Can I build as I wish on my own rural land?

Started by hnash53, November 06, 2006, 06:45:54 PM

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hnash53


The subject question applies to property outside of cities, town, municipalities.  In other words, rural, vacant, land.  In a desire to live much more simply, not tied to water and power grids, just how much freedom to build as I desire do I have?  Specifically, I am talking about my own type of foundation (insulating pier-post foundation), grey water treatment, outhouse (for black water) or other black water treatment short of septic system.

I imagine that I'll get answers saying that it varies from place to place and that I need to check with county officials and the like.

Finally, those of you who already live out like this, where are you?  

Does anyone know of places where one can build as such?

Thanks for your replies.

Hal

skiwest

Well I have land in a place where there is no building code other than electric and septic.  Septic has to be designed by a certified person so as long as you get his buy in you could do inovative things with greywater.  I think several areas of the interior of B.C. are like that.

They got rid of the prov. inspectors for septic to increase innovation but all it did was increase prices as now the designer is liable for many years for the installation.


Amanda_931

It's definitely an "It all depends."

Most of the states have bought into one of the comprehensive codes plans.  Not all parts of every state inforce this.  And if they don't now, the chances are pretty good that what you've built will be grandfathered in if they do all go to codes enforcement.

Grid electricity and Sewage are the two areas most likely to be enforced.  I have friends who have outhouses grandfathered in, even if they do have grid electricity.

The old septic tank inspector told me that I had to have a septic tank, but nobody could make me use it.

Kevin

My place in Vermont has no building codes when I built it, but now there is a code for the septic only.
This is only for my area in the state. Each down area makes up its own codes here. Like I said there were none when I built but a neighbor right down the road had to deal with building codes. So like you said "all depends" and you need to check with the town, county, and State. But they are out there. There just becoming scares.
Kevin

hnash53

They can MAKE you be on the electric grid ??!!

What about all I hear and read regarding offgrid living?  I'm gettng pretty pissed off about our culture saying that you've got to live the way THEY say you are going to live.  How you build your house.  How you provide power for your place.  How you handle refuse.  Believe me, the last thing I would do is pollute my own place!!

Are there any alternatives to septic system that are allowed anywhere other than those already grandfathered in?

Thanks.


skiwest

You mean like composting toilets?  In BC you can use alternates but a certified person has to design them.  Here you can always take the course and certify it yourself.

As far as being off the grid, that is allowed.  No one says you have to be connected but if you are the connection has to be to code.

littlegirlgo

Most states have exceptions if you are willing to go through the paper work and  EFFORT. I am currently on a hopefully not endless path  ;) to get a composting toilet approved. Many of the bigger composting toilet manufacturers have NSF ( National Sanitation Foundation) approval and that helps.  Some of the homemade designs are engineered approved.  If you go to Sun Mar or Biolet online you can local up local dealers.

The key is you need to find like minded people in your state and talk to them. My county guy told me several things which were not exactly accurate but he might not even know. He just regurgatates info given to him. Many states ( Im in KY) have solar groups and all states have Sierra Clubs. Go to those people and ask about your off grid living in your area.
Live Simply So That Others May Simply Live

hnash53

I'm thinking properly constructed outdoor privies/outhouses.

So what are they getting these days for installation of a septic system?

I'm prepared to be floored by the price.

Amanda_931



jwv

On rural land I don't know that you would have to be grid-tied(YMMV). Get HomePower magazine; there's a lot of info on their website http://www.homepower.com/. HOAs are usually the culprits of stupid nonsense rules.  Stay away from them if you want to do anything outside the box.
Judy
http://strawbaleredux.blogspot.com/

"One must have chaos in one's self to give birth to the dancing star" ~Neitszche

glenn kangiser

Our county says you must tie to the grid if it is available.  I say over my dead body.

Septic around my area is about 5 to 6 thousand for a normal system.  Up from there for more exotic solutions.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

hnash53

So, Glenn,

You are not tied to the grid?  If not, how'd you manage that in light of your statement?

Also, thanks for the price  estimate of septic.  May I ask, are you on septic?  If not, how not?

Thanks.

littlegirlgo

My quote for a septic tank was $5100 and the tie in for grid was roughly $4000. I do not plan to use either but I wanted financial comparisons.

Even if you are not around KY this sight has good info on line. Look under the Solar Guide.

http://www.kysolar.org/case5.htm

Also I have found these two distributers to have lots of info as well.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/index.htm
http://home.altenergystore.com/
Live Simply So That Others May Simply Live

glenn kangiser

#13
I sometimes forget to ask, Hal ---- getting old I guess so I just continue doing what I need to do out of necessity.  Put up the wind generator as an experiment - forgot to take it down I guess -- then while we were waiting on a call back from the electric co. we needed something for power, so we put in a few thousand watts of panels.  Funny to watch the power go out in the county but we still have it.  Oh-- BTW --their reasoning was that it was too unreliable and if we wouldn't take care of ourselves the state would take care of us ---- again --- over my dead stinking rotting carcass. :)

That would be a yes --- when I went to the store there were no laws posted stopping me from buying a tank.  Place was already profiled - and oops - think it may have slipped my mind.  Damn alzheimers. :(

I posted this sign with the day use fee




and my intent is to push the issue if the time comes.  

I don't know how it would work for you -- I don't know how it would work for me --- but I have heard it is effective and have heard local stories of similar signs and issues working if one is educated on the issues enough to protect themselves.  Who knows -- avoiding the confrontation as long as possible and not throwing sticks into the hive at this point.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


littlegirlgo

Glen
Where did you get the sign? Did you post it at the road.
:D
Live Simply So That Others May Simply Live

glenn kangiser

The website --with lots of information on property rights is on the bottom corner of the sign.

http://www.landrights.com/
LANDRIGHTS.COM

There is a real good education waiting there if you want to spend the time.  Your results depend on lots of things but the information is there.  Your rights will not be upheld if you don't know them.  

I have about 8 or 10 of the signs on my driveway , alternate driveway, cul-de-sac, front porch so I can take a digital photo of the respasser when I present him with his $5000 invoice for the day use fee.  Next step is to take (him/them) to small claims court.  If your court doesn't allow up to $5000 then you can reduce it to the allowed amount.  By willfully continuing onto your property when it is posted he is agreeing to pay the fee.  Like when you install software-- you agree to the terms and not do it or you continue on signifying that you agreed to the terms.


You can print it out and laminate it and post it to trees - it will last a year or more if laminated.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

desdawg

I would rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. The big hammer that is used is a clearance for an electric meter. If you are off grid-----no hammer. In the parts of Arizona that I am familiar with an approved septic system is required to obtain an electrical meter. I have an off grid remote property and I have never gotten any permits for anything I have done there. My electricity is provided by the sun and there is no one around to complain. Yes, there are county regulations but I would rather beg for forgiveness.........if it ever comes to that. I could use one of those signs though.  ;)
I have done so much with so little for so long that today I can do almost anything with absolutely nothing.

glenn kangiser

Interesting little story - my renter saw two sheriffs sitting at the cul-de-sac several months ago.  Asked them if they knew it was private property and if he could help them.  They replied that they were just trying to figure out who lived up there.  Guess I got their interest. :)

We own both sides of the road with an easment there too.

My other neighbor nearest me is a retired police officer.  He put up a bunch of no trespassing signs -- regular -- all around there too.  

We are nice guys --- really.  :-/ :)  We just figure we still have some rights and that we should control who we want to have access to our property even if there isn't a gate on it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

glenn kangiser

That's the way I see it also desgawg --- well OK --- I don't grovel well.  :(

I figure when one of them evolves high enough that he outgrows the need to defecate, then he will be superior to me and I  will grovel (under duress) --- OK --- so I probably won't then either -- let him snuff me out like a burned out cigarette butt.
:-/ :)

Anyway, desdawg -- print yourself out a few and laminate them - If the above one isn't good enough quality go to the Landrights site - I got mine from there and it prints up real good. :)  Enjoy.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Woodrules

Hi Hal,

Please allow me to chime in.  I bought a nice 9+ acre piece in southern New Hampshire (Charlestown) two years ago.  The land is on a class 6 road ( non-town maintained) so I called the town hall to inquire what the building codes were.  To my surprise and pleasure I was told there was none!  The only caveat is that if I plan a full sized home I have to have a state approved septic in place before I build.  Since I planned (and have) to build a mini-cabin I did not have to get a permit of any kind.  There are still towns in New Hampshire that practice what they put on their license plates - Live Free or Die.  Oh, I forgot to tell you that the folks in the planning office supplied me with a schematic of a proven outhouse design that I followed and have been happy with ever since.  
Semper Fidelis.


glenn kangiser

OK, Woodrules  --- what country were you in? :)

Just kidding -- that is absolutely wonderful.  Finally we hear from a place that doesn't run over the rights of the owner-builder in a rural area.  You would think that a place like that with such a flagrant absense of regulation would just fall off the face of the earth. :-/
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

glenn kangiser

From http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/proprightsfrms.htm

Quote"My recommendation to any concerned local property owner is to dash down to the court house and get their "exhaustive chain-of-title" completed!  I would also recommend that anybody testifying remind the county that the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution applies to all subdivisions of government.  A taking is reached when a government entity destroys the NET income from prohibiting some of the rights to USE the property.  A couple of things to remember about title:  an exhaustive chain-of-title creates FULL title, not color of title.  A title company only provides "color of title".  Once you trace the property back to the patent or treaty of origin and collect all property transfer documents in between, you have obtained full title.  Then a property owner can, if they want to push the matter that far, tell the governing authority that they are not required to get their permits, etc., because they have full title.  If the governing body still wants to push the matter, the property owner can tell the entity to show up with their checkbook and expect to pay highest and best use value for the property.  In these battles, full title is your big stick." - Ramona Hage Morrison, daughter of Wayne and Jean Hage, Nevada ranchers. July 26, 2004

more

QuoteA right undefended is a right waived. The protection of property rights is fundamentally the preservation of civil liberties. - Wayne Hage, February 13, 2001. http://www.rangemagazine.com/archives/stories/summer01/David_Goliath.htm

The biggest thing people must understand is that, if people want the government to take care of them, they have no absolutely property rights -- they have only relative rights, i.e., their property is pledged to the social insecurity debt. Therefore, they must perform to the dictates of the government. - Lee Brobst, September 4, 2003

"Neither 'property' nor the value of property is a physical thing. Property is a set of defined options ... It is that set of options which has economic value ... It is the options, and not the physical things, which are the "property" -- economically as well as legally ... But because the public tends to think of property as tangible, physical things, this opens the way politically for government confiscation of property by forcibly taking away options while leaving the physical objects untouched." - Thomas Sowell

"If we don't know our rights (under the Constitution), then we don't have any." - Jane Taylor, New Jersey

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

glenn kangiser

#22
From http://www.landrights.com/building_permits.htm    

QuoteBUILDING PERMITS



In this Short Article I will attempt to pass on a few points of interest relevant to Local Building Permits.

Inasmuch as a contract consists of three points (Offer, Acceptance & Consideration), it is clear that a building permit is a contract.  Thus it should always be remembered that when you sign your name to a contract it becomes binding and for want of a better term; "You belong!"  So you must always ask for full disclosure of your permit (contract). If you were denied full disclosure, it would appear as if your local government is perpetrating a fraud.  Don't sign without that "full disclosure"!  Always keep in mind that when you sign for the permit you are giving the local government full control over your property.  Keep in mind that they wrote the rules governing permits.

In your full disclosure request, ask your local representative for the legal documents that allow them to supercede and bypass 42 USC 1982; and/or 42 USC 1441.  Research shows that government officials must have a monetary or proprietary interest in your real or personal property in order to have jurisdiction over it.   Please remember that real property is that which is intangible; (your land or dirt) while personal property is that which can be moved, carried or is tangible; such as your house, car, etc.; 42 USC 1983, protects both kinds of property.

In any event, if you have singed a permit application and they have not tendered you a full disclosure, you may have a legal action for fraud.

If you find any wording in the contract you do not agree with, ask for a straightedge and draw a single line through the letters or words you wish to exclude.  Initial and date the corresponding side of the page.  If the other party signs, it's a done deal.  What you have drawn a line through shows your rejection of that portion of the contract and as such, that portion is invalid and no longer part of the agreement.  Don't try and block out the words.  A simple straight line is sufficient.  Government officials are charged with the knowledge of their own rules and are supposed to know the law pertaining to their governmental functions.

All of the above may be worth looking into.  After all, the same government officials have most likely threatened you with jail and/or fines if you did not sign.  Remember that you only signed the application for the permit.  The infractions were then carried forth through verbal allegations of violations.

In closing, it is important to remember that they are not entitled to qualified immunity from liability by asserting a good faith claim relevant to the acts of municipal officials as a defense to a 42 USC 1983 Violation. See, Owen v City of Independence, Missouri, 445 US 622 (1980).

Example of words  lined out in contract   http://www.landrights.com/example_contract.htm


NOTE:  The above postings are information only from my research on property rights.  What you do with it and results from use of it are your responsibility.  Glenn
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Woodrules

Glenn, you are right- it is refreshing to speak to people in government that do not talk down to you. My experiences in NH have been quite the opposite; people there try to help you build your dream instead of attempting to talk you out of it.     :)
Semper Fidelis.

John Raabe

#24
I wonder if moving to NH would help Glenn with his attitude?  ;)

It is definitely harder to have a "Live Free" attitude in CA.  Just too many people with property values to protect and opinions about how you should live your life.

My experience has been that I have better luck with honey rather than vinegar... but this is rural WA state too. Where we do have state wide Building Codes but generally humanoid inspectors.


None of us are as smart as all of us.