14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin

Started by MadisonsDad, October 24, 2008, 01:32:36 AM

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MadisonsDad

Hi, new to the site but I sure like what I see.

Here's my project.



The inlaws got a new prebuilt home a few years back and all the son-in-laws and their families helped demolish the old house. I am a farmer so my tractors came in very handy for taking down the old house.  When we got to the original building I was astonished to find a 14 x 15 hand hewn tamarack log structure complete with dovetail corners that was covered up with siding inside and out since 1913-1918 (newspapers found inbetween the siding and log home, used for insulation, were dated 1913-1918). I believe the log structure was built closer to the early 1900's. The tamarack logs have approximately 80 years of growth so that would put the trees used in the 1820 ish range.

I decided then and there that this would be perfect for a little cabin and was way to valueable as a historic piece to demolish. I cut the 2nd story(2x4construction) off of it to get it down the road and into the back of our farmyard. It has sat there since the fall of 2005 and I have finally decided to complete this project. When finished it will be pulled on skids about a mile and a half to the river woods.

My question to start with is, I want to have a loft in it since it's so small,but I can't decide how high to go up from the log sidewall. I would like to have about 7 feet in the peak of the loft for headroom and I'm thinking about 2 and 1/2 feet of sidewall up there. The logs sides are already 8 and 1/2 feet high so this would make my sidewall about 11 and 1/2 feet high which I'm thinking would look too tall from the outside. Especially for such a small cabin. There are 2 x 6 floor joists and a second level floor already there. My roof pitch would be close to 7/12 with that sidewall and peak, but I think that it will simply look like a silo from the outside, being that tall.

If I take out the sidewall height, I think it just become's a loft with no usefull space except down the center. Plus a steep 12/12 pitch. I would also like to add a dormer up there. I have purchased materials to get started, but all I do is sit and stare at the top, trying to decide how high to go.

Another question, I was going to use 2x4's for the rafters, but now I'm thinking I better go with 2x 6's to get more room for a better R value up there. (I'm in northern MN)Has anyone framed up a small roof with 2x4's and gotten a good R value doing it?


:)
thanks
Jerry

Redoverfarm

 w*  Jerry . Great find.  Keep it covered for now as the logs will quickly deteroiate exposed to the elements without a roof.  That is the size of my kitchen portion of my cabin.  I have 24" kneewall , 10/12 pitch and 2X6 rafters. The headroom is 7' to the Collarties.  Really haven't got time to go intothe details now will will come back this evening to look further.  You can check out the photo bucket site or my CP site at my signature to get a look.

John


MadisonsDad

Thanks John,

Your cabin is very similar to what I have, when you say 2 feet for your kneewall is that from the top of the last log? My loft floor joists (2x6)are resting on the top of my logs. So if I go 2 feet, it will really be 1 & 1/2. I just can't decide how high to go. With a 2 foot kneewall and a 7 foot peak, How much headroom is there side to side up there for say a person just under 6 foot?

I should add I plan to cover up the walls on the exterior with metal siding. I don't want to leave them exposed to the northern Mn climate and there's a couple of spots where the condition on the outside of the log has really deteriorated.

Another obstacle I have is there was additions built on three sides of this cabin. I now have three door openings on a 14 x 15 room. I'm trying to decide a nice way to close 2 of them up on the inside and still have a look that matches the logs.

I would love to see and here more loft comments. I am having a hard time making a descision on it and getting started. aaarrrgggggh

I have to resize some images so I can get them on here.

Jerry

glenn kangiser

Photobucket will take care of the image sizes, Jerry.  Load them there and paste them here. - the IMG tag.  Put the options on Photobucket to Forum size I think it is.  Tutorial in our forum news.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

fishing_guy

Welcome to the forum.  w*  Could I ask where in northern MN?  We have some land in Sturgeon township, 10 miles north of Side lake.

A bad day of fishing beats a good day at work any day, but building something with your own hands beats anything.


MadisonsDad

Thanks Glen, I'll get them on here late tonight,

Too wet to do farmwork so I'm gonna go "mock up" a little rafter setup to see how it looks with different kneewall heights. I have the top floor to stand a 2x4 on for the peak height. There's still 2x4's coming up from the logs from the old second story (which was my wifes childhood bedroom) to attach a temporary rafter to at different heights to get an idea what it would look like.  

thanks fer now

MadisonsDad

We farm just south of Roseau, way up north.

Gods Country, or the Armpit of the World.... depending on what mood I'm in.

Woodswalker

Yo Jerry,

Welcome to the Forum.  I'm originally from MN, and know the state well (now in Olympia, WA).  Bet you see moose from time to time 'round there.  Folks here will be giving you some good advice.  Doing an onsite mock-up of options is a good start.  Look forward to your further postings, especially some pics.

Steve

MadisonsDad

Ok, did the mock up. I set one rafter at 2 foot high kneewall and the other at 2 and 1/2. With a seven foot peak and only 14 feet across I don't really gain much headroom with 2 and 1/2 but I sure like the higher room on the side. From the outside I try to picture it and it is plenty high for the sidewalls (pushing 12 feet) but losing the 6 inches of kneewall didn't seem to alter that look much. Losing the six inches just makes my roof less pitch which almost helped make it look shorter?

I'm gonna figure out pics and post them


Redoverfarm

Jerry when I was deciding what pitch to use I did the following.   

I measured up the corners 2' then went mid center of the structure and attached a story pole(plumb).  Then I used the end of the building to simulate different pitches up and down the story pole to the 2' . I had put a nail to rest one end of the simulated raftrer.  It was ground level and I could walk to see where the headroom was at depending on the pitch.  I chose the 10/12 .

If you go to the beginning (sorry for the length as it has been 2-1/2 years )of my thread you can get an idea of what I did.  A lot of modification  dealing with the sill logs and extending the small cabin with extra logs from the big one.  My kneewalls are actually logs.  I sandwiched the top log with 2X10 to get a level playing field from one cabin to the other.  Off several inches.  Once I got a level plane I used a 2X12 on top of those to which I set my rafters. 

I hate that you are covering up the outside.  But if it is really bad then I guess you don't have an option.  Some of mine were not in the best of shape either so I used chink in those spots as well as between the logs.

On the inside you could always build bookshelves for the doorways or put a false door (which leads no where)  Several options available to deal with that.  I had some rafter pockets that had been cut into onne wall. I just mortared them up and is not really noticable. The small cabin was actually 12-18" taller but having to drop the original sill lowered the whole thing.  Windows are a tell tell sign of that.

On the the board & batten addition I just went with the length that would match my elevation of the log part.   

MadisonsDad

I have spent the better part of the last few nights looking at all of your great cabins(with dial up mind you).  I'm gonna need alot of advice as I go. I have decided to go with 2 x 6 construction for the roof. 7' peak with a 30" kneewall. I want to put a dormer on one side up and would like some opinions on that.

thanks
Jerry

ScottA

Very cool. I'm glad you saved it.  :)

MadisonsDad

Thanks ScottA,

I should mention that I have spent alot of time sitting here the last few days waiting for my dialup internet to post pictures of your awesome cabin home your building. Truly an inspiration to newbies like me.

My 150HP bucket tractor had no problem breaking through the additions that were attached to this but when I came to this room, my tractor came to a very abrupt stop and almost put me threw the front window of the cab. My fellow brother in laws thought I was nuts for wanting to save this. It turned a weekend demolish job into a 2 week house moving project but I am so glad I did. I cut the original roof off because of height restraints getting it home which was about 9 miles away.  Also the weight of this structure is incredible. Lots of jacking to get it up off the ground, then 3 tractors from 100 -150 HP to lift it up enough to get a large gooseneck trailer under it. The county replaced a few bridges around here lately and we have collected quite a few large bridge planks that came in very handy.

The spot this will go has been cleared and built up with fill, I need to widen the road into it when we skid it out there, but it is only about 50 yards off my field to the river bank where it's going to sit.

I just want to do this old log house justice and make it something I'm very proud of. I worked with a local carpenter for a year and a half during my highschool days but I don't pretend to be a carpenter when it comes to figuring out how to do this correctly. My plan is to cover up the logs on the outside, to preserve them so my kids grandkids can peel away my siding and discover them the way I did. I first thought of metal siding similar to our pole sheds on the farm but now I'm thinking something that has a bit more of a cabin look to it. My plan is for the logs to be exposed form the inside with new perma chink inbetween the logs.

Here's some questions off the top of my head...

1.  How should I insulate the floor? It has two layers of tongue and groove planking, the top layer is warped badly but the bottom layer looks fine. Under that is the 2 x 6 floor joists and nothing else. I'm thinking batt rolls of insulation as thick as the joists plus reflectix which I just bought on sale to do the floor. Joists are 16" on center. Under that I am going to put wire cloth to keep the critters out. Do I need a vapor barrier and if so where should I put it? Also where should the reflectix go? I plan to do the floor from the underneath. The house is blocked up high and easy to access from underneath.

2. How do I go about siding it? There's up to an inch gap in the logs here and there and I plan to fill them with backer rod, then some type of purlin with maybe foam board the same thickness inbetween the purlins. Then some type of siding. I love the look of cedar but that might be out of my budget. I also want it to be relatively low maintenance. Do my walls need a vaper barrier such as felt?

3. Then there's the roof. I came up 30" from the log sides with 2x6 walls and 2 top plates. I want at least 7' of headroom up there which gives me somewhere around a 7/12 pitch. 2 x 6's will be used for rafter's with one running down the ridge. Do I need collar ties on a 14' wide room? What to use between the rafters and the metal sheets? Vapor barrier? On ScottA's overhang I see he trimmed down his 2x 8 ridgeplank to a 2x4 on the gable end to make the overhang match, it's those kinda things where I get a little lost, at least I have a hard time planning ahead for...

Sorry for the long post

Jerry

glenn kangiser

Jerry, Could you put a relatively clear protectant on the logs such as DEFY and leave them exposed on the outside with good roof overhangs?  Seems a shame to cover them.  Water damage mainly occurs from water on the top- the sides if chinked properly shouldn't have a problem. 

Check Redoverfarms project to see how John did it.  Sorry about the dial up. d*



http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3613.0
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


Redoverfarm

Jerry moving is a real pain.  But not much worse than cataloging the logs and erecting them in the order that belongs.  I moved a 15X30 barn(former Jenny Lynn style house) with a 15X30 wagon shed attached before I built my home.  Took about a week of jacking and blocking.  But I took the skid option as I only had to skid it 200-300 feet.  Took 5 shag bark hickory poles and bolted them together across both ends.  Then used a D-6 and skidded it to it's present location. Got it there and then a day or so letting it back down. Poles were then made into firewood. ;D



1.  I would put a vapor barrier on the heated side of the floor.  If you use the batts there is already a moisture barrier attached which would be placed against the floor. If you use the 2" rigid foam(2 layers) there is usually a plastic film attached to one side.  I am not familar withthe reflectex but if it has a moisture barrier I would not put it below the faced fiberglass or moisture will get trapped between the two and could cause problems.

2. As far as the "Perma chink" it is IMO really high and the application for a 5 gal bucket is 1/2 deep, 2" wide X 76' @ $115.  1" gap is no gap hardly and you might be justified.  Some of mine were in excess of 5-6" wide.  I used a 1" rigid foam mid center of the log width with rabbit wire on each side followed by mortar chink.  They also make a product to repair the checking in logs now.  I think it is sort of like the water based wood putty the name excapes me now but I am not sure of the stain acceptance or whether it is pre-colored.  The chinking is set 1/2 inset on the bottom of the log and to the face edge  of the following log to allow the water to drip from one log and roll onto the face and continue this process until rolling off the final log. But interior chinking can be face to face as no water problem would be encountered.

3. Yes I would use collar ties.  You can use 4X8" and then with an adze finish to ressemble the original logs.  I had some extra logs which were the 2nd story of the one glenn posted which I used since I made mine 1 -1/2 story.  In regards to the soffit. I set one rafter on the outside edge. Extended my ridge for a false rafter. Then used that false rafter as the outside of my soffit area of the gable.  By tacking a 2X2 cleat to the gable end level it created a level nailing surface for the soffit boxing which was the same thickness as my raters. A couple short blocks 2X6 to stiffen it every 4' or so. I then used a 1X8 over the outside gable rafter to cover the rough edge of the soffit and trim it out.  Yes there needs to be a vapor barrier in the roof as well with AGAIN the barrier toward the warm side or ceiling side .  You should also use a ventalation system such as rafter-mates with fiberglass or styrofoam sheeting with 3/4" cleats to create a air channel from the soffit area.

I would strongly recommend that you treat the logs with a Boric acid such as Timbor which you can buy for insect infestation.  There are several on-line pest agencies that will sell and ship and you  mix with water and apply with a garden sprayer or pressure sprayer.  Giving it a couple days followed by a sealer to seal the chemicals within the wood and help seal the logs.

I am like you Sorry for the post.  If I missed something I re-post of wait until you inquire again.

John

MadisonsDad

How are your collarties attached to your rafters? I want to be able to walk down the middle up there so I may go with a steeper pitch to get room to attach the collarties a little higher. I'm looking at your photo's now and you must be wider than 14' there to get that much clearance above yours and still have 7' below?

So faced fiberglass insulation is considered it's own moisture barrier? Maybe I should just go with that and the wire cheese cloth down there?How big does that wire cloth come? 4 x 8 sheets would be nice.

Another question, If I install a dormer should I extend my sidewall 2x6 (inline with dormer side)up higher now to strengthen the dormer? Or just make my sidewall with the 2 top plates and build the dormer up from that?

Should that sidewall be flush with the outer logs or should I sink it in a bit? I started to put them on and made them flush. Now I'm thinking if I ever want to expose those logs my sidewall and gable end will stick out farther because of the siding and purlins underneath. Maybe that sticking out isn't a bad thing to protect the logs from moisture going down?

The reasons I want to cover up the logs are not just for maintenance. I would love the log exterior look like John's. But, I want these logs to outlast me. The weather isn't my only fear. If you read John's post his original log cabin was stolen, we have a bit of a vandalism problem with deer cabins in these parts (maybe not more than anywhere else) and I don't want to go out there one day and find someone has tampered with the building or done something that can't be repaired. If a tresspasser happens by and sees a hunting shack that looks a little less stunning from the outside maybe that's a good thing? This time of year and the month of November brings alot of new faces around our farmland searching for a trophy buck's during deer season and some of them don't appreciate personal property. That makes me sound anti-social, I'm not, but we've made up our minds to cover the logs up for now and enjoy them from the inside of the cabin.

Thanks
Jerry

glenn kangiser

Got a point there, Jerry.  Whitlock had one set on fire - USFS?  It would not be the first time in these parts.  Some paid with their lives though.  You have to love Mariposa County.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

MadisonsDad

Gonna try this picture hosting site to see if this works, I have no luck with photobucket




Oh you guys in trouble now...prepare to be bombed with photos!

glenn kangiser

Ahhh -- the perils of success - good job... :)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Whitlock

What a nice find! Good for you 8)

Glenn is that picture of the cabin on Dog Town Road?
Make Peace With Your Past So It Won't Screw Up The Present


Redoverfarm

Jerry  nice looking cabin.  You do have some water damage near the bottom which is common.  If that is the only location this can be replaced.  It is done all the time.  The reason that it is common is that they used to use stones on the corners.  Through the years the stone would settle and allow the logs to make contact with the ground. Then the problems started.  I would say that the roof system was inadequate in that it probably never had much of an overhang and allowing the rain to splash up onto the log. 

Wonder what the deal was with the verticle logs adjacent to the window and door.  I seriously doubt that was the original design only a modification.  Since the window or door was probably installed later they would have only had short log pieces remaining thus the verticle.  Most cabins had the load bearing on the corners with very little on the logs between.  If you have enough logs there you can change it back to the original by lag bolting the ends of the short pieces into the door and window framing.  Since you decided to cover the exterior wall it would be a eyesore on the interior and you might think about changing it.

Was there additions built on the two sides pictured?  Like to see the other two sides if you can get it done. 

MadisonsDad

Here's the other two sides

Also a closeup of the logs where the builders son wrote his name. He did this in a few spots on this side. He died in 1948.








MadisonsDad

I spent most of the afternoon jacking the cabin up and down. I removed one layer of the cement blocks to get it a bit lower to the ground and also spent alot of time trying to make it as level as possible to help keep me somewhat level as I go. Lot's of crawling around with blocking and bottle jacks made for a long day. I also put a 6x6 down the middle under the joists where there was one before. This really brought the floor back to level and helped square things up.

Let me run this by you guys and confirm my measurements. The building is 14' wide and I have now decided on a 8' peak and a 10/12pitch. That would make my outside sidewall measurement 26" correct?

Balmy 32 out today with a northwest wind at 15 making it a windchill of 19. Sign of things to come I guess...

Redoverfarm

Jerry the long sill's that are sticking out from under the cabin are they original sills that they used to build the addition on.  They have the same markings that are prevelant on the logs.  The reason I asked is that the other photo lacked a bottom sill running the other direction from the last log on the bottom.

Any idea what the square holes were near the 2nd story.  Maybe the addition that you took down would give some indication.

Still has good joinery that kept the chink joint small.  Was there ever chink in there of did they just sheet over.

MadisonsDad

#24
Correct on the long sills. My understanding is they jacked up the cabin when they put the first addition on which was a bathroom. I have heard the story second hand that a grandson who is still alive helped dig a basement under that addition after it was completed. Lot's of digging carrying up the dirt by hand and fighting the walls from caving in on them.

The 2 holes which I think your referring to are from a wood heating stove and a wood cooking stove.  I think the open hole was made when the stove was moved into a living room addition on that side and the hole gave them access to the chimney. The boarded up hole was from the early on wood cook stove. The chimney was installed inside this cabin and I had to dismantle it and remove the bricks during the demolishing phase of this project. Most of the bricks were salvaged and are waiting for another purpose.

There is still plenty of chinking left (on the outside) in it but most of it is loose and I am planning on removing it and sealing the cracks inside and out with backer rod before I cover it up and then chinking the interior.  There's also old shim boards, cedar sticks, and nylons,denim, etc. tucked in the log gaps.The interior walls (1x6) are still installed because my thinking is the boards are helping to hold this structure together and square. I'm waiting to finish the exterior before I remove them.

Somebody please tell me I have my pitch and measurements right? ???