CountryPlans Forum

My wife and I fell in love with a friend's cabin in Maryland about a year ago.  When we asked about it, our friend explained that the cabin had been built out of a kit from Sears Roebuck's mail order catalog fifty or sixty years ago.  I imagined that I could probably put up something similar and for some reason my wife believed me, and we started looking for land to build on.  After ten months of hunting, we'll be closing on a property in New York just across the Pennsylvania border in two weeks.

The land is 13 acres, entirely wooded except for a few natural clearings, and a stream that runs through it.  Years and years ago it belonged to a Christmas tree farm, so there are even rows of tall pine trees, a few groves of deciduous trees (oak, maple, and elm), and little or no brush.  There's a slight grade - a rise of 50 feet over 690 - but plenty of level spots to build, some of which are already naturally cleared!  We're very excited to start building, as soon as the permits come in, (or maybe even a little earlier!)

(I know Glenn... I was the one who told you to be careful of zoning and building codes, but I have to admit that the view is a little different now that I'm so close to breaking ground!  Surely there's no crime in digging holes in the ground?  Maybe I can just get the piers into place while I wait for approval?)

I took some pictures with my camera phone while we were up.  The New Hampshire cabin post is and has been so detailed and helpful that I'd like to try to do the same; my thread will be helpful in the sense that it will show readers what not to do!

Here are some of the Christmas trees that survived too long to fit in my living-room back in Philadelphia
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_011.jpg)

The stream, at it's lowest ebb of the year.  We're considering (years and years in the future) excavating a pond to be fed by the stream.
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_010.jpg)

More pines
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_009.jpg)

Yet more pines...
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_008.jpg)

Here's our realtor, and the clearing we were considering building in.  We'd have to knock down a few trees, but not many and it's level, so that's a help.
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_007.jpg)

I don't hunt, but my brother in law does and he'll appreciate the game animals up here.  We saw a couple hundred prints like this one, and a lot of rubbings and droppings.  There's a blind built into a tree with a rustic ladder up to it where my brother in law will be hanging out.  We also startled a pheasant off the ground, and ran across a lot of turkey prints.  Thanksgiving dinner!
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_006.jpg)

My wife and our realtor fording the stream.  It's at a low ebb now, but it'll get a lot higher during thaws and rains.  I'm really looking forward to building bridges over it.
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_005.jpg)

Some scrub to clear out.  I always wondered why the president spends so much time clearing brush on the Crawford Ranch; I guess I'll be finding out.
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_004.jpg)

You can really see the line of trees.  I guess it detracts from the wilderness quality of the area, but when you're in them it feels like a scene out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.  Very quiet and spooky.
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_003.jpg)

Are you getting the feeling that there are a lot of pine trees?
(https://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/pericles49/Photo_033008_002.jpg)

Before we send in a finalized plan and project design, we have a few questions for the group:

• We're building the 14x24 Little House with 15 "block piers."  (6 on the sides, and 3 in the middle to support an internal load bearing wall giving support to the loft.)  I'm told the frost depth is about 8", maybe as much as 12".  If I dug down 15" or so, and mix my own concrete, what is the cheapest pier design for me, and what's a ball-park estimate about how much I should be spending?
• I'm also a little bit concerned about the posts.  Could I, consistent with your previous recommendations, use the same sort of simpson bracket and concrete block as ScottA used for his 16x26 Deer Run cabin? (the images are in his posting, or available here http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/121307.JPG (http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/121307.JPG)

Thanks for all the help you all have given me in the past, either in response to my questions, your responses to other people's questions, or the general atmosphere of support that you all have created here, and a special thank you to John Raabe, whose designs are just fantastic, and without which we wouldn't be getting started!

The piers I built cost around $45 each. That includes block, concrete, mortar, anchor bolt and rebar. One thing not show in my posting is the fact that each of my piers has 2 pieces of 1/2" rebar driven 4' deep in the ground at opposing angles to help prevent uplift. The anchor bolt is attached to these rebar inside the pier with tie wires. The pier blocks are poured solid with concrete. I don't feel that a shallow pier alone will keep you on the ground if the wind gets wild enough.

The system John describes in the little house plans has been used successfully. My variation on the little house is planned for concrete though. Just my personal preference. A concrete footing, 16x16x8 inches thick poured in the bottom of the holes, below expected worse frost depth is poured first. John illustrates how to lay the rebar in the footing, but your bldg permit dept will have final say. Here they insisted on a  #  shaped arrangement for something I did a number of years ago.

Concrete piers can be built on top of the footing, fitted with rebar tied to the footing, and the block hollow filled with concrete. You may be able to use 8x8x8 blocks if your bldg dept will allow. That'll save on some concrete.

My little house will be using a total of 10 footings/piers under the main cabin, 2 for a porch extension. The plan calls for thirty inch depth footings with rebar #, piers 4 blocks high with 2 each rebar inserted vertically. The blocks will be dry stacked, held in place with scrap metal and straps, then filled with concrete.

Included in my estimate are: all rebar, Quikrete bagged mix, the 8x8x8 blocks, the anchor bolts, the Simpson 4x6 post bases, rebar wire ties. Using current Home depot pricing, I come up with a projected cost of $309 plus tax of 6.875% = $330

NOT included are the PT wood posts or anything higher up.

Oh, I meant to say... you certainly do have a lot of pines! Looks like you have some work ahead of you. A lot of small diameter stuff that should be removed to open up the trees as well.

Both really great notes; thank you to ScottA and MountainDon, I think with your recommendations in hand I'll be set to start pouring this month.  Also thanks for tree thinning suggestion (my "woodsmanship" knowledge is even worse than my carpentry skills!)

No new pictures for a little while though, I dropped my phone into a cup of hot tea about five minutes after I loaded the pictures for the first post!

Ideally the area immediately surrounding the cabin should be thinned to the point where the tree crowns are no closer than 10 feet to one another. Also the ground should be cleared of the accumulation of dead pine needles. That's an ongoing task. Areas we've cleared have had a variety of short plants take hold. Grasses too.

Most, if not all, of the small diameter trees, we call them trash trees, should be cleared out as well. We drew our "line" at four inches and smaller. Even larger in places. We do have a great wood pile! And don't place the wood pile near the cabin. Ours is about 40+ feet away. That keeps the resident rodents farther away as well.

The dead lower branches of pine, fir and spruce should be trimmed as well. Those are known as ladders. They allow a ground fire to climb up into the upper branches of the larger trees.

You should be able to find local recommendations from the Forest Service or local universities with ag/forest departments. Here in NM the Forest Service will end a forester out to give specific recommendations.

Too bad about the phone.  :(

My wife's from Binghamton. Anywhere near you?

Not far actually, maybe a couple exits away on I81.  Now I know we're in good company!

Nice looking land and trees.  This should be a great project.

I just got off the phone with code enforcement; off the top of his head, the officer told me that the frost depth was "about four feet."  That seems REALLY deep to me, based on the other projects I've been observing on the site; is that a likely estimate, and if so, should we change our foundation plans?

Alternatively, MountainDon, you mentioned that you were only using ten piers, including ones for a deck (which we aren't tackling yet.)  John's plans call for 16 without a deck, and I was considering adding another three for a semi-load bearing beam in the middle just to support the loft in the read, in this sort of arrangement:

X===X===X===X===X===X

X===X===X

X===X===X===X===X===X

Could I cut down on piers a bit, maybe using four on the side beams and two in the middle, or will that not provide enough support?  I know ultimately it's question for code enforcement, but I'd like to walk into my financial ruin with my eyes open.

Well, when you stated a frost depth of 8 to 12 inches I wondered about that.  ??? Here in my NM suburb I'm sure what the actual expected frost depth is, but they make you go 18" deep. For my NM mountain, 40 miles north and another 3300 higher, they told me 30 inches. I may go to 36" and add one block to each pier, just to be sure.

The number of footings and piers can be reduced by increasing the size of the beams. This is also dependant upon your soil type. The soil has to be able to support a more concentrated load. Most places should probably have no problem, but the local authorities would be able to tell you MTL.

For our building sizes piers could be spaced 8 feet apart with a 6x12 beam. Or 6 feet apart with a 2x10 beam. The beams could be built up from 2x material and 1/2" plywood, like the one at the end of THIS LINK (http://www.countryplans.com/builtupbeam.html).

My beams will overhang the end piers by 12" measured at the center of the pier. Spaced 7 feet apart that gives me a 30 foot cabin length, using 2x12's three wide for an effective 6x12.

With 2x10 floor joists and 2x8 ceiling joists the calculations indicate no central beam, no central load bearing wall is required. We're basically planning one big room with the only interior walls being for the small bathroom (toilet/shower). We're using furniture (wardrobe and chest of drawers) as a divider to separate our bed area from the rest of the cabin. It's being built for the 2 of us mainly with a sofa bed for occasional guests. The sofa bed should ensure guests will be occasional, not long term.  :D

Quote from: pericles on April 03, 2008, 12:21:34 PM
I just got off the phone with code enforcement; off the top of his head, the officer told me that the frost depth was "about four feet."  That seems REALLY deep to me, based on the other projects I've been observing on the site; is that a likely estimate, and if so, should we change our foundation plans?

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

Jack,
That 48" depth is pretty close to where you want to dig. I'm in south-central PA (along I-81 too) and around here 42" is somewhat of a standard.  Hope this helps.  Keep us posted !

Thanks PA-Builder, although the news is a bummer!

Mountain Don, your foundation instructions are invaluable.  The reason I have been considering a third beam is that I am not at all confident in my ability to construct PEG's ledger let-in; assuming I used the method from the NH cabin, (loc-tite screws on a ledger without a let-in) I thought I would need a wall underneath the loft around the middle? 

The ledger let ins are not all that difficult to do. If you use 2x6 studs there enough meat in them to do so. If you use 2x6 you could use 24" OC to reduce the #of studs, IF the interior and exterior wall material is amenable to wider spacing.

Laying the studs out of the floor, clamping them in a bunch, and cutting those let ins with a properly set for depth circular saw, is pretty easy. Gives a strong wall and loft support.

How high were you planning the sidewall to be? 8 ft lower floor, plus 2 feet, or?

We're planning to extend the walls a bit MountainDon, probably to 9'.  That would give us an additional two feet of headroom, and make for a comfortable sleeping loft on one side, and a tiny office on the other side of the cat-walk.

Hm.  I'm really tempted to try the let in - everyone who's suggested it has commented on how easy it is... and it would certainly save money over all those jack-studs!  Alternatively, in the plans-help section there's a suggested plan where you use heavy duty screws to secure the ledger to the studs, (no let-in) and then secure the joist to the stud with bolts, resting on top of the ledger - less attractive, but still no interior load-bearing wall.

My wife throws at a local pottery studio though, and she reminds me though that we were planning to mold, fire, and glaze our own custom tiles for the kitchen floor and counters, and the bathroom floor, walls, and shower.  We were assuming that we'd need an additional beam in the center so as to keep the floor from deforming and breaking the tiles if we kept the 14' width.

The let in is very simple and straightforward -- you won't have a problem.  Also strong doing the semi-balloon.  You really don't want a short wall above the loft or second floor.  Spreading problems, etc.

Quote from: pericles on April 04, 2008, 11:04:03 AM. . .  We were assuming that we'd need an additional beam in the center so as to keep the floor from deforming and breaking the tiles if we kept the 14' width. 

If you are using 2x dimension lumber, it may be a challenge to find 14' joists that are straight enough, and when laid with the crown up, will exactly rest on the center beam without shimming/cutting.  I used 2x8-18' ceiling joists that proved to be a real PITA when trying to position on exterior stud walls and interior partition walls. That's probably why a lot of builders use two shorter joists (lapped over the center beam) that will eliminate that potential problem.

Well, let's take a pause for a sec. Johns little house plans, as drawn, does not have knee walls for the loft. In the 14 foot width I don't think there would be a problem. However, if you already have those plans, pericles, you should post that very question in the Plans Support section. John likely will look for new posts there before he might see a question any where else, like here.

Second, as drawn, the 2x8 floor joists over hang the support beams. Using two individual joists from each side, overlapping a central support beam, as suggested above, is probably not a good idea. That's because the overhang is possible only because the joists are continuous. I believe this is not a good idea for the floor joists with beams located as per the plans. A large enough overlap and nailing could work, but you'd be increasing the materials cost unnecessarily I'm sure. I'm not an engineer, so maybe I've overcautious.  :-\ :-\

As the plans are drawn the 2x8 floor joists should not have any problem with a tile floor. Again, you could pose that question under Plan Support. John does support those who purchase his plans. If there was any doubt, the way I look at this, is that there's more cost and labor benefit by increasing joist size to increase floor strength/stiffness than by placing a third central beam along with the required footings and piers. But to be certain you'd have to run a cost analysis.

You're not planning on tiling the loft are you? That would raise a while set of other questions.

One big part of that equation is the cost of digging the holes. By hand that's a big labor cost even if it's your "free" labor. If dug by machine it wouldn't cost much more for a few more holes. Concrete, etc will add up.

So so for what it's worth, my belief is you should clear the use of 2x6 wall framing and let in ledgers for ceiling joists, plus raising the side walls (to form knee walls) with John in Plan Support.

ALSO, and this could greatly influence how this is built, IF you are in a code enforcement area, these questions should also be asked of them. Local rules and rulings over-ride any plan virtually 100%.

I do have the plans for the little house, the additional foot of wall was a modification we were going to try for, something we saw in the NH cabin (actually, I think they have 10' walls.) 

I'd rather use 14' joists than overlapping ones I think.  You're absolutely right about the added cost, and I very much understand your concern about the overhang.  (Although we are considering placing the piers along the edge, just underneath the walls.  It would mean less work for us in terms of constructing the... I'm not sure what they're called... flying buttresses?)  And now that you've suggested that we could tile the floor without breaking the tiles, then there's no need for the third beam anyway, eliminating the PITA PA-Builder cited.

No tiles in the loft, just a bed and end tables on one side, and a little desk and chair on the other.

I have one final question for the group before I sign the contract and we get started clearing brush: will the soil be suitable for building THIS type of foundation?  I ask you guys, (and not local code enforcement) because the code enforcement officer wouldn't give me straight answers; until we submit a plan, he can't OK anything, and we can't submit a plan until we own the property - kind of a catch-22 for the novice builder  ???

Here's the description from the county's GIS portal:

QuoteVoC Volusia channery silt loam (8-15% slopes). This is a deep, somewhat poorly drained, medium textured soil which has a fragipan at 10 to 16 inches. It occupies sloping areas of glacial till in the uplands. This soil is strongly to medium acid. Permeability is moderate in the part above the fragipan and slow in the fragipan. The available water capacity is moderate. Natural fertility is low. This soil is suited to crops, hay, pasture, or woodland. The main problems are an erosion hazard due to steepness of slope and prolonged wetness makes the growing season somewhat shorter. Where cultivated this soil is used or crops in support of dairying.

Thanks for everybody's support.  After this I hope I'll be able to post some progress pics!

Quote from: pericles on April 04, 2008, 05:06:10 PM(Although we are considering placing the piers along the edge, just underneath the walls. 

Just a quick note before I immerse myself in dinner preparation. Back later.  ;D

As soon as you move the beams out, that increases the effective span for each floor joist. The 2x8's will bend, or deflect, more. IF you used Doug Fir Select Structural in place of the #2 that I think the plans call for, you'd be right at the edge of the max allowable span.  :-\

Using 2x10 joists would allow ceramic tile if the beams were moved out under the walls, even using #2.

Check your local availability and pricing before committing one way or another.

Everything's a trade off.  :-\

I didn't know what fragipan was and what I found is... "subsurface soil layers that restrict water flow and root penetration". Sounds similar to what we have here, caliche. Except I think caliche is worse. I ran into a layer when wanting to plant an apple tree. Similar to concrete.  >:(   Caliche is alkaline, fragipan is acidic, so many differences.

In the end though fragipan may make the hole digging more difficult. That's what would make the soil there "somewhat poorly drained" as mentioned on the GIS site.

I went down to the county building department before we bought the mountain land. They did take the time to answer my questions about frost depth, how large the footing should be for the mountain soil and so on. Maybe it was because I was there in person? I dunno. I never tried the phone at all.  :-\

So is the soil suitable? Probably. But the building code guy ought to be able to tell you or tell you if you need to have your specific soil tested.

QuoteIt would mean less work for us in terms of constructing the... I'm not sure what they're called... flying buttresses?)

No buttresses, flying or not, here. You probably mean the bracing from the posts to joists as shown on several of the Little House plan sheets.  ??? Those are not difficult to make. They are not precision cut lumber that fit precisely into the structure. They are nailed, lag screwed or bolted in an overlap fashion.

There are lots of ways to skin every cat.  :o

Quote from: MountainDon on April 04, 2008, 04:08:19 PM
. . . Using two individual joists from each side, overlapping a central support beam, as suggested above, is probably not a good idea. . .

Don,
I must not have made myself clear above. I was not recommending overlapping floor joists in Pericle's design; but simply pointing out a problem that he may face if he were to add a center beam, and then try to get all joists to rest evenly on the three beams.  As you suggested, I would also increase the joist size (from a 2x8 to a 2x10) if there was a potential deflection issue.  Sorry for the confusion.

Sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees, or vice versa.  d* d*

What you said makes perfect sense now.  ::)

Thanks

 what are you doing for power and water ?

To begin with, we're bringing water up in 5 gallon jugs and storing them at the site.  There's also a quick flowing stream on the property, so after testing it for acids, particulates, or contaminates, we might use that to mix concrete (instead of water brought from off-site.)  We're also purchasing a generator to run our tools and to keep for a backup.  There's a link to one that comes highly recommended for our fairly limited needs here:
http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm (http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm). 
While building and for a while afterwards we plan to use an outdoors grill (because what's the point of having a cabin if you can't grill steaks?) and a camping stove.  Also while building and for a while afterwards we'd plan to use a composting toilet from Envirolet and a Zodi-Shower.  Less finicky builders have used out-houses and camping showers I know, but we're still newlyweds and I just don't want to get to know my wife that well yet.

Next summer, after throwing up the framing, we're going to install a wood-stove for heat and cooking.  We are also planning to use solar panels for electricity.  There are a number of solar panel kits that you can buy, many of which are expandable (i.e. you can add additional panels or batteries at a later date) that start at about $700.  Alternatively, there is electric at the road, and we could decide to hook up to that.  Remember, we plan to be around on weekends, not full time, so there's plenty of time for the batteries to charge while we're away.

Also next summer, or maybe two years from now, we'd like to drill a well and install a septic tank.  Wells in the area frequently are just 100' deep, so it hopefully won't cost a fortune, especially if gasoline prices calm down.  The area we're building in has pretty strict requirements about septic tanks, so we might end up spending as much as $15k for both, but I'm hopeful that there is a smaller septic system we can install, given our intended very limited use.

Quote from: pericles on April 05, 2008, 01:58:29 PM
We're also purchasing a generator to run our tools and to keep for a backup.  There's a link to one that comes highly recommended for our fairly limited needs here:
http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm (http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm). 

If you haven't got that already do a careful appraisal of what tools you may want to use. Tools with motors can take a larger surge to get going than the nameplate rated current. That's a very attractive price.

Another little note that may or may not be of concern... every 1000 feet of altitude above sea level results in approximately a 3% loss in power. That goes for any gas or diesel powered machine, unless super/turbo-charged. Everything that burns fuel is rated at sea level as a general rule of thumb.

Watch kits on solar stuff.  Prices sometimes are outrageous.

Cost per watt currently should be about $5 or less plus controllers - etc.

at my camp ( the nh cabin) we use the honda eu300 generator and its the best one out there ( in our opinion) it cost $1800. but it so quiet you can barley hear it,it has a built in 12v charger so it charges while it running plus its a honda so it last forever and i dont know what kind of power tools your using, we have a small crafsman compressor and the startup draw almost kills it so becare full what your tools draw. and to mix our concrete we also pumped from our brook with a small pump.

here is a link for amount of power you might need  http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/genwat.asp
i look foward to seeing your progress thanks

Yep. I love those inverter generators. I have a Yamaha. I like the way they throttle up and down depending on load. Our Yamaha has no trouble starting a Porter Cable pancake compressor or the 13.5K BTU RV A/C and that's at 8800 ft. Not both at the same time mind you.

I got this one from Mikey B for my prospecting -- start first pull and is actually a Mitsubishi engine in a B & S Generator -- cast iron sleeve and will start to 3000 watts.  Quiet also.

http://www.everygenerator.com/Briggs-and-Stratton-030239-BAS1001.html
(http://common.csnstores.com/common/products/BAS/BAS1001_m.jpg)

Cost is definitely a factor for us, so I think that $1800 is going to be a little out of our league for temporary power, although I appreciate all the suggestions and notes, and had no idea that I would lose power as we gained altitude.  Is that because the density of oxygen decreases, slowing combustion?  I did the initial calculations, and I believe the generator we have in mind is capable of powering AND starting any two of our power tools, but with all of your suggestions in mind I will go back and double check - electricity was never my forte, so I'm sure I've confused Amps, Ohms, and Volts.

Bobbie and I signed the final contract on the land yesterday, and sent along an earnest money check.  Closing date is still set for April 18th, and it looks like as an added expense we're going to need a NY lawyer present for the closing.  It's not a huge fee, in the $600 range, but it's still just plain robbery.  We'd like to start clearing land then, if we go up for the closing, in which case I'll post pictures of the cleared area and our stakes.  The building department claims they can turn around our plans in a week, so hopefully we'll have piers in not too long after that!

Quote from: pericles on April 08, 2008, 07:08:36 AM
Is that because the density of oxygen decreases, slowing combustion? 

The building department claims they can turn around our plans in a week, so hopefully we'll have piers in not too long after that!

The air is less dense so there's less oxygen available, therefore less power. Same happens to our relatives when they come from lower elevations (100 - 750 feet) to visit in NM. (5400 around the suburban home and 8800 in our mountains.)  ;D

That's good turn around time on the building dept.

Sorry for the long absence.  The closing was originally scheduled for April 18, but the seller's attorney dropped off the face of the map and we were delayed for three weeks while he looked for new representation.  After that there was another hold-up about the subdivision procedure.  Finally finally we are proceeding to closing this Friday (we hope) and will camp over the weekend to build an outhouse, rough in a driveway, and generally enjoy the first land we've ever owned.

I'll have pictures on Sunday, but in advance of the start of construction, I had a few more questions for the group:

(1)     I noted that the New York building code had an exemption for barns and sheds.  I'd like to get out from under the thumb of the code enforcement office – does anyone have experience building in New York State?  Can you give me suggestions?

(2)     I'm still having trouble with my "flying buttresses" (the bracing that runs from the PT posts to the floor framing).  How does the wood need to be cut?  Is there a good diagram for that somewhere?

(3)     I understand the process when the deck framing is attached directly to the PT posts, but when the deck framing sits in top of the 6x6 beams called for in the Little House plans, what is the connection that holds the frame and floor joists to the 6x6 beams?  Again, is there a diagram?

Thanks!

In general on the bracing - 45 both ends and make it fit from the bottom of the post to the joist or rim joist or beam as the case may be.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1717.msg20480#msg20480

I think AC6Z Simpson is what you are looking for -post to beam for 6x6

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/053c-2008.gif)

I'd toe nail the joist down but there is a Simpson tie strap or maybe hurricane tie that would work also.

(http://www.strongtie.com/graphics/products/large/155a-2008.gif)

Also see John's comment- http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4113.msg58752#msg58752

The NEW headache: planning/zoning/code enforcement.

If I want to build a barn or shed, I need to get a variance from the planning board, because they are "ancillary" buildings, and must have a dwelling on the property to be ancillary to.  On the other hand if I classify the building as a "dwelling" I need to hook up septic and a well within a year - something that would stretch our budget too far. 

This is my first foray into do-it-yourself carpentry, but I'm a lawyer in "real life" so maybe I can make this work.  If not, we're going to scale down the plans in order to meet the 144 sq ft loophole and build two or three 10x14s with great big porches.  That'll be nice too, give the place sort of a "compound" feel...

Thanks Glenn for the good advice on bracing/brackets.  I think I will follow-suit and toe-nail the joists unless I can get a good deal on the hurricane ties.

Wish us luck at the closing/clearing!  We're hosting a party of 10 tree-hugging graduate students next 4th of July for a camp out and BBQ, so it's a real sine qua non to get the outhouse dug in time.

-Jack

Come on, Jack.  Take on the system.  All this ex-post facto law has to be illegal.  Check back to the original grant from the state and you should find through chain of title that the county has no interest in the land and in order to stop you they need to purchase it. 
 
I know -- that's not the way it works -- we pretend they have authority over us then when we sign the building permit contract with them we give them jurisdiction over us.  We are stupid, eh?  Tear them up, please, Jack.  hmm :)

You know, I'd suggest you try to contact one of the instructors over at www.loghomebuilders.org  They aren't in NY, but are very familiar with codes and permits, as well as the legal in's and outs...I think both of the current ones are/were lawyers as well.  Or you could just post on the forums there.  The two groups of posters are VERY like-minded.  Your property doesn't happen to be back in the woods without direct views from the road, does it?  If you take certain precautions (being out-of-sight from off the property, fences, constitutional keep-out signs, etc...doesn't work with every property) apparently they cannot get a warrant for code violations.  There are also ways to get electric on-site without opening up the whole can of worms.  Of course, they always *suggest* building to code and with permitting.  ;)

I'm so glad I live where a permit takes two-three pages, $250, and can be approved while you wait!  Of course, the septic part (about all they care about here) will be a pain, but nothing comparatively, I'd imagine.

So your land looks appropriate (seeing the first page with all the pictures of trees), but you'd probably do better getting all the ins and outs from others on the forum I posted above...I don't remember all of it because much of it doesn't apply to me building here.

Best of luck!  I HATE the "government knows better" mentality.  Whatever happened to survival of the fittest?  :)

I'm with you, Catherine.

So the plans are temporarily on hold.  We were defeated the first weekend up by rain and scary animals walking through our camp site. . . we tried to dig a hole for an outhouse, but discovered more monster-sized rocks than you'd imagine.  Then, we learned that carrying wood 600 ft to the back of the property is NOT AWESOME.  Finally, we discovered that our circular saw was NOT up to the task of 2" dimensional lumber. 

We went back, and I built an awesome firepit. . . and subsequently learned that shale explodes when heated.  My wife was displeased when she took shrapnel during a camping trip.

We got admittedly discouraged, but are now semi-back on track. . . a local company is leasing the mineral rights to our land and putting a natural gas well on the property.  It's paying back most of our education loans, our modest mortgage on the property itself, and enough extra to pay for new tools, and professionals to do some of the prep-work: driveway, well, septic.  Then, this fall or next summer, we can come back and get started on the fun part.

More to come as the situation develops.

Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations. It's especially disheartening when the campfire drops incoming on you.  :(


We'll be looking forward to progress as things permit. We've been through several delays ourselves.

I take a little encouragement from this post - not that I don't feel for you , but every time I try to do one thing I have to do six others in preparation for that thing and I generally break a machine of one sort or another doing it ---( main drive chain is now back in the guts of the Bobcat - and my renter just earned half of his rent doing it.) d*

I'm jumping into this a bit late, but in regards to the requirement of installing water and septic within one year of building a dwelling.  Do you have an idea of how the county "remembers" to check back in a year to make sure the well and septic are installed?  It could be quite likely that they forget about the property after the inspections are done and they are collecting taxes.  Also, is that within a year of start or completion of the cabin?  Completion could take decades. ;)

They are pretty lax about it here - I mentioned finishing to the health inspector once here and he said - aw - no big deal -- as long as it gets done.  Depends.

I tried to send you a more detailed email. I guess the villanova one is no longer working. I will post some of it for critique. 
First the Joists. Do not use 2x lumber.  Drive around Philadelphia and look at any house going up.  I have not found one that uses 2x lumber for the joists.  Go with I-Joists.  The money and aggravation you will save will make up for their higher costs. Remember, they can be any length and can carry twice the load as 2x lumber.  You can space them twice as far apart and use half the joists.  Also their extra height can be used for extra insulation.  You also do not have to worry about having the extra foundation.  They are also straighter and you do not have to worry about the crown.  They also use "scrap" lumber for their construction and are more environmentally friendly.  There is a good web page by Ace Hardware with the specs and pricing for this. A good book is "Framing for pros by pros"  It can be found at any Home Depot but is also at the central library in Philadelphia. 

My next topic I wanted to offer suggestions on was the well and septic.    In new construction always put the Septic System in first, the well in second.  From your post you may be sitting on a giant shale pit.  Good luck getting approved.  It may be difficult to find a site.  It would be a real shame if the the only site they found was were your house was sitting or too close to your house or well.  Remember you have a stream on your property too with lots of trees.  These are all complications to a septic system.  A lot of good information is on the  www.inspect-ny.com website.  I am not planning on a septic system for my cabin.  I expect to use a composting/ grey water system.  Remember codes are first to protect people from themselves, second to protect people from each other.  Your Realtor either didn't know what he was talking about or wanted to sell you a load of crap to make the sale.  Code enforcement has been going up in all of those counties because of environmental concerns.  The two codes I am hearing most about in enforcement are Insulation and Septic. 

I guess I will continue posting until somebody tells me to shut up.  Judging by the GIS portal information you gave, you are probably in Broome County.  They are the only county I know of around there that has that much information for free on their portal.  Please let me know if I am wrong.  I have searched many realtors sites for cabins with decent land in that area.  I have found many illegal ones built that aren't even close to code in other counties but none in Broome.  This leads me to believe they are more strict in enforcement.  But if you are out towards Windsor or Deposit you may not run into the same problems than if you were in bingampton if your neighbors don't complain.  Remember you need a well drilled by a certified well driller to get a certificate of occupancy in New York as of this year.  I guess this also goes with my last post about the septic.

Quote from: Squirl on August 26, 2008, 01:01:52 PM
First the Joists. Do not use 2x lumber. 

w*

That's an opinion. Mine is that for something as narrow, as simple, as a 14 ft wide there is no advantage to going to manufactured joists. For my 16 wide I ordered 2x10 from the yard. I ordered two extras. They delivered. I ended up with one that was crowned significantly more than the others, but most were near beautiful. I used the crowned one as blocking. THe extras will be used in the construction of the battery box.

As for their extra height, that could be a benefit, but also detrimental. That means you need to use the manufacturers rim joist material as well as the manufactured items are not sized the same as dimensional lumber.

As for placing manufactured joists twice as far apart; that has a lot to do with what the subflooring is going to be. 2X at 16" OC does not translate into manufactured joists at 32" OC. Maybe 24.

Manufactured joists have their place, but I feel that small owner built building doesn't require them. OMMV. For structures that are thrown up by a hired work crew the use of manufactured items often saves on on-site labor. That drives the selection of many building materials used by contractors.

As for the manufactured joists being "greener", I'm not sure about that when the total picture, chemicals in the adhesives, etc. are taken into account. Maybe, but that's a topic for discussion.