I thought I would get this started after lurking around here for awhile. I am building a 16 X 36 1 1/2 story in utah. I have a very tight budget. I purchased one acre last fall in the mountain 80 miles away from my home. It is at about 7500 feet in elevation in a gated community. I only payed 7000 for it. Got it for about 1/2 it's apprased value. Lots of pine and aspen. The land has a 8 percent slope. Great views. The problem is that I live in the state of UTax and fees are going to almost cost as much as the cabin.
1500 Road improvement
2000 Land inspection
5000 Building permit
3 - 5000 perk test and septic tank.
This puts me at around 10 to 12 thousand before I put a shovel in the ground. This really hurts the budget. I figure I have around 15000 left to build the cabin. I have a deadline to submit the plans to get the engineer stamp for the building inspector by the end of febuary. That will be another 500 dollars.
Here are the plans.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/hpqscan0001.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/hpqscan0002.jpg)
I will be looking for lots of input before I finialize them. One thing to note I have 9 kids due to a hers and mine situation, so minimizing waste and maximizing space is very important. During this winter I have been picking up things at 25 cents on the dollar in preparation to start building in april when the snow melts and I can get to the lot. So far I have picked up the following items:
10 windows $300 most 36X48 (combination of clearence sales at home depot and classifieds)
large newer wood buring stove $250
40 2X6 and 2X4 $50 Lowes clearence
45 watt Solar panels $190 Harbor Frieght sale
50 watt wind generator $170 ebay
3 gpm tankless water heater $200 sportsman guide
1 deer head $50 (what is a cabin with out a deer head)
I have also been playing with led and compact florecent lighting. The cabin will be off the grid so this is major. I will need some help on this. I would like to go all dc due to it's efficency but I haven't been able to find much info on this kind of wiring on a house. Also it seems to be very expensive compared to AC.
A few more details on the design. The cabin will have an 8 foot porch on the front and a 4 foot utility area on the back for propane, water heater, battery and inverter storage. It will be a pier and beam foundation with pier spacing every 6 feet and beams will be 3 2X10 PT. The piers will be 8 inch concrete. The floor joists will be 2X10 - 16. Will 2 X10's be big enough or should I move up to 2X12? These are 30 percent more expensive.
More questions to come!!!
Welcome to the forum, suburbancowboy. I don't see the floor on the second story working that way. I think it might be a good investment to get John's plan and modify it to suit your needs.
The Victoria's Cottage has 16 wide plans and you could leave the side addition off if you want. This would keep you from guessing what proper sizes are and likely save you money in the process. :) Very reasonable price - check it out.
http://www.countryplans.com/victoria.html
w*
Northern UT? All of UT has great beauty; I love the SE corner in particular.
There were good reasons why Edison and his DC power lost out to George Westinghouse (and Nikolai Tesla) and AC power. Much of that centered around wire sizes and AC being easier to transmit over distances (less loss of power, easy to change voltages up and/or down).
In my opinion, DC would be feasible in a small cabin (my definition of small would be up to maybe 300 sq ft>) if all you are powering are lights. But then the lights need to have DC ballasts and those are more expensive as a rule than AC devices. RV's use 12 VDC fluorescents; that is a viable source. There are also CFL's designed to operate on DC voltages; 12, 24 and even 48. They cost several times the cost of a 120 VAC CFL. If you want to have wall switches to operate DC devices be aware that the usual home light switch is designed to work on AC only; they burn out quickly on DC power.
For low voltage DC the wire sizes needed to carry the power get quite large fairly quickly if you are trying to really keep the power losses low.
Use of DC also precludes, or at least makes it more difficult to use convenience appliances. That may be what you are aiming to do, so in that case everything is fine.
I simply bring up these points to illustrate that there may be pitfalls to going in the strictly DC direction. I've been there. When we first began our cabin plans, I was going to do DC. Later the plan was modified to use DC and AC; AC was added for things like a microwave and a TV. That double system proved to be a crazy, expensive, confusing idea. We are going 90% AC. The 10% DC are for three DC powered lights and a DC powered ceiling fan.
Anyhow, for a small cabin DC can be made to work. Others do it and are happy. Just think it all through. Lastly, make sure whatever you plan will be accepted by the inspectors, since you've already mentioned septic and other code inspections.
Looking forward to seeing this come together. :) :)
Hey glen I have purchased the plans from don. Many of my Ideas come from the plans. Also many of the ideas comes from the 16 X24 that is listed on the home page. I love the Idea of a catwalk on the upper floor. I just needed more room and beefed things up a bit for the utah snow.
Don thanks for the reply I always love reading your reponses. They are full of great informations. Based on your comments it has swade me into abort the DC plans and wiring AC. I understand about 80 percent on what I need to do. batteries to invert, invert to fuse box then standard ac wiring after that. Do you have any good references on how to set this up. I have been getting bits and pieces from the internet but nothing complete like regulators and meters etc.
By the way the lot is in central utah near mount pleasant. Very rural.
Central UT is right. :D Just about dead center. I haven't spent much time around there.
As for how to setup the DC parts of an alternate system, I don't recall any one place with a step by step guide. There might be some, I just can't say for certain.
I will be installing our PV system this spring and plan to photograph and document the process. There will be 624 watts worth of PV panels, Outback controller and inverter, a bunch of golf cart batteries and a few peripherals.
We've started an Off Grid Power topic.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6059.0
That's where I'll post info as things progress or random thoughts occur. Jump in. :D
I'll also be posting info in my cabin thread as it progresses.
PS y0u got the plans from John I think. I just hang out here a lot. :D
Hey, suburbancowboy, you know the Drapers - Bob does or did? wood carving - Barry ran their sawmill with him - some have moved I think. I haven't seen them in years. I took them flying around the Wasatch and Mt.Pleasant a bit.
Sorry don't know them. Lots of people here.
I have a couple of questions for the group. Last week I purchased a 3 gpm tankless water heater on sale for 200 dollars. Runs on propane and batteries for the spark.
Does many people use these?
What have your results been?
Also I have decided to go all AC on my wiring. Will a 1500 Watt pure sign inverter 3000 Watt peak, run most applicances? On the large wattage side I will run a vacumn, small tv/dvd player and celling fan. The rest will be just lights.
Re the 1500 watt inverter. That should run those mentioned things fine. The ceiling fan should be a low user, more so if you seek out one with an energy star rating, not all are. No microwave?
With 1500 watts (= 12.5 amps at 120 V) you might have a problem if the vacuum was being used and another moderate power use item was turned on at the same time. That's one reason why I went with 3500 watts continuous.
Check the time period allowed for that surge rating, some are only for a few seconds.
Tankless heaters work well in most cases. They do need a certain flow rate to turn on and keep heating, make sure it will support you method of water use. We don't use one, but many do.
Is it an interior or exterior mount? Curious.
We have a Bosch HX125 and like it. To prevent scale and early failure of the heater, keep it no hotter than the maximum heat you need to use - Scalding hot water will cause scale quicker in the tubes of the heater.
I put a catwalk on my 1 1/2 story in Alaska----goes from a 10x24 loft and 14' from there to a 10x24 2nd floor deck/balcony---love it!
Thanks for the replies. I will keep the heat down on water heater. It will be kept in a utility shed built on the back of the house along with the power and propane.
I have another question for the group. I was going to run the chimney from the fireplace next to the catwalk up to the roof to get the max heat out of the pipes, but I started pricing it last night and to run 20 feet of pipe is going to run 1500 dollars approx. So I thought maybe I could move the fireplace back to the wall next to the bar in the kitchen and run the chimney out the wall and then up on the out side. I would then only need 10 to 12 feet of pipe. I would then put a firemans pole or a spiral slide where the fireplace is now for the kids to come down. Does anybody have an opion weither the extra expence would be worth it to run the long pipe on the inside? I'm thinking that with a large fireplace and small cabin it won't make much difference.
A chimney that is a straight up run inside the building is preferable to a chimney that goes out the wall, turns and goes up the outside wall. The interior straight run will be warmer and draw better especially when starting a fire or with a low fire.
How much of that straight up the inside is insulated pipe and how much is black pipe? From the price it sounds like it's mostly insulated pipe. You are not going to be getting a lot of heat radiated into the interior from a run of insulated pipe. If extra heat is the goal a good run of black pipe is what is needed. Of course that requires proper clearances from combustibles and any possible human contact.
Also, on going out the sidewall and then up, you still need a good run of the insulated pipe to get the end of the chimney high enough above a roof surface within a 10 ft radius. IIRC, it needs to be 2 ft above any roof within 10 ft. I have to confirm that and will correct of need be.
like this...
(http://www.fplc.ca/Information/SafetyTips/WoodSafety/Reed/07_guide_files/chimheight.gif)
I was going to say the same thing Don said - Insulated inside won't put out heat - black is cheap.
Thanks for the chimney info I will check the price of the black pipe.
I have another question. I will be using 8 inch sono tubes for the piers. What is the recommended configuration for the rebar. 1, 2 or 4 pieces of rebar in the tube?
I also thought I would post a picture of what I will see out the front door.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0251.jpg)
Suggestions below but going through your top posting I see that you mentioned engineer --- he will be the guy to design the reinforcement - possibly you could suggest some of the below to him as it may be something he would approve or he will simply say -- no --- you need x bars of x size with x inches bent into the footing or some such.
I would suggest at least two verticals of a size to equal the bolts tying the house to the pier, with 3/8 horizontal rings around the top of the verticals just because I have had to build similar before. The ones I built were for light poles and had 4 verticals, 3 tie rings around the top and some at about 18 inch intervals below.
For critical issues you would likely want to consult a local professional but for myself I would be happy knowing that the concrete was securely bound together with the reinforcement. Others may have suggestions of what they did or their engineer recommended. I did that in my Shop also and no problems.
Lighter may be satisfactory but I don't know for sure.
OK I have an update on what has been going on with this project. I spent all spring trying to get the permits that I needed to start. This took 3 months to get everything together. ( Fire marshal inspection, ceptic and perk test, etc) >:( I ended up having to go to an engineer to design my plans. My hand drawn plans wasn't detailed enough for the building permit. So I spend 1300 hundred dollars to make the plans look pretty. Well I get to the building inspector and they the cabin won't be wide enough. And I go what the heck. Well in sanpete county utah you have to have a 20' X 20' minimum. Well nobody let me know that this was a requirement. So back to the engineer and more money. After loosing another 3 weeks back to the building inspector. I get another building inspector checking things out this time. Everything breezes thru and I finally got the permit. :) It only took 4 months and 9000 dollars. Well now it is to late in the year to get the whole thing dried in so I go to plan B. When I got the building permit I had them include a 12 X 16 shed. So I decided to build the shed/bunk house first. This will give a place to sleep and store our tools next year. It will also hold the 4 wheelers and over flow of guest in the future. So now I will post some of my progress over the next few day of where we are at.
Here is a pictur of the lot before the road is cut in.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0387.jpg)
Next is the road cut in with the pad
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0391.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0390.jpg)
Finally we get started on the bunkhouse. 4 X 4 pt post with a layer of tar in cement. These should last 20 years.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0439.jpg)
Now for the beams 2 16 2X8 pt
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0441.jpg)
Then the floor joist made of 2X6
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0450.jpg)
Then finally the deck. This took 4 weeks to get to this point working only on saturday 6 hours a day. Boy I wish I had my 30 year old body back. This was the work crew for the day. My younger step son out works the old 4 to 1. O well it is good experience for them.
Sorry here is the picture :P
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0455.jpg)
w* back.
Nice set of photos. Great views. Terrible fees. :o
I surely hope you don't have to pay state income tax after all those fees.
Strange requirement for min. of 20x20; it's usually a square footage requirement which your original plans met. ???
Look forward to watching the progress.
The western states have some of the toughest code requirments. Colorado is bad too.
I'd get some bracing on those piers before I went much further.
Lovely spot for a cabin btw. :)
Great views. Nice spot. Good luck with the build.
I look forward to watching the progress.
I have a few minutes so I will post some further past progress. This day my father and brother in law came up and helped me frame the walls. It was a hot day. 90+ degrees at the end.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0456.jpg)
by the way if you have the help put the sheeting on for the outside walls before you raise the wall. it saves a ton of time and work.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0457.jpg)
Here we are about done at the end of a long and hot day.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0458.jpg)
Here is some of the local wild life on the mountain. We see deer almost every time we go up.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0444.jpg)
The one week that we didn't work on the bunk house I took a couple of the girls up the canyon on our horses.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0451.jpg)
very nice property...!
on the ac-dc i vote for ac...there's enough of us in this forum to get your lights on some way...some how...
and we'll make sure ya get totally confused in the process also...!
you do need to think about what u need to run in the begining to survive and also what you may want to expand into later on...
the later part is where most mess up...buying something that seems ok but is not large enough or expandable for use later on...
the only big mistake i see so far is the deer head in the prep stuff...
i probably would of went with one of those talking singing largemouth bass on a plaque kinda things...
fits the cabin wall mount stuff...probably coulda found a used one for 10-15 bucks...
would of left 30 bucks or so to buy nails...Dan...
P.S. that's a lot of money to spend to get to build...
Beautiful area & horses :) making good progress!
The next week we started the roof.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0459.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0460.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0461.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0462.jpg)
Here is my father in law helping with the roof. He is a monkey man. 62 years old and he works my butt under the table. I guess that is what you get when you put a construction man against a computer programmer.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0465.jpg)
Here are some more progress photos. My crazy father in law was all over the roof making his wife sick.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0467.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0468.jpg)
West side of the bunkhouse.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0470.jpg)
I have more that I still need to download from the camera.
Any updates?
On stove pipes: I've found that here in Washington only certain types of stoves are allowed and most of them are catalytic type stoves -- which require insulated pipe the entire way or so I'm told.
However, a 3 or 4 foot section is about $100 so I figured I'd spend $600 to $700 for piping.
I've purchased the Vermont Aspen but haven't read the book on it yet so don't know if it requires insulated pipe (I doubt it since it isn't a catalytic) but I'm facing a similar issue in terms of placement. I want this one on the wall so planned to install it under the small loft on the end with the pipe running to under the loft (per clearances) and then out the wall and up through the lookout/roof on the west wall. I'll end up with about 14 feet of pipe outside the cabin.
One thing I was lead to beleive is that the insulated pipe helped create a better draft even when run outside (two 90 degree bends I'm guessing) becuase it's insulated. Also, cleaning is a breeze this way becuase you use a T outside and this has the stove pipe going up and an access point under it -- thus you can clean it out by simply opening the access and running a brush though with no mess outside.
However, as Don points out, I suspect you lose heating by running the pipe this way.
Another thing to consider though, is that Vermont Aspen is an 18,000 BTU unit while most other small stoves I found were 40,000 to as much as 100,000 BTU's and those units won't matter since they put out so much heat you'll be asking to get rid of it :) Unless in a big cabin!
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-95622685483394/duratech5to8.pdf
You might find this helpful -- also on their site I see pipe around $50-$90 per piece...not sure of length yet.
Great pics! I'm jealous! Geez...time to get back it! OK maybe when it's a little warmer :P
I was wrong on the stove pipe prices by the way -- it's $50+ and then add a specific amount for length my test on SS double walled pipe was $180 for a 4 foot length -- of course that's exterior so it's more expensive.
It was the interior pipe that was $100 so doing more inside saves $$$
OK here are the updated pictures from the fall.
With the ten foot walls we have plenty of head room.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0479.jpg)
Here I am nearing completion with the roof ladder that I got the idea from this site. It worked great.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0482.jpg)
Here is one completed end on the up stairs.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0507.jpg)
Here is the down stairs as it neared completion. Notice the snow out side. This was early october but it was a very warm day and we finished the inside that day.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0505.jpg)
Here is the inside on the other end.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0504.jpg)
Here is the completed shot of the out side. I have some trim to put on the outside that I will paint as the same color as the roof.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/PICT0509.jpg)
The following week it warmed up a bit and we brought most of the family up to the bunk house. I had purchased a small portable propane heater and brought it up with us. It was very warm in the cabin when we got there. As the sun went down I turned on the heater for an hour. I got to warm so I turned it off. After we ate dinner, watch a movie on the laptop and played some games we went to bed. It got down to 25 that night and most of us slept with the covers off most of the night. It was amazing how 6 people kept the cabin warm all night. In the morning it was still comfortable with a jacket on.
I still need to finish the trim and put a deck on by the door to drive the 4 wheelers in when it will be used as a storeage shed.
Total cost of the cabin, including buying some tools and a generator came to about 5000 dollars. It was about 2000 more than I was planning on but I did upscale it up more than the origional plans. Hopefully in the spring when I can get back up there it will still be standing with no water damage. This was the biggest project that I have ever built. Also in the spring I will be starting the big cabin which is what I started this thread for. But I will put that on a new thread when I can start the work again.
I have to give a lot of credit to my wife. She was up there almost every weekend with me doing what she could to help.
Great job on the bunkhouse. [cool]
I am looking forward to seeing the start of the bigger cabin.
I thought that I would post an update on the bunk house. We have finish some trim on the inside and have put a deck on the out side so that we can get the four wheelers in and out. I love to go up there on the weekend. There is no problems or stress up there. When I get the big cabin done it will be hare for me not to want to move there. Any way here are some pictures of the completed deck.
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/100_0060.jpg)
(https://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww170/bret7763/cabin%20foundation/100_0061.jpg)
Nice spot!
Nice project too!
PS - As mentioned earlier, some triangulated bracing on the piers is cheap insurance. Highly recommended.