing them. The tools, the same, but if mother will only let you get one saw, my choice would be the table saw. One thing I would say is chuck the miter gauge that comes with it and get one of these

http://www.amazon.com/Incra-MITERV27-Miter-Gauge-Angle/dp/B0007UQ2DW

There was a Grizzly table saw on Amazon that looks like it might be a good buy but I don't know anything about them. One of the other's may be able to tell how good they are. A table saw has the advantage of letting you run a dado blade for cutting slots and rebates. With the good miter gauge you should be able to get precise compound miter's as well.

The Blackbutt should more properly be call Blackwood (Acacia Melanoxylon)
Common Names: Black Wattle, Wattle
The variations in colour can be startling, ranging from deep chocolate browns and reddish browns to olive tans and honey tones. Some boards being almost Zebra like, incorporating all of these. Cecilia used it in her home for bench tops and other things. The stuff I had was some recycled stuff that I had laying round, just a few bits and pieces. It's not stained, just Danish Oil.
 
Blackbutt (eucalyptus patens) comes from Western Australia and is one of the least flammable eucalyptus. It will usually survive moderate forest fires, although the base of the tree becomes blackened, this is where the tree gets its name. I suspect Blackwood is sometimes called Blackbutt for the same reason.  

Bart,
The hand basin is a beauty isn't it? It's an old family heirloom, and first saw service in the 60's. It was probably used at some stage as a bathtub for my little sisters. I rescued it after a bathroom makeover for my Mother about 10 years ago and it's been waiting round in my workshop for this very job. The taps are not quite the originals but close too.

Williet,
Have a look here, You should be able to get their products over there somewhere.
http://www.blum.com.au/australia/en/03/index.jsp;jsessionid=0000igYD7ZKrHKZcnzkMgM54DIn:-1

[Amanda_931]

Lee Valley's hardware catalog has lots of cabinet hardware.  Much easier to find from the print catalog than on-line, even though ordering on-line is fast.

Of course, there may be a cabinet supply company somewhere in your area.  Good idea to patronize them, to avoid either high shipping costs and days waiting for things to come--and you can go get one little piece you've forgotten.

[Sassy]

PEG & Jonsey, very, very nice!  I keep lusting after more cabinet space!    

[glenn kangiser]

Whoa -- just a minute there.  Subliminal messages are not allowed.

[jonsey/downunder]

"lusting after more cabinet space"
Sassy, that sounds like Glenn might have to spend up big on some new tools for you this Christmas.
That table saw would be nice.  

[bartholomew]

Glenn, sounds like your lusty wife is sending you a pretty big hint. You'd better put up a shelf.

[glenn kangiser]

She just got home from working several nights at the hospital --- think I better check out the lusty part first then the shelf second. :-/

Jonesy, I just bought her a set to 18v tools - we better let her check those out first then I'll let her play with the table saw.