Insuring your land and cabin

[AdironDoc]

My neighbor has said that I need not worry about insuring my acreage. In New York at least, there is a release from general liabilities resulting from those traversing your land, if such land is unimproved, particularly so if posted in which case they are expected to have understood they are trespassing. An exception is any major hazards (mine shafts, pits, etc.) that the land owner either knew about or is unusually hazardous.

Nevertheless, I'll be adding insurance for personal injury, and of course, insuring my cabin for replacement value. I may be seen as having deep pockets by some and that's always a concern. I've heard stories from many who had difficulty in finding insurers willing to deal with recreational land and cabins that are off-grid. Has anyone met with difficulty because of this, and, have you found any particular carriers to be friendly with policies covering off-grid, recreational dwellings?

Doc


From NYS DEC:
Q. Is posting required to protect landowners from liability?

A. No. Whether the property is posted or not, the General Obligations Law protects landowners from liability for non-paying recreationalists on their property. Because of this protection, recreational liability lawsuits against rural landowners are uncommon. Recreational activities covered include: hunting; fishing; organized gleaning (picking); canoeing; boating; trapping; hiking; cross-country skiing; tobogganing; sledding; speleological (caving) activities; horseback riding; bicycle riding; hang gliding; motorized vehicle operation for recreation; snowmobiling; non-commercial wood cutting or gathering; and dog training. This protection does not apply in cases of willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against dangers. [/color]

[rick91351]

In fact I think one of my first posts was about this.  I could not find anyone interested in liability insurance on bare ground.  So I posted here and also came blank except for a company like in Maine.

My insurance agent could not find an underwriter.  When he did it was really not do able.  Seems at the time it was like a thousand dollars.  So we just dropped that idea.  A couple years later I was talking to AARP as our auto insurance was climbing sky high.  They shot us a real good deal on the auto and home then I told them about ranch property and they refused to insure any of it!

So went to an independent agent.  You can not believe the savings we received and same coverage plus they found a underwriter for the ranch.  Turns out it is a division of our original insurance company.  The one that wanted the 1000 dollars but this sub company and they took it for like $100.   It is a division of Farmer Insurance Group.  The auto insurance company is another company, as is the home owners if it remember right.  Moral of the story shop around unless you do not mind huge premiums       

[AdironDoc]

Good advice, thanks. Just got off the phone with Geico. At first they were tripping over themselves to underwrite. They heard it's off-grid and gave me the bum's rush

Next up, Allstate  Wish me luck! 

[Squirl]

Do they really ask if it is connected to the power grid?

[rick91351]

Our hick-up was bare ground i.e. no house or cabin yet has two regular RV hook ups and does have power.  We take our fifth wheel up on the spring and out in the late fall.  We are up there a lot!  I think it comes down to statistics.  Anything out of the ordinary make the underwriters run away because they can not put a risk figure to it.......       

[rwanders]

I've had no problem adding what is often called a general liability coverage to my homeowner's or auto policies, I get 1,000,000 coverage for about $100 a year. First of all, you only need that much coverage if your net assets or net worth exceeds the standard liability coverage which is usually 300,000. Even the greediest lawyer will not try to pry 1,000,000 out of someone whose net worth is low-----judgments are fine but, if you have no assets or cash to seize they are essentially worthless. The defendant just files bankruptcy and discharges the judgment. As stated above, empty land is not sued---the owner of the land can be if the tort results from HIS activities or negligence. The common tort is auto accidents and after that they sometimes can result from workers on your property---attention to contractor's insurance is your best protection. If the workers are covered by their employer's Worker's Compensation Policies it is very difficult for them to sue anyone--most states don't allow them unless the defendant is grossly negligent and that is usually a difficult standard to meet.

If you have large net worth and want to insure against tort claims----buy an "umbrella liability policy", available from most insurers. They are quite inexpensive---precisely because the risk is pretty low for the insurer. If you are really concerned, consult an attorney, bring your financial statement and he/she can  advise you based upon your net worth and what kind of activities you routinely do. Generally, if you don't have an "insurable interest" (large net worth) no one needs to buy a large policy and reputable insurance agents will advise you against buying one.

Full Disclosure:  I am not an Attorney. I do have a large liability policy only because I have fairly large net assets exceeding the standard policy limits.   

[rick91351]

rwanders I wonder if the reason in Alaska this is a might be a more common thing.  I mean we shopped and shopped and very, very little interest.  We tried umbrellas and companies that cater to farms and ranches.  They claimed it was no permeant residency on the property.  This is only 640 acres.  If we owned like some of our friends that own two or three thousand acres. They never see some of it only once or twice a year when gathering cattle or harvesting a crop.  Us we pretty well keep an eye on things. Which is more of a liability?     

[HoustonDave]

Spoke with my agent today about exactly this. We only have 1.6 acres.  He stated that if it was "lotted or blocked" (as in Lot #)then it could be automatically covered under our current policy with no issue.  However, if it was "acreage" we would have to do a new policy with an extension to cover the extra property.   He seemed confident we could do it.  However I don't know what the result would have been if it had been 150 acres. 

[rick91351]

It also seems we ran into that but that was a few years back and do not remember all the ins and outs.  Seems without a physical adress to the property they did not like that as well.  So we went to get one.  Found out that they are only let out when the building permit is let out by that country.  

Like I say we shopped and shopped and talked to a lot of agents.  We also talked to a lot land owners we know asking them who the heck is your agent?  And explained all the problems we were having to get more leads.  But they are out there and you just have to find them.    

[rwanders]

Rick, What kind of activities are you doing on your acreage that represent a significant risk you need to insure against? If it is undeveloped it would be a rare owner who would seek a liability policy specific to their property. Essentially, there is such a small demand for a policy like you are looking for, the insurers cannot sell enough to "spread the risk" and charge enough to even cover their administrative overhead. I had no problem insuring my cabin in Alaska through USAA---did it online in about 10 minutes for complete coverage---building valued at about $150,000--policy cost under $300 including $ 1,000,000 liability. On the other hand, a home I own in Florida is covered by a company recommended by USAA because they stopped writing new policies in Florida after a series of hurricanes a few years ago. If, by chance, you can insure with USAA I very highly recommend them. They have been rated #1 or #2 by virtually every insurance rating entity for years. I believe many of the veterans on this forum probably insure their homes and autos through them. I'm not an agent--just a very satisfied customer.

[bgreene]

I am new to this forum, but I have read everything written under insuring your land and cabin with great interest, as we are in the same boat somewhat. I have been told by several friends that if you are farming or producing some sort of agricultural product, it might be possible to get at least liability insurance through your local Grange. This would insure against your farm product harming someone who ingested it or if a "tourist" to your farm accidentally was injured. I will know more soon, as I intend to join my local Grange, now that we have moved onto our land (while living in a motor home there). This is a great topic, thanks!

[rick91351]

Rick, What kind of activities are you doing on your acreage that represent a significant risk you need to insure against? If it is undeveloped it would be a rare owner who would seek a liability policy specific to their property.
snip ------snip-------

We started seeking a policy on the advise of our attorney who is still our attorney.  And this was after we turned the ranch into a trust.  This coupled with the advise of our then insurance agent when we were going over home and building values and personal property.  That was first and foremost.  Second:  Part of this property I am the forth generation in this family to own it so there is a certain responsibility to protect it.

Advise of the attorney also was to post private property signs.  This gives people something to shoot at.  Actually we have not had any signs shot up!        

I really found it strange when like I say AARP / Hartford found out we had the property they dropped the whole contract.  This was for two cars, two pick-ups, a 3200 sq ft ranch style home, trailers and a shop here.  It included an umbrella policy of up to $1,000,000 specifically including protection if injured riding in a common carrier van.  The railroad has disconnected themselves from such liability via contracting out crew shuttles.  Thus we can not seek damages under the Federal Railway Labor Act if involved in a wreck or negligent actions of a driver because it is a common carrier and must seek damages from them.  

Then on the phone after filling out paper work and going over things one last time.  They asked if we had any more properties and I told them about the ranch and it being bare ground.  By now it was a mute point.  I had given up on ever finding any liability that was affordable for that property.  I explained I was not looking to cover that at all.  He told me right then this was not good.  They would get back to us.

They dropped us like a rock even after they had collected moneys.  They in fact had started taking money out of our checking account via auto-withdrawal.  Life was good, they were even going to disconnect us from Farmers.  Suddenly we did receive a letter and our paper work returned.  Listed reasons was we owned two quads and bare ground properties.  This was not for medical or anything about the quads.  Lucky they never got a hold of Farmers and they deposited the money right back in to the account.  AARP and The Hartford still sends us nice letters wanting to be our agent.  I am no longer in AARP and the Hartford can just go to ......                        

[Squirl]

It also seems we ran into that but that was a few years back and do not remember all the ins and outs.  Seems without a physical adress to the property they did not like that as well.  So we went to get one.  Found out that they are only let out when the building permit is let out by that country.  
   

That is interesting.  In our area, to get a physical address, all you need to do is call the county 911 emergency office. They figure if people are going to be at their properties using them as recreational or agricultural (both exempt from the building permit process) they want to be able to get emergency services even if there is no building there.  This is especially important in farm country were there can be a lot of farm accidents. (tractors flipping). I could see getting an insurance policy for any property especially vacant ones used for agricultural purposes.  You don't want to have to pay when someone falls off a horse or gets their arm stuck in a haybine. The county 911 coordinates with the post office, but only with the building department when you apply for a building permit.  I have a "vacant" property that I use for minor recreational and agricultural with a mail box that I receive mail in.  Putting up a mail box with large address numbers is a requirement of county 911.  In our area you need an address to get a building permit.  Nobody seems to deal with you without an address.

[rick91351]

That is interesting.  In our area, to get a physical address, all you need to do is call the county 911 emergency office. They figure if people are going to be at their properties using them as recreational or agricultural (both exempt from the building permit process) they want to be able to get emergency services even if there is no building there.  This is especially important in farm country were there can be a lot of farm accidents. (tractors flipping). I could see getting an insurance policy for any property especially vacant ones used for agricultural purposes.  You don't want to have to pay when someone falls off a horse or gets their arm stuck in a haybine. The county 911 coordinates with the post office, but only with the building department when you apply for a building permit.  I have a "vacant" property that I use for minor recreational and agricultural with a mail box that I receive mail in.  Putting up a mail box with large address numbers is a requirement of county 911.  In our area you need an address to get a building permit.  Nobody seems to deal with you without an address.

Hey Sguirl:

Right on!  We did that.  We went to 911 office small house annex close to the county court house.  They here as well hand out the adresses of course.  They explain no building permit no adress.  We explain our plans and the RV pads and the septic system.  Flat no building permit no adress.  We go to Southwest District Health for the septic system permit.  I explain no adress.  They say that is cool, "We do this all the time.  Need a GPS or legal description, or physical directions."

As far as the 911 or emergency response all our EMT's up there carry GPS and radios.  So you call 911, they dispatch an EMT that is local.  Most all the ranch gals up there are EMT and are very good at it.  They seem to keep their cool very well, even in some very ugly situations.  A couple are doubly good; in fact and have had a lot of training.  So you give 911 a general location and where you will met them.  Then you lead them into where the problem person or people are located.

I have indeed talked to the mail carrier up there about receiving mail there in case we need to.  Mail comes on Mondays, Wednesday and I think Fridays.  You can not have a mail box that they put mail into from what I understand until you have an adress.  It can be delivered to the store in my name but the store adress.  Or any of the ranches up there.  It arrives in a heat sealed white plastic envelope from what I have seen.  I am not totally sure on that but does give a lot of peace of mind.  I sure would hate to have someone see my Knitting and Crocheting Today Magazines or my wives Gun, Knives and Ammo Publications                   



   

[rocking23nf]

I buy insurance to cover me from fire and storm damage. Thats my main concern.

[AdironDoc]

After asking Geico and Allstate, my current companies, I've struck out with the other "major players". None want to cover the land or cabin after they hear it has no street address and will be off grid. 911 will give my guest cabin a physical address as it fronts the road. The main camp and cabin, being 2 miles through unimproved woods.. not as lucky.

My main concerns are twofold. First, replacement value of the cabin and its contents, in case of vandalism or fire, etc. Second, when a visitor has a few too many and takes a dive into my creek and misses. Not sure I'm protected under DEC recreational use indemnity laws as the land by the cabin is now "improved" and, visiting my cabin is not considered "recreational use", however many drinks you've had. 

[nysono]

I called State Farm (Ive been with them 20+ yrs) on mine and they said they would not insure it until I had the Cert of Occ.  Because I am not a certified contractor they will not touch it until then,  after the CO then we can talk, hopefully I can get something on it.....

[Minicup28]

I got my insurance thru an independent agent from New York Mutual:  http://www.nycm.com/

We're located 1/2 mile off road in Schoharie county.

[SouthernTier]

Adiron-doc: I am in NY, too (Western NY, but I did have a great paddle a couple of weeks ago at Lows Lake in the 'dacks!).  Though definitely not a lawyer, I am very familiar with the General Obligations Law, which is NY's recreational use statute that protects landowners against lawsuits from people using their property (see http://www.nymbc.com/gol.html).  NY, and many other states, have these so that people aren't afraid to close off their land to recreational users for fear of liability.  If someone injures themselves, they can still sue (so you'd be out lawyer cost), but you would win, because of the GOL.  Only exception is if there is gross negligence, like open pits you know about, etc.  

So I am confortable not having insurance on my property which is essentially bare ground.  Got my shed stained last weekend, so now I am 100% done with that - really need to update my onwer-builder thread!  But that is just a shed, and I don't have insurance on that as it is quite small - got maybe a couple grand (but also a lot of sweat!) at risk at most.  

We have umbrella libility insurance with our homeowners policy.  My wife handles all the finances, and I believe she said that they called once for an update on our circumstances, including asking about property.  She indicated we had bought the property and then noticed that our umbrella premium went up a little bit.  But never directly confirmed the connection between the umbrella and the property.  Note, that policy is through NYCM, like minicup above.

When I get to building the actual cabin someday, then it will be a whole nother story I suppose.

[Minicup28]

Another firm that I have done business with that will insure cabins is New York Mutual Underwriters.

http://www.newyorkmutual.com/

[MountainDon]

State Farm had no problems with our cabin. The premium is about the same for the in town home though, even though the replacement value of the cabin is many times less than the in town home. That of course is because of the remote location, no fire hydrants, middle of a forest that has burned in places before and will do the same again, and so on. We also have our in town home with them and have for a very long time. They have been good on the few claims we've had.