14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula

Started by considerations, May 06, 2008, 07:25:20 PM

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PEG688

Quote from: considerations on May 24, 2008, 05:59:01 PM



Question 1 = Do you drill holes in the 4" s 4" PT posts to match the holes in the brackets and bolt through?

  You could but it's not generally required.

If so, is that enough fastening?  Or are the other little holes in the brackets for nails, as well - or instead?

10 penny Galv. Teco nails , fill all the small holes.

Question 2 - are the usual stamped sheet metal brackets for connecting 4 x 4's sufficient for connecting the top of the posts to the beams, or should they be as hefty as the ones at the bottom of the posts?  Do these get bolted as well ( I plan to set the beams on top of the posts, not try to bolt them to the sides of the beams.)

  AC44Z 



Question 3 - I don't know where the log trucks around here go with all those trees, but most of the local lumber comes from Canada. So, faced with a 14 day wait, and the obvious weight of 24' PT 4 x 8's, I got 4 12's instead of 2 24's for the beams.

That's why there are 14 piers, one for dead center under the butted up ends of the 12' 4 x 8's 

Is there any thing I need to do to secure those butted up ends?   The bolt hole in the bracket (it is centered just like the butted ends) won't connect them, can I just nail through the little holes in the bracket?  does it matter?


  The AC44Z will work at the bottom , you could add a flat gussett / strap  plates like these ST22Z





The other end of the foundation beams are just hanging out there, not connected to anything. 
If these questions have been answered before, I apologize for the repetition, guess I'm this forum's latest field test.



Great post all the info was clear and broken out , VERY NICELY DONE!   [cool]


The "Z" stands for ZMAX required for the new ACQ PT lumber some folks use a barrier between the metal and the wood such as Grace Vycor. 

G/L PEG
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

glenn kangiser

Glad you showed up for that, Oh great Master Craftsman.  :)

It was more than chainsaw and sledge hammer stuff. d*
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


considerations

Quote from: PEG688 on May 24, 2008, 07:09:03 PM
Quote from: considerations on May 24, 2008, 05:59:01 PM

You'all are very patient, and I appreciate you taking the time....just a couple more answers would be great.

Question 1 = Do you drill holes in the 4" s 4" PT posts to match the holes in the brackets and bolt through?

  You could but it's not generally required.

If so, is that enough fastening?  Or are the other little holes in the brackets for nails, as well - or instead?

10 penny Galv. Teco nails , fill all the small holes.

Question 2 - are the usual stamped sheet metal brackets for connecting 4 x 4's sufficient for connecting the top of the posts to the beams, or should they be as hefty as the ones at the bottom of the posts?  Do these get bolted as well ( I plan to set the beams on top of the posts, not try to bolt them to the sides of the beams.)

  AC44Z 



would this be for ALL the post tops, not just the centers?

Question 3 - I don't know where the log trucks around here go with all those trees, but most of the local lumber comes from Canada. So, faced with a 14 day wait, and the obvious weight of 24' PT 4 x 8's, I got 4 12's instead of 2 24's for the beams.

That's why there are 14 piers, one for dead center under the butted up ends of the 12' 4 x 8's 

Is there any thing I need to do to secure those butted up ends?   The bolt hole in the bracket (it is centered just like the butted ends) won't connect them, can I just nail through the little holes in the bracket?  does it matter?


  The AC44Z will work at the bottom , you could add a flat gussett / strap  plates like these ST22Z

At the bottom of the beam?



Sorry about this, but where would the straps go?
On the sides of the 4 x 8's to hold them together?
Up one side of the post, over the top of the beam and down the other side?



The other end of the foundation beams are just hanging out there, not connected to anything. 
If these questions have been answered before, I apologize for the repetition, guess I'm this forum's latest field test.



Great post all the info was clear and broken out , VERY NICELY DONE!   [cool]


The "Z" stands for ZMAX required for the new ACQ PT lumber some folks use a barrier between the metal and the wood such as Grace Vycor. 

Why?


G/L PEG

PEG688

#28
 Yes , all post top one each side. They sell another that more of a PITA to use , you set it on the post and the beam drops into it so it's two sided sort of . More trouble than they are worth.


The straps would go only on your beam splice , one each side about 1" down from the top edge , so the "long way" to hold the beams to each other. The strap in the photo is just shown vertical , it can be used either way , or bent up and over for a DIFFERNT application.


  There's much debate on the new ACQ lumber corroding even the ZMAX stuff, copper / dissimilar metals type corrosion. The barrier separates the two metals. The one being in the wood. The copper is IN the wood the PT-ment.

  Or use Stainless steel hardware , we don't do it , If it was my business I think I would , I'd just add it to the cost of the job, as S/S is more $$$.       

 

When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

considerations

Thanks for your patient replies.  I'll follow up on them.  I guess we can be comforted by knowing that no moss will grow on the new PT lumber.   :P

 

Pushing and rolling that concrete made for an interesting day.  The weather was beautiful. I noticed some folk on this forum saw snow and winter like weather. 

Our summers are short, but glorious for the brief time they visit.  This was one of those days.  Stareted with an eagle lumbering overhead, then the Canadian geese in formation, strawberries and newly transplanted iris blooming, a tiny lilac making its first blossoms....wow, except for the aching muscles in places I will not mention, it doesn't get much better than this.


glenn kangiser

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

considerations

An hour here, an hour there.


glenn kangiser

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Willy

Looks great so far. If it was me doing it I would nail a X of wood on each pier from side to side to keep the posts straite and solid. If you nailed a board at the bottom near the pier block and went accross to the other post and nailed it just below the beam and on the other side of the post reverse it this will keep them from moving. Do this to all the posts it will keep them straite and make putting the floor joists up much easier with out the beams moving around. This would be done between the beams. The beams will hold the posts straite from end to end. Mark


considerations

Thanks Willy, I'm planning on it. 

I saw a similar conversation about cross bracing elsewhere on these forums, and have the lumber for it.  When I put the first beam up, I found that even though the piers were level, some were not in exactly the right place, and had to do some "scooting" to get the posts directly under the beam, so they would stand exactly vertical. 

I think that getting the one beam on made me get those piers in the proper place, and that now I can use those piers as "points of reference" to fine tune the placement of the opposite piers.

That should assure that a cross brace will squarely match up to a post under the other beam.

This is my first "house", and I'm really banking on forum members looking at the pictures and sharing their experience to help me get this done safe and correctly.  For me, the real value of purchasing the plans lies in the forum support.

I was also planning on a couple of "X's" on the long sides as well. 



considerations

Speaking of getting support from the forum, here is one thing I haven't yet figured out.  I have "lofty" aspirations about a fancy loft plan, but am not sure how to execute it.  I think I've committed myself to an 8' ceiling on the main floor, meaning I'm planning on 12' studwalls.  I want to have head room for the stairs, and am planning on collar ties in the loft ceiling to keep things sturdy, as well as keeping the loft headroom below what is considered "living space". 

The issue I haven't worked out is how the main floor ceiling joists "work around" the open spaces in the ceiling.



There is, at least in the stairwell, a bit of a potential conflict between running the ceiling joists all the way across the width of the cabin, and still being able to get up the stairs. 

Any ideas about how to accomplish this would be welcomed.  The dimensions of the "open below" spaces are not chiseled in granite, they can be changed to accomodate realities, like using the joists for support.  I do, however need room for that bed where it is.  Also, the joists can run right through the open space that does not have the stair well in it.  In the stair well opening, I can bring a support post up along the top corner of the stair that is not attached to the wall, but I'm not sure about how to execute the rest of it.


PEG688

#36
Quote from: considerations on May 31, 2008, 08:53:54 AM

The issue I haven't worked out is how the main floor ceiling joists "work around" the open spaces in the ceiling.






You double up the joists , or add a doubled up joist , under that closet wall and the wall by where you show that trunk at the foot of the bed.

Those double joist run the full width of the building.

At the "head" / top of the stairs you hang a doubled up "stairwell header" between those two doubled up full width joist , use double 2x hangers , you can order a "hidden" flange type for the one at the head of the stairs so it won't interfere with stairwell trim.

   

A HUSC you may need to add a 1/2" ply layer between as finding a double (net 3" HUSC ) could be a bigger issue than a net 3 1/2" hanger, no big deal better really in many ways for those double beams to be net 3 1/2".

  You can hang that angled stairwell joist , it should be a double as well off the "header" and the other cross beam with  skewed hangers .


Those other "open to below" areas all add dollars / time / hardware. They can be done , they just cost more.

May plan  above assumes the joist go across that room and one double joist conflicts with one "open to below " area.  Could those be shifted or taken out? You do realize those "open to below" areas would require guard rails , or SHOULD if they don't in your mind.   

 


   
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

considerations

Yup PEG, absolutely there are railings....the bathroom is on the first floor, and I'd like to make the wee hour trip with my dignity (and my neck) intact.

I've read what you said a couple time, and I get most of it, but, what is a HUSC?

By the way, thanks for taking the time to puzzle this out.  I just really like the way that diagonal "cat walk" breaks up the "boxey" look. 

PEG688

Quote from: considerations on June 01, 2008, 03:48:05 PM


   #1:Yup PEG, absolutely there are railings....the bathroom is on the first floor, and I'd like to make the wee hour trip with my dignity (and my neck) intact.

   #2: I've read what you said a couple time, and I get most of it, but, what is a HUSC?

  #3: By the way, thanks for taking the time to puzzle this out.  I just really like the way that diagonal "cat walk" breaks up the "boxey" look. 

#1 : I saw that later when I reviewed the earlier posts on your thread. It's hard to keep track of all the different buildings and who doing what .

#2: The hanger I posted is a HUSC , http://www.strongtie.com/products/strongwall/wood-strongwall/husc-hucq.asp

Follow that link to the Simpson site.


#3: All those catwalks cost money , but thats why boxy is cheap-------er , not really cheap. 
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .


considerations

You are a gem - thanks, I'll add this into the thought process.  8)

considerations

2 potato.  I just inch along during the week


considerations

Almost square, almost level......hate that "almost" part.   [frus]


PEG688

Quote from: considerations on June 07, 2008, 10:43:08 AM


Almost square, almost level......hate that "almost" part.   [frus]


How close is your "almost" ? And how are you measuring that? As in pulling  for square alone with a tape , is it pulled taught , are you measuring from the "same" points inside of tape both ways not doing a "inside / outside " swap when pulling.

And for level what are you using , a 4 foot level / 6 foot level/ laser / water level?? And depending on which your using ,"almost" can be different things .

So more details info would be better to let me say "Close enought is Good enought". 
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

ScottA

One thing I learned when working with wood there is no such thing as perfect. My floor is +/- 1/2" of flat and within a 1/4" of square by pulling from corner to corner. My good enough might not be the same as your good enough though.

PEG688

Quote from: ScottA on June 07, 2008, 01:17:57 PM


 


  My good enough might not be the same as your good enough though.



 
Yes indeed that is true. I'd go with 1/4" for level / (flat,  as in no crowns / humps ) maybe in a cabin would be a better way to view that),  in say 30 LF  Flatter is better. And I like  my pull for "square" #  to be smaller than 1/8" ,"dead nuts on" is better. [cool]

The issues you get later as you build and go upward  seem to magnify / become more apparent as you literally build upon those early , ah ,,, indiscretions / errors.

But of course YMMV , Use no hooks , Void where prohibited by law , etc ,etc. To each there own in others words.     
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .


PEG688

Quote from: ScottA on June 07, 2008, 01:17:57 PM


One thing I learned when working with wood there is no such thing as perfect.




Not to pick on Scott where but he is right in  way . BUT you generally can choose which "side" of something is going to "fair in".

Lets take wall framing for example.

You should crown your studs , putting the crown out , or "up" when your framing the walls on the floor, culling any that are "to crowned" say 5/16th" and up Cull out and use those for blocking , cripple studs under windows , etc etc .

This does a few things

#1: You wall framing will go better as the crowned studs won't be rocking up and down on the "crown " so just handling them , lining up the wall plate and stud flush will be easier as they will be resting on the tips , not rolling on the crown.

#2: Crowned studs will "fair in " better the hump being out , it "hides " better , culling  the studs reduces any "BIG" humps.

#3: Your interior walls will , maybe, help some when they go up to break up those humps and again on those crown the studs and choose which side the "hump" will be on.

On rafters again when you make a pattern you can choose which side the to engage the pattern from so the ceiling , IF say it's a vaulted one , will be the side that engages the rafters as you lay them out , again that fairing in choosing which side "the difference" as wood varies will be put.

This may all seem like "fussy B/S" to some to others it may be helpful to build a better (what ever your building / play house / cabin / fence etc . Just extrapolate the "ideas" to different items / uses.

Or just ignore it , as "Master class" ramblings. :-[         
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

MountainDon

Having done remodeling work on a couple of homes that were "professionally" built with everything :almost" square I can't stand it when 1/4" is seen to be good enough.

As PEG stated, OMMV.  :o
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

considerations

I haven't given up. I'll probably spend another day to get it right.  I have exactly the same distance between the nails in those temporary 2 x 4's between the beams, and they are exactly the same distance apart.  I have a laser level, a 6 foot level and a 4 foot level.  Right now the diagonal measurements are 178 and 181"'s on the first 12' section of the beams.  So I'm not square yet.  Looked good until I started measuring the diagonals....but I started at 186 and 179, so progress is being made.  I just keep walking around and tapping each pier in the right direction and it is gradually giving in.   

When all the diagonals are right then I'l go back and make sure the piers are vertical again ( I have a handy dandy post level that shows both sides at the same time. 

Then measure the diagonals again and start making any fine tuning to make the tops of the beams level again, if that has changed. 

The rods supporting the posts are threaded, so I can make the vertical adjustments fairly easily.  Then comes the cross bracing. 

I'll just keep measuring for square and level as I go because I can knock things out of kilter with a few hammer blows. 

I have to agree with you all.  If I get this part right, the rest will be a lot easier.  So if it takes a whole day, it will take a whole day. 

Thank you for the additional discourse about "crowning".  I knew about it for floors, but will refer back to it when I get to the framing.  I didn't know about that part.   

PEG688

 
Whats you total beam length and the distance (outside to outside) of the beam? I can tell you what your  diagonal dimension should be.
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

MountainDon

Considerations, it sounds to me like you are dividing the length into sections and taking diagonal measurements off each one. If I interpret you correctly that is not the best way to proceed. Small errors in each section can add onto each other; of course it's possible that they could cancel out each other too, but you never know.

The best method would be to treat the beams as a whole unit. Make certain that each beam is the same length and the same distance apart and measure the two long diagonals. That would need a long steel tape; 50 footers and longer are available. I have a 50 and a 165 from Harbor Freight. For all I use them they'll last me a lifetime. Hmmm, I'm well past the half point...

When you get into lengths like that it becomes important to pull the tape tight for each measurement; they'll hang in a catenary curve if not pulled tight and affect your accuracy.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.