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General => Owner-Builder Projects => Topic started by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 20, 2016, 01:21:07 AM

Title: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 20, 2016, 01:21:07 AM
I reckon it's time to de-lurk and announce myself on the forum.  Hello from Chugiak, Alaska!  The light of my life and I are buying some land near Lake Louise, a popular destination for fishing in summer and winter, in the Copper River basin in southcentral Alaska.  Before I jump into our plans for the cabin let me show you the lay of the land.

Driving along Lake Louise Road looking north at Lake Louise
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/IMAG0947_zpspy3qrdqq.jpg)

Looking east over our unnamed lake towards the Wrangell Mountains
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/IMAG0917_zpsdc1n0ojn.jpg)

Looking south from the same location.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/IMAG0915_zpslgmvfwpf.jpg)

We're about nine miles from the end of the road.  Half of that is crossed by snowmachine* on the frozen Lake Louise, and the remainder is by existing trails and a new trail of about three miles that I will have to clear myself.  In the summer we'll be using a local air taxi to land us on the lake.

*Alaskans refer to snowmobiles as snowmachines.  Don't ask me why, it is what it is.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 20, 2016, 01:49:55 AM
Our current thoughts are on a 16 x 28 stick frame build with a half loft.  The knee walls will be at least 4' giving lots of livable space upstairs.  Here's a mockup, please excuse my poor Sketchup skills.

(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/Cabin_16x28_Timbers02_zpseuunhm6f.png)

There is discontinuous permafrost throughout this portion of the Alaska.  The area was once under Lake Ahtna, a Pleistocene glacial lake that left behind lots of sand and silt, and some gravel.  I don't yet know what's on the property but I am planning for the worst and designing a pad and post foundation that can be adjusted as the ground moves to frost heaving or permafrost thaw settling.

Other than that all design considerations are provisional at this time.  There is no permit authority to contend with, but I plan on building something that will last as well as be within the guidelines of the IRC.  I have given some though to using three-sided logs, as I find the look very appealing.  They don't fare too well in the insulation department, but this will be a recreational cabin that will see many weekends of use in the winter and a few weeks of use each summer.  The biggest reason for me at this point not to use milled logs is the cost.  There are some nice sized spruce on the property but I doubt very much there is enough to make cutting and milling my own feasible.  We'll see on that issue.

Otherwise my thoughts are for 2x6 construction, T1-11 sheathing, and a metal roof with a 12:12 pitch.  Snow ground load here is 70#, and I like the idea of having a roof that will shed some of that snow.  I'm designing for a cathedral roof with a ridge beam to support the rafters.  The ridge beam will be supported by some timbers.  Also thinking of having the loft floor be 2x6 tongue and groove decking on timber joists.  To keep stairs from eating up too much space we'll have an alternate tread staircase.,

That's a few of my design considerations and I'll be dumping a lot more on you all in the near future.  We're set to close on the property later this week, so I may be getting a little ahead of myself making too many plans before we even own the land.  But winter will be the time to haul in materials so it'll be a mad rush once the ink is dry on the deed.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on January 20, 2016, 06:07:40 AM
Sounds like a fun project... looks like it's way the hell out there... love that east view.  In my opinion, you can never start too early, I think it allows you (me) to get the bigger picture of what's going to be happening and also allows you to keep an eye out for things you might be able to use out there.

I'm building a similar sized cabin (14'x24') just south of the border of BC Canada and it's going to be a long project so it gives me a chance to gather other things i'm going to need out there.  My foundation is in and ready to build on but I've also been grabbing water tanks, a generator, propane tanks, on demand hot water, gas cooktop, woodstove, plumbing and electrical materials, nails, hangers, looking into solar/wind, etc..  I need about $8k in lumber and materials just to get it dried in and sided and i'm keeping an eye out... for a 25' ridge beam in particular MSRP $950... so any jump I can get on that is huge.

Looking forward to seeing more of your project... after the snow melts i'm guessing?  That's where im at... waiting on 2'-3' of snow to go away.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 20, 2016, 10:24:43 AM
I'm going through that same process myself.  Trying to think things through too far ahead of time can get me wrapped up in minutiae though.  Was pondering last night about how to provide light and power.  Originally I was thinking about DC lights, like using RV fixtures.  Then I realized that AC wiring and fixtures are a lot more available and affordable.  With a small capable inverter like the Morningstar SureSine 300 I can cover most of my needs and save the heavy stuff for the generator.  A big 105 amp-hour battery or two to store energy and a couple solar panels for about 400 watts is what I'm thinking.  Just starting to read up on this stuff but one suggestion was to get everything else working before you consider wind.  It's typically too expensive and unreliable for most users.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: kenhill on January 20, 2016, 02:50:10 PM
With the majority of use in the winter and the -30 degree temps you get out there, I would think you would be better off with 2x6, insulation and tight construction.  We are at Red Shirt lake and when it is 0 out there, it can take all day for my 18,000btu oil stove to warm the 20x30 up to 60 degrees.  I would suggest a good wood stove to heat faster.

Many people use the pad set up in that terrain.  I hear a 2 foot by 2 foot box made out of 2x12 works well.  Otherwise, might want to look into the auger style piling.  Whatever you do, don't skimp on the foundation, the rest of your financial investment depends upon it.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on January 20, 2016, 10:19:29 PM
Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on January 20, 2016, 10:24:43 AM
I'm going through that same process myself.  Trying to think things through too far ahead of time can get me wrapped up in minutiae though.  Was pondering last night about how to provide light and power.  Originally I was thinking about DC lights, like using RV fixtures.  Then I realized that AC wiring and fixtures are a lot more available and affordable.  With a small capable inverter like the Morningstar SureSine 300 I can cover most of my needs and save the heavy stuff for the generator.  A big 105 amp-hour battery or two to store energy and a couple solar panels for about 400 watts is what I'm thinking.  Just starting to read up on this stuff but one suggestion was to get everything else working before you consider wind.  It's typically too expensive and unreliable for most users.

@Chugiak... My lights and power will start off with a traditional AC electrical system and run off the genny to start with, then i'll probably add a solar system w/batteries and an inverter as I can afford it, and finally a small wind generator just for maintaining the batteries when it's cloudy... just cuz the wind seems to be the only constant up there.

@Kenhill... I agree with you 110% on the foundation... that's the hardest thing to fix if it's not done right, mine is a cement block 6'-4" "crawlspace" with a floor hatch and a set of double doors to the outside.  I'm also going with 2x6 double wall construction, the most R-value I can stuff in it and a kickin' woodstove to keep it warm.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 21, 2016, 05:00:22 AM
The three biggest costs I've come up with are the foundation, the roof, and the stove & pipe.  Three places where it pays to do it right.


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on January 21, 2016, 09:41:10 AM
Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on January 21, 2016, 05:00:22 AM
The three biggest costs I've come up with are the foundation, the roof, and the stove & pipe.  Three places where it pays to do it right.


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Ya, my foundation came in around $3500 but I went a little overboard and that included the mini excavator rental, but it's bombproof.  It's cement block filled solid with rebar and concrete... it's not going anywhere. 

According to my budget/bids my next and biggest expense is framing package/roofing/windows and siding at around $9k realisticaly speaking.  This years goal anyway... framing and roofing at a minimum, and that's still coming in around $3500-$4000.  Fortunately for me, i'm a carpenter so I don't have to pay any labor... well, not that much anyway... it always costs me beer and gas up there.

That triple wall stovepipe can be spendy... last time I bought it, one 3' section was like $90... I need at least 2 sections and a ceiling box.  I've got a great little airtight woodstove that i'll probably use up there, I hope it will be enough to keep my 350 sqft nice and toasty when it's -15.

After that, the next big ticket item will probably be my solar setup... which I don't really have any real hard numbers for as of yet, but i've heard the general rule of thumb is about $1 per watt for a good setup.

Sidenote:  Not sure if it's the case where you are but after comparing the two, T1-11 siding was more expensive than using OSB and 8" Cedar Channel Siding which is going to give you better construction and a more rustic look than T1-11.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 22, 2016, 02:38:21 AM
Thanks for the pointer on siding.  Part of me wants to do self milled board and batten siding, but I'll look into that cedar channel.  I'm not against using OSB for sheathing.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on January 22, 2016, 12:09:46 PM
there's a couple of ways of looking at the ridgebeam support. It can be supported by the gable end walls and overhang the end porches, certainly can be done but might get into a larger beam.

You've drawn the beginnings of a truss in the gable end of the porch. Actually making that a load bearing truss it can then support the end of the overhanging ridgebeam. If there is a post or truss about the middle of the building then the supports are truss, gable wall, post, gable wall, truss... the ridgebeam has nice relatively short spans and can be smaller.

The connection at the heeljoint in a truss is under the greatest "thrust" as the top rafter chord,  which is now trying to support a substantial accumulated ridge load, is driving down and out with the load pushing on it from above.
This is one way of restraining that thrust in a heavy timber truss. The "relish" in the bottom chord beyond the notch is trying to shear off, it is sized accordingly.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/trussrough.jpg)

I put a couple more reinforcements in that particular joint. The post tennon passes through it and there is an allthread rod holding the joint together.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/tiedimensions.jpg)

Then look at the kingpost. A kingpost is really a rope dangling from the peak and holding up the bottom chord from sagging. My truss needed a bottom chord that was longer than I could saw so I passed a spline through the kingpost and pegged the spline to the bottom chord members on each side of the king.  The bottom chord is also a tension member, it can be thought of as a rope.

Here is one way to look at it. As you push down on the roof it tries to spread. The bottom chord goes into tension and resists that spreading force... up to the quality of my string and knots.
The kingpost dangles from the ridge and keeps the bottom chord from sagging.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/thrustkingpost.jpg)

In the drawing above notice that it is pinched in a kind of Chinese finger puzzle, the greater the load the tighter the kingpost top joint pinches on the king.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 22, 2016, 11:39:28 PM
Hey Don_P, thanks for the insight on truss dynamics.  Or is that statics? d* 

You've intuited my plan pretty well.  I'm actually looking at having two vertical supports inside, so it would go end truss, gable wall, post, post, gable, wall, end truss.  Max unsupported span for the ridge beam will be a sniff under 10 feet.  My mockup of the end truss was not by design, I am just copying what I see everywhere else.  Now I know why it's so ubiquitous.  I came here hoping to get some guidance on incorporating timber construction into my cabin and blamo, I get it without even having to ask.  Thanks much for the sharp eye and comments.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on January 23, 2016, 09:10:32 AM
Some of us are quite free with unsolicited commentary  :)
What you drew is a very common way of building that porch detail if it is not completely understood, I own that shirt  ::). Without a really good heeljoint connection the kingpost ends up trying to hold the ridgebeam up, a heavy job for the bottom chord at ~ a 15' span. My understanding is that would be classed as a crownpost frame, a predecessor of the kingpost truss. Around the 15th century the porch light came on for some builder and away we went.
It's workbench statics, and you just gave another puzzle piece we can play with, sizing the ridgebeam.
At 16' wide the rafters each bear half on the wall and half on the ridgebeam. The opposing rafter also bears half its load on the ridge and half on the other eave wall... so the load distribution is 1/4 bearing on one eave, 1/2 on the ridgebeam, 1/4 on the other eave wall. 8' of tributary width x 10' of ridge span x (70psf snow+10psf dead load)=6400 lbs on a 10' span. A triple SPF 2x12 or a single 11-7/8" LVL would work for the ridge.

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 23, 2016, 02:02:01 PM
The roof will overhang by 2' or so, so wouldn't the load calc for that be 10' x 10' x 80 lbs/sf = 8000 lbs?  Does that alter the beam size?  Wait, my coffee is starting to kick in.  The eave snow load is relevant for ensuring the wall and foundation are adequate but since it doesn't bear on the ridge beam it can be ignored here.  If anything I suspect there is some cantilever benefit that lessens the load on the ridge beam.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 23, 2016, 02:26:05 PM
My ridge beam as planned will need to be 44' long.  I haven't yet looked into LVL cost but the longest I've seen listed on the internet was 40'.  Given that everything will be coming in over the snow towed on a sled, I have doubts about even hauling something that long.  So I think for now I will plan on constructing a 3-2x12 beam on site.  That won't give a rustic timber look for the porches but I think I can live with that.  We'll see what the LOML thinks about it.

Along that vein, for the floor girders I am thinking of going big, as in a size or two more than the minimum dimensions indicated by the span tables.  My thinking is that when there is ground movement, the cabin will move as a single stiff object rather than flex and deform over frost heaves.  If this is even a rational strategy to pursue, I suspect I'll have to also stiffen up the floor joists in a similar fashion.  What I don't know is if there is actual benefit to building like that, and what might the costs be (structural, not economical)?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 23, 2016, 02:54:25 PM
So if I move the tie chord up to form a proper truss, like so...

(http://i.imgur.com/GHHzF7N.png)

then I need to make sure that I've got connections that hold in tension for every joint.  Essentially on the end truss the rafters are holding up the ridge beam rather than the other way around?  If that's the case I need to rethink the rafter/beam joint.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 23, 2016, 03:21:02 PM
So here's as far as I got on trying to use the IRC for designing the cabin.  Erred on the side of caution with live and dead loads.  I think 2x12 headers may be more than is needed on some of the wall openings but it makes the math real easy.   [cool]

Load design
Main floor, 16x28 (448 s.f.), dead load 15 psf, live load 40 psf = 24,640 lbs
Loft floor, 16x19 (304 sf), dead load 15 psf, live load 40 psf = 16,720 lbs
Roof, 20x44 (880 sf), dead load 20 psf, live load 20 psf, snow load 70 psf = 96,800 lbs
Decks, 360 sf, dead load 10 psf, live load 40 psf = 18,000 lbs
Total load = 156,160 lbs


Pads
Soils may not be capable of supporting greater then 1500 psf
Design load of 156,160 lbs requires foundation footprint of 105 s.f.
Treated timber pads of 24" x 18" yield 3 sf of supporting area.  This is extended by depth of compacted crushed gravel
A 36" x 30" crushed gravel bed 6" deep provides 7.5 sf of supporting material.
A minimum of 14 pads are required to support the structure.

Posts
Assuming a compressive strength perpendicular to grain of 335 psi, 6x6 horizontal pad timber can withstand 12,000 lbs
Assuming a compressive strength parallel to grain of 525 psi, 6x6 vertical post can withstand 18,900 lbs

Girders
A constructed beam of dimensional lumber must be fastened in accordance with R602.3(1)
Center beam is bearing load transmitted through the interior support timbers
Per R502.5(1), 70 psf snow load, a beam of 4 2x10 can support a span of 7' 7"
Posts under main floor placed 7' on center have maximum span of 6' 6"
With additional post and pad under interior load points, total of 23 posts

Floors
Main floor joist span of 7' 3"
Per R502.3.1(2) with 20 psf dead load, #2 or better, 2x8 on 24" allows span of 9' 3"
Blocking at center beam and along header joists
Extra blocking at load bearing wall, under wood stove

Walls
Per R602.3(5) for bearing walls supporting roof and a floor, 2x6 on 24"
Jack studs under interior timber and at gables under ridge beam
Door and window headers 2x12 sandwich with foam core


As shown in the first sketchup image of the whole cabin, I've got a lot of pads to dig.  I think it may be worthwhile going to 2x12 girders so I can increase the span and drop the number of pads.  Costs will probably be a wash but the savings in lessening the amount of pad preparation will be worth it, I think.  That is a strategy I read on an Alaska cabin forum, have fewer posts and pads so that there are fewer places for the heaving ground to torque the floor around.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 23, 2016, 04:36:41 PM
One more post before I try to do something productive today.  I'm looking at the 2012 IRC here (http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2012/icod_irc_2012_5_par019.htm?bu2=undefined).  Looking at Table R502.5(1), I am using a snow load of 70 psf and a building width of 20 feet.  My plan has a center girder supported by posts, two posts and load bearing wall supporting the loft, and two posts supporting the ridge beam.  The way I read the table I should be looking at the Roof, ceiling and two center-bearing floors section.  Accordingly, a 4-2x10 girder allows an unsupported span of 7' 7" and a 4-2x12 girder allows an unsupported span of 8' 10".

Here's a mockup of the new pad spacing of 7' 11".  I've nudged a couple over along the center girder to line up under the interior support posts.  I've also shown the load points with the colored beams to represent where the roof is supported.  You can see that using this spacing the gable wall load points do not have a post directly under them.  These are highlighted in red.  This concerns me, as I don't remember how much offset is allowable.  The solution may be to add in two more posts.  The pad under the post in green is as close as I can get to the interior load bearing post using a 16' 2x12.  Is this amount of offset (6 inches) sufficiently small to transmit load to the foundation?

(http://i.imgur.com/ThfeB1T.png)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on January 23, 2016, 07:52:41 PM
Bingo on the eureka over coffee, The slight cantilever effect is there but I haven't seen anyone use it in dimensioning members etc. Dutch barns made use of a balanced rafter... squirrel.

This is a kingpost truss supporting the ridgebeam from underneath

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/kingpost1.jpg)

Visualize the lower 2' of the kingpost gone (yup I could whack it out) and the ridge load driving down the top chords of the truss. You need a very strong connection between the bottom chord and the lower part of the top chord. I used that same notch on these but there are any number of ways to restrain this, the greatest force in the truss.

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/kingheel.jpg)

An unassembled shot of the kingpost to show the joggles and mortises in the top and the tennon that went into the bottom chord and was then pegged to support it. We built a temp floor on the bottom chords to do the ceilings, the kingpost holding the bottom chord up allowed that kind of load.

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/kingposts.jpg)

Basically the red posts are a no go, the green one will work, load can travel up to 45 degrees without changing to cantilever conditions... it can offset as much as the girder depth, go carefully if it is heavily loaded. Make the girder deeper and free up to move supports.

Being on unbraced piers there is nothing keeping them vertical, frost and seismic issues, looks like the wind has quite a fetch as well. Find a way of doing more than the 2x brace slapped on as an afterthought. I'd be more tempted to build a crib of timbers on a leveled gravel base but local wisdom rules in situations like this.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on January 24, 2016, 10:20:59 AM
Googling images for "stabbur", this is a nice example of the traditional Norwegian mouseproof storehouse.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/stabbur.jpg)

The long stiffening element that you are trying to pick up at the girder is usually created by the continuous perimeter foundation. The foundation also should be braced laterally. A timber crib is forming that stiffening foundation element and bracing the piers in this old cold weather foundation.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on January 25, 2016, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: Don_P on January 23, 2016, 07:52:41 PM
...
Being on unbraced piers there is nothing keeping them vertical, frost and seismic issues, looks like the wind has quite a fetch as well. Find a way of doing more than the 2x brace slapped on as an afterthought. I'd be more tempted to build a crib of timbers on a leveled gravel base but local wisdom rules in situations like this.

I've been pondering that issue for a while.  My initial go-to reference for building on permafrost has been this reference (http://www.cchrc.org/sites/default/files/docs/DesignManualforNewFoundationsonPermafrost.pdf) from the Cold Climate Housing Research Center in Fairbanks, Alaska.  In discontinuous permafrost the biggest concern is settling due to the thawing of ice, especially ice lenses.  If I were on the highway I could probably make frozen slurry piles effectively and affordably.  For remote, the most common practice is a surface foundation using post and pad construction.  To keep air flow to a maximum beneath the structure I want at least 2' of clearance above the ground and no skirting around the cabin.  This will keep frozen ground frozen, in theory.  All these concerns about permafrost would be moot if I knew exactly what was under the surface.  A proper geotechnical investigation would answer all questions but probably cost more than the land and cabin together.

So until my plan changes I'll be putting the cabin on posts about 3' long.  That will make things wobbly, and since we just had a 6.8 earthquake up here this weekend it is important to brace the uprights very well.  I was thinking of using steel tubing for cross braces rather than the usual 2x6.  I don't know where to start as far as determining what the specs for that would be, but it seems a good way to get the lateral bracing and keeping air flow resistance to a minimum.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 15, 2016, 01:27:12 AM
Still so many things to figure out on the cabin design.  For now, we have got a place to stay on the property that should keep us dry and warm.  I've cleared a trail to the property and have put up a Weatherport shelter.

Loading up lumber for the platform.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_Lumber_zpsgseby6cy.jpg)

Hauling the beams and some pallets.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_Beams_zpswv6ecfjj.jpg)

Clearing snow away and digging spots for concrete piers.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_DiggingSnow_zpswnt7exun.jpg)

Got the beams in place, sort of.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_LookingGood_zpsihqvlgmj.jpg)

The joists are framed up and the plywood floor is going down.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/20160314_Floor_zpsheb5uv72.jpg)

Jump ahead to completion of the Weatherport.
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_Voila_zpsqygccize.jpg)

They say in Alaska if you want to get some friends, buy a boat.  If you want to find who your friends are, have them help you build a cabin.  Here's a true friend, hopefully she'll come back and help when we start the cabin...
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20160314_Crew_zpsdnbchzdu.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 15, 2016, 01:46:37 AM
Looking at a few design changes.  Scissor trusses instead of ridge beam and rafters, and dropping roof pitch from 12:12 down to 9:12, with a 6:12 pitch on the lower chord.  I've been playing with the HomeBuilder and MedeekTruss plugins in SketchUp.  Wow, do these tools make it quick and easy to gin up a house frame in just a few minutes.

I know I can't be the first person to encounter this problem.  I'm looking at having 6' walls for the second floor.  Platform construction for the back half of the cabin, single wall ala balloon framing for the front.  That puts my side walls at 15', and the gable wall
tops out at just over 21'.  Here's a snapshot:
(https://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o655/ChugiakTinkerer/20016/201601/BalloonWall_03_zpsdfcyypti.png)

The IRC says I can go up to 20' on a non-loadbearing wall using 2x6 at 12" o.c.  With trusses the front wall isn't load bearing except to support the porch roof.  So in theory I shouldn't have a wall higher than 10'.  Clearly there are plenty of houses that have tall walls, so I'm wondering what solutions people employ.

Edit: I am aware of the need for fire blocking on the tall walls.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: MTScott on April 06, 2016, 01:32:14 PM
As for wall height, I've wrestled with this same concept myself.  I wanted to run 12' studs all the way on he supporting walls, but still have an open area in front of the loft over the great room.  The key is "unsupported".  If you had a complete second floor you'd be fine.  My plan is to run a 12/12 pitch over the great room area, with 10' walls, and switch pitch over the loft area to 8/12, or maybe 6/12.  Effectively, I'll build a full second story over the loft, but maintain a single ridge line.

I haven't found a way around the 10' wall height... well, other than have a structural engineer approve your plans.  As far as code goes, there isn't a slam dunk answer.  In truth, you'd probably be fine, but you might want to run 2x8 studs; however, the answer I arrived at is if it doesn't meet standard code it probably can be done, but you'll need a PE's signature (If passing an inspection will ever be a concern, or if you want to sell it one day).
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ajbremer on April 06, 2016, 06:12:25 PM
Very nice ChugiakTinkerer!...I'll keep looking - Alaska sure is beautiful.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 17, 2016, 11:11:22 AM
How does that saying go?  Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

My grand scheme involved hauling out all the materials to build over the winter, and miraculously putting it up in a week or two this summer.  I have to say I have been receiving a valuable lesson in remote site logistics, and it is quite humbling.  The Weatherport structure I could probably have put up in a weekend in my back yard.  One day to put in the platform and another to put up the tent.  Reality made short work of my expectations however.  Instead the time to haul materials on site was a lot more than I assumed, and just the ability to get on site and get some work done is severely limited.  When we were staying overnight at the lodge, the longest work day on the property was 4 hours.

Winter took an early departure this year.  I went up to Lake Louise last weekend with the hope of getting in one more load of material.  I got there at 9 am expecting it to be about 20 F, but instead it was 33 F.  That meant the trail did not freeze up overnight like I hoped, so I opted not to get myself bogged down in slush and muck.  Drop back ten yards and punt the ball.

My revised grand scheme is to spend a week this summer putting in an outhouse, a floating dock, a stoop for the Weatherport, and a tent platform for guests.  I'll save construction of the cabin for next year.  This will give me an opportunity to site the cabin and do the digging necessary to have good footings.  This will involve putting in a lot of gravel material, which is a subject deserving of its own post.  I'm hoping we can find some good gravel at the top of the hill where the birch trees are growing.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 17, 2016, 11:34:47 AM
Here's a few pictures over the course of the winter...

I camped out at 12 F on a small lake one weekend while I was making a trail to the property. (EDIT: Actually it was -12 F, forgot who dang cold it was)
(http://i.imgur.com/r9cWxzu.jpg?1)

Here I discovered overflow while hauling in some pallets to the property.
(http://i.imgur.com/W8g20i3.jpg)

We're loading some gravel from the material site at Lake Louise to our property 9.9 miles away.  The black tub on the right is my sled, which can hold about 1/3 yard.  Unfortunately it was wet and by the time I got it on site it was set up like concrete.
(http://i.imgur.com/YszbU3H.jpg)

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 17, 2016, 11:47:26 AM
My last successful haul was about 4,000 lbs of materials.  Mostly pressure treated lumber on the trailer, but some plywood and 2x4 studs too (for the outhouse).  The barrels are for buoyancy for the dock.
(http://i.imgur.com/20e9hoX.jpg)

Hauling barrels and a canoe!  The trail was starting to go, you can see a huge bare patch on the hill behind the second snowmachine.  There was a puddle about 8" deep at the bottom of the hill that you could cross in the morning when it was frozen.  By afternoon you had to hope you could skim across and not get the drive belt wet.
(http://i.imgur.com/qGm6p8P.jpg)

Here's everything stacked and covered awaiting the summer.  You can see the fine front step we have for the Weatherport.  :)
(http://i.imgur.com/lrj48R5.jpg)

On the final trip back to the truck we saw a pair of trumpeter swans on the middle of this still-frozen lake.  Picture doesn't really capture them, I need a decent camera for that not a cell phone.  There was also a bald eagle perched in the top of a spruce at the far end of this lake.  Along the way we spotted the tracks of a large wolf.  Sorry, no pics of the tracks - I definitely have to get better at documenting things with photos.
(http://i.imgur.com/xKyb8V0.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 17, 2016, 12:20:43 PM
Having issues with Imgur, images were there but now they aren't.  Will look into that.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 17, 2016, 12:40:34 PM
Looks like images are posting now.

Here's the inside of the Weatherport.  That's a stove from Cylinder Stoves in Utah.  Can get a decent 4-hour burn from a full load of spruce and birch mix.
(http://i.imgur.com/91HJdlw.jpg)

A beautiful day at Lake Louise.
(http://i.imgur.com/WkNs91x.jpg)

A view of the lake we're situated on.
(http://i.imgur.com/1BC4UHz.jpg)

Here's a moonlit ride back to Lake Louise Lodge after a day at the property.
(http://i.imgur.com/aQk7YwH.jpg)

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on April 18, 2016, 10:24:03 PM
@Chugiak... you get the award for the most extreme build... ain't nobody here doin it quite as extreme as you... I bow down to your badassery  Sir.  I can't wait to see some progress pics as well as some springtime pics.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 21, 2016, 12:07:35 PM
Quote from: nailit69 on April 18, 2016, 10:24:03 PM
@Chugiak... you get the award for the most extreme build... ain't nobody here doin it quite as extreme as you... I bow down to your badassery  Sir.  I can't wait to see some progress pics as well as some springtime pics.

Well thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I come close to what many others have already accomplished. 

    If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.   - Isaac Newton

We won't get back out until the summer, when a float plane can bring us in.  Until then I'll make updates as I consider design changes.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on April 23, 2016, 06:13:49 AM
Anyone hauling in materials by snow machine, on a frozen river/lake for xx miles, and then having to wait for the thaw so you can fly in and build it is pretty Burl in my book, might be day to day life in AK but it's pretty friggin impressive in the lower 48.
Title: Cribbing vs posts
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on June 18, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
I'm heading out in a week for ten days at the property.  Can't wait!

I may have talked myself out of using the post and pad method of supporting the cabin and instead going with cribbing.  I appreciate any thoughts or ideas on the pros and cons of each.

Post and pad I was thinking along the lines of this cabin:
(http://i.imgur.com/GgNelEx.jpg)
(photo courtesy of DirtofAK (http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/43455-Remote-cabin-construction-on-permafrost?p=384852&viewfull=1#post384852))

And cribbing would be similar to:
(http://i.imgur.com/GUpWqls.jpg)
(photo courtesy of CCHRC (http://www.cchrc.org/foundation-demonstrations))

Wood to be used in both cases would be 6x6 pressure treated for foundation.  I'm thinking that posts are less stable than cribbing when shaken by the earthquakes that happen up here with some regularity.  My two primary concerns are racking of the posts and rolling of the girders.  My design has joists will be resting atop the girder.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: kenhill on June 20, 2016, 11:26:52 AM
I like the cribbing for the type of soil you have a Lake Louise.  I have a friend with a duck shack across cook inlet and used 2 x 2 cribs like you show.  Has been stable for 30 years.  Might notch the crib for the beam to set in.

I made my dock with 55 gallon drums.  It sits pretty high.  Someone suggested putting some water in them so they sit lower and are more stable.  We pull the dock parallel to shore in the winter so the ice does not take it out during break.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on June 20, 2016, 12:15:31 PM
Thanks for the feedback Ken.  I do like the fact that cribbing can distribute loads better than posts with piers or pads.  I do admit to finding it rather unsightly though.  To add to my indecision, I was going through some old posts on the forum and came across one where the post to beam interface was discussed.  I was raised on the mindset that beams sit on top of posts, but I'm contemplating the benefit of going with a narrower deeper beam and notching the post to accommodate it.  A built-up beam using two 2x12 can span 6'-1", which is closer than my original plan.  But it would allow me to notch the 6x6 post and through-bolt the beam.

For your dock, what size is it and do you recall how many barrels you used?  I'm aware of using water for ballast, but am thinking that depth can also be controlled by using more or fewer barrels.  Would appreciate your firsthand experience.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: kenhill on June 20, 2016, 03:12:28 PM
I think it is 8 foot by 14 with 8 barrels, but I'll have to check.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 14, 2016, 04:25:18 PM
I've been remiss in not updating from our excursion at the end of June.  I'll get some pictures up soon, but as usual I was lax in my picture-taking.  To start off, I didn't get the crew I had originally hoped for.  My daughter bailed completely, and my wife and son were only able to be there for four days.  My brother was kind enough to accompany me so I was able to get some of my to-do list accomplished.

The first item on the agenda was to build the outhouse.  We dug a decent sized hole and dropped a poly 55 gallon drum in it to keep it from sloughing in.  Top and bottom of barrel was cut off.  I did not pierce the barrel wall with holes at all, which in hindsight may have been a bad call.  The problem is that the bottom of the hole has lots of clay.  It does not bode well for draining the pit.  I may end up moving the outhouse much sooner than originally planned, depending on how the hole fares over time.

I got the outhouse framed and sheathed, including a 2x2 window that looks out on the lake.  I started the cedar tongue & groove siding that will eventually cover the building, but did not get to finish that job this trip.  The next item was a 12' x 12' deck for putting up a 10' x 10' tent.  This tent platform went up pretty quick.  It was the first time I have used deck screws with the Torx head, and I don't think I will ever buy Phillips screws again.  The Torx bit is so much better at keeping the bit in the screw.  Don't think there was a single instance of slippage, and my brother is not the most mindful of workers.

We have been getting in and out of the Weatherport using stacked up pallets as stairs.  This wasn't particularly safe so I put a 6' x 6' stoop on the front.  I added a set of stairs to get the three steps from ground level to the porch.  This has worked really well.  I almost wish I had gone bigger, because it makes a nice deck and is the only space currently to sit out and enjoy the sunshine.  My last item of note was the boardwalk at our lake landing.  We did not get even close to building the dock, but did get the first part done to get us to the water's edge.

In addition to the construction projects, we got the trail brushed out from the lake to the cabin site.  We sit about 450' from the shoreline and about 40' above the lake.  Finding and brushing the trail was a chore in itself.  While I was clearing with the chainsaw my brother took one for the team when an angry wasp/hornet/whatever decided to attack him.  He ended up with an ugly welt that lasted for a few days.  It was a good reminder to have Benadryl and bite ointment on hand.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 14, 2016, 04:35:43 PM
Alrighty, got a few pics loaded.

Here's a view of the lake:
(http://i.imgur.com/mGTa4QN.jpg)


Outhouse pit and initial framing of the floor.
(http://i.imgur.com/gmjOeXU.jpg)


I also put a barrel in as a liner for the outhouse seat box.  It seems like it ought to be easier to maintain a clean appearance.
(http://i.imgur.com/zhHmYDZ.jpg)


One of the ways to minimize odor is to separate solids and liquids.  Here's the urine separator as fashioned after a barrel composting toilet system (http://www.omick.net/composting_toilets/barrel_toilet_urine_diversion.htm).
(http://i.imgur.com/8PZIUHH.jpg)

The finished seat.
(http://i.imgur.com/q5n1tMV.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 14, 2016, 04:58:46 PM
My brother and I flew in on the 25th.  We completed the outhouse, brushed the trail, and put up the tent platform by the 29th.  In addition, every day we were hauling stuff up from the lake shore that was brought in on the float plane.  And hauling up water to filter.

Here's the tent platform:
(http://i.imgur.com/sJg6t67.jpg)


I started off using my stack of lumber as a work space.  It didn't work so well when it started raining, plus I was constantly drawling lumber from it.  So I rigged up a frame to support a tarp.  I used some scrap tarp pieces and attached them to the frame.  My brother calls it the meat-hanging rack.
(http://i.imgur.com/xNwDwyL.jpg)


Things get a little cluttered when you're building three different things at the same time.  Here's a shot from the tent platform looking north.  The lake is to the northeast, off to the right.  The green tarp on the left covers what remains of my stacked lumber.  You can see the framed outhouse center background.  Just to the right is my tarped work space.
(http://i.imgur.com/yYwcjCM.jpg)

I had originally planned for the cabin to be located just out of the picture frame on the right, just past the tarp area.  This area is a broad level bench that would be perfect to put up a cabin.  But for the soil.  So far we've encountered clay to some extent everywhere along this bench.  So I think I'm going to put the cabin on the very top of the hill, where the birch trees are in this picture.  It's not as level, but the soil is well drained and no clay in the limited digging I've accomplished.

Here's my wife and son coming in on the Beaver.  This is a gorgeous old plane that is a meat and potatoes aircraft in bush Alaska.  It can haul something like 1500 lbs, and after allowing for the pilot and floats that puts us in the range of 1100 lbs for passengers and cargo.
(http://i.imgur.com/mbr0Hnc.jpg)

Sorry I didn't get any more shots of the porch or the boardwalk.  The weather was good and the bugs not too bad.  We did have an issue with the water filter getting clogged up.  Used a Katadyn BaseCamp Pro 10L gravity feed filter, which should be good for 1500 liters of filtering.  I got about 250 liters with my last cartridge, but sediments in our rivers take a toll.  Something in the lake water is clogging the filter cartridge much faster though, as after about 30 liters on a new cartridge the filter slowed to a trickle.  I see the need for some sort of pre-filter or flocculent to extend the useful life of a filter cartridge.
Title: Post and Frame Construction
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 23, 2016, 01:06:35 AM
I've been thinking about how the post and pad system will leave me with a potentially wobbly foundation.  Couple that with the fact that framed walls above 10' are beyond what is standard in the IRC and I'm beginning to ponder the post frame construction method.  This is the way pole barns are built.

Conceptually, the structure would look like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/DHz8yCX.png)

There would of course be braces as well as sheathing to provide rigidity.  The posts would be sitting on top of timbers sitting on the gravel pads.  A design like this would resolve some of concerns but raises more in how to construct it.  I'm chewing on this idea, might be a while before I digest it fully.  Will update as I get any clarity in my thinking.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 23, 2016, 12:20:03 PM
I do like the thought of this. The full height posts are braced by the walls that they extend out of. The posts are under both a bending and axial load, that is a complex set of interactions to try to calculate sizes from. I would try to model it as a cantilevered beam for initial design but recognize that it is under more load than that, be very conservative.

What kind of snow and wind loads are you looking at?
Take a look at Simpson HUCQ hangers for beam to post connections;
http://www.strongtie.com/resources/literature/wood-construction-connectors-catalog
Can you post the skp file somewhere?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 23, 2016, 12:31:58 PM
Snow loads are 70 lbs psf, wind is 90 mph.

SKP is here: http://mtaonline.net/~brose98/Cabin_16x28_PostFrame_01.skp

It's just a mockup, I haven't done anything more than start looking at how it would go together.

Edit: Based on http://windspeed.atcouncil.org my winds values are:
ASCE 7-05 Windspeed:
  91 (3-sec peak gust in mph)
ASCE 7-93 Windspeed:
  70 (fastest mile in mph)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 23, 2016, 05:02:40 PM
I've gone through some of the calcs for a 16' post rough sawn 6 x 6.  My axial load estimate on a side post is 13,020 lbs whereas for a corner post not supporting the loft it is only 7,100 lbs.  Using the TimberToolbox column calculator, a 6x6 passes for axial load, with no bracing whatsoever.  A S4S post with 5.5 inch dimensions fails.  I then looked at the wind load calculator at http://www.buildingsguide.com/calculators/structural/ASCE705W/ and plugged in the numbers for my structure.  I assumed complete covering on all walls, which won't actually be the case.  Looking at the loads generated I plugged in a lateral load of 1,200 lbs for the combined axial and load calculator and it passed.  I then added the axial load due to wind pressure on the roof, and this was enough to cause the 6x6 to fail.  I've been using mechanical properties for dry Alaskan white spruce.

The calcs were for an unbraced column 16' long.  That obviously won't be the case when the structure is built, but I wanted to see what the worst case calculations would be.  I could probably get away with using 6x6 rough sawn timbers considering the bracing that will be provided by the structure and sheathing.  But I think I will proceed with the margin of safety you recommend and look at designs using 8x8 timbers.  I'm not familiar enough with the wind load calculations to think I've got a firm grasp on the design parameters.  But given the huge jump I get going from 6x6 to 8x8 I'm comfortable with using that as my starting point.

Edit: Hmmm, I bet I could easily get by with 6x6 posts if I used a ridge beam and rafters rather than using trusses.  With the trusses all the roof load is on the wall posts.  I'll continue with that design for now, but I do want to see where I end up with the ridge beam and interior posts as in my original plan.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 23, 2016, 05:35:21 PM
I was writing while you were researching... looking for info along the same lines and found the wood frame construction manual online.  Kaching, I paid about $750 for it with the AWC engineer teaching. I'm not saying my grasp of it is firm at all.
They keep dinking around with the windspeed numbers. The stuff stays pretty much the same they just label it with a different windspeed in ASCE 7-10 ::) (if it ain't broke, fix it till it is). I took the class for the 2012 this is the 2015
but looks to be the same with some corrections that were addendum after the '12.
http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/wfcm/AWC-WFCM2015-ViewOnly-1510.pdf

The main thing there is watch your year cites when using tables across different documents. For instance in the 2012 &2015 WFCM the 90 mph 3 second gust of ASCE 7-05 becomes 110 mph 3 second gust at 700 year return in ASCE 7-10.

Check pg 11 for current windspeed in that document and then go to pg 68-69 for a sense of how that relates to lateral loads that the cantilevered posts will need to resist.

I'm hoping your unbraced length is less than 4'
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 23, 2016, 06:26:04 PM
Quote from: Don_P on July 23, 2016, 05:35:21 PM
...

I'm hoping your unbraced length is less than 4'

That all depends as what counts as a brace.  I'm thinking 2x6 framing between the posts.  I need to allow for doors and windows so it will look rather like conventional framing, but I can see that blocking at 4' intervals will be critical.  Or turn the framing on it's side and run the studs horizontally as girts and block them as needed.  The framing will be flush with exterior of posts to allow for sheathing across the entire wall.

One thing I'm wondering is the sheathing sufficient that I don't need knee braces where there is sheathing?  Different sort of bracing, I know, but it helps me figure out how the 2x6 framing will go.

Thanks for the link to the WFCM.  It looks like the 3 second wind gust on page 11 is 115 mph in my area.  I'll note that in my working docs and look at it when I feel I have a better grasp of the wind issues.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 23, 2016, 10:17:02 PM
Yes, the sheathing counts as the bracing... it is actually stronger than a kneebrace IF, and here is the reason for studs, if the sheathing cannot buckle out of plane. The studs keep the ply or osb flat when the wall is racking. If that is successful then the brace created is 4'x8'. If the sheathing is fully blocked on all edges then the wall approaches having a giant X brace across it.

If you extend say treated ply sheathing below the floor and framed behind it to keep it from buckling, that skirting braces the post.Starting around pg 190 or so the wfcm gets into wall sheathing, etc.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 24, 2016, 02:56:48 AM
Wow, the WFCM has it all.  Thanks again for the link.  One thing I've already picked up is the need to nail roof sheathing every 6 inches including in the field when the panel is within 4' of the roof edge.  High winds won't be bothering me!

Somewhere in my internet wanderings I came across the Connecticut Post & Beam outfit and their T-Rex connectors.  To my simple caveman mind this looks like a nice way to join timbers without having to call in the Keebler elves.  Has anyone seen these before, and maybe even has some experience with them?

http://www.ctpostandbeam.com/t-rex-connectors/
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 24, 2016, 06:30:15 AM
... can you or a buddy weld?
Hit their resource page, Firetower is very well respected those are good numbers. Compare the capacities to that Simpson connector. Unless there is an exposure reason I don't see it. Simpson also has a line of concealed connectors that are similar. There are also others out there. I've welded up beefy beam hangers out of 1/4" angle as well.

Yes, the WFCM is a great all around resource... notice the front half of the manual is for engineers and the back half is prescriptive, so start in the back half looking for solutions. It does make it easier to understand the thinking with both paths.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 24, 2016, 08:50:06 PM
I dropped the gable end tie beam under the plate that is supporting the roof trusses. There is really no need to try to line those up most of the time and it makes assembly easier... or something different to think about anyway.

(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/16x28_PostFrame_02.jpg)

timbertoolbox.com/sketches/Cabin_16x28_PostFrame_02.skp
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 25, 2016, 02:04:02 AM
Don_P, thanks so much for taking the time to try to teach this old dog some new tricks.  I've got what I think is a somewhat viable plan.

(http://i.imgur.com/g17X4dk.png)

I took your change and beefed up the truss girders to 8x10.  Using some conservative numbers for Alaska white spruce I was getting beam failure with 8x8.  Joinery and/or connectors is yet to be determined, but the structural elements look to be all there.  I think.  There will of course be framing and sheathing to get the full diaphragm on the walls and roof.  I've got knee braces on the cross members supporting the loft.  I also added a beam that is essentially a rafter tie.  I felt like that part of the side walls needed some reinforcement.  It's colored olive green to make it stand out.  Do you think it's necessary?

Another other thing I'm still working on is bracing the posts below the floor.  Best practice in permafrost areas is to not put skirting around the base to ensure adequate air flow below the cabin and minimize any warming of the ground.  I'm good with 4x4 knee braces going from the bottom of each post up to the floor rim board (currently drawn as a 3x10).  But how do I brace the interior?  I'm contemplating a 4x4 running at floor level parallel to the BCI joists, and then shoring those up with 4x4 knee braces.  Is that a good thing to do, or might it be overkill?  I don't have that in my sketch yet, as it just occurred to me as I was typing this.

My sketch is at mtaonline.net/~brose98/Cabin_16x28_PostFrame_03.skp

Oh yeah, I show the interior wall as well.  My intent is to make that a shear wall.  Because Alaska has earthquakes.  We just had a 4.1 yesterday.  So probably I can't do anything that constitutes overkill.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 25, 2016, 06:20:24 AM
Looking good.
Just a quick look, the tie is unnecessary, but I like it.
The kneebraces under the floor are also unnecessary to my way of thinking IF the posts are sized correctly. I'm viewing them as (look at awc DA-6) a beam overhanging a post with a point load on the end. The beam is your post, the ground is the point load, the support in that scenario is the floor. There is also an axial load on our "beam". I think you are following my thoughts there. The kneebraces are then redundant, just fine but not needed, the braced walls connected to an unbroken post have answered that need.

Check your floor structure dimensions, kneebraces do not decrease span.

Umm, I never cleaned this calc up and put it in the beam index, point load overhanging a post, looks like I just scanned the DA6 pic onto the calc for reference;
http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ptloadohang.html
Bear in mind this isn't taking the combined load into account, just the bending.
(ahhh, I see what I was doing, that calc was set up to check the studs on a story and a half design without ridgebeam or ties... fail) aaanyway, you can back out inputs and insert yours.

The interior wall needs a double joist under, I'm sure it would help as a braced wall (an undesigned wall) as opposed to a shear wall, a designed and properly secured wall.

Are you sawing timbers on site or bringing them in?
edit to add, I've been playing with sawing posts with crotches included in the upper part of the post. Essentially the kneebrace, a branch, is part of the post. In that case I believe the "brace" does reduce the span, it is part of the post. The 8" thick post I got yesterday is 24" wide at the top. With one of those on each end of a beam I do believe it has decreased the clear span by 4' where a conventional kneebrace will have lost its ability to rigidly support the beam as the post width shrinks, in that case the true bearing, the rigid support, moves back out to being over the post during seasoning.
Can you do metal fabrication?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 25, 2016, 10:45:33 AM
The calc at http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ptloadohang.html I can use to look at how the unsupported posts respond to a transverse wind force, or equivalent force induced by an earthquake.  I can back out those numbers for the beam and plug in ones for an 8x8 white spruce.  I'm thinking the numbers for the load I can get by looking at the total wind force on the structure and treat the ground resistance as the point load on the end of the beam.  I'm thinking I should look at uniform distribution of the wind load on all the posts, and also look at double or triple that load on a single post and see how it holds up.  If it passes then I'll be happy with no additional knee braces at ground level.

Timbers will be hauled in, I'm thinking.  I don't have enough big trees on the property to pull this off.  I can look around and see if there are areas on the state land where I can fell some decent trees.  A permit for firewood and/or house logs can be had for free.  Actually now that I think about it there is a stand on my trail in that has some nice trees.  The problem is I don't have a mill.  Also the local guy I'm considering can supply my needs for under $2k.  If he has the spruce on hand.  His other species for timbers is poplar, probably balsam poplar.  There's not much info on mechanical properties, but what I can find suggest it's not nearly as suitable for timbers, plus a little more prone to rot.  So if I can't find a supplier of white spruce timbers I may be felling and milling my own.  For just doing timbers a chainsaw mill would work good enough, I reckon.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 25, 2016, 09:25:08 PM
I wouldn't use bam for timbers or lumber but it would be fine for sheathing or boards. The price for timbers seems quite reasonable if the haul isn't too tough... all stuff you'll need to weigh.

You're following dead on with my thoughts on the engineering, which only means 2 novices agree  :D.
Title: Connectors cost more than timber!
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 26, 2016, 12:29:25 AM
So I've drawn up a couple cost estimates on connectors for my wannabe post-frame constructed cabin and got a bit of a shock at what the price is even for the Simpson connectors.  Bottom line is if I use the fancy connectors for every joint then I'll be spending more in steel (or aluminum) than I will in timber.  That just seems wrong.

I'm not a fan of the big black metal plates, so I'm considering connectors that are discreet or invisible.  My connector options are:

1) T-Rex connectors from Connecticut Post and Beam (http://www.ctpostandbeam.com/t-rex-connectors/)
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56491893e4b036fed22b0d6f/56a9667cbfe87318c1c7268e/56db0a8645bf214a0b36208a/1457196171219/881A971A-BD16-4C2C-9BEE-EDABB7A5D6FC.JPG?format=300w)

2) Timberlinx (http://www.timberlinx.com/index.html) connectors
(http://www.timberlinx.com/images/animsmal.gif)

3) Simpson Concealed Joist Tie (https://www.strongtie.com/specialtycollection_architecturalproductsgroup/cjt_tie/p/cjt).  Simpson also has some other connectors such as the HUCQ that was pointed out earlier.  Might be an option where the joint isn't visible.
(https://embed.widencdn.net/img/ssttoolbox/uugixktp1w/439px@1x/CJT5S_RI.jpeg?quality=80&u=ydkg9w&crop=0)

4) or something from the school of joinery,as shown in Jim Rogers' picture here:
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/1232/rafter_tenons-2.JPG)

I find myself drawn to the simplicity and efficacy of option #4 as shown.

For the joining of the 8x8 timbers I will probably go with a Timberlinx connector.  I especially like the 17.5" one meant for connecting three timbers together.  For the smaller members, such as the rim board or the loft joists, I'm wondering if I can't get way with doing #4 and cutting out a shallow pocket then securing it in place with a couple of Timberlok or similar structural screws.  The shoulder will be holding up the joists and the screws are good for several thousand pounds in tension and shear.  I just need to be sure and provide the minimum bearing length to allow the joist to have its full carrying capacity.

That brings me to another problem.  I really like the exposed beams and t&g decking on the underside of the loft.  Here's a sketch of what I am talking about.

(http://i.imgur.com/fCWzzmi.png)

El problemo is that an 8x8 can't span 15' and support the floor too.  Turns out an 8x10 has trouble and can only do it with some select and #1 of a few species.  I could just use sawn or BCI joists and be done with it, but I'd lose the rustic charm of the exposed joists and 2x6 tongue and groove, not to mention a little extra head room.  So I've looked at glulams and a 6-3/4 by 9 inch glulam can easily manage the load of the loft floor.  Would I be compromising the glulam overly much if I were to carve out a pocket 1/2" deep or so and drop in the 4x6 nominal joist?  Or do I need to consider going up to the next size of glulam to ensure I've got enough meat on the beam after carving out the pockets?

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 26, 2016, 06:15:13 AM
That felt undersized. The stud wall is only about 10' from the rear frame... post underfloor and turn the summer beam 90 degrees with joists then also turned 90?

I've used timberlinx, they work fine but are a bit fussy and not cheap either. Whenever I can simply set a joist or rafter on top of a beam and block between, I do if possible.

Recessing into a glulam is getting into deep water. I've done it very lightly at a ridge/rafter connection that then had thru bolts taking the load. Minimum bearing for a seat is 1.5" unless engineered. Modelling how a beam responds to notching is still not entirely clear. Jim Rogers and I were at a conference where Dick Schmidt showed full scale breaking of notched glulams. Video of the tech diving for cover as a large beam broke and bounced around the lab was impressive. A variation of the soffited tennon in #2 performed best. The tennon is in the neutral axis of the girder and diminishes back to leave a full dimension top edge (the extreme fiber in compression). The beam in #4 acts pretty much like a beam of full depth but only the thickness of the remaining wood between notches. The lower remaining wood under the joist does not seem to form a T beam as one would expect, or as many have modeled. That part is trickier than it first seems. The folks at FF have much more experience than me.

Free downloads on this page from the Glulam folks;
http://www.aitc-glulam.org/Shopcart/index.asp
I do have an older copy of the manual, 3rd, (they are up to 6th now) if there is anything inside you need.
You are not out of (relatively) concealed connection options. I'll try to sketch another that I've seen.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 26, 2016, 08:08:42 AM
You can fabricate connectors as well. The correct code path is to have an engineer design it, a certified welder fabricates and you install to design. The awc connections calc has in it most of the tabulated steel plate design numbers from the NDS. Bolt size, spacing and count through whatever guage plate into whatever specific gravity wood gives design capacity.
Anyway this is one very quick sketch of a way to mostly conceal a connector while providing good bearing and some tension/uplift restraint
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/bearingplate.jpg)
For a floor joist/girder, I'd be tempted to put a top flange that bears on the girder rather than relying on bolts and possible tension perp in the girder. Over the summer beam they could be welded to a plate that saddles two of these connectors back to back over the girder. (one possible derivation for summer beam, "sumpter" the most powerful ox on the farm)
Other shear developing connectors for heavy timber are split rings and shear plates, happily I've never had to go there. Those are concealed within a bolted connection... I guess really the drilling precision is probably no tougher than timberlinx.
Title: Joist joinery
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 26, 2016, 11:16:59 AM
Thanks for the ideas.  My welder is only a 110 AC mig welder, and it's only good up to about 1/8" steel.  So I'd need to go to someone else for fabrication, at which point I'd probably just buy a connector like the Simpson CJT and call it good.  I didn't take connector cost into consideration so one option is to drop a joist completely and spread them out a little more.  4x6 nominal might be adequate, or I can upsize to 4x6 rough sawn, or even bigger if needed.  The joist isn't the real problem here though, it's the summer beam.  A post running through the stud wall is definitely an option.  Turning the beam 90 degrees as well as the joists and decking would make that work.  I'll sketch that up as an option.  I'll run these past the boss and see what direction she wants to go.  And then I'll have to figure out how to join the rotated beam in at each end.  Despite my desire to avoid challenging mortise and tenon joints this one looks unavoidable.  Might just end up with "Screw it, throw some BCIs up there".

Edit: your comments on notching the glulam are well heeded.  We won't go there.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 26, 2016, 08:44:31 PM
Here's another thought, all of this is crudely sketched in. It looks like uniform load on the summer beam at 30/10psf is about 4200 lbs. A triple 9.25" lvl works. With a 1-3/8" thick wood ledger well attached to that triple lvl on each side under nominal 4x6 joists (840lbs uniform) and the same wood blocking between joists, a bottom wooden cap to cover the edges and it should work.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/Cabin_16x28_PostFrame_04.jpg)

We're below the prescriptive 1.5" min bearing, so check bearing capacity. The joist area bearing on the ledger is 3.5" wide x 1.375" deep=6.125 sq inches of bearing seat. 420 lbs at each end of a joist/ 6.125=68.57 psi in side grain compression on joist and ledger, from NDS 425 psi is allowable...check.

timbertoolbox.com/sketches/Cabin_16x28_PostFrame_04.skp
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 27, 2016, 02:27:04 AM
I checked in with SWMBO and she's on board with just putting the joists on top of the summer beam.  When I told her it's a lot cheaper and easier I got the thumbs up.  She's half a foot shorter than me and won't miss the headroom in the loft.   :P

Putting a post under the brace wall takes enough load off the other loft beam that I can go with an 8x10.   Current design looks like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/yclZg3r.png)

Note that the brace wall will go all the way up to the decking.  The post in that wall will probably be some built up 2x6.  A 4x4 would be strong enough.

I've been doing some analyses on the 8x8 posts.  I've decided I need to get up close and personal with each post and beam.  To start with I've numbered my posts in a clockwise fashion:

(http://i.imgur.com/cpxpNeZ.png)

Posts 4 and 8 have the most load at 14,213 lbs, nearly double that of posts 1 and 11 at 7,470 lbs.  Doing some simple column load calculations from the Toolbox, I can stack all the load at the top of a 16' unsupported post and a 7x7 made of SPF #3 will hold it.  I figure, and this is where I get dangerous, that the post is braced and the load isn't all at the top.  So I ran some calcs on the three stages of unsupported beam: a 5' column bearing the roof load, a 9' column bearing the roof and loft, and a 3' column bearing the roof, loft, floor, and walls.  For each of those columns a 5"x5" is sufficient.  So I figure I can use 8x8 columns and notch as needed to support my girts without compromising the load-bearing core.

I also re-ran the top plates using 8x10 SPF #3.  With that grade of wood I could conceivably get by with a 7x10 to carry the trusses.  I went with 100 psf load calcs, which was 70 for snow, 20 for dead load, and 10 for wind.  So I'm comfortable that an 8x10 will be sufficient, provided I can get timbers that are at least as strong as indicated for Spruce/Pine/Fir #3.

I'm pretty comfortable with the major frame members as specified.  I still need to do load calcs on the girts and size them appropriately.  I'm thinking that 3x10 rough-sawn is good for  girts at floor and loft level.  I'm also thinking I can get away with a full housing 1.5" deep for a quick and dirty joint with the posts.  Three Timberloks and Bob's your uncle!

(http://i.imgur.com/kfFqwkm.png)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 27, 2016, 06:19:52 AM
I like it, agree with the column bracing analysis. You can drop the girders some to gain loft room if desired, just keep them above 7'. we were deep into it on one job when I realized the injunear had dropped a beam in the entry below 7'... I think he could tell I was ready to reach out and touch someone  :D. The different post loads is part of the difficulty with spot footings, differential settlement. Keep that in mind as you prep the foundation.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 27, 2016, 03:04:02 PM
Well, I'm going to have to upsize my girts.  A 3x10 of SPF #3 just barely passes carrying the floor load.  Adding in the dead load of the 2x6 wall framing and sheathing and it fails.  A 3x11.25 of Doug fir #2 passes, as does a rough 3x12 of SPF #3.  I would rather go deeper than wider, from a simple frame construction standpoint.  Wider than 3" girts and I don't think I can safely notch the posts.  A wider girt is feasible but then I need to look at mortise and tenon joinery. 

Because I'm way out of the prescriptive realm I'm doing all my calcs with conservative numbers.  Load for floor is 40 live and 20 dead.  Load for walls is 10 lbs per s.f. of wall.  I'll confirm this at some point down the road, but I believe those dead load numbers are at least 50% over what actual framed load would be.

I hope quality spruce logs yielding 12" cants are available.  My local guy is getting a load of spruce in August.  I should high-grade all the good stuff.  At least my girts aren't more than 6'-6" long, so if big enough logs are in short supply I can buy 7' rather than 14' boards.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 28, 2016, 05:44:05 AM
That gives room for a redundant ledger under the joists, not a bad thing. Going deeper rather than wider builds strength and stiffness much faster.

Grading, generally... you know generally, most people will balk at a true #2 IF they are paying attention. Most people do not pay attention. I spotted a rafter in a thread a few days ago that was below a #3 and have sure done it myself. If you can tail the sawmill you can begin looking at it as it opens up. If you stock just enough then you are stuck with those decisions, I like having a good bit of extra so I'm not pinched. Things twist or check or I failed to really look a timber over. I like to block between timbers as well as things like light mounts between joists, etc can use up low grade or extras. Point there is, if you keep your head in the game #2 numbers are fine. If you don't keep your head in the game #3 numbers are not going to save you.

Slope of grain is very often the control. The knot often isn't the real problem, it is the grain running out of the timber short and fast in the area surrounding the knot. You want straps of good straight and sound wood running along especially the tension faces. Funny thing about that knot though, because of the cross grain swirl surrounding it, that face draws and shortens during seasoning so that when you crown the timber that knot wants to be on the bottom according to crown and on the top according to strength. That timber just became something shorter.

For awhile I tried to hide or cut out those knots, aligning them into mortises or notches. In reality that simply further compromises the already short grain surrounding the knot and concentrates stress around my sharp corners (a human failing, nature doesn't do sharp corners, she flows stress out) Anyway, morning coffee rambling, off to help a plumber make something go downhill through all my blocking  d*
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 28, 2016, 11:09:47 AM
Just an update of where I am now.

Here's the post frame structure with all the members sized appropriately.
(http://i.imgur.com/WsRV2Dm.png)

The 2x6 framing will go flush with the outside, leaving some exposed timbers inside.
(http://i.imgur.com/OU0XdxG.png)

And here it is all dolled up with windows, doors, and siding (sorta).
(http://i.imgur.com/cVNdvNu.png)

Exact size and placement of the windows are still a big question mark, but it will be something like this.  The door wall which is where the 12 o'clock post is will be facing southeast.  Lots of windows for sunshine and view.  Actually getting to this stage, I'm realizing that the loft is rather dark and enclosed.  Am contemplating a dormer looking out on the lake.  I know they are challenging enough with rafters, what might I need to keep in mind with scissor trusses?  I guess I need to start looking at every dormer framing job and get a sense for how it's done.  Or not.  Keeping it simple has it's up side.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: azgreg on July 28, 2016, 04:18:27 PM
I take it a ladder will be used to access the loft? I really like your model. Look forward to your build.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 28, 2016, 04:36:10 PM
It's a tight fit, but I'm planning on the Jefferson stair.  There's a link to it here (http://www.countryplans.com/alt_stair/).

I'm starting to feel marginally capable in Sketchup now.  The plugins that are available make it an amazing platform.  A simple stick frame structure can be sketched out in literally just a few minutes.  It's a great way to play around with design ideas.  The two I use are Medeeek Truss Plugin (http://design.medeek.com/resources/medeektrussplugin.html) and HouseBuilder (http://www.crai.archi.fr/rld/plugin_details.php?id=185).

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 29, 2016, 05:44:37 AM
The way we typically frame dormers with trusses is to slide several trusses together at each end of the dormer area to form a girder truss (these are designed) and run beams between those girder trusses to carry the dormer. With scissors a gable dormer will want to plane in with the interior ceiling plane. I'm seeing an upper and lower beam there to carry the inner and outer roof planes. That looks nice and adds a window but little room. A shed dormer would probably run from the outside peak at the top end down to the level of the interior peak at its lower end. This would give more useable room but gives some hard interior lines to work around visually. I like that option more if there is a dividing wall between loft room and the greatroom, getting into personal taste. Or the roof could be structural ridge the whole way and rethink that part.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: rich2Vermont on July 29, 2016, 08:30:58 AM
Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on July 28, 2016, 04:36:10 PM
I'm starting to feel marginally capable in Sketchup now.

It's not an easy app to learn, and I'd have to start from scratch again if I ever need it again. But it is pretty cool. It really helped my project with window placement and interior "feel". It's also fun to show off the fly-through feature. It was extremely gratifying to have the result end up so close to the drawing.

Looking forward to see your build come together, especially in such an awesome location. Best wishes!
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: kenhill on July 29, 2016, 11:21:17 AM
There are also light tubes for additional light. 
http://www.solatube.com/

Are you planning any bear determent?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: nailit69 on July 29, 2016, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on July 28, 2016, 04:36:10 PM
It's a tight fit, but I'm planning on the Jefferson stair.  There's a link to it here (http://www.countryplans.com/alt_stair/).

I'm starting to feel marginally capable in Sketchup now.  The plugins that are available make it an amazing platform.  A simple stick frame structure can be sketched out in literally just a few minutes.  It's a great way to play around with design ideas.  The two I use are Medeeek Truss Plugin (http://design.medeek.com/resources/medeektrussplugin.html) and HouseBuilder (http://www.crai.archi.fr/rld/plugin_details.php?id=185).

I'm also doing a "Jefferson" stair with a landing and turn in our cabin.  I'd never seen one before and it was just what I needed for the limited space I had available.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on July 29, 2016, 10:08:52 PM
A structural ridgebeam in lvl with a midpost could be as small as 3 1/2x 11 7/8" (I think I'd bump it to a triple or a double 14"). An 8x12 in spruce if it is very nice. I think that might make for more useable space and easier dormers if you go that route, another option to think about anyway.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on July 31, 2016, 06:32:10 PM
Thanks all for the feedback and encouragement.  I've been consulting with my client, and I'm doing a lot of modifications here and there to get a floor plan she's happy with.  Still trying to keep posts out of the open floor, so am favoring trusses at the moment.  There are two interior posts now, both located in interior walls.  We'll see what the implications are of some of our design choices.  I'm liking this 18x30 layout with a 6' knee wall.  Dropping roof pitch to 8:12 to keep the overall height the same.  Will post more once I know this will pass my necessary load calculations.

(http://i.imgur.com/rccesIu.png)

@ kenhill,
I haven't made bear deterrent or mitigation a design concern.  Exterior doors will open out, so that the door jamb will provide reinforcement on any bear pushing on the door.  I'll probably have heavy plywood covers for the windows.  The area is not heavily infested with bears, to my understanding, so things like nail boards may not be necessary.  Hopefully we can find the right degree of deterrence as we go along.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 01, 2016, 01:55:54 PM
Here's where I should probably trust the numbers, but I want to sketch out what I think is a viable joint where the tie beam and girts all meet on the post.  In addition to holding the frame together these are supporting the loft floor.  Size of beam is 8x10 and girts are 3x12, rough sawn.  I've notched a full housing for the girts and beam 1-1/2 inches deep.  That leaves a core in the post that is 5" x 6-1/2".  According to my load calcs a post 4.9" x 4.9" will carry this load.  That is a cross-section of 24.01 square inches, whereas my notched post still has 32.5 square inches, an upgrade of 35%.  Is that cutting too close to the bone?  Calcs are assuming HemFir #2.  Anyone have any thoughts if this is an acceptable joint design, or should I use hangers for the girts?

(http://i.imgur.com/0WjBrv2.png)

Edit: Forgot about the part of the post between the beam and the girt.  On each side that is an area of 3.5" x 1.5", for a total of 10.5 square inches.  So my notched post has an area of 43.0 square inches, which is 79% more than the minimum.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on August 01, 2016, 08:06:09 PM
I'd be tempted to frame the walls under the girt area, install a rim joist resting on the wall, unnotched at the post, then frame above the floor.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 02, 2016, 01:05:52 AM
Hmm, a hybrid platform framing / post and beam construction.  That would put more load on the girt below, but I don't doubt that it would hold it fine.  Hang on a sec, let's be certain.  Go to the Toolbox and select a uniformly loaded beam, with double the load for the floor girt.  And...

(http://i.imgur.com/Yfd7w5O.png)

Nope, misses by || that much.

I think where I've got the girts and beams coming in at the same point I will opt to use a hanger.  Something like the HUC212-2, which has an allowable load of ~3,000 lbs.  Two of those should be able to hold up a girt loaded with 3200 lbs.  I could frame in the 2x6 wall underneath beforehand to give it a little extra oomph, although I think that might be overdoing it.  These hangers will be covered by the framed wall so I don't have to worry about it looking too industrial.

So my new and improved joint will look like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/Q4xYnat.png)

The Simpson bracket does great against uplift and down load.  I have my doubts about pullout resistance since it has no double-shear nailing flange.  So a Timberlok screw or two should help in that regard.

Edit: Actually, the girt loads for the loft aren't as big as the loads for the floor, because there are two posts supporting the tie beams.  If I were to have a frame and rim joist supporting the loft, all supported by a floor girt, the max design load would be ~4850 lbs.  So the floor girt could hold that.  But to give me some peace of mind I'll proceed with hanging those girts with the StrongTie hangers.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on August 02, 2016, 05:58:30 AM
Additional load is half a 2nd floor bay to the next joist and the upper wall load. Visualize it with tall studs and a nailer at 8' across the studs.
The timberlocks will provide a little lateral in the hanger (diameter, depth, density and toenail factor) but the sheathing will do the job if it spans across the post. Another way to provide that tie is a strap from girt to girt over the post and hidden by the sheathing. A roll of Simpson strapping is very handy to have around, or repurposed heavy lumber banding in a pinch.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 02, 2016, 11:14:11 AM
Quote from: Don_P on August 02, 2016, 05:58:30 AM
Additional load is half a 2nd floor bay to the next joist and the upper wall load. Visualize it with tall studs and a nailer at 8' across the studs.
The timberlocks will provide a little lateral in the hanger (diameter, depth, density and toenail factor) but the sheathing will do the job if it spans across the post. Another way to provide that tie is a strap from girt to girt over the post and hidden by the sheathing. A roll of Simpson strapping is very handy to have around, or repurposed heavy lumber banding in a pinch.

Of course, the beam will be doing most of the work.  On the floor below all the joists are hanging off the girts.  In looking at the loft it's so much less because the beams are carrying the joists, so the girts  are almost ornamental.  I could probably just toenail in several Timberloks alone and not bother with the hangers.  Or rethink the girt completely.  On the side walls I just need something to support the loft decking.  I could balloon frame the 2x6 wall like you describe and then toenail a girt on the inside.  It wouldn't need to hold up much load, so some nails and Timberloks would suffice.  The picture below shows the middle loft bay framed like that.  The up side to that is the walls and sheathing can go up before I put in the loft decking.  My other design requires the decking go down first much like platform construction.

(http://i.imgur.com/1BgOBum.png)

I like this much better.  The girt really isn't a girt, not even a ledger board.  It's only slightly load bearing.  In fact, at 40+20 psf it carries about 390 lbs.  I guess it's just another joist.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on August 02, 2016, 10:01:52 PM
That's what I was thinking. The sketch shows the downside, notice the difference in fire containment in those two wall assemblies. Don't forget to block the stud bays between floors behind that ledger.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 03, 2016, 02:59:37 AM
Yep, I'll be putting in blocking every 4' so that sheathing has complete attachment.  It's just too much of a nuisance to put that in every wall, until the design is semi-final.

So here's the post frame cabin, version 2.0

(http://i.imgur.com/6LimUx6.png)

I've bumped the footprint out by two feet in width and length.  I added a bay, and shortened the bay width in the process.  The posts and tie beams are 8x8 rough-sawn spruce.  The truss plates are 8x10, and the loft beams are 8x12.  I could just squeak by with 8x10 on the loft beams, but to do so would require compromising some of my safety margin.  Walls are 16' from top of truss plate to bottom of rim joist.


The floor joists are 11-7/8 I-joists on 16" center:

(http://i.imgur.com/Tt4ZKcQ.png)


I have a post under each of the two loft beams that have the biggest load.  Posts are built-up from dimensional lumber so that they will be the same width as the interior walls.  The 2x6 wall will be a braced wall with plywood sheathing.

(http://i.imgur.com/jeM2q9G.png)


I dropped the loft joists down to be flush with the beams.  Can't really carve the beams up so will be hanging joists with concealed flange hangers.  I'm going to try painting them in black or something looking like aged rusty iron.  Tongue and groove 2x6 decking will go on top.

(http://i.imgur.com/tdxOomR.png)


The walls will be framed out with 2x6.  Because these aren't load bearing the window and door headers will be minimal.  I'm planning on scissor trusses with an 8:12 top chord pitch and an 6:12 pitch for the bottom chord.  Eave overhang is 20 inches.

(http://i.imgur.com/irleC6q.png)


Half inch OSB sheathing will wrap around the entire structure.  Roofing will be standing seam metal and siding will be sheet metal.  I want to build this and not have to worry about maintaining paint or checking for popped screws in the roof.

(http://i.imgur.com/YjzpOz6.png)


Timbers will be connected to each other with Timberlinx connectors.  Loft beams will be have a full housing 1.5 inches deep to give full beam support.

(http://i.imgur.com/4RmsYh9.png)


Posts will have timber pads sitting on top of packed gravel.  Gravel footing will be 6" deep and at least 3' x 3' to give me plenty of surface area.  I'll use ground anchors and cable to tie the structure down to the ground, much like a mobile home.






Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on August 05, 2016, 06:51:31 AM
The angle of force I've usually seen drawn through materials is 45 degrees, gravel included. Superior walls install manual has some info. If it is only 6" thick the pier blocks would need to extend to within 6" of the edge to make full use of the 3' width. I've been wondering about a wire fencing lined gravel filled trench under each line with the wire wrapping the rock to retain it... a long gabion. Restraint is an anchor screwed through the bottom of the trench.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 06, 2016, 11:48:56 AM
Quote from: Don_P on August 05, 2016, 06:51:31 AM
The angle of force I've usually seen drawn through materials is 45 degrees, gravel included. Superior walls install manual has some info. If it is only 6" thick the pier blocks would need to extend to within 6" of the edge to make full use of the 3' width. I've been wondering about a wire fencing lined gravel filled trench under each line with the wire wrapping the rock to retain it... a long gabion. Restraint is an anchor screwed through the bottom of the trench.

I didn't show it on the last sketch but the piers I am considering are assembled from pressure treated lumber.  The picture below shows on the left what I was thinking of.  Clicking on the pics makes the dimensions readable for my old eyes.

(http://i.imgur.com/lXUSHJH.png)

As drawn it provides 12.1 square feet of bearing area.  It also requires 8' of pressure treated 8x8 and 17' of pressure treated 2x12.  Rough estimate of cost for the lumber alone is about $150 per pier.  On the right is a pier made of old railroad sleepers.  As drawn it provides 11.1 square feet of bearing area and costs from $10 to $30 per pier.

I hadn't really given the piers much thought, but your comment got me thinking about anchors too.  Of the various types of ground screws and anchors out there I am thinking something like this: http://milspecanchors.com/5-8-x-36-with-6-helix-screw-anchor/
I have a gas auger, and I figure that I can weld up a jig to hold an eye-bolt in place while I drive it into the ground.  Pull-out strength on that guy is ostensibly 3,500 lbs.  Cables and clamps will secure it to an eye-bolt at the base of the post.  The other thing to think about is securing the top railroad tie to the post.  I'm probably in the realm of a custom fabrication, but I think something like this will do the job.

(http://i.imgur.com/NjAGBUG.png)

The lower 4 railroad ties will be fastened together and allowed to float.  Or, I could anchor them to the ground using some sort of lashing system that goes down with the gravel.  The plane between the lower ties and the upper cross piece will be free to allow movement from ground heave or settling, and to allow shimming between them when I need to level the cabin.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 07, 2016, 12:36:36 PM
It's a new week, so it's time for yet another redesign consideration!  I've realized the potential utility of having a band saw mill (band sawmill or bandsaw mill perhaps?) on the property and cutting most of my lumber from my trees and trees I can get nearby.  Before I go out and buy a mill I want to look at ways I can replace lumber bought at the yard with lumber milled on site.  The obvious one is to go from trusses and sheathing to rafters and decking.  Which will require a ridge beam.  So here's the ridge beam and posts that Don_P suggested a while back.  And it doesn't look too far off from where I started this thread! :D

(http://i.imgur.com/SS9QaO5.png)

I've started some load calcs and it looks like with a max unsupported span on the ridge beam of 11' 1" it would take a 9x12 timber equivalent to SPF #2.   I can get by with a triple LVL at 9.25 inches.  That's with the two center posts as shown.  I haven't run this design past my wife yet, so I don't know what she thinks of a post in the middle of the living area.  It certainly gives it the rustic Alaska cabin look.  If I use a triple LVL at 11-7/8" I can increase the ridge beam span to 204", which allows me to take out one of the two posts.  I've still got a lot of things to figure out with this design, among them the timber structure, timber joinery, eave and gable overhangs, insulating the roof, etc.  Cutting and milling my own lumber has the potential of saving a lot of cash that I would be spending at the local yard.  It also will add a heck of a lot of time and effort to my project.  At this point I don't really have a lot of either money or time, so the choice isn't an easy one.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on August 07, 2016, 09:42:29 PM
For one house... ahh who am I fooling, it is just about always cheaper to have someone else own the mill and buy the timbers direct from the mil. If there is a portable mill nearby and if you have the timber that is another option, you cut and deck the wood then call in a portable mill. Having a mill opens up a lot of options though, there's a 24" wide x 8" thick white pine natural Y post sitting on the outfeed now.
Glad I could help with the decision  ;D
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: NathanS on August 08, 2016, 09:25:20 AM
A little saw mill is high up on my priority list right now. We have so much white Ash that is getting ready to die from EAB. Tons of mature 20-24" DBH.

Will you be lifting the timbers/LVLs on your own? I just lifted two 36' 11 7/8 LVLs by myself for the second floor deck. It would not have been enjoyable to raise those 30 feet up to a ridge beam.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 08, 2016, 10:07:51 AM
Quote from: NathanS on August 08, 2016, 09:25:20 AM
A little saw mill is high up on my priority list right now. We have so much white Ash that is getting ready to die from EAB. Tons of mature 20-24" DBH.

Will you be lifting the timbers/LVLs on your own? I just lifted two 36' 11 7/8 LVLs by myself for the second floor deck. It would not have been enjoyable to raise those 30 feet up to a ridge beam.

I don't plan on working solo.  My wife and son will be available, and I am hoping I can lure some friends out for a weekend of fun.  I'm planning on building a shear leg hoist, or something along those lines.  See Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_legs
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on August 20, 2016, 02:16:12 AM
I've spent the last several hours, and several ounces of fine bourbon, trying to work my way through the ASCE 7-02 tome on wind and snow loads.  My remaining life is now several hours shorter and my supply of bourbon is diminished as well, but I don't feel like I've made much progress cutting this Gordian knot.  Ah, the fun to be had on a Friday night!  c*



In other news, I am awaiting the delivery of my Woodland Mills HM 130 bandsaw mill.  My wife, who has been very tolerant of my recent obsessive-compulsive behavior, seems to be getting weary of my boyish excitement.  I'm thinking of composing a tune for her. something along the lines of I'm picking out a bandsaw for you...

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKXcs7Vh1TM)

You think it will win her over?
Title: Building a 12x16 shed
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on February 23, 2017, 01:19:29 PM
Life goes on, thankfully.  I brought my father out to the property in September and we spent some time hunting moose and caribou.  It was a wonderful trip that yielded no ungulates but we were serenaded almost nightly by a wolf pack.  That probably had something to do with the scarcity of moose.   :o

Dad had a great time, but the trip highlighted a major family issue that we are all coming to terms with.  My parents are nearing their mid-80s and it became clear this year that my dad can no longer take 10-day hunting trips away from my mother.  I would like for them to come out and stay on our property together, so I've decided to put up a 12x16 guest cabin that they can stay in when they make the trip this summer.  This is going to be a compressed schedule project and I'm willing to sacrifice quality or longevity for the sake of quick construction.  If I get it dried in before the spring melt I can finish up enough for it to be habitable come July.

My plan is for 2x6 stick frame construction built on pressure-treated skids.  The skids will rest upon railroad tie piers which will sit on a crushed gravel base.  If I go with a basic roof I'll probably have about 6:12 pitch with metal roofing.  Rafter ties will serve as ceiling joists and I'll probably go with strapping over the top to keep the rafters from uplifting.

Or... it would be nice to get some storage/sleep space by putting in a loft.  If I use 10' studs and balloon frame a loft floor at about 8' or so, that gives me a knee wall of just under 24".  A 12:12 pitch roof would give me a max ceiling height of just under 8'.  My problem is I don't know if I can get way with the loft joists serving as rafter ties, or do I need a structural ridge?  I'd really like to have a non-structural ridge so that all load is on the non-gable walls, which sit above the PT skids.  Assuming loft joists are "good enough" to resist rafter thrust, I'm wondering if balloon framing is sufficient to hold the wall studs in tension.  Am I overthinking this?

Edit: Doh!  I figured out my loft joist issue.  I was envisioning joists connected to the rim board via joist hangers.  There is no need for that, as I can put the joists above the rim board.  The rim board will bear the load, and the joist will extend beyond so that I can nail the joist into the wall studs.  That will give me a connection that will hold in tension.  I'm still concerned about the fact that the rafters will sit on a top plate that will be ~24" above the rafter ties.  I guess a steep roof pitch with metal roofing will shed the snow readily enough that I needn't get too concerned about rafter thrust.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2017, 08:34:52 AM
Try drawing it with 16' joists extending through the wall to form soffit and tie connection to the rafters outside, beyond the wall line ~2'.  Also consider a gravel pad and railroad ties laid and lapped log cabin fashion for the foundation rather than piers.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on February 25, 2017, 06:01:20 PM
Took me a while to puzzle out the 16' joist suggestion but I think I have it.  Actually am planning on railroad tie cribbing for my piers, not the wee little concrete block things.  I'll play with Sketchup a bit and see what I can put together.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on February 25, 2017, 06:46:56 PM
Alrighty then!  Here's what I think you're suggesting Don.  It seems pretty obvious once I've drawn it up, does a great job at keeping the rafters in tension against the outward thrust.

(http://i.imgur.com/yOyvQYf.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/OWxWWxe.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/HnX2R9U.png)

I had been hoping to cheat the top plate up a little bit to get a few more inches of head room in the loft.  Having the joists run out to the eaves keeps my knee wall at 24" so I'll just have to make do with a bit less head room.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on February 25, 2017, 08:08:10 PM
Yup, you got it. Looks good to my eye. Wouldn't take much more to roof the porch, the slippery slope  :D
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 15, 2017, 05:32:17 PM
Saw these tracks last week.  The imprint near my glove isn't sharp enough to tell for certain, but I'm thinking it's a lynx galloping through the deep snow.

(http://i.imgur.com/vToWqyQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: VannL on March 16, 2017, 10:27:32 AM
That's a big boy out there. Hope he won't mind the new neighbor. LOL
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 16, 2017, 02:02:36 PM
I also saw a red fox that trip.  It was trotting across a lake as I was crossing on my trail.  It heard me coming and bolted.  It was cool, the biggest fur-bearer I've seen yet.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Toyotaboy on March 16, 2017, 08:00:18 PM
Lynx tracks are cool! I have a couple of wolves pics on the trail cam. Thanks on the Imgur. worked great!
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 28, 2017, 04:54:58 PM
I've been hauling materials to the property the last couple of weekends.  For remote building the big metric is the weight of materials hauled.  So far I'm up to about 5 tons for the guest cabin.  Here's my new heavy hauler, a komatik style of freight sled that I crafted from a black cottonwood I milled last fall.

(http://i.imgur.com/GFLhV92.jpg)

I've made three runs with this new sled so far.  My first trip was with a towbar I welded myself using 1.5" angle iron.  I think the angle was up to the job, but my welding wasn't.  I hit a stump and broke the bar.  So I turned to Craigslist and found a local welder that was available and affordable.  With my new towbar I can haul some pretty heavy loads.  This is a stack of plywood that is in spitting distance of 2,000 lbs.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZugSA8q.jpg)

Edit: Also saw a cow and calf moose.  As usual, my picture-taking is abysmal.  It was some comfort seeing them there though, glad to see the wolves hadn't chased all the moose away.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Toyotaboy on March 28, 2017, 08:37:27 PM
Nice sled! That is a great idea.  [cool]
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 28, 2017, 09:39:00 PM
Thanks.  The gold standard for hauling freight is a four-ski version like this:

(http://itcteacheronthetrail.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/snowmachineyentna.jpg)

But those cost about $3,000 and mine I built for about $450.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Toyotaboy on March 29, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
Damn, three grand? Holy crap! Reminds me of the Amish sleigh we used one year for our lumberjack weekend. Same thing all wood but twice as high. Pulled by work horses.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 13, 2017, 05:04:02 PM
For anyone interested in the progress of the guest cabin build, I started a separate thread: 12x16 guest cabin at remote Alaska property (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14680)

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 16, 2021, 10:16:48 AM
I'm doing so much work on things other than the guest cabin, I thought it best to put my updates in my main thread.

2021 Update: I retired last month and am now focused on improving our remote property.  I've got a 16-year-old nephew on deck for the month of July, so I am working now on getting materials out to the property while the lake is frozen.

But first, let's see who else is in the neighborhood:

(https://i.imgur.com/1tnO5IA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lmRUyee.jpg)

I ordered a load of lumber and bagged gravel from the local building supply, and they hauled it up to lake Louise for a small *cough* fee.

(https://i.imgur.com/Kzt600u.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zJMNVlv.jpg)

I got some help from an acquaintance with a cabin in the area.  It took us two days and five round trips but we got all the lumber moved.  I've started working on the gravel but it is brutal work for a lone greybeard.

(https://i.imgur.com/YSjqSp4.jpg)

There are still lots of caribou in the area, but the population has been reduced by at least one:

(https://i.imgur.com/aq9d8T6.jpg)

The northern lights have been spectacular.  I'll see if I can capture them with my phone, but don't hold your breath.  The design for my freight sled in the picture above was inspired by DaveOrr (https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=14738.0)

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 17, 2021, 10:16:27 AM
The tracks in the top two pictures above are from a lynx.  I've got a game camera that I intend to install this weekend.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: NathanS on March 17, 2021, 01:52:32 PM
Congrats on your retirement.

I'm still in my 30s and my back hurts just looking at all those bags of gravel. My rule is move it with the tractor, and when the pile is too small to scoop just smooth it out. Then, of course, make sure the mower is facing away from the expensive stuff the first couple times of the year.   :D


Looking forward to seeing your progress this summer.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: azgreg on March 17, 2021, 08:40:20 PM
At today's prices that much lumber should have an armed guard.

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 18, 2021, 11:46:22 AM
While I wait for Sketchup Chris to get his hands out of his pockets and move some gravel, I wonder if I could get some input on whether my generator shed roof needs outlookers.

[Edit to add: the issue is the weight of a roof heavily loaded with snow.  The only support for the rake end comes from the 2x8 sub-fascia at the eaves.  My concern is whether that provides enough support to hold up 70 psf of snow.]

(https://i.imgur.com/tcvddjI.png)

I want 24" eave overhang, including the rake walls.  I have a ground snow load of 70 p.s.f. and the rafters are 2x8.  Using the uniformly loaded overhanging beam calculator at http://www.timbertoolbox.com/Calcs/ohangunild.htm I get a result that suggests that outlookers aren't needed.  I used a span of 24" and an overhang of 24", load of 420 lbs per linear foot, and #2 SPF.

I'm not well-versed in the engineering concepts involved and am not certain of the result.  Does this look right?

(https://i.imgur.com/MGBOETj.png)

Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: NathanS on March 18, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Pretty sure the WFCM prescriptive design calls for outriggers/ladder framing. Skip the rafter on the edge of the gable, and run a 2x8 ladder frame that is 48" long, block it solid on the gable wall. Then you can also double up the first interior rafter.

Having trouble loading the WFCM right now to link the page number.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 18, 2021, 04:21:11 PM
Quote from: NathanS on March 18, 2021, 01:39:41 PM
Pretty sure the WFCM prescriptive design calls for outriggers/ladder framing. Skip the rafter on the edge of the gable, and run a 2x8 ladder frame that is 48" long, block it solid on the gable wall. Then you can also double up the first interior rafter.

Having trouble loading the WFCM right now to link the page number.

NathanS, thanks for pointing me to the WFCM.  I've got a 2015 version of the WFCM and it lays it out for me nicely.  It took me a little time to process what you're describing, but with a little searching on "ladder framing" it became clearer.  It's probably overkill with 2x8 outlookers but here's how I think I would do it.  Rafters in white, outlookers in yellow, blocking in red:

(https://i.imgur.com/PV9YAOK.png)

Edit to add: In my original design I have the top plates level for the short and tall shed walls, and the rafters have birdsmouth cuts.  I think instead I will cut the studs in those walls at an angle so that all the top plates are in a plane.  The rafters can then sit flush on the walls.  That will allow me to overlap the top plates to tie the walls together.  Keeping in mind that this is for a shed, is there anything I would need to be aware of when having a pitched top plate?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: NathanS on March 18, 2021, 08:24:28 PM
That pic is how I'd do it.

Are you wondering if having those top plates all at an angle, the roof might want to slide down? I don't think there should be much force that way.

Structural hurricane screws (timberlok) would be good for uplift... and you know that the roof would never slide around on you either.  The whole thing would have to roll away like a tumbleweed.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Don_P on March 19, 2021, 08:25:08 AM
I'm impressed and can retire now  ;D

Nathan's last comment is one to consider, that overhang is a lot of sail on a very small lightly secured building. Overhangs do protect but there is a price in high wind.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 19, 2021, 08:40:09 AM
Quote from: NathanS on March 18, 2021, 08:24:28 PM
That pic is how I'd do it.

Are you wondering if having those top plates all at an angle, the roof might want to slide down? I don't think there should be much force that way.

Structural hurricane screws (timberlok) would be good for uplift... and you know that the roof would never slide around on you either.  The whole thing would have to roll away like a tumbleweed.

Quote from: Don_P on March 19, 2021, 08:25:08 AM
I'm impressed and can retire now  ;D

Nathan's last comment is one to consider, that overhang is a lot of sail on a very small lightly secured building. Overhangs do protect but there is a price in high wind.

Thank you both for the feedback.  I have confirmed that the Simpson truss screws I have (SDWC 15600) meet the uplift requirements in the WFCM.  As long as I follow the prescriptions for the rest of the shed it should hold together.  As to tumbling down the hill, the best I can do is to anchor to the ground using mobile home tie-downs.  Although now I'm thinking that it might be wise to dial the overhang back to 18".
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 23, 2021, 10:10:02 AM
Another busy weekend.  I'm thinking maybe I should go back to work just so I can get a little rest.

I finally finished hauling out the gravel from my prior delivery.  It was 120 bags of 3/4 minus, each weighing 60 lbs.  All moved by hand into a freight sled and hauled out to the property.  I have a couple different freight sleds, and the one that works best for this job is a Siglin style that most folks call a 'slick sled".  It's basically a single 10' sheet of UHMW polyethylene formed into a tub.  There are twenty-two bags of gravel in the picture below (apologies for the scary mug in foreground):

(https://i.imgur.com/rGh8ib4.jpg)

I also hauled out the trusses for the two larger buildings planned for the summer.  The caribou were in abundance everywhere.  I'm thankful I had my 20 lb. Havanese to protect me!

(https://i.imgur.com/4m1Lavk.jpg)

It was unseasonably cold, but with the clear nights we got to see some impressive northern lights.  We planned to return home on Monday morning, but our departure was delayed because the truck wouldn't start.  I had parked on the frozen lake and it got down as low as -35 F.  I probably had some ice crystals forming in the fuel line.  While the wife and dog warmed up in the lodge I rode my snowmachine back to the cabin and fetched my generator, then got the engine block heater running.  After a few hours of warming the engine and charging the battery i was able to get it to fire up.  We made it home about 10:00 p.m. last night.  Back before my dad had a garage, he would put HEET (https://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/) in the fuel tank with every fill-up in the winter.  It's a practice I need to adopt.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Blessed on March 26, 2021, 11:01:48 AM
      TC, I built my generator shed just like the last picture. Been there a while now.  Best thing I did was insulate it,  r 21. I brought an air conditioner out last fall so I could mount it on the shed n use it as a walk in cooler for moose season.  When we harvest one now,  the clock starts on getting it flown out n processed.  Now I'm looking for a small freezer.  I have a vacuum sealer there now for more delicate meats,  liver, heart n such.  Anyway I'd recommend insulating it.  You could put a few of those boo in there. And a few lynx for the table. 
     I got enough material freighted last year to build a 8x12 shell to try n keep the bears from sampling the atvs. I did get the area cleared of 4' Devils club now gotta get building done.
     Nice write up , stay safe. 
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on March 31, 2021, 10:35:38 PM
I spent some time last week on widening my trail, then started in on building the generator shed.  It will sit on pads and cribbing, but I needed to clear the squishy organic material first.  It was about 12 to 18 inches down to the bottom of the peat where I struck the unconsolidated glacial till that is the closest thing to bedrock in my area.

It took two days to excavate the four holes.  I don't remember the post-hole digging bar being quite so heavy!

(https://i.imgur.com/hswoOb1.jpg?1)

A local inspector dropped by and monitored my progress for a while.  He didn't seemed very impressed, probably left out of boredom.

(https://i.imgur.com/2dmmMVT.jpg?1)

Thankfully we are finally having spring weather.  It was about 15 F that day, and when the sun was out it was almost enough to make you peel off the jacket. 
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 13, 2021, 10:23:01 AM
Work goes on.  I made some progress on the shed floor, getting the cribbing leveled and starting on the joists.  Then I got a jam in my nail gun and couldn't find the backup.   I was dead in the water.

But my attention has been diverted to hauling more materials.  The weather is finally turning to spring and the snow is melting fast.  I have probably a week before the trails become impassable.  So back to hauling.

I did see several more bald eagles on Monday.  According to their calendar it is already spring and they are starting to arrive.  i expect I will see the trumpeter swans on their lake in the next few days.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: jsahara24 on April 13, 2021, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: ChugiakTinkerer on April 13, 2021, 10:23:01 AM
Then I got a jam in my nail gun and couldn't find the backup.   I was dead in the water.

Start swinging your hammer!  haha....I framed my cabin with a hammer and when it came time to sheath it, I broke down and bought an air nailer....look forward to seeing more pictures of your progress/critters...
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Blessed on April 15, 2021, 12:27:59 PM
    I remember spending a couple days on lake Louise.  Was near 37 years ago so there wasn't much of a campground.  The lake was just going out. With a hundred feet of open water on the edge.  Till the wind blew the other direction. 
   My beautiful wife n me were sitting on the shoreline enjoying the sun n stunning views. We opened a bag of doritos chips n low n behold a seagull shows up.  Pretty rough looking bird too. So we flip him a chip.  He gobbles it it one seagull fashion gulp. And typical seagull fashion,  feed one and a dozen more show up.  Middle of nowhere Alaska on a frozen lake. Back then we could drive to the lake.  So we did.  And got stuck in the round cobble. So I'm pushing n beautiful wife driving.  We finally get moving n I'm hollering go go.  She thinks I'm saying no no n stops.  Drove home on a squeeking wheel bearing.  Man that was a  fun memorable trip
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Blessed on April 15, 2021, 12:36:49 PM
I forgot to mention the brown bear that was roaming around the campground the night we stayed there.  Kept walking around huffing most of the night . Must have just woke up n probably knew the park was there,  checking things out.  He avoided us as I suspect he knew we were there.  Just doing some bear stuff
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 21, 2021, 11:05:37 AM
Thankfully spring is coming to Lake Louise and I have to put an end to the winter season.  I had another truckload of materials brought out last week and my wife and I busted butts to get it all hauled before things started to melt.  The generator shed will have to wait until June when we can get back out there by float plane.

I think the load in this picture is the most weight I have hauled.  Certainly wins the category of imposing size:

(https://i.imgur.com/p2RtCPG.jpg)

The caribou are still hanging around, doing their best to survive until the snow is gone and they can fill their bellies.  Last Thursday I saw a lone caribou on the trail that looked weak - slow to recognize me as a potential threat and stumbling as it attempted to flee through the crusty snow.  A couple days later we saw a flock of ravens and a couple of bald eagles feeding on a fresh carcass about a half mile further up the trail.  I couldn't say if it was the same one, but it seems likely.  When we came out on Monday there was a fresh set of wolf tracks leaving the kill.

(https://i.imgur.com/3UjJVYv.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 21, 2021, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: Blessed on April 15, 2021, 12:27:59 PM
...
And got stuck in the round cobble. So I'm pushing n beautiful wife driving.  We finally get moving n I'm hollering go go.  She thinks I'm saying no no n stops.  Drove home on a squeeking wheel bearing.  Man that was a  fun memorable trip
Sounds familiar!  :P

Spousal communication continues to be an evolving issue.  We've gotten pretty good with our hand signals while riding, but there's a long way to go.

P.S. I'm still tickled by the idea of bringing out an A/C unit.  I just may do that, in the event I ever get another moose.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Blessed on April 22, 2021, 08:36:02 AM
   Yeah I think having the air conditioner with the cool air circulating around will help lots.  I was thinking about building an insulated box around my genny for noise and to be able to warm it up easier,  faster so I can use it.  It took the bearings out of one cold starting it. There's a barrel stove in the genny shed also. 
    I was thinking that I could just put a Mr heater in the insulated box around the genny n make things easier.
     To control the temperature from overheating when the genny is running i will have a fan plugged into it that runs when the genny runs.
    Just a  thought.  I built my shed 10' from our cabin.  My thoughts on this are concerns if there's a fire in the cabin.  And having a place to get into if the cabin burned and you needed a place to get in to. I  have a 55 gallon drum i want to fill with extra left over gear.  A tent , tarps. Survival stuff.  With a lock band lid.  Chained up in the fork of a tree to keep it from rusting up n high enough so it didn't get buried in the snow.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on April 26, 2021, 08:56:41 AM
There are plenty of folks on the Alaska Outdoors forum with experience in remote living.  One of them said that if you're living remote it's really just a question of when, not if, you'll have to deal with a fire.  With that in mind I'm building the generator shed a good distance from other structures.  The battery bank and solar charge controller will go in another shed.

I've got a spare 55 gallon barrel and I like what you've described for basic survival stuff that should go into it.  The most useful item would be a charged cell phone.  Need to cogitate on that notion for a bit...
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: Blessed on April 27, 2021, 07:41:26 AM
My beautiful wife likes the idea of being able to communicate while out on our snogos.  I found a set of walkie-talkies that have a microphone in line.  Clips to your shirt collar. Ear bud for speaker.  We can talk to each other while riding.  Fits in your shirt pocket. 
  Bought them at a  garage sale so I even got them cheap.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: OlJarhead on September 29, 2021, 07:20:14 AM
Just perusing old threads and wondering how you are making out now?
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: ChugiakTinkerer on October 04, 2021, 12:33:40 PM
Greetings OJ!

I've got a lot of stuff to write up, as it's been a busy summer.  While no work has yet started on the CABIN that is the topic of this thread, much was accomplished in making the place more livable.  I'll upload a bunch of photos and get to work updating.
Title: Re: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story in a Winter Wonderland
Post by: pmichelsen on November 16, 2021, 09:01:16 AM
Can't wait for the update, this is one of my favorite projects on here.