Micro cars

[John_C]

There is a gentleman here in Georgia who collects micro cars.  The original Austin Mini (later Cooper) is about the largest of the cars he has in his museum.  Many were designed after WWII when European roads were in shambles, few Europeans owned cars, and gas was even more expensive than it is now in proportion to the average income.  Thought some here might want to have a look.

http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tourindex.html


The early BMW cars are interesting.    Enjoy

[glenn-k]

I'm afraid if I was stopped by that BMW police car, I wouldn't be able to stop laughing,  It probably wouldn't help any to keep me from getting a ticket. :-/

[MountainDon]

In high school there was a guy who had one of those Isetta's. They weren't very heavy. A bunch of us picked it up and put on the boulevard between two trees (front/back)   then sat around until he came out. We did help him get it back on the street.  

[John_C]

Every time I hear a BMW commercial touting performance, elegance, and mechanical sophistication, I think of one of these

I think James Bond needed one of those BMW's.

[MountainDon]

BMW official history site  
"The cars have a one-cylinder BMW motorcycle engine with a 4-speed transmission. The top speed is 53 mph, and it gets 63 miles per gallon. In 1958 you could buy one for $1,093."

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/vintage/isetta.htm

[John_C]

It seems like many of these micro cars could have been the starting place for developing more fuel efficient vehicles.


If the paradigm had been to make them slightly roomier, faster etc.  incrementally, model year by model year, now 50 years later,  we would have some very interesting, fuel efficient cars.  

[glenn-k]

In high school there was a guy who had one of those Isetta's. They weren't very heavy. A bunch of us picked it up and put on the boulevard between two trees (front/back)   then sat around until he came out. We did help him get it back on the street.  

Our vice-principal in the eighth grade had a Renault if I remember right.  We also picked it up and turned it sideways in the front entrance of the school.  Unfortunately he did hot have a very good sense of humor.  I don't remember exactly what happened but it seems it was not good.

[benevolance]

We put a Geo Metro in the lobby of our College Dorm

removed the Steel doors and carried it inside...replaced the doors...

Boy it hit the fan....

at 3 am after a dozen beers it seemed like an awesome idea...

[benevolance]

As per my rant about smaller cars with smaller engines...This is not only something that the people want...Something that we need...It is also very profitable for auto makers too

For example

here is something I came up with in the back of my mind years ago...The micro car thread made me think of it.

Take Chevrolet's most common 4 banger engine...The  2.2 litre Cavalier Engine...Now in the Cobalt...It was in the Corsica and in the later Sunbird and sunfires as well....Chevrolet made a million of em.

They are tough, cheap to work on...There are parts up the wazoo in every corner of the nation

So you want a eco car that gives 50 miles to the gallon....Simple....you just shave a cylinder off the 2.2 engine and you get a 1.8 litre 3 cylinder engine.

you change the transaxle and transmission ratios So that there is more acceleration power in lower gears at lower speeds  High gear in the transmission whether it is manual or auto is overdrive and .76:1 and the transaxle ratio is 3.73 so the final drive ratio is approximately 2.83:1 which is about perfect for Economy at highway speed....But should provide plenty of passing gear power.

The beauty of this idea is that The pistons valves rods rockers...Are already designed...No new tech is needed. No new machinery and re-tooling.

Very simple to chop off 1 cylinder of the engine and crank.. very minor re-tooling done there...this saves millions and millions in research and development and keeps costs of production way down.

Also the current ecvt manual and auto trans at chevrolet are already designed and will bolt directly to the new engine...no new tech retooling or design needed...Ditto for axles etc....

And looking at the Aveo...Which is exactly the same size as the Scion 4 door hatch....You can easily make the car a little bit lighter...

Increasing compression in the 3 cylinder engine improves efficiency and power at the same time...The higher the compression the higher efficiency fuel is burned....No need to change the pistons...Minor modification to the head will solve that problem when it is re-tooled.

So there is an easy way to increase efficiency power in the motor...without spending money...the new motor is lighter also and remember that every 100 pounds is 10% mileage increase. And every time you reduce the weight you increase the power to weight ratio making the car perform better and better.

This is a car that would be very cheap to build...There would be no mechanical issues...No dependability issues...No research or tech is needed...It could be built tomorrow.

Take a platform that they are already using like the Aveo 2 and 4 door sedan...And the 4 door wagon...And reskin them with carbon fiber panels...It allows them to give them a styling upgrade without re-designing a whole new car...Which saves time and money...And it trims a lot of weight off the car

The car would not be expensive like a Prius...It would have more power...It would give better mileage...And...Most importantly...No need to worry about expensive battery replacement in a few years.

Cheap, Dependable stylish car that gives an honest to goodness 50 miles to the gallon.... It would be an instant success...The 21st century VW Bug

[John_C]

Carbon fiber would probably make it expensive.   The body of my '95 Saturn is a plastic very similar to the common milk jug.  It has resisted old ladies & their shopping carts as well as the elements better than any other car I've owned.   When an oncoming truck lost some firewood and cracked the front left fender, a replacement was easily bolted on.  The damaged part could/should have been ground up and remolded.  It has a 1,.8 liter engine, was EPA rated at 34/40 mpg  and I have gotten about that mileage for over 200,000 miles.

In 1995 there were two Saturn SL models with more HP.  They sold better than the basic so the basic engine slowly got bigger over the years.  For a few years after '95 the number of plastic panels in the Saturns increased but the buying public never accepted them.  Last time I looked the bodies were more conventional, the basic motor was 2.2 liter and the EPA ratings were 29/35.  

One of the benchmarks for small, simple, economical, easily repaired cars was the Citroen 2CV.  I always wanted one of theses but few made it to America.  Almost 4,000,000  of these were produced in a 42 year run. Public demand for more power and features was their undoing.



The 1948 2CV featured:  (From Wikipedia, emphasis mine)

   * four wheel independent suspension that was inter-connected front to rear on the same side under certain conditions
   * leading arm front suspension
   * trailing arm rear suspension
   * front-wheel drive
   * inboard front brakes
   * small, lightweight, air-cooled flat twin engine
   * 4-speed manual transmission
   * bolt-on detachable body panels
   * front suicide doors
   * detachable full length fabric sunroof and boot lid — for load carrying versatility

[Amanda_931]

I've ridden in, or seen, a handful of those.  But the guy doesn't seem to have a Deux Chevaux (2CV).  There were a handful in Hawaii when I was there, a friend--Chet--had probably owned each of them at one time or another.   We moved one on to and across a sidewalk once so he could leave a parking lot--there was someone in the building who was fanatic about "his parking space."  Chet left what might have been a nice note to the guy, except that there wasn't a word of truth in it.  Thank you so much for leaving me room to drive out!

Don't know if I ever knew that Clive Sinclair designed a very peculiar (dry weather only!) little car.  I did once have one of his computers.  Eventually, as with all of them one side of the numbers stopped working--1-5 IIRC.  A shame because that little beast had better mathematics capability than the IBM PC of the time--and it had the same basic chip.

But my cousin's pregnant wife drove an Isetta cross country.  The minister of a church I went to had a Messerschmitt.  Friend drove a handful of us around the block in the Honda 600 convertible.  Old boyfriend still had a King Midget in his salvage yard (at one stage it was the only vehicle he had that worked--his story of driving it 10 miles or so on the Interstate in a major thunderstorm was not pretty).  Bruce Weiner doesn't seem to have a Morgan either--Vanderbilt professor had one, starter went out, not rebuildable, the Lucas people in Florida were having trouble getting one, and I guess the Morgan club didn't have a lead.  He didn't mind.  He was powerful enough in his department, that all he had to do was go sit in the car, three or four of his students would appear to push him off.  And at home he had a hill.  That went on for about a year.  

The aforementioned boyfriend loved tinkering with cars.  There were a handful of TR7's (with the rather too overbored Saab engine, they blew head gaskets and often worse) around that he had put a 1200 B210 engine in.

According to him a pretty easy conversion.

The British Light Car (I don't remember the exact definition) industry certainly did what Peter suggests.   Plenty of small Austin engines in a lot of cars, Girling hydraulics, Lucas electrics.  

And, in the early days of Rolls Royce, there were a handful of American companies making the coachwork for the (rolling chassis? or just engine/transmission--probably the former) cars shipped to this country.

I've got the last year of the Saturn where the automatic is rated at 35 mpg on the highway ('92).  For a good long time I'd get little cards from the dealer asking me to please please trade it in, it was in high demand.  

It may get that gas mileage if it's de-junked!

[benevolance]

John

I agree that public demands a car have power and options... So if you are going to build an economy box it better have comfy seats...Cold AC...Decent stereo things like that....And it has to have enough power to drive up hills and maintain speed on the freeway

That said....Cars like the Saturn keep getting bigger... the motors have way, way more cubic inches torgue and power now.... The fuel mileage is considerably less 15 years after their inception.

More proof in my opinion that the Government and Detroit are in bed together to make sure cars to not on average give 40 miles to the gallon....To make sure that we consume more and more oil each year and that the Government collects massive amounts of tax on the oil we use.

I have owned a saturn and they are a decent enough car....They were roomy and worked well....The 5 speed wagon I had gave me about 34 miles to the gallon way back when.....I was pretty happy with the mileage. I love station wagons and it is hard  to find a good economical station wagon

As for the carbon fiber panel arguement...I think that there are several types of compounds and composites... We need only to look at the after market fast and the furious replacement body kits for Hondas....To see that they can make high quality light and affordable panels for cars that are a direct bolt on.

And one of the things I am advocating here is the leggo principle. Take a proven platform...Make a few minor adjustments to it so that safety is of no concern...And plan on sticking with that basic platform for the next 10-12 years

Make all the body panels a direct bolt on so that...You can give the car a facelift in styling in a few years time to keep the new models looking fresh and stylish...without having to design a whole new car.

This sort of thing saves massive amounts of money time and research

There is a slight compromise in that the cars will never be the most advanced or radical when it comes to styling.... But I predict a movement would happen.

When people get incredible mileage from a car...When the car is the best value on the market...When it lasts as well or better than the hondas and toyotas... People get attached to them... Parents want that brand for their kids... Teens want that brand because they had one when they were in college and they remember every time the old car saved their lives by saving them so much money.

The niche Toyota and Honda had when they came to America was that they were the cheapest cars out there to buy...They were small and they gave great gas mileage....They looked like hell they rode like wheel barrows But people bought them and loved them because they saved money

The next generation toyotas and hondas now cost more than the domestic cars...But that good feeling people have about them did not go away...And owner loyalty is extremely high...No matter that they don't give that much better mileage, and they cost a considerable amount more than the domestic car....When it is time to replace the old Toyota or Honda...They have to have another Toyota or Honda...Nothing else is even considered.

With this ideology in mind...We can accept some inefficiencies in styling if it means that the cars can be built maintained cheaper than anything else on the road. If it means the consumer will turn towards that car specifically.

And you can plan on and use a platform for 10-12 years without designing a new car from scratch knowing that the public will in fact develop a following for that automobile and owner brand loyalty will dictate that they buy another even if the styling is slightly more advanced on the competition.

So I advocate bolt on components for the entire exterior shell...I advocate a exterior shell that is completely removeable.

I probably spend way too much of my free time thinking about this crap....I used to spend hours sketching cars.. designs... researching compounds for lightweight materials... I just truly believe that a easy to drive roomy compact can get 50 miles to the gallon even if Grandma or junior is driving it. And I truly believe that this car should be as cheap or cheaper than any compact out there instead of being the most expensive compact (Prius)

Glenn Want to lend me a billion dollars so I can build this thing and change the world? Anyone have bill gates phone number?

[glenn-k]

I'd  love to Peter, but have come to find out that people fail to fully appreciate things they come by too easily.  

I'm afraid I have to turn you down for your own good. :-/

[John_C]

I've poked around the Microcar Museum site for years.  I once stumbled across his parameters and I think the 2CV  and Morgan were longer than his definition of a microcar.  You and I might disagree with his definition but, hey, it's his nickel.

Now here is an interesting concept car


From the web site
"Equipped with a 103 kW/140-hp direct-injection diesel engine, the concept car consumes 4.3 litres of fuel per 100 kilometres (combined), making it 20 percent more economical than a comparable standard-production model. In accordance with the US measuring method (FTP 75) the range is around 70 miles per US gallon (combined), which is about 30 percent more than for a standard-production car. At a constant speed of 90 km/h the EU fuel consumption falls to a mere 2.8 litres per 100 kilometres – corresponding to 84 mpg in the US test programme. The concept car has a maximum speed of 190 km/h."

More info here
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7154-1-503518-1-0-0-0-0-0-69-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html

IMHO Daimler Chrysler should get this thing to market ASAP  and scrap the SmartCar project that they have already pumped over $1 Billion  into and which gets far poorer mileage and will never sell in volume in the American market.

Amanda, you've had some friends with very interesting cars.  I'd like to ride in one of those Messerschmitt's.  From what I've read they squeezed a lot of performance out of their tiny engines.

[benevolance]

You see that is what I am talking about.... that diesel car had 140 horsepower...So it would have all kinds of pep for being such a small car.

I am saying you could refine the looks a little and make it a wee bit larger so people did not feel totally cramped and that 84 miles to the gallon it gives on the highway would be less...But it would still be fantastic...Say 70 miles to the gallon on the highway and 60 miles to the gallon in the city.

These figures are double what the average run of the mill civic gets

I dunno how if diesel will ever be mainstream in America....the fuel is cleaner now...But they need special cat convertors for the Nox gas...And particulate filters as well if we want them to burn cleanly....I know that cat convertors and particulate convertors are very expensive and brutally expensive when you have to replace them when the car is about 8 years old

Plus the fact that Diesel is 25 a gallon more than gasoline does not help either.

[benevolance]

Glenn

My wife wants me to submit a proposal to the auto companies...I told her it was a waste of time...

I started drawing cars and sketching thinking about them when I was a little kid....It will just be something that I like to think about...I will always look at a new model car and make mental notes of what styling features work or don't work...Adding to the junk already floating around upstairs in the old hat holder

And you know I disagree with the sentiment that you cannot lend me a billion dollars.... You know the sentiment that Ihave to do it myself....That can do revolutionary attitude got Tucker Killed....You of all people should know that.

[glenn-k]

And I am constantly watching out for them. :-/

[benevolance]

Glenn

I was surfing around Europe car web sites tonight and I saw the Chevrolet Matiz

A little smaller than I would think Americans would go for...But looks pleasant...Moderately powered and gives 60 miles to the gallon

Without any hi tech hybrid system either!!!! Just simple concepts...Light weight, smaller design and moderately powered small engine..

Of course it would never work in America...I mean after all the car costs a whopping $9500 us dollars fully equipped...Or 7,200 pounds for you brits

In case you are wondering that is a third the price of a Prius..And more fuel economy... yes the Prius is larger...But holy crap...1/3rd the price and better mileage....I think the masses would buy it...

Gas went up 25 cents a gallon here this week...$2.45 per gallon and rising.

There would be massive waiting lists for a $10,000 car that gave a honest to goodness 60 miles to the gallon

And the Matiz had AC, Cd player ABS brakes and Airbags....So it was not some 1970's econo car on steroids or something....It is fully equipped.

[benevolance]

Another interesting concept is the emergence of reliable direct injection gasoline Engines... they are 30-40% more efficient...Slightly less power...But huge gains in fuel efficiency

I am still concerned about  the level of sophisticated cat convertors and nox convertors required to catch all the particulates.  Although the higher the compression ratio in the engine and the higher the combustion temputure the more efficient the fuel is burned and the less particulate matter is omitted.

Instead of super expensive hybrids...Why not just start producing a 3 cylinder 1.8 litre direct injection 4 door hatch that is slightly larger than the Matiz... With  a direct injection engine there should be enough economy for 50 miles to the gallon easily and you can make the car a couple inches higher, wider and longer so people do not feel cramped

We cannot stop technology...ten years from now when Lithium Sulphide batteries are mainstream...The batteries in hybrids will have twice as much power and weigh half of what they currently weigh...When this happens they will be very hard to beat in terms of mileage and performance. you have to think that as the technologies emerge the cost of the electronics and batteries will start to drop as well.

But for the next decade the Prius is a lie...Too expensive and the mileage numbers are not attainable.

I read an article about the second generation hybrid cars and they have twice the power and much lower mileage per gallon....So it seems that the hybrid technology is not going to save the world after all...

The accord hybrids have 270 horsepower and only give 37 miles per gallon...meaning you will be hard pressed to get 30 miles per galln with them in everyday driving conditions

[glenn-k]

A perfect battery was already invented for the eectric car - GM bought the right- sold it to Chevron and they shelved it.  You won't see that one again.  That is not even a conspiracy theory -- see the movie Who Killed The Electric Car.

[benevolance]

Glenn

Yes and no on the battery

You are 100% correct that a better battery was intentionally shelved...The Nickel metal hydride battery...Lithium ion and lithium suphur are leaps and bounds better than the battery Chevron and GM are holding at bay currently.

It did piss me off when GM buried the NiMH battery...I saw one of the Gm electric cars equipped with the new battery and it had double the range of the lead acid battery...Almost to the point where the little car was ectually feasible for most commuters...The chrge time was cut in half as well.

So GM did not totally shelve the idea...They did equip their electric cars with them and try them out at least :-/

These batteries were still not quite good enough to really change the market to create a paradigm shift.

The Lithium ion batteries will be close to getting it done in terms of major changes to the way we perceive electric cars energy storage and hybrids....The Lithium Sulphur and the Ceramic batteries will blow this revolution wide open...

So in that respect I am not that upset with GM....Shelving the NiMH batteries prevented an iferior product from clogging up the industry....Now we have a chance to start a true electric revolution on a better platform with a better battery

So in the end we as consumers will win!

[benevolance]

When you think about it...The LI-S batteries have a chance to give an electric car a range of 300 miles or more...Without Charging...And they have made many advances to charging technologies...Rapid charging is getting to the point where it is feasible to consider a fueling station where you pull in the electric car and plug up for 10-15 minutes and then you are ready for another 300 miles.

Before it is all said and done I think the Li-S batteries in an electric car much like the one GM built will have a range of more than 300 miles per charge.

But battery tech also needs to drive the price down...So that when batteries get replaced it does not cost 5,000 to do so... We have already seen amazing longevity breakthroughs in the new batteries...Thousands and thousands of charge cycles are possible with the new batteries.

[jraabe]

Here is a very interesting electric vehicle. It uses computer controlled motors on each wheel to give lots of torque combined with full time stability control and 4WD (thus the SUV moniker  )



http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/207689/lotus_zapx.html

The use of fast charge batteries are reported to allow for a ten minute charge up for a 300 mile range. The 7-11's of the world would love it! They would sell much more of the high margin food items - might even give the electricity away if they buy enough junk food!

The Popular Science write up on Zap's electric car calculated about a penny a mile for electric cost (that might have been for the smaller car) at any rate such a "fill up" would be about $3.00!  

Three years ago I decided the "fuel of the future" was going to be electricity - and I haven't had any reason to change my mind. This is mainly because the electric grid is, or can become, a democratized in/out network of power suppliers/customers just like the Internet is for digital communications.

[jonseyhay]

Have a look at the redox-gel battery it may be the battery of the future

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s183244.htm

http://www.pinnaclevrb.com.au/index.asp?menu=1

[benevolance]

Thank you John

Again you seem to be able to say what I want..Only much better...

I read an article ten years ago on the GM electric car and it said that the equivalent to gasoline cost.... If you were to put the price of a electric charge into like terms with the cost of gasoline...It would be like paying 13 cents a gallon

That was the instant I thought it was going to take hold

I still hate the prius because the batteries are junk and they are expensive. A used prius in my mind is worthless...But one that is 5 years old and needs the batteries replaced....yeah right! what does it cost to replace them...$6000? plus labour.

And Glenn... The Prius use the NiMH batteries very much like the ones that GM sat on and Shevled...