a small cabin in mn

[theshack]

Hello all, I have spent lots of time on the forum and learned tons of stuff, so thanks to everyone who has helped out with my project. I have a few questions, and am attaching a few old pictures, as I have no new ones yet. I will post more when I get them from my buddies. I have a few questions though. What do you guys do for off-grid heating?  Keep in mind I'm a full time college student living 3.5 hours away from here now just scraping any material I can for this with an occaisional splurge. I would have to say I have about $2000 into it so far and I have all my overlooks done and subfascia on, but only two pieces of sheeting on the roof, but the rush has begun to have it dried in by winter.I will have a generator that I will be charging batterys for just minimal compact flourescent light, and I plan on maybe getting a small solar panel or two. Im looking for two ideas for heat, one temporary for the winter just to keep it working temperature inside, and one more permanent wood burning option. This is a 14x18 cabin with 8 and a half foot walls, and a 8x12 vaulted ceiling. Still planning the half loft out. And I really dont know how it got so high off the ground, I just wanted it to be easy to insulate at a later time but kinda went over board. You guys have been a lot of help already, so thanks a lot. Oh and is there a link somewhere on posting pictures? Thanks again


Mark L.

[theshack]

Just another picture. Yes I should have run the sheeting the other way I know but hey you learn from your mistakes and I haven't ever built a house before.  

Mark L.

[MountainDon]

Welcome aboard!

Off grid heating? Wood burning stove. Not pellets, but regular wood. Second choice would be propane with a wall mounted, convection, direct to the exterior venting. That works if the propane truck can access your property. Usually you can get a low cost ($1/week) lease on a tank from a propane supplier.

Temporary first winter heat? If you can find an old wood burner used a a very used (low) price, okay. Otherwise I'd rather get the stove I want to end up with and only buy once. If you do find a temporary one make certain it uses the same chimney size as the one you'd like to end up with as permanent. 6 and 8 inch are common and it can be a bad idea to try adapting from one size to another.

Another idea would to use a kerosene heater for temporary. It would take a longer time to get the chill out of the air though when starting from cold. And they don't vent to the outside so there's the worry about fresh air and not getting asphyxiated.  

A genset is a good temporary power source, but PV panels are probably the best long term solution. There's also wind and hydro suitable for some locations.

It doesn't look too high off the ground to me. Much better to have some room to work under it than not.

[theshack]

Thanks for the advice, any specific models that any would recommend for a small wood burning unit? Changing ashes often isn't too big of a deal, neither is cutting wood short- so I think just about the most  basic stove would work and I don't even know where to start looking. I'm planning on living in this over the next summer, and who knows how much longer after that. It's going to be my temporary shelter while going to school and over summers. Completely off the grid and plan to stay. No reliable stream very near, so I'm investigating ways I can supply all my own water (or at least have a way to transport from family's house about 10 miles away.) I don't think electricity will be much of a problem I pretty require a radio and am planning a few lights running off a deep cycle. A main issue I just can't solve is that 6AM shower before work. (Can't really skip the shower I have an engineering internship) I have considered a Solar shower, but there isn't too much sunlight at 6am. I was thinking an RV water heater would work, only need a few minutes of warm water. I dont think I'm hardcore enough to take a cold shower everymorning. But the next problem would be having pressure to push the hot water, not sure how gravity would work in a situation like this. This is my project for the year, living self sufficient and as cheaply as possible. Not entirely sure how feasible it is but I'm gonna give it a try. Thanks much!


Mark L.

[MountainDon]

Mark, I'll give you my totally biased opinion on the stove first.  

http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productdetails.cfm?id=135

There are less pricey stoves, but to me they have shortcomings, such as ugly, inefficient (not air tight), too big, look cheap and ugly. The Vermont Casting stoves are well made cast iron units that look good as well as supply heat. They have thermostatically controllable bimetal air intakes and can be fitted with an optional outside fresh air intake. I like the Aspen, a small non catalytic stove.

Water: You can learn to make do with less than you think and still be hygienic. I'd not want to "look forward" to a cold shower every morning. No sir!

I'd think like an RV user. You'd need a tank to hold the fresh water in. You'd use a 12 VDC pump (RV item) to supply the water to the fixtures, simple sink and a shower. Use a propane powered RV water heater. They heat relatively quickly from cold. A trick I learned too is that the pilot light alone will warm the water to shower temp over a period of 12 to 24 hours, Pilots use very little propane, and the insulated RV tank stores the warmed water rather well. Just have to think ahead or leave it on pilot all the time if used every day. I can shower on 2 gallons of water easy. I use a low flow head.

For the actual shower you could use a regular prefab shower stall unit. There are some simple ones available. Or you could make do with a base and drain with a shower curtain surround. Old cast iron tubs are sometimes fitted with a metal rail system to hand shower curtains around the tub. You could also see if there are any RV salvage dealers nearby. You might be able to find a shower, a sink, pump, etc. used. Used can be a good deal IF they're working. The used water heater may not be a bargain tho' as a lot of RV owners fail to change/renew the anti-corrosion anode rod which may lead to premature tank failure. Depends.

You might even find an RV propane furnace or stove top to use, depending on price. Ditto the RV fridge.

As for hauling water, what kind of vehicle do you have for transport? Water weighs in at 8.3 pounds per gallon, plus container. I use 1 and 5 gallon plastic containers in low use times and a sixty gallon salvaged barrel during the season of higher use. I haul it behind the Cherokee in a utility trailer I own.

Don't forget that the water lines need to be installed with slopes to one or two low points equipped with drains to carry through the unoccupied winter times.

You never mentioned waste water or toilet facilities. That can be a bugaboo depending on local ordinances.

What type of engineering?? And where abouts in the MN woods are you? Curious. Don

[theshack]

Hi there,

I'm pretty much in central MN, The Brainerd Lakes Area, Deerwood to be exact. I'm actually going to Automotive Engineering at Mankato State University, in my second year this year.

For waste water I'm planning on a grey water system, there is a swampy area just down the hill. I'm actually planning a garden for next spring right now so thats most likely where most of the water will go as we have been in a 4 year drought cycle in the area. Sewage disposal, sawdust composting outhouse for sure. I am really liking the idea of the whole 12v pump system and then run it to a sink also for dishes etc. I worked for a plumber for about 4 summers so I have a pretty good background in a lot of the simple stuff. Well as for water transport, I know I won't need a lot myself. Always have a truck available to use which I could haul a 55 gallon tank or so. Or else I have a car which wouldn't be able to handle much. I'm in a very remote area a water truck would not be able to access.

That looks like a nice stove set up! Thanks for putting that up, I will definitely consider it.

Thanks Mt. Don

Mark L.

[MountainDon]

Good luck with school, Mark.

Brainerd, the original home of Paul Bunyan Land. Pretty country. Lots of lakes.  

Years ago I raced a few times at Brainerd Internatinal. Was loads of fun! First in class once.  

Good on the grey water use.   and G/L on the garden.

[glenn kangiser]

Don't forget the Coleman water heater - built in pump if I recall correctly.

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Portable-Hot-Water-Heater/dp/B0000AE6XA

Welcome to the forum, Mark.

Enough water for a mini-dynamo?

Water ram to deliver water?

Rust battery?  http://rmrc.org/rustpower.html

[MountainDon]

I did forget about the Coleman. Good for camping and more of a temporary, low cost use. But may fit into the budget better. There's also the Zodi. Never used either.

[glenn kangiser]

Hadn't heard of Zodi - looks like they have a lot of stuff.

http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodihottaptravelshower.html

http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodiproducts.html

[MountainDon]

Since we're talking about off grid water heating I thought I'd toss this one in. It's a home made heat exchanger on one of my friends Jeep. Simply a loop of soft 1/2 copper tubing in a larger diameter copper tube. A Harbor freight 12 VDC pump is used to circulate the shower water while the engine runs. It works, lake or stream water usually comes out just warm. For a warmer/hotter shower it works best if the water is pumped through to a 5 gallon bucket first, then re-circulated for a very nice hot shower.

[glenn kangiser]

Good idea.  Please add a oven to warm my burritos.

[John Raabe]

Interesting idea for a water heater. It got me thinking about backwoods heaters.

When I was in the Peace Corps in Iran we had a kerosene water heater and a guy with a burro and two 5 gallon cans strapped to its back delivering the kerosene.

While propane has displaced much of this in rurul America, there is still something to be said for the easier transport of oil and kerosene. It has a higher heat density (and the burro would certainly know the difference! )

Here's a tankless water heater I didn't know existed.



http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/WaterHeating/toyotomi/toyotomi-water-heater-mainpage.htm

[MountainDon]

88% efficiency, electronic spark ignition. Great for those with diesel fuel availability too it would seem.

Propane becomes less convenient when you have to lug the tanks around.

Searching the same sight led to the first RV replacement tankless water heater I'd ever seen. And they make that claim themselves too. Pricey when compared to the traditional tank style RV water heater, but so are home units when compared to tanks. Great energy savings tho'.

Thanks John

[theshack]

Thanks Glenn and John for posting those. Don- that looks like it would be about perfect for week long off road adventure! Very cool! John, that looks like it would be about the ultimate water heater for an off grid home, little out  of my price range at the time being. I was looking at the Coleman and Zodi, and the Zodi's look fairly reasonable, but I think the Haz-mat line would be the most maitenance free as it does not need battery power and would rarely need a propane tank filled. I'm still considering using a RV tank/pump/heater, but with the simplicity and low price of the Zodi's and Coleman, seems hard to beat. Might get to enjoy out side showers with a good view most days! Anyone use rainwater harvesting for showering here? Seems all that it would take would be some filtering out of the larger particles and it would be able to run through pump no problem. Main question-how do you keep bugs/green algae out of the water, seems like a tank full of rainwater, even covered, would be trouble some? Thanks,


Mark L.

[theshack]

Well, checked out the Zodi site some more, found out the Haz-mat line is pretty expensive. But the next option that looks affordable and liveable is this one-   http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodix40shower.html

Mark L.

[MarkAndDebbie]

Main question-how do you keep bugs/green algae out of the water, seems like a tank full of rainwater, even covered, would be trouble some?

I think algae photosynthesize - so if you had an opaque tank with a lid - no algae. As for bugs, screens? I saw something about them using a thin film of oil on the top of cisterns to keep mosquitoes from breeding there (maybe this old house in the Caribbean?)

[MountainDon]

We collect some rainwater. There's always something floating on top, pollen is what I see mostly. Screening keeps out the larger stuff. There's always sediment as well, dirt, small particles of whatever was laying on the roof, guano (bird $h**). The water in between seems clear enough to the eye, but I'd keep my mouth shut when showering. If the collected water didn't smell bad it would likely be okay for bathing and the like.

Collecting/storing in opaque containers will keep the algae from flourishing.

Used imported pickle and pepper barrels are available in 50+ gallon sizes. If you can find a food processor locally they would be the best bet for a cheap barrel.  We have a couple barrels we got from  http://www.midwestinternetsales.com/rainbarrels.htm   Scroll down for blemished barrels at lower prices. They are nice heavy walled containers.

For a 12 VDC pump look for something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9576
I have a couple and this is the same pump that my friend uses with the Jeep water heater shown previously.

[MountainDon]

FYI, for 12 VDC power the commonly used auto power outlets, aka cigar lighter outlets, are junk IMHO.

I use 20 amp / 250 VAC rated plugs, connectors and receptacles from Cooper Wiring Devices. They are keyed so they cannot be plugged into 120 VAC units and vice versa. Ideal for 12 VDC unless you also have real 240/250 VAC circuits in use in the same place.



Be sure to size wire appropriately for current draw and distance.

One further note re 12 VDC. Do not use AC only rated switches on DC circuits. They will not last very long.

[theshack]

Just got another picture from a friend, thanks for all the suggestions. I agree with Mountain Don, the cigarette lighters are just. The best solution I have found is quick disconnects right from the batter, but the plug idea would work even better. Does anyone have a good idea for a storage tank for water? I have seen the ferro cement tanks and they seem like a cheap way to go, but seem like once made they would be immovable.. Thanks



Mark L.

[MountainDon]

That post of John's re the Kerosene tankless water heater prompted me to do some more looking. The same website has a Bosch propane fueled tankless heater good for one major appliance at a time for $600. Pretty reasonable I figure. A unique feature is the hydro powered ignition. No electrical use at all for the heater, of course you still need something to generate the water pressure required; either a very tall hill or a pump.    Also available in a standard pilot model for $100 less.  :-/

I was surprised by the price. Still about double that of a typical direct spark ignition RV 6 gallon tank heater, but much higher efficiency.

The Bosch would not be a good candidate for running off small 20# tanks tho' as the small tanks can not supply the higher flow rates required for the maximum heating range of the Bosch, without frosting. Not sure if a 40# would do, either.... might be on the edge of okay.    Then again maybe short run times, like brief shoers, water for washing dishes, etc. wouldn't run into that problem. Large propane construction heaters for example, run longer and do experience supply problems.

[tanya]

I have a generator and I also have a thing thta you buy at the auto parts store it has a air compressor for pumping up the tires, batter cables for jumping the battery AND two led lights AND two 12V plug in recepticles.  Now this thing is very cool because I charge it up while I have the generator on, like now while I am on line.  Then I can use it to run my 12V shower it is so easy I simply unplug it from it's charger and stick it inthe bathroom where I plug inthe shower.  I got the shower on ebay for $10 plus $20 shipping search 12V protable shower msake sure you get the 12v kind though because I bet they use a  lot of batteries if you just get a battery operated one.  Then I simply heat water up in a canning pot either onthe propane or ont he wood stove then I pour the HOT water into a five gallon bucket next to the bathtub and add cold water leaving it jsut a bit hot because the bathroom is quite chillyt hese days and a hot shower feels good.  This 12V shower is the best one I have had, I bought the zodi and it heats fine but the pump only uses the D batteries and the pressure sucks which makes it a cold shower in a cold bathroom, I have two solar showers which make fine hand washing stations near the outhouse but lousy showers due to the fact that it is impossible to hang them high enough to stand under them and again the water pressue sucks.  This 12V shower is so good even my friend who visited this summer who said she would be staying with another friend because she has allthe convieniences ended up staying once she tried and liked the shower.  It takes about 15 minutes to heat up the canning pot full of boiling hot water on the propane.  The 12V power box thing is good for three or more showers a day, so far the most we have had to use it is for three.  Five gallons of water also is plenty for me to wash my hair and shave my legs aAND do a full scrub and cleaning my feet, I know that is kind of weird but my feet get really dirty living ont his mountain and it takes some time and work to get them looking right again so the point I am trying to make is five gallons of hot water is plenty enough for a long shower and the  special added bonus is that there is a lottle water left inthe bottom of the bucket when you get done and the tub gets rinsed out when you pour out the left over water.  I am telling yout his 12V shower is the best thing ever and I can take it camping with no hassle at all, it would fit in a very small handbag.  Good Luck with your endeavors.  

[glenn kangiser]

That is probably the Bosch we have, Don.  HX125 -LP if I recall the numbers correctly.  NG is for natural gas we found out the hard way.  The dealer didn't know that and we found out after we ordered the wrong one--  BTW the NG is still in the box and for sale.  It got one ding in the case during shipping but otherwise new.  These Bosch units are not convertible from NG to LP -- they are a whole different animal.

Regulating to happy heat is very touchy but doable if you are very careful -- and it will do 2 smaller fixtures at once pretty well.  

We are running ours on an outside wall with no chimney as is the local fire chief - has his in his attic with no chimney.

[MountainDon]

Yep, the 125HX and it's newer twin the 1600H are indistinguishable from reading the specs.

Did you have any trouble optimizing the burner for your altitude? For my mountain altitude all they say is see your propane dealer.   :-/$$  I re-adjusted the RV appliances myself.

I'm rethinking my appliances for the cabin-2-be. I'm now thinking of going with a tankless propane water heater instead of recycling an RV tank heater I have. Much more efficient. There's an even smaller unit that might do the job in a water conserving habitat, the 1000P, $309.00    http://www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/aquastar/aquastar1000ptech.asp

It's now so cool up there the fridge stays on pilot only most of the time. I'm using 20 and 40# bottles with an auto changeover regulator since I ran the RV main tank dry and don't feel like driving it down and up the mountain for refilling. I could barely measure the weight drop over the past 2 weeks. Yes, I have an old scale; love the numbers.  

[glenn kangiser]

2910 feet here, Don -- thought I better give you a few numbers to work with.  Seems like you are in need of something to crunch.

I don't recall any problem with the optimization - seemed like leaving the chimney off was something that would possibly make it better.  Whatever it was - it seemed to work fine and we don't have any problems with it.