...that is what someone told me today at a lumberyard. I was getting a material list together for a bid on my materials and as we were going over the list, he noticed I had Tyveck/tar paper.
He mentioned than Tyveck would cost more but would last longer. He mentioned tht if the tar paper gets wet, it would break down.
Is this true?
I tried doing a search because I know we have talked about this before, but I just could not find it.
Exactly false--- tyvek with dirt or surfactants can fail - tarpaper will still work.
Many 5 year or less old houses with tyvek fail if they are in problem areas - sometimes whole subdivisions. Tarpaper does not seem to have the problem.
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html
From the above article:
Quote"As it happens, I have felt paper on my own home, and if I could choose between felt and housewrap and do it over again, I'd still choose felt. That's because I believe that under certain circumstances, felt outperforms housewrap."
What a pinhead! I'm sure that Tyvek will last a good long time....whatever it is...see it all over, never touched it.
Lasting is not the issue. Performance is the issue. For those who have to have this stuff....might be worthwhile to use Stucco Wrap instead of House Wrap. Has some sort of drainage plane built into it. Do they use it here in the Land-of-Stucco? Nope. My guess is that it costs a little more.
And, the quote that Glenn posted...it's by the author of the wrap comparison article. What a hoot!
John it could be the guy meant how long will you be counting on the tar paper, before you cover it with siding .
The good thing , well one of , about typar is it is tough you can put it up and protect the building for a couple of months and it will hold up to wind and rain.
Tar paper should be covered pretty quickly or it will be blown off/ torn overly weathered.
I do like tar paper we don't use it often because people want to see the wrap stuff, it goes on quick , and it is tough.
The jury is still out some what , as all factors have to be considered, and a decission made.
So if your going to be able to side over what you paper in each weekend , if it's a weekend build , atr paper would be my #1 choice.,
If say your going to want to paper the whole place and spend the summer inside , so you need some weatherproofing , typar might be the way to go.
So as I often say, it depends :( on other factors . Sorry Glenn ;)
Good luck , PEG
Tyveck has one advantage over the tar paper i feel is a big plus. It allows moisture to leave the house were tar people would hold it in. Plus it's easier to put up and in less time.
My 2 cents
Kevin
Felt is still slightly permiable and another article also says it outperforms wraps especially when they get contaminated along with sealing holes better.
QuoteDISADVANTAGES of wraps
Slightly more in initial cost than building felt. Availability of some products may be limited. Inferior performance as a weather barrier compared with building felt. Nail penetrations in housewrap are not self-sealing, as they tend to be in felts. Housewraps are not selective vapor permeable membranes: moisture vapor will pass through in both directions. As water-absorptive siding materials such as wood and brick veneer dry, moisture in vapor form can be forced through housewrap into sheathing and insulation. Less vapor-permeable building felt can better withstand reverse vapor migration.
Some recent studies appear to indicate that surfactants, a class of substances found in wood, stucco, soap and detergents, can decrease the natural surface tension of water and allow it to pass through housewraps wetting the underlying materials. According to anectdotal field observations, this process is most likely to occur in regions with heavy rainfall and when unprimed wood siding is placed in direct contact with the housewrap.
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10362.shtml
I am going with the tyvek house wrap. I bought a 9 ft x 150 ft roll, a bucket of 3000 buttoncaps, and a roll of sealing tape. I will let you guys know in 5 or 6 years how it worked out!
(http://i1.tinypic.com/ofmu79.jpg)
I used tyvek on my shop. It was very easy, but wow, it is extremely loud.... Sounds like the loudest crinkling paper you have ever heard.
It looks like Tyveck wins 3-2 with 1 "not sure" vote from Shelly.
Seems to be one of those unanswered questions! Just like you say tomatoe and I say tomatoe (just doesn't have the same meaning on the internet I guess!))
Well, if you're having a poll, I'll even things up...
I plan to use tar paper, maybe 30lb. This is in an area of heay rainfall on an exposed windy location. On top of the felt will be furring strips for an airspace and then the siding... not sure what kind yet. If felt is good enough for the roof, it should be good enough for the walls.
Great point about the roof!! I don't see anybody putting Tyveck on under their roof shingles!
http://www.slate.uk.com/Membrane.htm
http://www.slate.uk.com/Tyvek.htm
Pitched roofs are commonly identified as cold if they incorporate thermal insulation at ceiling level, leaving a cold loft, or as warm if they incorporate thermal insulation at the rafter line.
DuPont Tyvek® membranes are suitable for use in all forms of pitched roof and may be used in new-build, refurbishment and retro-fit projects. They protect the building fabric against rain, snow and wind and the risk of damaging condensation: they also help to achieve significant gains in energy efficiency, the size of those gains will be determined by how you choose to install the Tyvek® membranes.
Click on the cold & warm links below for details of :-
Non-ventilated roofs cold warm
Roofs with no provision for airflow beneath the underlay will be more energy efficient than conventional, ventilated roofs.
Sealed roofs cold warm
Roofs with no airflow beneath the underlay and with all air leakage paths sealed will be even more energy efficient than non-ventilated roofs and they allow fuller use of the building volume.
Other roofs warm
Tyvek® membranes can also be used in industrial roofs and in loft conversions.
We use house wrap from 84 lumber and had no problems with it until....
There is a gas well on the property above ours and the company brought in a rig to do some work on it. It through all kinds of oil all over our cabin on the side the well is on. Everywhere the oil hit we got a hole in the wrap, it just started shredding.>:( We took it down rewrapped and it was fine after.
6-2 Tyveck...starting to look like a run-a-way win!
I vote for 30# felt all over the place. Roof, sidewalls, skirting @ house under river rock, whereever.
http://www.weatherization.com/dcforum/Weatherization/21.html#0
Testing involving Tyvek (http://www.buildingphysics.umn.edu/CTteardown01/TestSectionDescPhotos.htm)
Conclusions on above tests (http://www.buildingphysics.umn.edu/CTteardown01/DiscConc.htm)
Good find Glenn.
It looks like I need to return to Lowes and see what the perm rating is on the tyvek I bought.
Tyvek Housewrap problems"
Posted by Michael Cade on 00:11:40 11/01/102
Include Original
Message on Reply
Approximately 12 years ago my wife and I built our home in the East Texas Piney Woods. The house was built with wood framing construction, sheathing, Tyvek house wrap and covered with Vinyl Siding. Recently we began a remodeling phase to nearly double the size of this two story home. When I began to remove some of the vinyl siding for the addition I found the Tyvek was completely decomposed. It had split, cracked tore and now after 12 years has the consistency of newspaper or less. I have done some research and found little if anything on this issue. I have contacted Dupont and they have offered to replace the Tyvek, but my big concern now is that the original structure has no exterior vapor barrier at all. A rep. from Tyvek told me he thought during the period of our construction there might have been a malfunction in the process of making the Tyvek, but those issues have all been corrected. My questions
1. Should I NOW use Tyvek on the new addition.
2. Should I remove the old siding and rewrap the original structure with the Tyvek provided by Dupont.
3. Who should bear the cost of that process.
I am in the middle of framing the addition and need to make some decisions soon. East Texas is extremely humid year round and lots of rain.
1. "Re: Tyvek housewrap problems"
Posted by Rusty Rhodes on 13:20:10 8/26/104
Include Original
Message on Reply
No, absolutely not. Tyvek has too high of a perm rating (breathability) for hot humid climates. There are numerous wraps that have low perm ratings that are much better suited for your climate.
A few are as follows:
1. Pactiv Green Gaurd
2. Dow Sytrofoam Weathermate and Weathermate Plus (the Plus is very expensive!)
3. Barricade, R-Wrap Xtra, and WeatherTrek, all made by Ludlow Coated Products.
4. The Lowe's brand housewrap that they stock is made by Pactiv and I believe has a 15 perm rating which is fine.
The best perm rating for your area is between 5-15. The Tyvek is 58!
To me it seems a bit of a waste to spend so much money on a questionable product promoted by industry push and advertising that may or may not ruin your house in less than 5 years when felt is cheap and has been proven over decades. Maybe not quite as tight a seal but maybe that is why it works and has a good record. It is also not affected by surfactants -which can come from dirt, oil, the wood itself, or other things. Felt seems to be the choice of people who do these studies. Ultimately it is up to you. For me I choose felt.
A kind of a non-opinion here - http://www.buildernewsmag.com/viewnews.pl?id=21
What is the linear feet in an average roll of felt?
I know you overlap the felt as you go up the wall, can a run of felt be overlapped at the end of a roll to start a new roll? If so how is this done?
Going from memory 3 feet wide -2 squares (200 sq ft) on 30# 68 feet or so? - 4 squares on 15# -same size roll -1/2 as thick - twice as long.
Use the same nails you pictured with the plastic caps- roofing nails and staples are also commonly used - the felt is fairly self sealing but these little punctures are not usually the source of problems - just nail off the end at a wood member - lap back so water will go down as it wants to without getting behind much. I like PEG's saying -- think like water. Start at the bottom -next layer should shed water over the layer below - like shingles do, so water runs out- not in.
My reasons for choosing felt:
- The wider rolls of housewrap make it harder to handle in the wind (tends to be gusty where my place is going).
- The big advantage of housewrap is that it is a better air barrier, but I will be using SIPs so there will already be a good air barrier built in.
- Might use cedar shingles and had read about the incompatibility of cedar and wrap.
- Just more convenient to use the same stuff for roof and walls... one less thing to price and order... and there will likely be less combined left-overs at the end.
For most situations, I think either would do an adequate job. But you should look through the links Glenn posted and see if any of the special conditions mentioned apply to you.
Really good article Glenn! Answers alot of questions and explains things well.
I don't really care if someone is really convinced by the advertising and thinks they must have this partly proven cutting edge product then go for it. It may not have a problem but when it does the seriousness of the problem is so bad that in some of the stories I read people were just having the fire department burn their house to the ground --- even some that cost $400,000.00.
I'd really hate to see any of our members have a problem like that after all they have done, studied and learned to make their own house.
If you seal a house up so tight it has moisture problems and you have to open a window to close a door, then what is the matter with using felt and having the moisture find its way out a little bit easier -- it seems the energy savings are counteracted when you have to burn down the house in 5 years. :-/
Just my 4 cents --I had to put it in at least twice. :)
Another thing --here I go again --- if per the manufacturer you didn't do this right -or you didn't do that right or you didn't do the other thing right every time one of these houses fails, then it seems you must need a masters degree in Tyvekology to get it right. I don't think any of us have that and even if we did and the house failed something else we missed would have went wrong and they would offer to replace the product-
If it is so critical that even professionals fail, then why are we trying to use it - where is the leeway?? How about an old proven product with a little forgiveness. :) Many of us have thousands in hard earned cash in these things -
What was that saying --fool me once -uh --uh ----ya can't get fooled again. :)
Note that the perm ratings advertised are only on new clean material - dirt, soap, wood oils. any of a million surfactants could void that rating and make the product usless.
Don't forget that the screen wall helps also if you can work that into your design, - a space behind the siding to provide an additional drainage plane.
Note that a roofer in the lumber yard told my wife to use 30# - not mess with 15# although I have seen a lot of articles using it and I am using 15# in less critical places.
Time is money to contractors --- rush --rush --rush --- slower and less product output means less and slower cash flow. Housewrap is fast. McDonalds is fast.
Here is some information for those who want to use Tyvek:
Q. At some point, I read that Tyvek house wrap should not be used directly under cedar shingle siding. Is this true? In the thread, it mentioned that Dupont knew this was a problem and invalidates the Tyvek warranty in this application. I am in the process of adding 1k sq ft to my house and we are putting up red cedar siding. I would like to get clarification before I go to him with my concerns. What are the facts that you all have about this problem, and if it's true about Tyvek, where can I find a copy of the Tyvek warranty that states this invalidation of the warranty. Its not too late to put up tar paper, if that is what is called for?
A. Tyvek can be used under any cladding including brick, stucco, vinyl, cedar siding, and stone. Proper installation under each cladding is essential to ensure Tyvek provides the maximum level of air infiltration resistance and bulk water holdout. Major concerns are the proper installation and flashing. Any manufacturer's warranty will be voided if installation and usage instructions are not followed. It is recommended that the cedar siding be installed per manufacturer's guidelines and recommendations by wood siding associations, such as the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association, including priming all surfaces including the back and ends before installing. Additionally, the use of furring strips will help promote drainage of any incidental water that may penetrate the cedar cladding.
From:
http://doityourself.com/lumber/qnaexterior1.htm
Note that the furring strips make it into a rain screen wall giving a secondary drainage plane as mentioned above.
READ THIS ONE _VERY GOOD _EASY TO UNDERSTAND-- excuse me ---I got all excited. :-/
http://fourseasonsroofingandsiding.com/Phantom.Siding.Leaks.htm
I built a house in 1990 and used Tyvek House wrap. Eight years later during a repair we noticed moisture signs at the lower portion of a wooden chase. Water had penetrated through some flashing above and worked its way inside the chase. We pealed off the siding to find the sheathing saturated. There were actually pockets of water held in by the Tyvek and rotted the sheathing.
This year we began remodeling this house that required removal of some of the same siding to tie in a roof over a covered deck to solve the issues** that caused and continued to cause the water damage in the first place. I expected to see more water damage. Dry as a bone. Some staining on the siding but everything else looked as good as the day we put it on. The difference was we used 15# tar paper on the repair 7 years ago. The moisture had penetrated again, but was not held against the building.
**Leaves, needles and cones from nearby trees would dam the valley near the chase and water would work its way beyond the flashing.
Thanks so much for relating your experience, Whit. I have read quite a few cases where the Tyvek was OK until liquid water gets to the inside then it won't go out- only th vapor will. Condensation inside the Tyvek also can cause liquid water.
Testing simulating nailing - and other info - interesting results and information.
Scientific Testing of Housewraps and Felt (http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/leaky_housewraps.html)
My parents used felt in conjunction with 1" external foam (on 2x4 walls) for the house they built 20 yrs ago. The place is extremely easy to heat/cool and there haven't been any moisture problems.
I was about to buy some Tyvek (b/c I just assumed that's what you do nowadays), but now, thanks to Glenn's posts, I'm rethinking the felt with 1" foam. It seems to me this strikes a good balance b/w felt alone and tyvek alone (especially with the drainage plane mentioned earlier). Also, the idea of super airtight house makes me a little nervous as far as indoor air quality is concerned.
Demian
I think the felt with the foam and screenwall may be a good move as in my research I found a whole housing project with foam that had problems similar to housewraps. A lot of it may have to do with thinking housewrap is a cure all and not paying attention to flashing properly- etc. but as one article mentioned felt is dynamic - as it gets wetter it removes more water through wicking -then when it dries it goes back to being more impermiable.
I want to stress that in all cases where the author of the article is familiar with the screen wall drainage plane he recommends it - I think the screen wall is the number one improvment you could make no matter which housewrap or felt you use. If the water gets to the backside of the siding and can drain uninterupted back to the outside, it won't go in- let it hit your housewrap - it transfers to it then through any opening to the inside of the house. Like PEG says, "Think like water."
He also says "Depends"- but I didn't feel that was appropriate right now.
Quote
Another thing --here I go again --- if per the manufacturer you didn't do this right -or you didn't do that right or you didn't do the other thing right every time one of these houses fails, then it seems you must need a masters degree in Tyvekology to get it right. I don't think any of us have that and even if we did and the house failed something else we missed would have went wrong and they would offer to replace the product-
If it is so critical that even professionals fail, then why are we trying to use it - where is the leeway?? How about an old proven product with a little forgiveness. :) Many of us have thousands in hard earned cash in these things -
What was that saying --fool me once -uh --uh ----ya can't get fooled again. :)
Lately, DH and I have thought about this a lot .....Tyvek?....Tarpaper (felt)?
After many discussions with builders in our area and reading articles about the 2 products we have decided to go with 30 # felt.
We have been watching the construction of new homes in our area and to our surprise about half or more do not use anything as a wrap :-/ ...........the others use Tyvek...........not seen any tarpaper.
The other day I watched as masons were applying stone over the entire exterior of a new home and they were not using any wrap.
So, DH asked a couple of builders the why and why nots of wraping.
He got a different answer from each builder.
Sometimes it 's wise to go with a "gut feeling" of what is right for your own situation so we're going with felt.
We will probably be the talk of the community when we start wrapping .
I can see the looks and hear the questions now :-?
The current issue of Fine Homebuilding (Feb/March) has a detailed article on housewraps. I haven't picked it up yet, but plan on doing so.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/fh_177_066.asp
Demian
The scientist they are talking about to get you to buy their magazine is the same one who wrote the 2 articles I posted previously.
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/leaky_housewraps.html
That "Scientist" (Paul Fissette) was my professor for Building Materials and Wood Technology class at UMass. He is the real deal...a very knowledgeable guy.
Wow - small world. :)
What I noticed about his work is that everything he did made sense after he explained his results.
Does anyone have a link that shows the proper way to apply tar paper. I am interested in how it is cut out for the windows and doors.
Jimmy, I used tar paper and it's very simple to apply.
Just start on the bottom at one corner and run the first row all the way to the end of that side. Overlap the nex row by about 6" and continue up to the top of that wall. Then go back and use a knife and cut out the window and door openings. You use a galvanized 'roofing' nail that come with a plastic 'washer' for lack of a better term. You can start anywhere really and if you want, run the first row all the way around the house and overlap where you started. Simple, can't get any easier. I like it, I prefer it and plan to use it on my next building profect as well. I don't have anything against Tyveck, just prefer tarpaper and use 30# vs 15# is it is much stronger. Hope that helps.
Okie Bob
Other than the extra labor and cost required (both minimal due to the small size of my house), what are the disadvantages of using both, i.e., tar paper underneath Tyvek? Wouldn't the tar paper serve as an extra layer of protection if the Tyvek broke down as well as wickng water away from the wood to the tar paper exterior where it would be slowly transferred through the Tyvek as a vapor? If so, it would seem the extra few hours and few hundred dollars would be worth the extra protection from rot. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Demian
Demian,
I quit reading the articles except in a cursory way when I decided that it wasn't for me.....but I think that what you just said is exactly the problem with the stuff....and someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Think the problems that they've had is that Tyvek is actually a wind barrier, an air leak barrier. Water gets behind it and can't transfer. Vapor barrier on the inside, tyvek doesn't breath and the moisture just stays there rusting nails and rotting wood.
And, there are probably house wraps that will allow moisture to transfer. Just not Tyvek House Wrap. The air leak thing can be taken care of in other ways...even if you're using batt insulation. In certain circles, I'm know as the Queen of Caulk. ;D Production builders can't afford the time to button up a house, so they use Tyvek. Like I said earlier, some of this new fangled stuff is not necessarily better, it's just faster.
I have to agree with Shelley -
Unfortunately I'm out selling my body for money again, so am on dial up----it's driving me crazy.
I picked up the issue of FH and other than quoting Paul Fissette and his preference for felt, the gist of the article author's opinion was:
1) Don't use perforated housewraps (some of the really cheap housewraps just have small holes punched in them rather than the Gore-tex like pores in Tyvek).
2) Tyvek is one of the best choices, but felt is also very good. He prefers Tyvek due to speed of installation (roll sizes, etc).
3) Whatever you use, make sure you get detailed directions and install it properly (poorly installed housewarp is worse than no housewrap at all).
4) There's also a description of some interesting sheeting products that form a rainscreen.
Overall, I'd take the article as an endorsement of felt as being on par with Tyvek if installation efficiency isn't your top concern (although I'm not sure how felt installation would take longer than Tyvek).
Demian
Quote.
(although I'm not sure how felt installation would take longer than Tyvek).
Demian
Tarpaper is 3' wide , Typar / Tyvek /other wraps are 9' wide,,,, [highlight]generally[/highlight] ,,,,,, 3' wide rolls are readly avaible as well . But the reference to speed is addressing the width factor , IMO.
For what it's worth, it would , DEPEND, on the use , either will work ( tarpaper or a building wrap), the wraps will weather better IF your going to be slow in covering the walls , Tyvek or Typar, I perfer Typar for 2 main reasons .
#1 It is tougher , better with UV degrading , less likely to rip. I have used both products for many years . This is my "field testing " that I'm addressing.
#2 It is easier on your eyes , Gray color . Tyvek is snow white , applying it on a sunny day and you'll also perfer Typar.
[highlight]On my own house I'd use tarpaper,[/highlight] and I'd cover it quickly. If I couldn't cover it quickly I'd use Typar [highlight]but in cridical areas, high exposure ,I'd use 30 # felt.[/highlight] PEG.
"Back in the day" prior to nailing inspections we used to put Tyvek on the wall before we tipped it up. Now that was fast and could be put on perfectly flat and clean looking job.
These days with nailing/strap/sheer inspections required the sider usually installs the housewrap/felt and most (that I work with anyway) would rather NOT work with a 9' roll working off of planks, ladders and around the windows and doors installed by the framers.
I ended up using 10' rolls of Tyvek with button cap nails. Due to the height of my house (about 40' to the roof peak on the walkout side) and the slope of the land around it, I see what people meant by the importance of ease of installation. Twice around the house with relatively light rolls requiring more than enough sketchy ladder work. Eight time around using 3', but still heavy, rolls of felt would have been incredibly difficult. Based on my experience, I'd recommend large rolls of housewrap for using on a difficult site. However, I can see how felt might be the better option on flat site with a 1 story or 1.5 story house.
Demian
Are you using a screen wall of some sort with the house wrap - ie: spacers between the siding and the housewrap, Demian? It would improve your chances of water drainage behind the siding without setting up problem areas. If I recall, John said 3/8" was enough. Many do without with no problem--some have problems.
Glenn, thanks to the good advice here, I am using 1x3 furring (more like 5/8" by 2") strips in the Wall 1 configuration shown in the article below.
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/Guide_to_Insulation_Sheathing.pdf
Good plan. That makes me feel better. I have noticed how it works as part of my shop tool room has a clear plastic vapor barrier behind clapboard siding. What ever water gets behind even my low quality clapboards drains right out. Clapboards are a good kind of siding also as water that is forced behind one board by wind, holes etc, is transferred down the back of that board to the face of the lower board and back outside like shingles or shakes.