new to this forum....question what are the best solar panels and brand to lower or get off the public grid. Where do i get the best info on this subject & suppliers? Live in south texas and plan to downsize my life, build a new home soon. Plan is to get off the public utility for all energy if possible. Plan to super insulate and use small A?C unit as heating is not an issue. any suggestions will be helpful. thanks garry
At this time, you will not likely save money by getting off the grid. You can be independent, but costs will likely be more. In general solar costs $5 per watt, plus inverters, regulators, batteries - towers etc.
Supposedly there are some who claim to get the cost down to a dollar or so per watt but they seem to be tying themselves up with only big business. I think by the time the middle men get through with it if ever released to the general public, we will never see it that cheap for a long time.
with the use of lcd lites, flour bulbs, super insulation, solar room as heat with small backup, then add 20-30K on the PV modules are you saying the payoff would be long or never?? i thought that if all details were covered in construction the energy use can be moved down 70% or so and a small house could be energy independant or very close to 100% self reliant....not so? garry
You can be (electrical) energy independent, but it will usually cost you a good sized initial outlay. When you look at that vs. what your reduced amount of energy use would actually cost from the power company you'll likely find your home generated power costs more than the power companies. Of course we can not accurately forecast what power company power might cost in the future.
Question for you. Your initial question was "... to lower or get off the public grid". There are two ways to go, totally off grid andf grid tied. In some places the local power companies offer a good deal where you get an equitable amount for excess power you generate. In some places you don't. Here in NM our power company has a very good deal for co-generators. One advantage to being grid tied is that you can forego the batteries, which can cost a lot. Of course if you do that you loose your independence. If the grid goes down so do you.
If you have batteries sufficient to run the home through cloudy periods you are truly independent. There are folks who don't mind the larger investment in equipment for that. It can also be a great boon in time of emergency; hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, etc. You have to assign a value to that.
Tom at TheSolar.biz (http://thesolar.biz/default.htm) is a good place to start for info and pricing a system. So is Affordable Solar (http://www.affordable-solar.com/). Both are in NM.
Generally you don't want to heat or cool too much with self generated electrical power.
I won't say can't be done - depends on the situation, but we using propane for water heating, cooking and clothes drier to keep away from resistive uses burning power. We do not ue A/C. We do pump about 600 gpd water for the garden with a standard pump.
We are currently at the equivalent of about a 30 to $40k system if we didn't do the work ourselves. It could possibly be enough if we didn't have to pump the water - otherwise it would be more to add A/C without getting rid of the propane appliances.
Still nice to be mostly independent though - andwe saved nearly $1000 by not being on grid when it went down here due to the fire. I still used generator assist for pumping extra water for wetting things down on days when the fire was near and ash was falling on us.
Note that if you are resourceful and build your own wind generators etc. you could cut expenses, but the trade off is your time and it's value.
thanks for your thoughts guys....being new to the owner built housing market i need all the help i can get!! also being pulled in many directions as i look into all the things in the marketplace that "save energy".....lights,geothermal,solar,insulations types and all the costs....quite a world !!
i may not make the dream of being energy self reliant....but can darn sure cut my monthly energy outlay way back....i have years of DIY experience from remodeling 3 homes to building room additions. many of the units and sysytems i look at seem to me to be priced ok with the labor being done by myself i hope to cover all construction and systems with a total cost around 150K finished.....DO YOU THINK THIS CAN BE DONE???? plan to build house around 1500-1600 sq ft....YOUR THOUGHTS?? garry
You can get about 6 Kw of solar PV and grid tie related parts as a kit for about $30K. Subtracting that from your 150K leaves around 120K.
Does the 120K have to buy land too?
If you don't want grid tie you'll need a good battery bank; and that'll cost a few bucks.
One thing you need to do is an honest electrical use assessment. Then you can work out the number of panels, batteries and so on.
We have many here who have done homes a bit smaller or near that size for much less. Depends on what's included.
Check out Jimmy Cason's. http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1071.0
no land costs in the 150K....i do however want to have the fexiblity of having a grid connection or at least having the grid come to my door as a backup/emergency. don't like the idea of battery banks so i may need to adjust my thoughts somewhat??
cooling is going to be my largest issue as we have some many summer days in texas ...... geothermal seems the only way to go but front end costs are a bear....any ideas on these areas....cooling units etc?? garry
Many of the solar installations use swamp coolers rather than A/C if it works in your area due to much lower power usage.
Battery banks take maintenance but are the only way of insuring that your power does not go out when the grid does unless you have a backup generator. Some places here were out of power nearly a week or more as the grid was down for the fire. One lady at the party lost over $1000 of food, another over $500 and 3 other neighbors on our road unknown quantities. We lost nothing having our own power. On grid it would have been over $1500 likely.
Hmmmm... here's some free advice that is probably overpriced...
1: Spend extra on insulation and radiation barriers. Plant trees / vines on trellises to keep the sun off the house, and make sure your attic / roof is well vented. You can't go back and insulate after you're done, so do it right. Overdo it. Watch out for skylights. You can seal those up by mounting another layer in the skylight using polycarbonate sheet about 8" down from the dome. You don't notice the sheet, but it traps the warm air up there.
2: If you really want to be off grid, don't cool the whole house. Maybe install ducting for whole house cooling / heating, but use window units or wall mounted individual units to cool bedrooms / other rooms only when needed.
3: Avoid vaulted ceilings or any space that just looks good but is not functional. Ditto for big windows.
4: Put bedrooms on the north east side of the house. Make sure that ventilation through windows is balanced to take advantage of cool evening / night / morning hours. Make sure your shower area has lots of windows for venting.
5: Build an outside kitchen. At least an oven.
6: Good ceiling fans. Put timers on everything, especially ceiling fans. Have them run for an hour or so while you fall asleep, then have them turn off.
7: If you tie into the grid, you need an inverter that syncs to the grid. If you use a non-syncing transfer switch, you can use a much less expensive inverter, but you won't be able to sell your excess power back. You can do without batteries if grid tied, but if grid goes down you are as blacked out as anyone else on the grid.
8: PVs are crappy for W per $$$. Use wind as much as possible.
9: "High" efficiency LED lighting is not really all that efficient but costs lots and lots. Use cfts instead.
10: Put your water heater out in the garage, or outside your insulated space. Same with the washer and dryer if your wife will allow. BTW... get used to clothes line drying ;D
11: Make use of awnings / shutters to keep the windows shaded.
I second the power budget. Know for sure what you have to have to get by.
my absolute max is 150K....would like to come in under that if possible.....you guys have opened up my thought process considerable just the last couple days. pls add anything you want....ideas?...new tech ...old tech? i need all the help i can get to think thru as i start into my "NEXT PHASE OF LIVING"
would love to have a forum like this build the house and energy farm thru ideas and past history.... ya'll have in your likes and dislikes, successes and failures....hind sight is twenty twenty
as i think....where two or more are gathered looking at a common goal the think tank multiplies much faster than 1-2-3 more like 2-8-32.... pls add more garry
outdoor cooking is something i have wanted to build in....at least a good outdoor grill and burners...i cook out alot and would more if i had a properly designed outdoor kitchen area.
like the idea for flue dampers or ?? to cut off areas not needing cooling/heating. most times it my wife and i so most rooms can be shut down to minimize the ac needed
insulation i plan to use is foam type....house built like and ice chest....issues ?? thoughts
i do however want windows....have thought about 3 pane types in critical areas to block heat gain and loss?? these do not need to be the floor to ceiling types just a good wall of windows to bring the outdoors inside?? thoughts
skylights....do they make ones that do not leak?? ....yrs ago ran into bad issues with skylights brands ideas
i may be thinking of a design or interior look that are not realistic.....
How about doing a house and adding John's Sun Room onto it -
http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/35.html
or the Solar Saltbox.
http://www.countryplans.com/whid_hs.htm
the solar saltbox is close to the size i want.....i might add slightly more porch. the house looks like it could easily fit inside my cost line and still have the energy system.
ive looked at this type design many times thru the years.....two story may not be the bestas far as air conditioning (cooling) due to the movement needed to condition all the volumes??
question....does anyonehave knowledge of a barrier coating that is applied to the underside of a roof and reflect infared heat away from the interior....i think it is sold by sherwin williams?? saw something on tv a few weeks back?? has micro particles tha when dry form a radiant barrier similar to the scales on a butterfly wing. new product or new to me looks like it mighht be useful cutting radiant heat out of the attics or wall cavity
That is John's house so he knows it inside and out.
I have heard of a cardboard product that does that and seen it in commercial buildings.
i would like to know if he thinks the house with todays new products could be improved on...and any changes he would make. is he a member of this board?? he might add some thoughts/inputs.
noticed the ideas post by nm shooter .... then as a read more posts i then noticed a post from him about Red Lake Canada fishing....he is the only person a have ever run across/ talked to that has been to that small remote town....what a wonderful place....the whole place is barely on the grid!!
Yup - John owns the board and while here pretty regularly he has a hard time getting to it all.
I'll message him to drop in here.
Reflective barrier insulations come into fashion with every new oil crises. They were totally oversold in the 1970's & 80's and there is a new marketing blitz starting up again. The idea seems so plausible. We'll just reflect all that heat back from where it came! Keep it inside in winter and outside in summer.
Too bad they don't really work. :-[ :-\
A full exhaustive study done many years ago found that the only time and place that reflective barrier insulation was actually worth installing was in the attic of high heat climates such as FL or AZ. There it could be stapled under the vented rafters in the attic and, at least until dust settled on the foil, it would save enough on cooling to justify the cost.
For all other installations convection and conduction forces are the ones that transport most of the heat so that the old fashioned trapped air insulation is what makes the most sense.
R-value rules! ;)
Quote from: ghutch1951 on August 19, 2008, 12:44:55 AM
i then noticed a post from him about Red Lake Canada fishing....he is the only person a have ever run across/ talked to that has been to that small remote town....what a wonderful place....the whole place is barely on the grid!!
If you want odd coincidences, here you go. I live in NM as does NM_Shooter. Many dears ago I had a summer job hauling dairy products into Red Lake from Thunder Bay. Now you've run into 2 people who's been there. Classy bunch of folks who hang out here.
Garry, I'm on Cedar Creek Lake in East Tx, about 60 miles SE of Dallas. I just completed my cabin (retirement home) in June of this year and you can see it here http://www.bobdanaslakehouse.blogspot.com/. I can tell you that without the help of the many wonderful people on this site, I'd still be trying to figure out which way is up. John and Glenn, Don and Peg, just to name a few are all great help with anything you come up against and happy to help all the time.
I got a lot of help from Glenn on the subject of power. I too wanted to be off grid and independent. That was before I had the stars kicked out of my eyes by Glenn and others that convinced me I really didn't want to do that after all. Instead, I built, what I consider, the second best solution for my wife and me. We took 5 years total in the building and paid for it as we went so maybe have a few more extras than some. Quickly, we went with a pier and beam foundation, 2X4 stud walls and a metal roof. We had trusses engineered and built by a local truss company which enabled us to have a loft and no attic but, every surface covered with Icynene foam insulation. We also used low-e glass and only two south windows are exposed to the sun. The rest are under a 10' wide wrap around porch. We spent extra and installed an 18 SEER A/C unit, a whold house water filter system and a drop in direct vent fire place. We have about 1500 sf total living area and our current electrical usage last month was 810 KWH. We cook with propane both inside the house and out on the porch/patio. We use electrical hot water because I didn't want a vent going through the roof for an on demand system plus the cost just didn't seem to offer a payback I felt worth it.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have or show you my place if you live close by.
Okie Bob
"Classy bunch of folks who hang out here."
No wonder I have such an urge to head to Red Lake. ;D
You are too kind, BoB.
We just get off on telling you things to do so we can watch you work. d*
Great house okie bob !!.....looks like i could enjoy the water backyard ...i have fished c creek several times as i lived in ftw area many years. very close to what i want to build 15-1600 sq ft ..... i really like the porch area. like you i plan to foam all walls and roof cutting any energy loss/cost possible during constrution....as energy costs move up....i feel anything spent on conservation will pay off...somethings faster than others granted....but they all we add up to lower monthly costs and allow me to spend more on my "fishin-boatin addiction".
i want to plan solar electric power on the front end of constrution even though the costs are high i have a feelin we have seen the last of cheap fossil fuels....couple the tight insulated construction with all or some of my own power i feel is the way to go. this site is amazing, the knowledge and helpful folks are the way the world should be....you guys have created a monster in me you'll see as i move further to building....i'll ask a zillion questions and look for advice. garry
Garry, I'm sure you'll find, as I have, the people on here are the salt of the earth. I guess I say it too much but, I feel like I know some of them like Glenn and John yet we've never met and probably never will. I know they helped me more than I can ever repay but, I stop in as often as I can to give what little I can to help others like I have been helped.
Maybe we can get together and drown some minnows someday soon.
Okie Bob
I've found the Kyocera KC130's offer excellent bang for the buck. I own 3.
They currently give you 130 watts for $620 a panel.
That breaks down to $4.76 per watt