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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 01:32:36 AM

Title: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 01:32:36 AM
Hi, new to the site but I sure like what I see.

Here's my project.

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/logcabinJerrys.jpg)

The inlaws got a new prebuilt home a few years back and all the son-in-laws and their families helped demolish the old house. I am a farmer so my tractors came in very handy for taking down the old house.  When we got to the original building I was astonished to find a 14 x 15 hand hewn tamarack log structure complete with dovetail corners that was covered up with siding inside and out since 1913-1918 (newspapers found inbetween the siding and log home, used for insulation, were dated 1913-1918). I believe the log structure was built closer to the early 1900's. The tamarack logs have approximately 80 years of growth so that would put the trees used in the 1820 ish range.

I decided then and there that this would be perfect for a little cabin and was way to valueable as a historic piece to demolish. I cut the 2nd story(2x4construction) off of it to get it down the road and into the back of our farmyard. It has sat there since the fall of 2005 and I have finally decided to complete this project. When finished it will be pulled on skids about a mile and a half to the river woods.

My question to start with is, I want to have a loft in it since it's so small,but I can't decide how high to go up from the log sidewall. I would like to have about 7 feet in the peak of the loft for headroom and I'm thinking about 2 and 1/2 feet of sidewall up there. The logs sides are already 8 and 1/2 feet high so this would make my sidewall about 11 and 1/2 feet high which I'm thinking would look too tall from the outside. Especially for such a small cabin. There are 2 x 6 floor joists and a second level floor already there. My roof pitch would be close to 7/12 with that sidewall and peak, but I think that it will simply look like a silo from the outside, being that tall.

If I take out the sidewall height, I think it just become's a loft with no usefull space except down the center. Plus a steep 12/12 pitch. I would also like to add a dormer up there. I have purchased materials to get started, but all I do is sit and stare at the top, trying to decide how high to go.

Another question, I was going to use 2x4's for the rafters, but now I'm thinking I better go with 2x 6's to get more room for a better R value up there. (I'm in northern MN)Has anyone framed up a small roof with 2x4's and gotten a good R value doing it?


:)
thanks
Jerry
Title: Re: Help needed restoring old cabin...
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 24, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
 w*  Jerry . Great find.  Keep it covered for now as the logs will quickly deteroiate exposed to the elements without a roof.  That is the size of my kitchen portion of my cabin.  I have 24" kneewall , 10/12 pitch and 2X6 rafters. The headroom is 7' to the Collarties.  Really haven't got time to go intothe details now will will come back this evening to look further.  You can check out the photo bucket site or my CP site at my signature to get a look.

John
Title: Re: Help needed restoring old cabin...
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 10:13:29 AM
Thanks John,

Your cabin is very similar to what I have, when you say 2 feet for your kneewall is that from the top of the last log? My loft floor joists (2x6)are resting on the top of my logs. So if I go 2 feet, it will really be 1 & 1/2. I just can't decide how high to go. With a 2 foot kneewall and a 7 foot peak, How much headroom is there side to side up there for say a person just under 6 foot?

I should add I plan to cover up the walls on the exterior with metal siding. I don't want to leave them exposed to the northern Mn climate and there's a couple of spots where the condition on the outside of the log has really deteriorated.

Another obstacle I have is there was additions built on three sides of this cabin. I now have three door openings on a 14 x 15 room. I'm trying to decide a nice way to close 2 of them up on the inside and still have a look that matches the logs.

I would love to see and here more loft comments. I am having a hard time making a descision on it and getting started. aaarrrgggggh

I have to resize some images so I can get them on here.

Jerry
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 24, 2008, 11:43:27 AM
Photobucket will take care of the image sizes, Jerry.  Load them there and paste them here. - the IMG tag.  Put the options on Photobucket to Forum size I think it is.  Tutorial in our forum news.
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: fishing_guy on October 24, 2008, 11:58:11 AM
Welcome to the forum.  w*  Could I ask where in northern MN?  We have some land in Sturgeon township, 10 miles north of Side lake.

Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 12:00:58 PM
Thanks Glen, I'll get them on here late tonight,

Too wet to do farmwork so I'm gonna go "mock up" a little rafter setup to see how it looks with different kneewall heights. I have the top floor to stand a 2x4 on for the peak height. There's still 2x4's coming up from the logs from the old second story (which was my wifes childhood bedroom) to attach a temporary rafter to at different heights to get an idea what it would look like.  

thanks fer now
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 12:04:04 PM
We farm just south of Roseau, way up north.

Gods Country, or the Armpit of the World.... depending on what mood I'm in.
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: Woodswalker on October 24, 2008, 12:57:40 PM
Yo Jerry,

Welcome to the Forum.  I'm originally from MN, and know the state well (now in Olympia, WA).  Bet you see moose from time to time 'round there.  Folks here will be giving you some good advice.  Doing an onsite mock-up of options is a good start.  Look forward to your further postings, especially some pics.

Steve
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 24, 2008, 02:01:25 PM
Ok, did the mock up. I set one rafter at 2 foot high kneewall and the other at 2 and 1/2. With a seven foot peak and only 14 feet across I don't really gain much headroom with 2 and 1/2 but I sure like the higher room on the side. From the outside I try to picture it and it is plenty high for the sidewalls (pushing 12 feet) but losing the 6 inches of kneewall didn't seem to alter that look much. Losing the six inches just makes my roof less pitch which almost helped make it look shorter?

I'm gonna figure out pics and post them
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 24, 2008, 02:32:51 PM
Jerry when I was deciding what pitch to use I did the following.   

I measured up the corners 2' then went mid center of the structure and attached a story pole(plumb).  Then I used the end of the building to simulate different pitches up and down the story pole to the 2' . I had put a nail to rest one end of the simulated raftrer.  It was ground level and I could walk to see where the headroom was at depending on the pitch.  I chose the 10/12 .

If you go to the beginning (sorry for the length as it has been 2-1/2 years )of my thread you can get an idea of what I did.  A lot of modification  dealing with the sill logs and extending the small cabin with extra logs from the big one.  My kneewalls are actually logs.  I sandwiched the top log with 2X10 to get a level playing field from one cabin to the other.  Off several inches.  Once I got a level plane I used a 2X12 on top of those to which I set my rafters. 

I hate that you are covering up the outside.  But if it is really bad then I guess you don't have an option.  Some of mine were not in the best of shape either so I used chink in those spots as well as between the logs.

On the inside you could always build bookshelves for the doorways or put a false door (which leads no where)  Several options available to deal with that.  I had some rafter pockets that had been cut into onne wall. I just mortared them up and is not really noticable. The small cabin was actually 12-18" taller but having to drop the original sill lowered the whole thing.  Windows are a tell tell sign of that.

On the the board & batten addition I just went with the length that would match my elevation of the log part.   
Title: Re: Help needed restoring 14 x 15 old cabin...
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 25, 2008, 08:00:46 PM
I have spent the better part of the last few nights looking at all of your great cabins(with dial up mind you).  I'm gonna need alot of advice as I go. I have decided to go with 2 x 6 construction for the roof. 7' peak with a 30" kneewall. I want to put a dormer on one side up and would like some opinions on that.

thanks
Jerry
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: ScottA on October 26, 2008, 01:58:54 PM
Very cool. I'm glad you saved it.  :)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 26, 2008, 04:18:51 PM
Thanks ScottA,

I should mention that I have spent alot of time sitting here the last few days waiting for my dialup internet to post pictures of your awesome cabin home your building. Truly an inspiration to newbies like me.

My 150HP bucket tractor had no problem breaking through the additions that were attached to this but when I came to this room, my tractor came to a very abrupt stop and almost put me threw the front window of the cab. My fellow brother in laws thought I was nuts for wanting to save this. It turned a weekend demolish job into a 2 week house moving project but I am so glad I did. I cut the original roof off because of height restraints getting it home which was about 9 miles away.  Also the weight of this structure is incredible. Lots of jacking to get it up off the ground, then 3 tractors from 100 -150 HP to lift it up enough to get a large gooseneck trailer under it. The county replaced a few bridges around here lately and we have collected quite a few large bridge planks that came in very handy.

The spot this will go has been cleared and built up with fill, I need to widen the road into it when we skid it out there, but it is only about 50 yards off my field to the river bank where it's going to sit.

I just want to do this old log house justice and make it something I'm very proud of. I worked with a local carpenter for a year and a half during my highschool days but I don't pretend to be a carpenter when it comes to figuring out how to do this correctly. My plan is to cover up the logs on the outside, to preserve them so my kids grandkids can peel away my siding and discover them the way I did. I first thought of metal siding similar to our pole sheds on the farm but now I'm thinking something that has a bit more of a cabin look to it. My plan is for the logs to be exposed form the inside with new perma chink inbetween the logs.

Here's some questions off the top of my head...

1.  How should I insulate the floor? It has two layers of tongue and groove planking, the top layer is warped badly but the bottom layer looks fine. Under that is the 2 x 6 floor joists and nothing else. I'm thinking batt rolls of insulation as thick as the joists plus reflectix which I just bought on sale to do the floor. Joists are 16" on center. Under that I am going to put wire cloth to keep the critters out. Do I need a vapor barrier and if so where should I put it? Also where should the reflectix go? I plan to do the floor from the underneath. The house is blocked up high and easy to access from underneath.

2. How do I go about siding it? There's up to an inch gap in the logs here and there and I plan to fill them with backer rod, then some type of purlin with maybe foam board the same thickness inbetween the purlins. Then some type of siding. I love the look of cedar but that might be out of my budget. I also want it to be relatively low maintenance. Do my walls need a vaper barrier such as felt?

3. Then there's the roof. I came up 30" from the log sides with 2x6 walls and 2 top plates. I want at least 7' of headroom up there which gives me somewhere around a 7/12 pitch. 2 x 6's will be used for rafter's with one running down the ridge. Do I need collar ties on a 14' wide room? What to use between the rafters and the metal sheets? Vapor barrier? On ScottA's overhang I see he trimmed down his 2x 8 ridgeplank to a 2x4 on the gable end to make the overhang match, it's those kinda things where I get a little lost, at least I have a hard time planning ahead for...

Sorry for the long post

Jerry
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 26, 2008, 04:35:46 PM
Jerry, Could you put a relatively clear protectant on the logs such as DEFY and leave them exposed on the outside with good roof overhangs?  Seems a shame to cover them.  Water damage mainly occurs from water on the top- the sides if chinked properly shouldn't have a problem. 

Check Redoverfarms project to see how John did it.  Sorry about the dial up. d*

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/100_0749-1.jpg)

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3613.0
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 26, 2008, 07:40:18 PM
Jerry moving is a real pain.  But not much worse than cataloging the logs and erecting them in the order that belongs.  I moved a 15X30 barn(former Jenny Lynn style house) with a 15X30 wagon shed attached before I built my home.  Took about a week of jacking and blocking.  But I took the skid option as I only had to skid it 200-300 feet.  Took 5 shag bark hickory poles and bolted them together across both ends.  Then used a D-6 and skidded it to it's present location. Got it there and then a day or so letting it back down. Poles were then made into firewood. ;D

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/hightop/farm/Picture_0096-1.jpg)

1.  I would put a vapor barrier on the heated side of the floor.  If you use the batts there is already a moisture barrier attached which would be placed against the floor. If you use the 2" rigid foam(2 layers) there is usually a plastic film attached to one side.  I am not familar withthe reflectex but if it has a moisture barrier I would not put it below the faced fiberglass or moisture will get trapped between the two and could cause problems.

2. As far as the "Perma chink" it is IMO really high and the application for a 5 gal bucket is 1/2 deep, 2" wide X 76' @ $115.  1" gap is no gap hardly and you might be justified.  Some of mine were in excess of 5-6" wide.  I used a 1" rigid foam mid center of the log width with rabbit wire on each side followed by mortar chink.  They also make a product to repair the checking in logs now.  I think it is sort of like the water based wood putty the name excapes me now but I am not sure of the stain acceptance or whether it is pre-colored.  The chinking is set 1/2 inset on the bottom of the log and to the face edge  of the following log to allow the water to drip from one log and roll onto the face and continue this process until rolling off the final log. But interior chinking can be face to face as no water problem would be encountered.

3. Yes I would use collar ties.  You can use 4X8" and then with an adze finish to ressemble the original logs.  I had some extra logs which were the 2nd story of the one glenn posted which I used since I made mine 1 -1/2 story.  In regards to the soffit. I set one rafter on the outside edge. Extended my ridge for a false rafter. Then used that false rafter as the outside of my soffit area of the gable.  By tacking a 2X2 cleat to the gable end level it created a level nailing surface for the soffit boxing which was the same thickness as my raters. A couple short blocks 2X6 to stiffen it every 4' or so. I then used a 1X8 over the outside gable rafter to cover the rough edge of the soffit and trim it out.  Yes there needs to be a vapor barrier in the roof as well with AGAIN the barrier toward the warm side or ceiling side .  You should also use a ventalation system such as rafter-mates with fiberglass or styrofoam sheeting with 3/4" cleats to create a air channel from the soffit area.

I would strongly recommend that you treat the logs with a Boric acid such as Timbor which you can buy for insect infestation.  There are several on-line pest agencies that will sell and ship and you  mix with water and apply with a garden sprayer or pressure sprayer.  Giving it a couple days followed by a sealer to seal the chemicals within the wood and help seal the logs.

I am like you Sorry for the post.  If I missed something I re-post of wait until you inquire again.

John
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 26, 2008, 10:09:45 PM
How are your collarties attached to your rafters? I want to be able to walk down the middle up there so I may go with a steeper pitch to get room to attach the collarties a little higher. I'm looking at your photo's now and you must be wider than 14' there to get that much clearance above yours and still have 7' below?

So faced fiberglass insulation is considered it's own moisture barrier? Maybe I should just go with that and the wire cheese cloth down there?How big does that wire cloth come? 4 x 8 sheets would be nice.

Another question, If I install a dormer should I extend my sidewall 2x6 (inline with dormer side)up higher now to strengthen the dormer? Or just make my sidewall with the 2 top plates and build the dormer up from that?

Should that sidewall be flush with the outer logs or should I sink it in a bit? I started to put them on and made them flush. Now I'm thinking if I ever want to expose those logs my sidewall and gable end will stick out farther because of the siding and purlins underneath. Maybe that sticking out isn't a bad thing to protect the logs from moisture going down?

The reasons I want to cover up the logs are not just for maintenance. I would love the log exterior look like John's. But, I want these logs to outlast me. The weather isn't my only fear. If you read John's post his original log cabin was stolen, we have a bit of a vandalism problem with deer cabins in these parts (maybe not more than anywhere else) and I don't want to go out there one day and find someone has tampered with the building or done something that can't be repaired. If a tresspasser happens by and sees a hunting shack that looks a little less stunning from the outside maybe that's a good thing? This time of year and the month of November brings alot of new faces around our farmland searching for a trophy buck's during deer season and some of them don't appreciate personal property. That makes me sound anti-social, I'm not, but we've made up our minds to cover the logs up for now and enjoy them from the inside of the cabin.

Thanks
Jerry
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 26, 2008, 11:24:36 PM
Got a point there, Jerry.  Whitlock had one set on fire - USFS?  It would not be the first time in these parts.  Some paid with their lives though.  You have to love Mariposa County.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 27, 2008, 12:35:50 AM
Gonna try this picture hosting site to see if this works, I have no luck with photobucket

(http://i34.tinypic.com/5p3q0y.jpg)


Oh you guys in trouble now...prepare to be bombed with photos!
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 27, 2008, 09:35:36 AM
Ahhh -- the perils of success - good job... :)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Whitlock on October 27, 2008, 10:24:46 AM
What a nice find! Good for you 8)

Glenn is that picture of the cabin on Dog Town Road?
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 27, 2008, 03:47:40 PM
Jerry  nice looking cabin.  You do have some water damage near the bottom which is common.  If that is the only location this can be replaced.  It is done all the time.  The reason that it is common is that they used to use stones on the corners.  Through the years the stone would settle and allow the logs to make contact with the ground. Then the problems started.  I would say that the roof system was inadequate in that it probably never had much of an overhang and allowing the rain to splash up onto the log. 

Wonder what the deal was with the verticle logs adjacent to the window and door.  I seriously doubt that was the original design only a modification.  Since the window or door was probably installed later they would have only had short log pieces remaining thus the verticle.  Most cabins had the load bearing on the corners with very little on the logs between.  If you have enough logs there you can change it back to the original by lag bolting the ends of the short pieces into the door and window framing.  Since you decided to cover the exterior wall it would be a eyesore on the interior and you might think about changing it.

Was there additions built on the two sides pictured?  Like to see the other two sides if you can get it done. 
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 27, 2008, 07:49:51 PM
Here's the other two sides

Also a closeup of the logs where the builders son wrote his name. He did this in a few spots on this side. He died in 1948.

(http://i38.tinypic.com/n1bgcm.jpg)

(http://i36.tinypic.com/ifa5go.jpg)

(http://i38.tinypic.com/mhc9l3.jpg)

Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 27, 2008, 08:10:40 PM
I spent most of the afternoon jacking the cabin up and down. I removed one layer of the cement blocks to get it a bit lower to the ground and also spent alot of time trying to make it as level as possible to help keep me somewhat level as I go. Lot's of crawling around with blocking and bottle jacks made for a long day. I also put a 6x6 down the middle under the joists where there was one before. This really brought the floor back to level and helped square things up.

Let me run this by you guys and confirm my measurements. The building is 14' wide and I have now decided on a 8' peak and a 10/12pitch. That would make my outside sidewall measurement 26" correct?

Balmy 32 out today with a northwest wind at 15 making it a windchill of 19. Sign of things to come I guess...
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 27, 2008, 08:37:07 PM
Jerry the long sill's that are sticking out from under the cabin are they original sills that they used to build the addition on.  They have the same markings that are prevelant on the logs.  The reason I asked is that the other photo lacked a bottom sill running the other direction from the last log on the bottom.

Any idea what the square holes were near the 2nd story.  Maybe the addition that you took down would give some indication.

Still has good joinery that kept the chink joint small.  Was there ever chink in there of did they just sheet over.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 27, 2008, 11:06:18 PM
Correct on the long sills. My understanding is they jacked up the cabin when they put the first addition on which was a bathroom. I have heard the story second hand that a grandson who is still alive helped dig a basement under that addition after it was completed. Lot's of digging carrying up the dirt by hand and fighting the walls from caving in on them.

The 2 holes which I think your referring to are from a wood heating stove and a wood cooking stove.  I think the open hole was made when the stove was moved into a living room addition on that side and the hole gave them access to the chimney. The boarded up hole was from the early on wood cook stove. The chimney was installed inside this cabin and I had to dismantle it and remove the bricks during the demolishing phase of this project. Most of the bricks were salvaged and are waiting for another purpose.

There is still plenty of chinking left (on the outside) in it but most of it is loose and I am planning on removing it and sealing the cracks inside and out with backer rod before I cover it up and then chinking the interior.  There's also old shim boards, cedar sticks, and nylons,denim, etc. tucked in the log gaps.The interior walls (1x6) are still installed because my thinking is the boards are helping to hold this structure together and square. I'm waiting to finish the exterior before I remove them.

Somebody please tell me I have my pitch and measurements right? ???



Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 28, 2008, 12:04:37 AM
Jerry, 14 wide=7' each half x10" up for each of those 7= 70" + 26" = 96" or 8'.

Don't forget it will be narrow at the top.  Looks right to me, but I was trying to keep my brain from having to work so hard.  Brains are a bit hard to come by you know... [crz]
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Whitlock on October 28, 2008, 12:21:22 AM
This might help for getting your rafter length???

Take half the width of your building X that by 1.30 for a 10/12 pitch add your over hang.
So 1.30 X 7=9.1 then add your over hang.


Use 1.20 for a 8/12
       1.25 for a 9/12
       1.30 for a 10/12
       1.41 for a 12/12

Hope this helps,W
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on October 28, 2008, 12:31:32 AM
Thanks guys, that's good stuff Whitlock.

When you install metal on the roof what's usually the measurement for the gap at the top that the ridge cap covers up?
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on October 28, 2008, 12:46:48 AM
It can vary some but on the steel buildings I did it was usually about 4 inches- pitch was only 2/12 though.

You can work it out to be a continuous vent if you want by putting 1/4 hardware cloth under the cap and leaving it open - no seals under the cap.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on October 28, 2008, 05:07:00 AM
This is what I did and talked about it with Pete.  Here is what we discussed regarding the ridge area and the opening at the top of the metal.  I used screen first for the litle critters(flies and bugs) then hardware cloth for the bigger such as bats and squirrels.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1568.msg68851#msg68851

In regards to the collar ties.  I used (3) 3/8" X 6" lag screws per side with the head side on the rafter w/ washer.  If your logs are oak I would pre-drill undersize the holes as the lags will snap in the hardwood.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 01, 2008, 11:46:19 AM
Anyone seen my tape measure?

(http://i36.tinypic.com/11jn8sn.jpg)

(http://i38.tinypic.com/zxvh3t.jpg)

Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 01, 2008, 11:49:31 AM
Here you can see how the logs have settled over time. My top plate is level and square to the bottom log.

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2mw9d9j.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 01, 2008, 11:56:03 AM
Ok question time, In this photo you can see the opening in the middle where I'm going to put in the dormer. How wide should it be? How tall should it be? I'm thinking a gable style dormer but maybe a shed style would be more practical? If I did a shed style what is the least pitch I could go with a metal roof? The roof is 10/12

If it's gable style...I'm thinking 4' wide, and maybe 6' high so we can stand under it when looking out the window this direction? Does this sound about right? Maybe a little higher?

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2cy39le.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Sassy on November 01, 2008, 12:43:57 PM
Really like that old cabin - the proportions look good with the roof - are you going to put porches around?  I love Redover's cabin - yours is the same type - should look really neat - you sure you have to cover it up with metal?  Can't tell you what type of dormer - I like the peaked roof type, but probably a lot more work... 
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 01, 2008, 12:44:16 PM
I think Gable dormer from the ridge would be more  appropriate for the style you are doing.  Width can be as required.

As I recall, peak at 8' would not give much room for more than 6' high considering the pitch.  Rough calc on a 4' wide dormer pitch would be around 10/12 w' allowance for joists thickness @ 6'
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 01, 2008, 03:01:50 PM
Jerry below is a website of a guy that does these for a living. His yard is just minutes from the house.  You might look throuogh is photo gallery and see what he is putting on his houses and get some ideas. 

http://www.antiquecabinsandbarns.com/photogallery.aspx#PS_Album_Top
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Sassy on November 01, 2008, 03:25:33 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 01, 2008, 03:01:50 PM
Jerry below is a website of a guy that does these for a living. His yard is just minutes from the house.  You might look throuogh is photo gallery and see what he is putting on his houses and get some ideas. 

http://www.antiquecabinsandbarns.com/photogallery.aspx#PS_Album_Top

I sure enjoyed looking through those cabins, thanks for posting, Red!
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 01, 2008, 03:45:47 PM
Sassy did you happen to catch the latest post on Dogtrot.  I must have hit the forum at a bad time when other things of more importance were being discussed and it was lost in the shuffle.

If mine would just turn out 1/2 of what the inside of those look like I will be happy.  But the ones in the gallery probably eat up mega bucks.  I stopped by his yard the other day and Picked up the mantle for mine(16" wide log). His dad said he was at the Capitol setting one up for the Cultural Center.  He just came back from setting one at Monticello (Thomas Jeffersons place in Va.) He has shipped them all over the US including Hawaii. Didn't take the time to go through all the cabins to see if there was one in your area.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Sassy on November 01, 2008, 04:50:43 PM
Just hadn't gotten to replying - sometimes I get lazy & just read & look at everything.  Your's can compete with any of those!  Especially since you've done all the work yourself...  anyone can hire a bunch of people & spend tons of money to get a look they want (well, if you have the money you can... )  But doing it yourself, taking the time to get it just right...  that takes lots of work, dedication & vision... 

And it's great that so many people have that here on this forum.   :)  The new ones can see what others have done & learn & get ideas. 

Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 02, 2008, 12:41:57 PM
Jerry since your earlier post I have been thinking about your options.  I believe that a shed dormer would fit more into the period of the logs.  In regards to the pitch I would not go any less than a 3/12.  If you are planning on a metal roof.  I think it is the manufacturing standard of minimum.  It will however lessen the headroom vs. a gable style.  But if you are like me and that's what you want then go with the gable.  Mine cabin is probably a far cry from original but I still tend to lean in that direction when I make a modification.

In the cabins I have seen with a shed dormer they are actually very low.  But then again most were originally designed as a 1 story and they just pushed the envelope so to speek and added a room upstairs in the attic.  But most didn't go with that steep of a pitch (6/12 to 8/12) which didn't allow a lot of room.

I am sure you will make it work one way or the other. Keep us posted.   
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 02, 2008, 09:40:30 PM
Thanks for the ideas guys. I'm leaning towards a shed style that ends up being a bit low on the inside to try to salvage as much pitch as I can. I originally had my mind set on a little gable but I agree with Redoverfarm in that a shed style kinda looks more correct with this style cabin?  Plus I like the idea of no valleys up there. Now I just need to find some "How to frame a shed style dormer" articles and get back to building.

I took a break from the cabin for a few days to finish up our soybean harvest and get things put away for winter around here. I did spend part of this morning working on a small bridge that spans a little creek next to where the cabin will eventually be. My step-father and I have put in alot of time on that bridge and it is almost complete. We were kidding that we should have a ribbon cutting ceremony for it. I took a few pictures but they look a little more dreary than it really is because all the leaves have fallen. You can see my kids down by the river in the one pic, that's their favorite place to be when we go out there. Next to the water, almost falling in. The next pic shows some small oaks and the distance I am off my farm fields. If I could have just one of those little mountains from Montana out there that would be great. The last one shows my buddy Cody, who can't seem to keep his ears on straight.

(http://i33.tinypic.com/r7tc79.jpg)

(http://i36.tinypic.com/4ucr3c.jpg)

(http://i34.tinypic.com/dfionb.jpg)



Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Sassy on November 02, 2008, 09:47:52 PM
Nice bridge  :)  kids always like the water it seems...  our place up here gets pretty brown in the fall, especially when all the leaves start falling off the trees.   Cody looks like he's having fun, too!
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 02, 2008, 09:48:47 PM
Here's one more that shows the river a bit better and what should be the view out the north end of the cabin. You can also see the beavers have been busy improving my view. Might be time for me to thin the herd on them again. If they just knew when to quit we'd get along fine.

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2qcl8cj.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 02, 2008, 09:59:04 PM
I think there is dormer framing in this downloadable PDF manual

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=173.0
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Sassy on November 03, 2008, 12:42:18 AM
(https://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e44/kathykrn/ScreenShot026.jpg)

This is a picture of shed dormers on ChatyCady's cabin
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1925.0
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 01:01:51 AM
Just wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving to all.

We have had a very tough day around here. My buddy Cody in the photo above was struck and killed be a passing truck on the highway in front of the house last night. I spent the morning finding a nice place for him to rest out by the cabin spot. I have been very busy lately hauling grain and haven't worked on the cabin or spent as much time with him as I normally do. Yesterday was an exception though, We took a long ride to a local elevator in the morning, then played fetch a bit in the afternoon, then took a trip down to the river to get rid of some pumpkin's. Shortly after we returned home he was in and out of the house and it happened. I heard it from inside and immediately new what happened. Traffic was busy because of the holiday, he had been following his nose a bit more lately and had been expanding his little walks around the yard. I have been keeping a better eye on him running free but I let my guard down. I blame myself, The lady who hit him had a very tough time with it, my wife and kids are dealing with it as best we can. He was just a little over 9 months old, and we had big plans for him being a big part of the family for many years to come.  We haven't taken the time this fall to take many pictures and this one is the only one I have of him since he outgrew his puppy stage from the summer.

If your a pet owner give them a big hug and be thankful, It's pretty quiet around here without him...
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 01:47:23 AM

Bummer about Cody ,  :( Sad day indeed.  :(


On your cabin , how have you attached those pony walls ?

You have a major hinge point deal going there !

  Fine Homebuilding had a good article in the Jan 2009 , issue # 200 you may want to pick up.

I'd say a shed dormer would "fit" best, and provide some relief from outward forces on the pony walls , and provide a little sheer as well.

I'm quite concerned about those pony walls / hinge point area, you should be as well.

Again,  I'm sorry about the dog , I hate that part of pet ownership. Best wishes to you and yours.



     
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 28, 2008, 02:26:50 AM
Sorry to hear about Cody.  My Jeep had  a dead battery today and I had to walk my 3 dogs along the highway for 3 miles.  Since they are not used to traffic here on the mountain, I was a bit worried but they took to the makeshift leash well and made it OK.

I know how you feel though.  Things have to get better from here.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 28, 2008, 05:28:16 AM
Sorry to hear about Cody.  My son had a Blue Heeler that was one year that met the same fate.  Waited a year and got another one.  I put a training collar on him and adjusted his attitude a little at the bridge leading to the house.  He has done good so far when loose.  My son is afraid to let him loose overnight though so we put him in the kennel.  This is the third one.  1st (Aust Shepherd)ran off with stray bear dogs.  A little over protective of this one.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 11:19:44 AM
[quote author=PEG688 link=topic=5452.msg73631#msg73631 date=1227854843


On your cabin , how have you attached those pony walls ?

You have a major hinge point deal going there !


It may not show in the photo's but the top log has been notched for the upper floor joists. That notch is wide enough for the 2x6's to sit in that notch and is screwed  to the floor joists. They are also toenailed in with 6" screws to the upper log. The floor joists are true 2 x 6's and are as old as the cabin. This is the same way the original roof was attached, only it was 2x4 construction and nails of course. I plan to attack that hinge point again when I board up the sides for the exterior siding. Not sure what else I can do there.






     
[/quote]
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 28, 2008, 11:46:56 AM
Not that this is a great solution but you could strap brace down to the floor joist - you would lose some room width which I assume you want to keep as well as height of the room.  Possibly a beam under the ridge board supported at the ends? or not enough height?  Room for substantial collar ties? Just ideas

The pushing out will occur at the top of the pony wall as the rafters try to spread and push the top of the walls out.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 02:31:00 PM
There's gonna be collar ties installed.  I understand exactly what you guys are saying and I will address it as when I get back to working on it.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 02:40:31 PM
Quote from: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 02:31:00 PM


There's gonna be collar ties installed.  I understand exactly what you guys are saying and I will address it as when I get back to working on it.




Good I'm glad we didn't Pi$$ you off , but we just want to point out what MIGHT go wrong.

Any plans for knee walls inside of the exterior wall? For storage closets / built in dressers? If so some trianglization , tying the joist back up to the existing pony wall , or sheathed walls inside the closets , also tied to the joist to add sheer or racking strength MIGHT be able to be incorporated, even if the closets are small it would / could help.

Any interior crossing walls ? That could maybe do the same thing??



   
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 02:59:35 PM
Your not gonna p** me off, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas, Like I said in the beginning, I don't pretend to be a carpenter.

Peg668 your advice on this site is the reason I'm here.


Haven't thought much about small closets or shelves up there but I can see how some angle bracing on the inside from joists to pony wall would certainly help.

I was cruising pretty good for a few days on the cabin, then stopped to decide about the dormer. By the time I figued out I was gonna go with a Shed style and how to do it, the weather took a crap up here and after that I've been hauling grain.  I'm hoping to get back on it next week and get the roof done at least. I have a small window of opportunity to pull it out to the river on skids with the big 4WD tractor or else I will likely be doing it with more snow than I want and colder temps.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 03:12:46 PM
Quote from: MadisonsDad on November 28, 2008, 02:59:35 PM


Your not gonna p** me off, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas, Like I said in the beginning, I don't pretend to be a carpenter.

Peg668 your advice on this site is the reason I'm here.




Thanks! It's hard for me to keep track of who's building what and re -reading every thread to remember who's doing exactly what  takes to long , or I'm not willing to take the time , I guess thats more correct.


  So I try to tread lightly when asking , or I avoid asking in hopes some one with more tact , like Glenn or Mtn D , bridge the subject. But in this cae I saw the pony walls and in the post after that saw no one addressing the issue.

We're glad you like the site , It is pretty cool that it works as well as it does really.  c* Most forums turn into written shouting matches  :(


  Get that grain in  8) the cabin will still be there , nothing to delaminate on it, she'll pretty much all wood so far.  8)


     
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on November 28, 2008, 06:06:37 PM
Quote from: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 03:12:46 PM


Thanks! It's hard for me to keep track of who's building what and re -reading every thread to remember who's doing exactly what  takes to long , or I'm not willing to take the time , I guess thats more correct.


  So I try to tread lightly when asking , or I avoid asking in hopes some one with more tact , like Glenn  or Mtn D , bridge the subject. But in this cae I saw the pony walls and in the post after that saw no one addressing the issue.

We're glad you like the site , It is pretty cool that it works as well as it does really.  c* Most forums turn into written shouting matches  :(


  Get that grain in  8) the cabin will still be there , nothing to delaminate on it, she'll pretty much all wood so far.  8)


     

d*
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: PEG688 on November 28, 2008, 06:20:00 PM
Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 28, 2008, 06:06:37 PM


some one with more tact , like Glenn  

     


d*


So are you saying Glenn doesn't have tact?  You may be right , sometimes, but in general Glenn uses tact or at least he gets the job done without fear for being banned , seeing he's sort of ban proof.  ::) 

But I'd rather he ask some of the questions rather than me. 

So it shows how "tactful " I think I am  c*


   
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 28, 2008, 11:49:28 PM
[rofl2]  ...and I thought I was always tactful.  John -- have you been looking in the off topics.  I am anti-authoritarian... anti-political...sometimes a bit crude? hmm ....maybe that's where I lose it.... :)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: considerations on November 30, 2008, 10:43:29 AM
Glenn - just keep saying what you think.  I can't begin to tell you how much I learned from your posts.  Not to mention how much I've smiled because of some of them.  This could have been a much harder journey without your input. 

This particular little cabin and the progress on restoring it has a particular interest to me.  I've always really liked dovetailed corners.  I'm really pleased to see someone take care to preserve it. 
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: glenn kangiser on November 30, 2008, 11:04:37 AM
Thanks so much for the encouragement, Considerations. 

I'm going to get a board and write that quote on it so I can hit myself in the head with it whenever I forget. d*  rofl

It makes it all worth while when I am able to help someone learn something they wouldn't have otherwise and be successful with building their own shelter which they may not have been able to do without that knowledge.

I know our other members that help feel the same way.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Jens on January 03, 2009, 02:37:55 PM
Any recent progress reports?
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: PEG688 on January 03, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
 
Ya any updates? I'm thinking with the weather like it's been not much but thinkin been done.

Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on January 06, 2009, 10:57:15 PM
Sorry to report the weather has decided who's boss lately. It's either below zero with well below zero wind chills or it's snowing.  No cabin progress to report.

I did spend some time in early December building our "backyard" ice rink for the second year in a row. 48' x 28' ice sheet with a fish house/warming house and custom lighting. In case anyone is curious it takes 3,000 gallons of water for this size if you have an area that is within 3" of being level.  I know this because this year I got smart and instead of using the faucet from the house I loaded up our 1,500 gallon water tank from the farm into the back of a grain truck and made two trips to town and back. I have connections with a facility in town that uses alot of water daily. I still ran hoses from the basement to do some finish work with hot water which really works well. I made a custom hand held zamboni that distributes the water evenly on a 4' wide path and it attachs to the garden hoses which I drag back and forth. There's nothing like wrestling with 150' of frozen garden hose when I'm done and trying to get it into the heated shop before it freezes and brakes.


I can't describe what it's like being out there after dark flooding in temps around zero, steam rising, water freezing and cracking and taking shape. It's one of my all time favorite things to do. I even had a big shooting star burn across the sky one night this year. Maybe your thinking this cold weather has frozen part of my brain as well but up in these parts hockey is king and with a rink like this at our disposal the family really puts it to good use. We actually just got called in by the boss (mom) because it's bedtime for the kids.

Oh and those 2x4's you see in the photo's holding up the lights, well they are supposed to be purlins across my rafters on the cabin. I keep telling myself once it warms up a bit I'm gonna get back at it but it's gonna be hard. We haven't been above 10 degrees without it snowing since early December. It's been hard on the firewood pile this year
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on January 06, 2009, 11:06:01 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/11s19h0.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on January 06, 2009, 11:08:13 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2q9dk4m.jpg)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2mqooxv.jpg)
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Redoverfarm on January 06, 2009, 11:08:48 PM
My Minister does the same thing for his kids.  They are into hockey big.  Suppose to have a party there Sunday but I don't think the weather will cooperate. We got a warm spell  ???  but it is suppose to cool off in the next couple of days.  Been raining for two and freezing rain tonight.  Will see.  Glad to here from you.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: bobtheengineer on January 06, 2009, 11:18:56 PM
Thats pretty neat.  I just had to chime in.  I used to live up in your neck of the woods.  My wife actually worked at the hospital in Roseau.  I did live in Warroad though, home of your arch enemies. ;)  Nice country.
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: MadisonsDad on January 06, 2009, 11:28:55 PM
Arch enemies indeed!!! I think it's a big part of what keeps these people going up here in the frozen tundra this time of year. That and ice fishing (which has been very good but now the big lake has alot of snow on it, making travel tough).

A new spin to the rivalry is girls hockey. Warroad ranked #2 and Roseau #3 in the state. They just played a great game last Saturday at the gardens with Warroad winning 2-1 in overtime.  Meanwhile it's storming outside with the snow just dumping down.

If anyone is interested in more Roseau county high school sports results just let me know...LOL
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Jens on January 07, 2009, 04:35:41 PM
That is so rad!  Nice job dad! [cool]
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on January 07, 2009, 04:40:15 PM
That is so cool! My mom's family did that when she was young. Our yard has never been level enough, though. :( We do get to skate at the indoor rink in town for free, but no hockey...
Title: Re: 14 x 15 Hand Hewn Cabin
Post by: Bishopknight on January 07, 2009, 06:11:00 PM
I'm terribly sorry for your loss