CountryPlans Forum

Seems that the war is not a question of if... just when exactly... sums up the joke that is the fox network too.. :-/
http://harpers.org/archive/2007/08/hbc-90000995

watch this video to see how Fox is just using the exact same catch phrases and reasons for war with iraq... 9-11, AL Quieda, terrorist attack... Same words same phrases just replace the word Iraq with Iran

When you see it like this in video with the dates of the broadcast it is very scary :-/

http://foxattacks.com/iran

I've heard the noises the chimp has been making.  Possibly if he goes ahead with it he will be able to destroy our military completely.   :o

Not just the military Glenn the whole damned country

That will be the blowback we have all been waiting for.  

Self sufficiency and a good emergency survival supply never looked better than it does now.



http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070830_war.htm

At least the Fed is making preparations to take care of the ones who don't agree with their policies.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57404

QuoteNot just the military Glenn the whole damned country

Wasn't that the goal in the first place? A North American Union can't exist with a sovereign United States. The destruction of the military, the economy and our working middle class MUST occur before the Union can function. Mr. Bush is succeding at all three by keeping us bogged down in the Iraqi Civil War. A religious war that can't ever be won.

Well said, Willet.  I was going to say something similar but you said it better than I could and those with their eyes closed already think I'm crazy (OK - I am but that's beside the point).

Yes - it was said before Bush took office, by a retired Navy officer, Al Martin, that anytime Daddy Bush wanted a business to fail he put W in charge of it.  More going on here than it appears on the surface.

Heil Bush, the North American Union, the NWO and our new coming currency, the Amero.  

Mexican trucks start rolling here Thursday.  

We are expected to go along with this willingly and without question.  Most are complying without a second thought.

Makes me feel like Donald Duck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdpSU-UWkso

QuoteHeil Bush, the North American Union, the NWO and our new coming currency, the Amero.  

Note -- for those with any question the above was sarcastic.

Anyone remember this song?  eve of Destruction (http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=187071)

"We Are Going To Hit Iran. Bigtime"
by Maccabee
Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 03:50:24 PM PDT

I have a friend who is an LSO on a carrier attack group that is planning and staging a strike group deployment into the Gulf of Hormuz. (LSO: Landing Signal Officer- she directs carrier aircraft while landing) She told me we are going to attack Iran. She said that all the Air Operation Planning and Asset Tasking are finished. That means that all the targets have been chosen, prioritized, and tasked to specific aircraft, bases, carriers, missile cruisers and so forth.

I asked her why she is telling me this.

Her answer was really amazing.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/1/183018/1527

Here's a link to a video on what radiation poisoning can do...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/08/30/btsc.chance.nukes/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Inside the nuclear underworld: Deformity and fear

   * Thousands in Kazakhstan remain scarred from decades of nuclear tests
   * The Soviet Union did not evacuate villages when testing began
   * Deformed woman: "If only there had been no bombs, I could have been equal"
   * The problem of deformities is so big that there's a museum of mutations
   

Nice storey Sassy , the problem is every ship ,every air crew, is constantly training , "bagging traps ", doing FCLP's ( Fleet Carrier  Landing Practice) . Contingance planning is what Naval / Marine aviator do CONSTANTLY,  NEVER ENDING , Once one senero is played out ANOTHER begins .

That little new piece was written by someone who read a little about Navy / Carrier life , a few acronyms , some used in the wrong order some almost right.

    For instance ,

#1:  She had served on a smaller Marine carrier,

Marines have NO carriers , they are all USN , the Marines are part of the Dept. Of the Navy .


#2:  found out through a friend knew there was an opening for a junior grade LSO in a training position on a supercarrier


  A friend where at BUPER's ? LSO's are fleet ready pilot's attached to squardons that are attched to CAG 's (Carrier Air Groups) that are attached to Carrier's.

 LSO are  FCR (current to trap aboard  a carrier at sea) This requires so many , I don't recall the #, of GRADED   day and night FCLP's , within a perscribed # of days , followed by "X" # of  GRADED Cats and Traps , again day and night onboard a carrier at sea , generally done right off either coast as the carrier trains up / works up toward  a cruise.


 #3: Since she had experience landing F-18Cs and Cobra Gunships, and an unblemished combat record, she was ratcheted into the job


 So she's both fixed wing and helo qualied ???????? And  has flown in combat ,SO WHAT she would still have to re qual with a new "Type " Aircraft , re carrier qual , re qual to be a LSO. NO WAY this all happens IMO.
 

 [highlight]Anyway her storey lacks creditabilty to say the least.[/highlight]

Again , all ship's at sea are planning to attack all the countries that they can reach under different senerios , constantly , thats what they do when they arn't flying , planning to fly and attack , thats the basic job.
 

Keep tryin  that seems to be "Your mission" just as contigency planning is part of "the mission " of naval avaitors ;D

Have a great weekend  8-)

   

 
 

thanks, PEG, for the clarifications  :)  I figured, you being a Navy guy, you'd either see the story as bogus or true... helps to weed out propaganda from the other side...

what do you say about the other articles?

I didn't read them , you posted them while I was de bunking the first one you had sort of double posted , then edited  ::) Your all most as hard to pin the tail on a GWB  ;D Not that I'm calling either of you arse"s , but I'm sure Glenn could "read " that in given enought time  ;D

 :o :o :-?  Just say I'm open for correction - my goal is to dig down & find the truth - not blindly believe one side vs the other side  :)

we still have this article by the Times Online... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2369001.ece Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for Iran

Whatever truth is, this really all boils down making the US elite more rich and powerful at the expense of every serviceman who lays his life on the line to do what he is told is his patriotic duty.   I have no question about the sincerity of the servicemen but I question the motives of the leaders.

When they get back here many  face abandonment by the government and financial, medical as well as family disaster.

This has nothing to do with protecting our shores.  Just empire building for the benefit of the wealthy and the power mongers.

I know you are loyal to and love our country and have laid your life on the line for it, PEG.  No question about your values.

If only the current administration had the same qualities.

But then again -- I imagine you're too busy to take over and straighten things out. :)

Ah yes if we could only go back to pre WW-1 The Woodrow Wilsow years . But no internet etc . The worlds a ever changing place a fluid dynamic, could we have forseen 9/11 , maybe , it's very tough world , all sorts of crap flyin at a guy , from every side  :o Being Pres. for a day might be fun , for 4 years , no friggin way , for 8 even worst ::) :'(

 Maybe some where in all the manusa there's a lil truth , who knows what it is ? Not this simple country carpenter :-[  

I'm out,  see ya up top where I  [highlight]know I can help[/highlight]  8-)

QuoteNot this simple country carpenter

The founder of Christianity was a carpenter if I recall correctly.

See you on the other side. :)

QuoteThe founder of Christianity was a carpenter if I recall correctly.

...but even He won't have anything to do with the US government. :)

Nor any other Govt. for that matter ;) You will find some folks who will argue that he wasn't a carpenter BTW . But some folks just like to argue  :'(

That's the way I see it too, PEG.

He cannot bless one group in one country when the other country has people in the same group or religion that will be killed if the first one is successful.  If they both pray to the same God and there is only one then I am sure he could not answer either.  

So it looks like the wars are being directed by the opposition. :(

Well His father on earth was the carpenter...Supposedly...Never read anything saying Jesus made a living building houses like Joseph. I am sure growing up he learned a few things helping out around the house...

But if the scripture is true...Jesus walked all over the middle east..Started when he was very young....No way you have time to walk all over the known world at that time and hold down a regular job as a carpenter...And do the God thing the miracles healings etc...

Peter he was / is God , so,  ah ,  :-/ time is on this side .

 As to his occupation, I'll point out Mark 6: 2&3 "Where did this man get these things ?" they asked ."What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! [highlight]Isn't this the carpenter? [/highlight]Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James , Joseph, Judas and Siimon?"

 These folks where his neighbors / towns people , [highlight]"IF"[/highlight]   :-/ you hold that scripture is true and accurate , one would say,  they( his neighbors)  would have known. YMMV based on that "IF".    

Why do I let myself be lured back in  :'(   Good troll Pete , ya got one  ;D


BTW one of my favorite seens (sp)  :-/ in the Passion Of the Christ Movie was the table , or making of the table that Mel Gibson made up , where Jesus is showing his Mom his "new invention " , the table. It was IMO a cute set up by Mel and the writters , to bring some humor into pretty sad , [highlight]((((or in a way happy time as without his death on the cross we'd have little or really no hope ))) [/highlight]part of mankinds path.


 A note on the highlighted line to say:  YMMV on that as well and that raises thread drift warning flags as it's no where close to where we/ Sassy  started the thread. But it is  a interesting topic to me whether it  shoild be consided  a sad  time / event or in fact , the beginning of,  the happiest of times , Christ death that is.

 Jeesh thats more convolted than when I started  to clear myself up :(  ::)

IMO if they attack Iran it wont be because they fear terroists or because Iran is meddleing int he affairs of the toher mid east countries, it wont be to increase the chances of a north american union. It iwll be to create a smopkescreen good enough to get the public off the backs of all those republicans screwing up!!!  That is just my simple country girl thinking though ;)

Well

Peg

I always kind of looked to the sign that says...My Lord is the SON of a carpenter

Seriously though...when did Jesus have time to be a carpenter if he was travelling the world saving lives healing the sick...teaching the gospel...Organizing the disciples into the church....Going with John the baptist.

And for a long time in his life...Fleeing from the Romans

I know this is a larger than life story....But unless there were 50 hours a day it is not even mathematically possible

QuoteWell His father on earth was the carpenter...Supposedly...Never read anything saying Jesus made a living building houses like Joseph. I am sure growing up he learned a few things helping out around the house...

But if the scripture is true...Jesus walked all over the middle east..Started when he was very young....No way you have time to walk all over the known world at that time and hold down a regular job as a carpenter...And do the God thing the miracles healings etc...

Gospel of Mary...most of the first part talks about Jesus the carpenter. Just because it's not in the canon of Constantine don't mean it don't count. ;)

We'll go to Iran because it has ALWAYS been the plan. All the government and media hoopla about their nuclear abilities has set the stage. So what if Iran has nuclear weapons ( they DON'T) .... Isreal has plenty. Iran wishes the end of Isreal .... Isreal also wishes the end of Iran. It's nothing new that an extremist Muslim hates extremist Jews....OR.... that extremist Jews hate extremist Muslims. That news story broke a few thousand years ago....What bothers me is that a few "extremist" Americans are dragging us into this never ending  war. Ishmael vs. Isaac .....

The usurper of the 2000 election has no plan to just fade away and the lack of anything from the Democrats in Congress has given him proof that no one cares what he does with the countryas long as the RIGHT pockets keep being filled.

Then again ..... Maybe enough people will wake up and support the Constitution over the Commander in Chief. Maybe America will once again be the place where rule of law outweighs dollars and greed. Maybe those who wish the decline of OUR sovereign nation will once again be treated as traitors, no matter what their public office ....... It COULD happen!

Quote

#1:I always kind of looked to the sign that says...My Lord is the SON of a carpenter

#2: Seriously though...when did Jesus have time to be a carpenter if he was travelling the world saving lives healing the sick...teaching the gospel...Organizing the disciples into the church....Going with John the baptist.

#3: And for a long time in his life...Fleeing from the Romans

#4: I know this is a larger than life story....But unless there were 50 hours a day it is not even mathematically possible

 

#1: In those day "most" men did follow in the footsteps of there father's in occupation / trade / job. Pretty common really.

#2: His ministry , his gathering  of the 12 disciples , daily teaching in the synagogues , travels and healings all took place i what is commpnly excepted as a 3 or at most 4 year period.  Yes on early trips he did Wow the high priest  and elders with his knowledge of the books of the law / scriptures , but mainly those 3 to 4 years where his  earthy minisrty.

#3: Humm that one I do not recall , he did vanish at times , when the crowd ( Jewish towns folk)  crunched in , when he needed his space  ;D he could find plenty , desert time , just before that little stroll on the water the 12 didn't know  where he was , (they where pretty clueless really , but then they where thinking in a common realm, not that he REALLY WAS GOD, you know like we think, DAH!) , but I do not recall any Romans chasing him , in fact he rode into the city of Jerusalem durning the Jewish high feast on a donkey , the Romans where there yes , but the feast was aJewish thing , they(the Romans ) wished it was not happening.

Maybe your confusin Jesus with his parents running from the Romans in Jesus per birth times?? :-/Maybe your making it up , or think you know something . In fact a easy analogy would be to go back in this thread and read what I wrote about that article Sassy posted about the "LSO"  a few sort of right words , 1/2 truths , etc etc make a fine storey but...................

#4: Again God's / Jesus's time table is not like ours , you can read about that in the bible as well , you may need tune up on that area  ::), check into 2 Peter , see if you can come up with that answer. Hey it's even YOUR book  ;D Peter.

 Humm  random chance  :-/  maybe eh  ;D        

Quote

Going with John the baptist.

I think ya better check into that one as well Peter. JB did baptise Christ, but they never did any or much traveling together. Old JB did get his head lopped off , in part due to women, by the Romans. Again you may need to do a lil refresher reading , your call Peter.

 You are one heck of a fisherman , I'll give ya that , cause ya got another one on , TROLLING , ::)  :'(  gosh I gotta be more picky about the bait I take  ;D  

Jesus was  not God... I hate it when people say that...He  by definition is the Lord Christ...But he is the SON OF GOD.... Jesus is not and cannot be GOD

Peg you might want to check up on that eh? ;)

In your replies to the inaccuracies of time line you mentioned that he was god, making reference to that negating the normal equation of space and time... the time it takes to walk all over the known world etc...

But he was not GOD

It only mentions that he is the son of God like a billion times in the Bible

Peter , Peter, Peter , yes he referred to himself as the son of God , the son of the holy one , etc . And  yes the word "trinity" is not used in the bible , but if as John states "In the beginning was the word ..... He was with God in the beginning."  John was speaking of Jesus , Jesus himself said , " I am" and to a Jew that meant he was calling himself God , period , that is what got him put on the cross , that is why the high priest had it done. In the old testament Moses asked  " "What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"   God said to Moses,  'I am who I am."

Practicing Jews and Jews of that time do not use those words , "I am" , they don't even write it , they leave a space.

 Here's little bit more on Christ declaring his own Deity:

http://www.clemson.edu/spurgeon/books/apology/Chapter9.html

 Another :

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/deityofx.html

Christ's Self-Perception, Part 2

A number of comments that Jesus made about His relationship with the Father would be unusual if Jesus did not consider himself [highlight]equal in essence with God.[/highlight] In John 10:30 He says that to see Him is to see the Father. Later in John 14:7-9 He adds that to know Him is to know the Father. Jesus also claimed to have existed prior to His incarnation on earth. In John 8:58 He says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." Some believe that the words used here by Jesus constitute His strongest claim to deity. According to the Expositors Bible Commentary this passage might more literally be translated, "Before Abraham came into being, I continuously existed." [highlight]The Jews recognized the phrase "I am" as one referring to God[/highlight] because God used it (1) to describe himself when He commissioned Moses to demand the release of His people from Pharaoh (Exodus 3:14), and (2) to identifyhimself in the theistic proclamations in the second half of Isaiah. Jesus also declares that His work is coterminous with the Father. He proclaims that "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him" (John 14:23). The Jews hearing Jesus understood the nature of these claims. After His comment about pre-existing Abraham, they immediately picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy because they understood that He had declared himself God.


Another:  http://newsbreaker.wordpress.com/2007/08/24/is-jesus-christ-god/

The Testimony Of Jesus Christ - Jesus referred to Himself as the "I AM" which was the name that God Himself used when He spoke to Moses out of the burning bush (John 8:56-59, Exodus 3:13-14). The Jews sought to stone Jesus because they thought that He was guilty of blasphemy (John 8:59, Leviticus 24:16). Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last (Revelation 1:11,17-18,2:8) which is a name that God claims for Himself (Isaiah 44:6). Jesus also claimed to be the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8,11) and the Almighty (Revelation 1:8).


Another : http://www.craom.net/DeityofChrist.htm

The subject of the deity of Jesus Christ is not just an academic issue. If Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, equal with the Father, then Christianity's special significance crumbles. The deity of Jesus Christ is vital to all that He did. If He is not the unique Son of God, equal with the Father, then His work at Calvary loses its redemptive significance. "To deny the deity of Jesus demotes the Son of God to the level of ordinary men. He was truly a great Teacher, He performed great miracles, He lived a great life; but He was more than a teacher or miracle-worker; He was God in flesh."


But eh Peter it's all good I haven't been in my bible this much in months  :( call it a dry time , back sliding , what ever you please they all fit. :( So thanks for gettin me off my butt :)and in my bible eh!

Anyway believe what you want my job here is finished.

Have a great rest of labor day holiday eh  buddy :)  

Williet, I think you have it covered.  Eyes wide open -- good show. :)

PEG and Peter -- that was pretty invigorating.  My wife will not allow me to express my views here just because I normally take whatever is the opposite side just to keep her in shape.   :)

It's his passive-aggressive personality  ::)

Peg

I think you forgot something.... Jews do not believe in Christ

BTW

Peg you know that the bible is not factual or truthful... It's conception is allegorical...I pick it up and look at it from time to time to examine it and it is easily one of the greatest deceptions of all time.

God can be real and there might well be a heaven...But the bible is not accurate. So before you get too worked up about what is and is not in that book...Remember that it is a complete work of fiction

...and all of the sudden, Peter evolved into something else. :-?

QuotePeg

I think you forgot something.... Jews do not believe in Christ

 Oh but they do Peter , they are just still waiting for him to come.

Christ is a greek word meaning" the anointed one" , the same word in  Hebrew  is  Messiah =the anointed one.  [highlight]They just do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, The Christ , The anointed one , Immanuel ( God with us ).[/highlight] The Jews are still waiting for a warrior king much as they where in Roman times , looking for that warrior king to rid them from thier opression/ oppresors.

And way back in post # 22 I gave you the option of[highlight] "IF" [/highlight] you hold scripture as true , you didn't use that option , so I carried on .

See ya Peter , just NOT on the other side  :(  

QuotePeg

I think you forgot something.... Jews do not believe in Christ

Ahhhhh, BUT..they DO believe in the son on Joseph, Emmanuel. That was the given name of the person refered to as Jesus. They believe he was a prophet ( misguided according to them, but a real prophet).

JESUS is an Anglicization of the Greek [ch906][ch951][ch963][ch959][ch965][ch962] (I[ch275]sous), itself a Hellenization of the Hebrew [ch1497][ch1492][ch1493][ch1513][ch1506] (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic [ch1497][ch1513][ch1493][ch1506] (Yeshua), meaning "YHWH is salvation"; and where "Christ" is a title derived from the Greek christós, meaning the "Anointed One," which corresponds to the Hebrew-derived "Messiah."

Thus, the members of the Jewish religion do not believe in Jesus Christ. Actually, Jesus THE Christ .... both TITLES and NOT names. Salvation Anointed One....Salvation (thru the) Anointed One.....THE CHRIST...THE MESSIAH.

BUT.....MOST Jews do believe in the son of Joseph, the carpenter,Emmanuel.

AND, Had King Jimmy done a better job, we today would be using the term....Emmanuel THE Jesus-Christ .... Emmanuel, Salvation thru the Messiah. HIS name and title....HIS given name and HIS purpose.

JESUS CHRIST .... This is the GOSPEL...so many people talk about. Gospel, means Glad tidings or Good News .....that being the Messiah had indeed arrived. The Messiah was that sacrafice promised by God to allow ALL people, Jew or Gentile a shot at salvation.

IF the Messiah has indeed appeard and the promise has been fulfilled, the Jewish religion is null and void and that religion that believes salvation can be attained by everyone, reguardless of birthright has replaced it. Christianity.....the religion that believes in a risen savior, the Messiah. Jesus Christ...Salvation thru the Messiah. Emmanuel at birth.... NOT just a name Jesus Christ, BUT...."THE" Jesus Christ "AFTER" He rose from the dead. Emmanuel, son of Joseph.... THE Jesus Christ, Son of God...the Messiah had to be BOTH. MAN and GOD.

The Gospel (the Good News was ), Emmanuel, son of the carpenter Joseph, is indeed the "ONLYBEGOTTEN" Son of God ( proof is His resurection from the dead).... the promised Messiah. Thru Him (Emmanuel, The Jesus Christ) ALL people everywhere have a chance for salvation.

Peter, you say you don't believe in the Bible, humor me for a few minutes & read 1st Corinthians, the 1st chapt.  especially starting with verse 17 thru 31.  

Remember when Jesus was standing in front of Pilate, before his crucifixion?  "'You are a king, then', said Pilate.  Jesus answered 'You are right in saying I am a king.  In fact, for this reason I was born, & for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.  Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'  'What is truth?' Pilate asked."

"Jesus said '[highlight]I am[/highlight].  And you will see the Son of Man, sitting at the right hand of the Power, & coming with the clouds of heaven.'  Then the high priest tore his clothes & said, "what further need do we have of witnesses?  You have heard the blasphemy!  What do you think?  And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death."  Mark 62-64

Jesus also said "I am the way, the truth & the life" Jn 14:6

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  1 Cor 2:14

So Peter... no one can argue another person into belief - "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power & divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what was made, so that men are without excuse."  Romans 1:20  

Belief is an act of the will, a choice, God gave us free will & will not force us - once a person decides to believe in the truth of the Bible, the Spirit of God enlightens him - until then, it is "foolishness".  

What's ANY of this got to do with Iraq and Iran and our ?

A religious war between the Muslims and the Jews will never be won. We, a supposed "christian" nation have no place being involved in any way with this mess. IF we, a "christian" nation have any understanding at all of the religion we profess, we believe as a nation that BOTH Muslims and Jews are misguided in their beliefs.

I don't personally think a "Nation" can be CHRISTIAN, but IF we continue to spout off about being such....we should at the very least attempt to practice the tenants of that religion we claim.

IF we, as a Nation, would do so, we would NOT trying to place one WRONG religion over another WRONG religion. IF Christianity is the ONLY true religion, then ALL others are false.

On a Civil level, IF we believe in the FREEDOM of religion and the RIGHT of individuals to practice their faith as they choose....we as a Nation would allow BOTH Muslim and Jew to practice as they see fit.

EITHER way, we have no business in a RELIGIOUS WAR in the Middle East.

Right on, Willet!  I agree with you - as I said before, we can't force people to believe or to adopt a "democratic" gov't (ha) & especially since so many of the so-called "Christians" are on the band wagon for war...  where is Christ's example?  As far as I'm concerned, it brings shame to the name of Christ.  

(I'd already typed this before I read your last reply)

Emmanual also means "God with us"  

"In the beginning was the Word & the Word was with God, & the Word was God.  John 1:1

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given and the government will be upon His shoulder.  And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  Isaiah 9:6

QuotePeter, you say you don't believe in the Bible, humor me for a few minutes & read 1st Corinthians, the 1st chapt.  especially starting with verse 17 thru 31.  

Remember when Jesus was standing in front of Pilate, before his crucifixion?  "'You are a king, then', said Pilate.  Jesus answered 'You are right in saying I am a king.  In fact, for this reason I was born, & for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth.  Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'  'What is truth?' Pilate asked."

"Jesus said '[highlight]I am[/highlight].  And you will see the Son of Man, sitting at the right hand of the Power, & coming with the clouds of heaven.'  Then the high priest tore his clothes & said, "what further need do we have of witnesses?  You have heard the blasphemy!  What do you think?  And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death."  Mark 62-64

Jesus also said "I am the way, the truth & the life" Jn 14:6

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  1 Cor 2:14

So Peter... no one can argue another person into belief - "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power & divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what was made, so that men are without excuse."  Romans 1:20  

Belief is an act of the will, a choice, God gave us free will & will not force us - once a person decides to believe in the truth of the Bible, the Spirit of God enlightens him - until then, it is "foolishness".  

Good points all ... for me, the line drawn is the acceptance of the resurrection of Jesus. At THAT point, He becomes the Messiah and the avenue of my salvation.

There are many folks out there who would have everybody just get along and accept each and all into salvation, however, Christianity teaches us that without that act of believing the seemingly impossible act of a dead man coming back from death and living forever as a part of God .... there is no HOPE of life everlasting.

THIS belief, not a proven fact, but a belief based of pure FAITH is the line drawn in the sand.

Amen!  :)

Quote

What's ANY of this got to do with Iraq and Iran and our ?

Nuttin go look at post #17  Glenn started the drift , I mentioned we where badly drifting in post #22, but eh thread drift happens eh ;D

It was a nice drift I thought, I feel like a gardener today  ;) Or maybe a cracked pot/ water boy
;D Where is Apollos ?? ;D

QuoteBTW

Peg you know that the bible is not factual or truthful... It's conception is allegorical...I pick it up and look at it from time to time to examine it and it is easily one of the greatest deceptions of all time.

God can be real and there might well be a heaven...But the bible is not accurate. So before you get too worked up about what is and is not in that book...Remember that it is a complete work of fiction

There in is the difference. It is NOT a work of TOTAL fiction. Even atheist scholars believe there is some TRUTH in the collection of books assembled as the modern Bible.

I'm sure there are some here who believe each and every "jot and tiddle" in the pages of the King James....and some here believe NOTHING at all in the books.  

An HONEST study of the "creating" of the book known as the BIBLE will show there were many many books not chosen to be part of the collection. Those doing the "pickin" had their own reasons for adding or subtracting the writings of a given author. Many believe God Himself picked the books while others believe corrupt men did the selecting. Either way...what we have is what we've got! As time goes on, more and more texts are being found that talk about this Jesus. It's up to each of us to decide whether or not we will believe the writings of those books.

It's ALL a matter of belief and opinion, ( just as the belief in God or the resurrection of His Son come down to BLIND FAITH). NO REAL PROOF FOR EITHER. It is by FAITH we believe. Those who need or fabricate evidence miss the boat anyway.....

BUT..... It is a matter of FACT that the BIBLE, the King James (while not the first or the best version) does contain many provable facts. The books are a collection of the writings of believers and their writing is skewed by that belief. Those who believe in the Risen Messiah, believe in the Gospel. ALL the Book really does is tell a story about a promise and the fulfillment of that promise. It then gives a recording of events that can be used as "evidence" for those who believe... or fairytales for those who don't.

Like the sacred scriptures of ANY religion, if you don't believe through faith.....it means nothing. If you do have faith, it means everything.

There is not today nor ( as long as the world exists) will there be TOTAL proof of the scripture......It is taken by and through FAITH.....

http://bible.cc/hebrews/11-1.htm

Quote

Quote

What's ANY of this got to do with Iraq and Iran and our ?

Nuttin go look at post #17  Glenn started the drift , I mentioned we where badly drifting in post #22, but eh thread drift happens eh ;D

It was a nice drift I thought, I feel like a gardener today  ;) Or maybe a cracked pot/ water boy
;D Where is Apollos ?? ;D

Post #38...it has everything to do with why we, the United States, are at war in the Middle East. The conflict between Jew and Arab is a religious conflict. The United States is playing with the power structures in the Middle East in attempts to manipulate the various factions of the Muslim religion in favor of the Jewish religion. (More favorable Arab dealings with Isreal) THAT is all this mess is about. The Shiite, Sunni and Kurd factions of the Muslim religion all have different views in dealing with Isreal and we ( a supposed christian nation) are manipulating the factions to derive what's best for Isreal, because we (a supposed christian nation) don't understand the smple message of the Gospel.

They are ALL wrong! Shiite, Sunni, Kurd and Jew.....NONE of them are GOD's chosen people anymore....

ONLY those who believe in the Messiah....the RISEN SON OF GOD ...are God'speople NOW. POST CROSS....post resurrection.

These fanatic preachers who preach a Judeo-Christian hybred religion are liars and they are leading this country into a never ending conflict that has no meaning. Just endless death....

This is a religious war and the two sides are both WRONG religiously.

WE, the United States, have no place there. We were put there by a nut job who has no idea of what Christianity is. This lie that we, christians must do what's best for Isreal will destroy our nation, if we don't return to the BIBLE that so many powewr hungry ministers wave as they spew hate.

SCRIPTURALLY... this war is non-sense. It is a CIVIL war based on the differences in the teachings of the Muslim religion. OUR stake is to help the faction most amiable to Isreal win.  

We ( our CIVIL government ) is not now nor have we ever been in danger from Iraq or Iran.

There was money to be made by a corrupt administration and they used a misguided religious belief in this country to drag our nation into the mess..... The ONLY way out is to leave.

There is and will always be a war between those who follow the religions started by the sons of Abraham. It will end when the Savior (the SON of GOD) returns and that will be on God's time frame....not G W Bush and Dick Cheneys!


So Peg,
At least in my mind, religion, the Gospel and a better understanding of the Muslim, Jewish and Christian religions are the topic at hand. The point of this thread. We can't seperate civil and religious beliefs when talking about this war in Iraq or the future war in Iran.

Well


there are many disturbing things about the bible and Jesus...One being that man for thousands of years started to keep detailed records. Rainfall weather populations...who was wealthy, who was in power...Noted scholors, businessmen..etc.

In wars names of leaders squadrons and their numbers was kept....Fact is that if a person was born and they were the son of God...and they started a whole new religion that would sweep the countryside...Cause war unrest the death of Christ.... etc....

How come nothing of it was ever written by anyone.

Near as anyone can figure the first writing of christ were inked a couple hundred years after his supposed death....I say supposed death because there really is almost no evidence he ever actually existed.

Everything about Christ is a lie more or less...Like the depictions of a blue eyed man with a blondish beard....absolutely false.. if he lived christ was not white

But the white elite in europe made christ white in pictures.... I guess today considering that what 4% of the world are christians....that in an area where no white caucasians lived...that Christ was naturally of course one of us and not one of the lesser people of color (not my beliefs, just those of the church)

Another point...We should not accept the church or their version of truth (bible) They told us for 2000 years we needed to listen to them or we were going to burn in hell....But anyone that decided not to listen they burnt on earth...the middle ages or dark ages were a time when humanity was tortured by the church in christ's name...It was all the wealthy elite controlling the rest of us

How easily we forget

the bible is a lie.... If god loved us...Why then are only 4% of the world christians...What does god want to do.. burn the other 96%?..Some poor child born in africa or south america that never learns to read write and dies  before adulthood of disease...who did not get baptized or accept christ as their saviour...What is god going to do...Hunt them down in the afterlife to burn them, banish them to hell for an eternity of suffering...

this benevolant god that loves us and gave us his son because he wanted all of us to go to heaven

Get real people ::)

Peter, you keep going back to what "man has done in the name of religion" - religion has never been the answer.

QuoteWell


there are many disturbing things about the bible and Jesus...One being that man for thousands of years started to keep detailed records. Rainfall weather populations...who was wealthy, who was in power...Noted scholors, businessmen..etc.

In wars names of leaders squadrons and their numbers was kept....Fact is that if a person was born and they were the son of God...and they started a whole new religion that would sweep the countryside...Cause war unrest the death of Christ.... etc....

How come nothing of it was ever written by anyone.

Near as anyone can figure the first writing of christ were inked a couple hundred years after his supposed death....I say supposed death because there really is almost no evidence he ever actually existed.

Everything about Christ is a lie more or less...Like the depictions of a blue eyed man with a blondish beard....absolutely false.. if he lived christ was not white

But the white elite in europe made christ white in pictures.... I guess today considering that what 4% of the world are christians....that in an area where no white caucasians lived...that Christ was naturally of course one of us and not one of the lesser people of color (not my beliefs, just those of the church)

Another point...We should not accept the church or their version of truth (bible) They told us for 2000 years we needed to listen to them or we were going to burn in hell....But anyone that decided not to listen they burnt on earth...the middle ages or dark ages were a time when humanity was tortured by the church in christ's name...It was all the wealthy elite controlling the rest of us

How easily we forget

the bible is a lie.... If god loved us...Why then are only 4% of the world christians...What does god want to do.. burn the other 96%?..Some poor child born in africa or south america that never learns to read write and dies  before adulthood of disease...who did not get baptized or accept christ as their saviour...What is god going to do...Hunt them down in the afterlife to burn them, banish them to hell for an eternity of suffering...

this benevolant god that loves us and gave us his son because he wanted all of us to go to heaven

Get real people ::)

Pretty much what I said.Without the writings of people who believe in Jesus, there is no proof.

It's all about BLIND faith....you believe or you don't. I do believe and I think I can bring into question any so called facts about the man Emmanuel or His being Jesus, the Son of God. Even those who knew Him questioned His resurrection until they saw Him and onlya very few actually saw Him.....It is not a matter of evidence that will hold up in court....it's all about FAITH.

For me, no matter what is offered as proof He didn't exist, I will believe...SO....there is no point in defending each and every questionable point people come up with. Joseph had a son. Emmanuel was His name. He was offered as the all encompasing sacrafice to purchase salvation to all who believe on Him as the Christ.

The Gospel IS there in a book that's full of errors and misinterpretations. The flaws in the book compiled by many men over many years will give dispute to the story forever...I think that's part of the design, because it's by faith and faith only that we are saved.

Men will argue the "facts" of the Bible from now own ..... the Bibleis not what saves you.....belief in the simple Gospel is....The promise was fulfilled for all men everywhere....Emmanuel rose to become the Christ......That's as simple as it gets.....

God is LOVE (1 John 4:8)  So there you have it all this hoo haw about the bible is not necessary at all, Jeasus was famous not because he was born to a virgin mother, not be cause he was ressurected from the cross, or any number of other miraculas things, but because he was a MAN who walked the walk and talked the talk LOVE depsite all circumstances.  God favors those who do.  And I doubt very much whether it has to do wtih christianity or buddist, or any other religion.  Now if I can just get to that point I may be able to gain some favor with god myself.  It will take some work for sure.  

I know the way, but the devil is in the details.  

I am glad that you have found your faith or whatever it is...

It is still a big lie...And people are missing the point... My point was not merely that religion became the means by which the elite control the masses...Religion was invented by the elite to control the masses... the very concept of Christianity and Christ is a fabrication By them to guide you. The reason there was nobody writing down the chronicles of Jesus and the Disciples is that they never happened...the people of the time could not write down what they did not see! The story of it all was created much much later.


You see  when you believe they can control you... they incorporate words like in God we trust into the laws...So that people do not object to losing freedoms... In the court you swear to tell the truth so help you god what a total crock of poop

And these guys are smart too... They make sure to say things like God makes it hard to believe so only those of faith can believe or some garbage. And every piece of evidence that contradicts the bible was put in our minds and existence by the devil to test our faith...

Where is a barfing emoticon when you need one.... Total brainwash bullShi%

QuoteWhere is a barfing emoticon when you need one.... Total brainwash bullShi%

Peter, Glenn, I think it was, gave us one once, or maybe I'm imaging that.  :-/  I never saved it tho' Here's another one for you. I like it better.

(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/barf-green.gif)

:)  I got it from...

http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/firefox_install.jhtml

i am not sure i can figure out how to post the barfie Don...I will try and thanks as always with the info and help...

https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/barf-green.gif

see I knew I would get it wrong. ;D

Well, you got that right.  ;D

It won't work if you just copy the image location; as you found out.

Perhaps the best, simplest way to use it, or any other special non-countryplans.com emoticon is to...
1. copy the emoticon image to your own hard drive
2. upload it to your www.photobucket.com account (everyone should have one; it's free and about as easy to use as any image hosting service, and it works.
3. copy the IMG CODE tag from the photobucket account page and paste it into the message wherever wanted

An alternate method would be...
1. Place the cursor where you want the emoticon to appear in your new CP message/reply and click the THIRD button from the left in the top row of the "Add YaBBC tags:" buttons that appear above any message writing window. A "mouse hover"reads INSERT IMAGE
2. copy that image location like you did
   the url  
https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/barf-green.gif
3. go back to the CP message you're writing and
4. paste that url into your CP message. That way you can leach the emoticon image from my photobucket account

(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/barf-green.gif)

QuoteI am glad that you have found your faith or whatever it is...

It is still a big lie...And people are missing the point... My point was not merely that religion became the means by which the elite control the masses...Religion was invented by the elite to control the masses... the very concept of Christianity and Christ is a fabrication By them to guide you. The reason there was nobody writing down the chronicles of Jesus and the Disciples is that they never happened...the people of the time could not write down what they did not see! The story of it all was created much much later.


You see  when you believe they can control you... they incorporate words like in God we trust into the laws...So that people do not object to losing freedoms... In the court you swear to tell the truth so help you god what a total crock of poop

And these guys are smart too... They make sure to say things like God makes it hard to believe so only those of faith can believe or some garbage. And every piece of evidence that contradicts the bible was put in our minds and existence by the devil to test our faith...

Where is a barfing emoticon when you need one.... Total brainwash bullShi%

One point that should be talked about is this....the lack of a record of Jesus don't mean it's not there...it just means we don't have it yet. Could be there and just hasn't been found.

You really think that writings of Jesus are out there waiting to be found? are you also a believer that there are dinosaurs in the wilderness still alive waitng to be discovered?

Face it, the reason nobody ever wrote down that they saw christ, knew christ, heard of christ in that era.... was because nobody did...It was a allegorical complete work of fiction. ..Written several hundred years later

And actually Christianity is a complete rip off of egyptian religions.. only thing is that it comes 1000 years later or whatever...Jesus is a copycat for Horus...Christianity was not even original or special... Just seems that it has gained considerable influence in the western world of late.

Peter, have you actually read any of the 1000's of books on the historical Jesus?  Or do you believe what TV & the recent rash of shows, books etc that have recently been published?  Remember, during Jesus time, the Jewish scribes were the ones who documented what was happening.  They did not want to acknowledge Jesus.

I challenge you to really do the research... both sides.  That's what I've done.  In fact, I had the same question as Pilate "what is truth?"  That led me on the search at the age of 18 - I took philosophy classes, anthropology, comparative religion, psychology & geology.  I couldn't believe just because I was told to believe.  It truly is a miraculous mind & heart change that can't be explained until you have experienced it.

Just like I try to research all sides of politics & history (although I know I'm only scratching the surface) - I would think that anyone who really wants to rule out one thing or another would study both sides in-depth.

When Glenn started questioning the official story of 9/11 - I set out to prove him wrong  ;)  Well, I've become as much or more of a radical as he is  :o ;D

Have you read The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel?  He also wrote The Case for a Saviour - there are many, many more - have you read the history of Josephus?  Below is a link to Christian Research - Hank Hannegraf usually does a good job of explaining & supporting the historical Jesus.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power & divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what was made, so that men are without excuse."  Romans 1:20  

Why do you think that throughout history, man has believed in similar stories?  You can go anywhere in the world & you will be told a story about a huge flood; every religion attempts to come to terms with life & death - the ancient Egyptians & many others have believed in the "sun" god, death & resurrection... I wonder why?  As you can see in current media reports on Iraq, Iran, 9/11 etc.  Information can be swayed any way you want... so also religion.  

God reveals Himself to all people - if a person is truly searching for "truth" he will find it... so the argument about people in remote areas who have never heard of Jesus - again,if a person wants to know the truth, he will find it.  

http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2635115/k.AED8/DB011.htm

QuoteYou really think that writings of Jesus are out there waiting to be found? are you also a believer that there are dinosaurs in the wilderness still alive waitng to be discovered?

Face it, the reason nobody ever wrote down that they saw christ, knew christ, heard of christ in that era.... was because nobody did...It was a allegorical complete work of fiction. ..Written several hundred years later

And actually Christianity is a complete rip off of egyptian religions.. only thing is that it comes 1000 years later or whatever...Jesus is a copycat for Horus...Christianity was not even original or special... Just seems that it has gained considerable influence in the western world of late.

well.....until the early 1950's the Great Mountain Apes were a myth, the Ivory Billed Woodpecker was just rediscovered, there are people "down under" who claim to see the tracks of the Tazmanian Tiger, several so-called prehistoric fish have beed found to be still alive.....and scrolls are still being discovered in the deserts of the middle east..... At the time much of the western view of Christianity was being formed  (circa. 1740's to 1870's) most religious authorities believed the books of the bible were written in the language of the Holy Spirit. A special spiritual language....now known as Koine Greek, the language of the common Greek, not the high Greek of literature. Then there's the Rosetta Stone....key to Egypt and it's knowledge.

As hard as it is to accept...our society is NOT the know all end all for everything. We now see with the recent discoverys from China that much, if not most, of our view of science, medicine and mechanics was not born fresh in Europe. The Chinese had it before Europeans left their caves.

I know you give this no credit, but Solomon, son of David, for whom there IS proof.....said "there is nothing new under the sun......

YES, I believe there are still many scriptures about the life of Emmanuel that have yet to surface. AND....if they don't....it will not change my belief in Him at all. The books called the Bible will change as new texts are found. Some scriptures will be allowed and others lost or destroyed. Whatever...the Christian religion will adjust...just as it has for the last 2000 years......

God made the plan of salvation so simple that it confounds the wise.....there is no proof....just faith. His Son came and died and arose. He fulfilled the promise to Abraham. He was sacraficed a perfect sacrafice for ALL sin and He arose to be the Christ. The Gospel....

Why is that so much harder to believe than the myth of 9/11 being a terrorist attack?

9/11 was not a terrorist attack... it was a planned attack in co-ordination with the neo cons at the top of the US government.

We need to look no further than Rummy, Cheney and Bush for the people behind 9/11

Some people sadly think that there is a valid reason to be over in the middle east slaughtering innocent people.... There is not, unless you consider oil worth murdering hundreds of thousands of people for.

194 countries or so and a "fiction book" written hundreds of years ago depicts Iraq and Israel in the end times....what are the chances of that?? ;)

benevolance,
I must put my two cents in on this one that you wrote about murdering thousands of people. The United States Military is not murdering or killing anyone, we are the ones being killed maimed and seperated from our families so that you have the freedom to make comments like that. The Iraq's are no longer trying to kill people, they in fact want peace, Iran, Syria and surronding countries are paying people to go to Iraq and Afganistan to blow themselves up to kill as many people as possible. Did anyone know what it only costs the Taliban $25,000 payed to the families of the victims that they talk into killing themselves? Also the victims mostly male are told that they will have all the women, food, etc.., they want when they go to heaven once they kill themselves. There have been a few bad apples with in the US military that have taken it upon themselves to make "them" pay for the crimes that they have commited against there friends. These people are being punished for their crimes. As a 14 year veteran of the Marines and Army I can not find anywhere that the US military is murdering thousands of people. We do NOT shot unless shot at. We do NOT attack unless attacked. The military have strict rule of engagement that if broken bring forth strict penalties. I am glad that I have and continue to serve in the US military. I am glad that everyone has the chance to speak their minds the way you just did. If it were not for the military then we would not have to freedom that we enjoy in this country today. Personally I think the media should stay out of all military operations and not report on anything until after the event occured, like World War II.

Quote9/11 was not a terrorist attack... it was a planned attack in co-ordination with the neo cons at the top of the US government.

We need to look no further than Rummy, Cheney and Bush for the people behind 9/11

Some people sadly think that there is a valid reason to be over in the middle east slaughtering innocent people.... There is not, unless you consider oil worth murdering hundreds of thousands of people for.

I agree totally, but where's the proof that will hold up? Lot's of circumstantial junk, but no PROOF as of yet....Do you REALLY believe there will ever be any? I do believe there is PROOF and I also believe it may be lost for many years to come. Hidden, lost, buried, locked away for whatever National Security reason they can come up with......It was there, but now it may be gone forever......I believe what you say about 9/11 by faith. I have no evidence. I was not there in person....but I believe this administration was involved. Were you involved in the plot? Were you there to see all the evidence? OR...do you believe it based on your study of available information ...hoping for more info as the years go on?

Quotebenevolance,
I must put my two cents in on this one that you wrote about murdering thousands of people. The United States Military is not murdering or killing anyone, we are the ones being killed maimed and seperated from our families so that you have the freedom to make comments like that. The Iraq's are no longer trying to kill people, they in fact want peace, Iran, Syria and surronding countries are paying people to go to Iraq and Afganistan to blow themselves up to kill as many people as possible. Did anyone know what it only costs the Taliban $25,000 payed to the families of the victims that they talk into killing themselves? Also the victims mostly male are told that they will have all the women, food, etc.., they want when they go to heaven once they kill themselves. There have been a few bad apples with in the US military that have taken it upon themselves to make "them" pay for the crimes that they have commited against there friends. These people are being punished for their crimes. As a 14 year veteran of the Marines and Army I can not find anywhere that the US military is murdering thousands of people. We do NOT shot unless shot at. We do NOT attack unless attacked. The military have strict rule of engagement that if broken bring forth strict penalties. I am glad that I have and continue to serve in the US military. I am glad that everyone has the chance to speak their minds the way you just did. If it were not for the military then we would not have to freedom that we enjoy in this country today. Personally I think the media should stay out of all military operations and not report on anything until after the event occured, like World War II.

Are you saying there are no Iriqi's being killed by the weapons of the United States? Do you really believe if the military had stayed at home a country the size of L.A. would have destroyed us? Can you really think we are defending our freedom or our way of life in Iraq? Are you so affraid of the possibility that Iran might get a nuclear weapon capable of reaching the United States that you'd have countless American's die over the next 10 or more years to stop them?

Thomas Jefferson was a strong opponant of a standing army. He believed our primary duty was to this country and the citizens of this country....We have strayed. The ONLY duty of a standing military is to DEFEND this country. That's not accomplished by invasion....I am sorry that our military is being wasted in the middle east. I'm sorry for those who die for a confused plan at best. BUT ..I will never stoop to defending this mess by saying America was in ANY danger. Those who die do so for whatever cause they believe.....but the facts tell us it's not defence or patriotism.

An American Patriot is willing to die for the ideals of America or defending the Constitution of the United States, not to sway power in a foreign civil war, to build a foreign government, or make a group of crooks wealthy.

This so called war has NOTHING to do with freedom in American or protecting the rights of Americans. I'm sad to see so many misguided people who still believe that junk, but the plan was to involve the National Guard so the unjust deaths would hit as many homes as possible in this country. For each person lost, there will be many who just can't face the truth of the Iraqi invasion. It will be that way from now own, unless the criminals who lied to get us there are brought to justice.

The Bush / Cheney plan to destroy the United States from within seems to be working. :'(

You quoted my email and I never said that Iraq's where not being killed by Americans. I said that we do not fire on anyone unless we are fired upon first. The hardest part about that is when they hide among civilians we can not just fire into the crowd to get one bad guy. We have to wait until they are in the open or somewhere that civilians will not be harmed in the cross fire. That is why so many Americans are killed. I will agree with you on your statement that we need to defend this country but I would like to ask you a question. Did you lose anyone from the twin tower collapse? If that was your spouse, daughter, son that died in those two towers would you not want revenge for their deaths? That is more about what this war is about revenge. We did not go to there country hijack four planes and then run them into populated areas. If they had the honor that is with ever American then they would have attacked military installation instead of soft targets. Why use a plane full of people as a weapon? Because it is supposed to bring fear. The Japanese at the start of World War II launched a surprise attack against the United States Navy at Pearl Harbor. The only difference in the 9/11 attack is that they attack civilian targets instead of military.

As far as Iran no I am not afraid, but I will say that if someone does decide to push forward with military action then the whole place needs to be leveled before any boots hit the ground. I do not like the idea of having people in my country that want to cause us harm because they do not have the freedom to do what they desire. So before any boots hit the ground I would like to see the place leveled.

I would like to thank you for your comments. It reminds me that we live in a free country where we can say and do as we please. In Iraq if someone said any of the things you said they would have been placed in a prison to die a slow death. This practice accounts for more countries than you can imagine.

As far as placing blame, blame the Taliban, they are the ones who struck first. We tried to make traveling inside the US as painless as possible. Now look at the line to catch a flight. Look at the secruity measure that have to be taken. Look at what our country has turned into a fortress. We are building fences along our borders. We are supposed to be land of the free yet we are making every effort to protect our country and our people. Why because other countries do not like us so they come to our country to harm us. If you do not support the war thats fine I really do not care, but do not ever think that we are doing nothing but killing people in Iraq just to be killing them. If we had wanted to do that we never would have allowed them to retain the weapons. Throughout history any nation that has fallen to another nation the first thing the concuring nation does is disarm everyone. That I believe is the biggest mistake that we have ever made.

Flametamer, first let me Thank You for your 14 years of dedicated service. I have friends who are career soldiers and airmen. They have all seen service in Iraq. While they have complained about the length of their tours among a few other things, they, like you, are proud to be members of the US Military.

Random comments:

I am a fan of Thomas Jefferson too. However Jefferson could have never foreseen the complexities we face in this time. It is no longer possible to bury our US heads in the sand.

I do not believe that 9/11 was a "put up" affair orchestrated by the US Government. It was orchestrated by Bin Laden and his cohorts. We were attacked. I do not believe the conspiracy theorists. For one, I don't believe that a plot of such magnitude could be hidden for this length of time without leaks. Second I do not believe Bush is an evil man any more than I believe the mythical 50 mpg (100, 200 mpg.... it varies with the telling) carburetor was suppressed by the oil companies. I truly believe the free market place is stronger than that. Even if such a thing was suppressed once, the idea would not stay buried. History is replete with ideas that have been pursued by many people at more or less the same time.

At the same time I do believe the Bush White House made some errors along the way. But not any deliberate attempt to kill thousands of Americans for some unproven purpose. I do not believe our armed forces are purposefully killing innocent civilians. I do believe a small violent minority is trying to force their will, their ideals, on the bulk of the Iraqi's. They use violence and scare tactics just like the terrorist perpetrators of 9/11.

Anyhow I couldn't leave Flametamer alone in the wilds, although I suspect he's quite used to being on the receiving end. Oh, one more thing I don't believe. I don't believe those who will be soon denigrating my beliefs will ever be convinced to change their views by anything I'll say.

I'm especially not going to touch the religious drift this thread has generated. Whew!

Hey, Flametamer, what are you hoping, planning to build; your reasons for peeking in here. I see you've been lurking for some time (4.76 months to be exact   :)  ). Love to hear from you on any more mundane subjects, like building, that interests you.   :o

MountainDon,
Thank you for your comments.

We are going to build a modified version of the Solar Saltbox. We are working on change the plans slightly but hope to break ground within the next couple weeks. We are going for the no mortgage payment option which will require that we build as we get the money saved.

While I don't always agree with some of your viewpoints, Mtn Don, I respect your right to them.   :)

Flametamer, I, too, want to express my appreciation for your dedication to our country & willingness to put your life on the line for our country.

My dad spent 30 yrs in the Air Force & there are a lot of times we don't agree - we've been debating politics & war since the Vietnam war.   :-/  But I have to respect his beliefs.  And I do appreciate the family life he was able to give to us as we were growing up.

As a nurse, I have taken care of veterans for over 17 yrs.  I've laughed with them, cried with them, did my best to care for them like they were my own family members.  It has been very rewarding, although frustrating at times (gov't  ;) )

It is very difficult for me, especially taking care of these young men who have been to Iraq & Afganistan 2-3x's & see their struggles, their wounds - young lives that have been changed forever.  

There are too many unanswered questions about 9/11 - that's why I & many others, believe there should be a new investigation.  Many of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.  I am for negotiation - our world is too small to keep blowing up other nations.  Our weapons are too lethal - but the international bankers & war industry continue to fund both sides & continue to reap the ungodly profits at the expense of young men & women who serve in the military.

Then you think of the 100,000's of Iraqis who have died.  The depleted uranium pollution that is in the air, water, ground, food... and our soldiers who come home having been poisoned with the DU.   :-/ We've been bombing the Iraqis since the 1st Gulf war... our CIA set up Saddam Hussien & Osama ben Laden as agents for the US.  We allowed the ben Laden family to fly out of the US during a total stand down of flights after 9/11 :-?

There is so much more... who was responsible?  who was behind it all?  We might never know... in talking with people I work with from all over the world - Iran, Phillipines, India, China, Japan, Europe, Russia, Pakistan - they say our country is still the most honest in gov't & the most free - but that is quickly changing.  My son was talking to some people who were visiting from Germany - they said they were amazed that there were so many police around...

More than anything, I want to give to my children & grandchildren the freedoms I've been able to experience.  And as a Patriot, I believe that it is my responsibility to keep informed & to warn others when our constitutional freedoms are being stolen from us by political leaders who have a different agenda & would turn our country into a fascist state, doing the bidding of those with the real money & power who consider themselves the "elite" & the rest of us "sheeple".  Call me a conspiracy nut, but I've read too much history to deny that there is a bigger agenda planned for our country.

As one of our founding fathers stated - the constitution was written for a moral people - without morals & standards from within a person, they must be controlled by outside force.  Maybe that is what we have come to.  

QuoteWhile I don't always agree with some of your viewpoints...

(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/shock2.gif)   You don't!  I'm shattered.

Nah! Not really; just joking around. That comes as no surprise. (https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/Emoticons/hmm.gif)

I should worry if that came to pass. Even my wife, Karen, and I have our differences of opinion.  :)

QuoteI respect your right to them.

One of the keys to getting along, co-existing.

I hope we're still friends, MtnDon!  ;)  You don't do to your wife what Glenn does to me, do you?  He'll play the devil's advocate just to get me going  >:(  ::) :D - but it does help with my debating skills!  8-)  

So why can't we treat other nations the same way?

QuoteYou quoted my email and I never said that Iraq's where not being killed by Americans. I said that we do not fire on anyone unless we are fired upon first.

I would like to ask you a question. Did you lose anyone from the twin tower collapse? If that was your spouse, daughter, son that died in those two towers would you not want revenge for their deaths? That is more about what this war is about revenge.  

I would like to thank you for your comments. It reminds me that we live in a free country where we can say and do as we please. In Iraq if someone said any of the things you said they would have been placed in a prison to die a slow death. This practice accounts for more countries than you can imagine.

Throughout history any nation that has fallen to another nation the first thing the concuring nation does is disarm everyone. That I believe is the biggest mistake that we have ever made.

We would not be fired upon if we were not in THEIR front yards.

There is no excuse for what this country is doing in Iraq.

My freedom to say such things comes from my ancestors who fought in the AMERICAN Revolution and the same freedoms have nothing to do with the Spanish-American war, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm or any other conflict that was designed to police ANOTHER country.... My forefather,  who was a member of the First Continental Congress would puke if he were to see where this country has followed corrupt leadership. Another forefather who was a personal guard to Washington would be disgusted at the actions of King George "W" BUSH. Anyone who will bother to read the writings of the Founding Fathers can see this path is NOT the path of the United States of America.....IT is dishonorable at best and criminal at worst.

NO, I had no one die on 9/11 .... what difference does it make? IF this country wished to go after those who SUPPOSEDLY attacked us, we would be in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as most blamed were from there. AND...if we really wanted to find those responsible, we'd look a little closer to Washington.....Our "invasion" of Iraq was supposed to be about gettin Saddam (and he's dead) NOT revenge for 9/11...SO..WHY ARE OUR TROOPS NOT RETURNING?

But all this is just my opinion...and as you say....in this country (at least until Dick Cheney can change it ) ... I have the freedom of thought and speech.

I am sure it makes it easier to live with the loss of family, either on 9/11 or in the Middle East if we were to believe those who die are doing so to defend America or being killed by countless EVIL people who are out to kill every infidel.....The facts just don't support that line of thinking.

Muslims want their land to be an Arab land....Jews want the whole of the Middle East to be the "Land of Canaan" and the United States wants all the OIL, POWER and CONTROL in the world.....It has nothing to do with freedom, defending America or protecting this country from anyone.

The real enemy is from within.....the reason the Bill of Rights gives citizens the right to keep and bear arms in the first place. When all other checks and balances fail...the citizens are to water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriotism.......

It don't happen in another country dying in the religious civil war of another government.

I am sorry for those who have died and will continue to die for the misguided goals of our current administration. There is no draft and it's there choice, but it has nothing to do with FREEDOM or the principles on which this country was founded.

QuoteI hope we're still friends, MtnDon!  ;)  You don't do to your wife what Glenn does to me, do you?  He'll play the devil's advocate just to get me going  >:(  ::) :D - but it does help with my debating skills!  8-)  So why can't we treat other nations the same way?

I still value your ideas and opinions, friend.  :)

I have to admit to playing devil's advocate when we're discussing things. But I get it back. All in all it helps us both adjust to other points of view.  :)

Other nations.... ??   :-/ :-?

Here's an interesting point of view regarding the Iraq/terrorist/Muslim thing. One thing traditional Muslims fear from the west, the US in particular (because of our size and influence in all things, not just politics, but movies, music, behavior, "pop" culture) is the erosion or destruction of their value system, their version of morality and family values. They abhor our pop movies, books, culture with the display of extramarital and premarital sex, the absence of family values, our exportation of our way of life, our preoccupation with "celebrities" and their,..  shall we say decadent lifestyle. Our tolerance of gay lifestyle threatens their values. Etc. Etc.

Not to say "they" are right.    But there are disturbing aspects to the decay of the American family and family values.

Food for thought.

...and I wish somebody would correct the spelling of immanent to imminent. Drives me nuts. I know, my anal retentive side is showing.

Quote
More than anything, I want to give to my children & grandchildren the freedoms I've been able to experience.  And as a Patriot, I believe that it is my responsibility to keep informed & to warn others when our constitutional freedoms are being stolen from us by political leaders who have a different agenda & would turn our country into a fascist state, doing the bidding of those with the real money & power who consider themselves the "elite" & the rest of us "sheeple".  Call me a conspiracy nut, but I've read too much history to deny that there is a bigger agenda planned for our country.

As one of our founding fathers stated - the constitution was written for a moral people - without morals & standards from within a person, they must be controlled by outside force.  Maybe that is what we have come to.  

While our national attention is being captured by the Middle East, our Constitutional Freedoms are indeed being taken from us....and that's the worst part of all.

Well you will never see the slaughter of civilians on Fox News  :o But watch a BBC news briefing on the war...read what unicef and amnesty international have to say about the war.... you know the organizations that have no vested interest in the oil or political gain from spinning a war for the positives.

fact is hundreds of thousands are being bombed maimed and killed over there...

Yet in the news here in America we only see the feeble attacks that kill or injure 1 or 2 soldiers....When a small assault force from the US army kills thousands almost instantly

this is a slaughter pure and simple... take everyone in the way out of the way and establish a system of rule that we can overlook and control for the next 50 years.....

Anyone that does not like the thought of that will be killed if they voice an objection :-/

Yes Democracy is grand

Fighting for freedom is a great and honourable thing... There is no honor or freedom to be had for america in Iraq

Had a look at some AI information.  AI states thousands of deaths, not hundreds of thousands... and...   "the result of deliberate attacks by Sunni and Shi'a armed groups as the conflict took on an increasingly sectarian nature."  not US armed forces.

Please point me in the direction of where the foreign press accurately reports "(your quote) ...a small assault force from the US army kills thousands almost instantly."  :-?

Don you are right..my figures for the death totals are too high...But not by much...Did some searching for civilian body counts and it is around 77,000 since america attacked and started occupying Iraq
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

OK. But those numbers are mainly Sunni killing Shi'a, or vice versa. If the US armed forces were to disappear overnight, what do you think would happen? I don't believe the killing would stop. But we could rest easy, complacent in the knowledge that it's not our doing????

And various estimates place the number of deaths caused/ordered by Saddam to range from 290,000 to closing in on two million.

If even only the low figure is accurate, they represent a crime surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II. Oh yeah and Joe Stalin did away with countless millions. Saddam was a piker when compared to histories evil men; but he was well on his way. I believe the world to be a better place without likes of him around.  But then there's those like Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who claim the holocaust never happened.....

I don't know if I can find thousands at once but large groups at once  should do.

Quote
Marines Ordered To Execute Civilians In Nazi-Like Slaughter

At one house Wuterich gave an order to shoot on sight as Marines waited for a response after knocking on the door, said Mendoza.

"He said 'Just wait till they open the door, then shoot,'" Mendoza said.
Mendoza then said he shot and killed an adult male who appeared in a doorway.

During a subsequent search of the house, Mendoza said he received an order from another Marine, Lance Corporal Stephen
Tatum, to shoot seven women and children he had found in a rear bedroom.

"When I opened the door there was just women and kids, two adults were lying down on the bed and there were three children on the bed ... two more were behind the bed," Mendoza said.
"I looked at them for a few seconds. Just enough to know they were not presenting a threat ... they looked scared. I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.

"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.

"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."

Mendoza said he returned to a position at the front of the house and heard a door open behind him followed by a loud noise. Returning later that afternoon to conduct body retrieval, Mendoza said he found a room full of corpses.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/140091

One of the strategies of the US is to get them to kill each other via accelerating their own civil wars.  We are directly responsible for that.  Our allies, the British even went so far as to dress up as Arabs and got caught in Basra.  You can bet for everyone caught there are tons who didn't get caught.

Because of that I think we need to count the deaths as scientifically reported by The Lancet plus the added tally of those killed since the study, bringing the count to over a million. 1,028,907

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html

This does not count the 91 Gulf War or the results of the sanctions.  We degraded -polluted -their water supplies then prevented them from getting chlorine to purify it.  We were good enough to send teams over there to report the results of the degradation of their water supplies and count the deaths of their children we caused by diarrhea and other intestinal diseases.  I read the reports a few years ago.

This does not count the cowardly strafing and massacre of the returning armies on the highway of death in 1991 as they were retreating while complying with UN orders.  

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm For the rest of the Highway of death story.


(//%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttp://home.earthlink.net/~lazydog2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/highwayofdeath.jpg%3Cbr%20/%3E)

Here for more...  http://home.earthlink.net/~lazydog2/images/id1.html

QuoteI want to give testimony on what are called the "highways of death." These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of [highlight]2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 in compliance with UN resolutions.
[/highlight]
[highlight]U.S. planes trapped the long convoys by disabling vehicles in the front, and at the rear, and then pounded the resulting traffic jams for hours. "It was like shooting fish in a barrel," said one U.S. pilot. The horror is still there to see.[/highlight]

The entire retreating army was destroyed -- both ends blocked and murdered in a hotbox from the air.  Yeah -- we are real compassionate heroes.  Lets not forget that our representative April Glaspie likely set Saddam up in 1991 - as usual stories have been tampered with to make us look better but general consensus  before the tampering was:

QuoteWhen these purported transcripts were made public, Glaspie was accused of having given tacit approval for the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which took place on August 2, 1990. It was argued that Glaspie's statements that "We have no opinion on your Arab — Arab conflicts" and that "the Kuwait issue is not associated with America" were interpreted by Saddam as giving free rein to handle his disputes with Kuwait as he saw fit. It was also argued that Saddam would not have invaded Kuwait had he been given an explicit warning that such an invasion would be met with force by the United States.[2][

Quote"It has never happened in history that a nation that has won a war has been held accountable for atrocities committed in preparing for and waging that war. We intend to make this one different. What took place was the use of technological material to destroy a defenseless country. From 125,000 to 300,000 people were killed... We recognize our role in history is to bring the transgressors to justice." Ramsey Clark

Ramsey Clark served as U.S. Attorney General in the administration of Lyndon Johnson. He is the convener of the Commission of Inquiry and a human rights lawyer of world-wide respect. This report was given in New York, May 11, 1991.

http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrime.htm

Our people know how to get the wars they want.

Hmmm....  I guess that was thousands at once. :-/

Can we also justify that?

always glad to know I can count on Glenn to help me out here.. ;)

Only when you are good, Peter. ;D

Glenn dunno how to take that man...

Do you mean Good (wink wink) like my wife means good? ::)

I'm NOT your wife, Peter. :-/

QuoteI'm NOT your wife, Peter. :-/

So you and Peter???? You LIBERAL you!!!!! :o


ha ha ha ha

Sorry, williet.  Messed up your picture of me. :-/  I would not drop the soap.

I'm not really liberal.  I'm not really conservative.  I'm actually anti-political, anti government, or at least anti-corrupt government.

Wars are the tools of the elite and greedy.  For the most part the common people only want to live in peace - no matter what country.  Leadership striving for power, money, greed, oil, control of other countries, population control and reduction are the cause of most death and destruction.  

Not peace loving peasant individuals like me. :)

I guess we would have to add religious intolerance to that list.

I am also pro-God but anti-organized religion (but not intolerant).  I guess I would still allow others to be led down the wrong path. :-/

I heard that the Highway of Death was prompted by a temper tantrum of Bush senior if I recall correctly- told the military to kill them all --- years ago.

More fairly current smaller massacres -

     
Marines may face trial over Iraq massacre

· Report likely to say troops shot 24 unarmed civilians
· Murder charges likely after killings and cover-up

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1784307,00.html

Wedding party massacre


Iraqis claim more than 40 killed in US helicopter attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1220750,00.html


New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges
     
The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

Reuters news agency Monday cited Iraq's security minister accusing "US and Iraqi forces of killing 37 unarmed civilians in the mosque after tying them up."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/iraq-m28.shtml

Fallujah Massacre

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

    Incinerating Iraqis; the napalm cover up

Quote"Human fireballs" and "melted corpses"; these are the real expressions of Operation Iraqi Freedom not the bland platitudes issuing from the presidential podium.

Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli, who was the head of the Iraqi Ministry of Health in Falluja, reported to Al Jazeera (and to the Washington Post, although it was never reported) that "research, prepared by his medical team, prove that the US forces used internationally prohibited substances, including mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in their attacks on the war-torn city."

Dr Shaykhli's claims have been corroborated by numerous eyewitness accounts as well as reports that "all forms of nature were wiped out in Falluja".as well as "hundreds, of stray dogs, cats, and birds that had perished as a result of those gasses." An unidentified chemical was used in the bombing raids that killed every living creature in certain areas of the city.

As journalist Dahr Jamail reported later in his article "What is the US trying to Hide?", "At least two kilometers of soil were removed..exactly as they did at Baghdad Airport after the heavy battles there during the invasion and the Americans used their special weapons."

Note:  I know Dahr personally - he would not lie.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9307.htm

Check out our use of phosphorus in the massacre at Falluja
http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/

QuoteThis week, the broadcast of a shattering new documentary (below) provided fresh confirmation of a gruesome war crime covered by this column nine months ago: the use of chemical weapons by American forces during the frenzied, Bush-ordered destruction of Fallujah in November 2004.

Using filmed and photographic evidence, eyewitness accounts, and the direct testimony of American soldiers who took part in the attacks, the documentary – "Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre" – catalogues the American use of white phosphorous shells and a new, "improved" form of napalm that turned human beings into "caramelized" fossils, with their skin dissolved and turned to leather on their bones.

The film was produced by RAI, the Italian state network run by a government that backed the war.

I remember now -- the city was shut down for weeks so we could hide the evidence.

Quote"By the end of operations, the city lay in ruins. Falluja's compensation commissioner has reported that 36,000 of the city's 50,000 homes were destroyed, along with 60 schools and 65 mosques and shrines. The US claims that 2,000 died, most of them fighters. Other sources disagree. When medical teams arrived in January they collected more than 700 bodies in only one third of the city. Iraqi NGOs and medical workers estimate between 4,000 and 6,000 dead, mostly civilians -- a proportionately higher death rate than in Coventry and London during the blitz."

Hmmm -- seems that one got into the thousands again. I'm sure they were all insurgents and not the men, women and children who said they were too poor to leave the city and had nowhere to go.  We must have used the advanced smart phosphorus that only sticks to insurgents. :-/  Give me a break.

At least we are compassionate killers.  We made sure they all burned completely to death so they wouldn't be in pain.

See also  http://www.ivaw.org/faq

QuoteThey plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.  

Tacitus

And here is how our military are treated...

Pentagon slow to spend on safety for US troops in Iraq

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9hwXfjnkuy_LQSdaUo34XEgqdvQ (report published in USA Today)

Glenn the best invention ever is soap on a rope!

No soap dropping in this house either...*LOL*

Not that there is anything wrong with that

(seinfeld reference)

So what do you think about this, PEG?

The Neoconservative Agenda to Sacrifice the Fifth Fleet – The New Pearl Harbor

By Michael E. Salla, M.A., Ph.D.
November 7, 2007

The Bush administration has covered up and ignored dissenting Pentagon war games analysis that suggests an attack on Iran's nuclear or military facilities will lead directly to the annihilation of the Navy's Fifth Fleet now stationed in the Persian Gulf. Lt. General Paul Van Riper led a hypothetical Persian Gulf state in the 2002 Millennium Challenge wargames that resulted in the destruction of the Fifth Fleet. His experience and conclusions regarding the vulnerability of the Fifth Fleet to an assymetrical military conflict and the implications for a war against Iran have been ignored. Neoconservatives within the Bush administration are currently aggressively promoting a range of military actions against Iran that will culminate in it attacking the US Navy's Fifth Fleet with sophisticated cruise anti-ship missiles. They are ignoring Van Riper's experiences in the Millennium Challenge and how it applies to the current nuclear conflict with Iran.  cont @ link

http://americasherojourney.com/Article-New-Pearl-Harbour.htm

They are sitting ducks out there and could have been had if this sub wanted them- at least a few of them..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

This subject has been coming up for a long time in other countries.  It looks like they are saying -- here I am -- hit me.

 What would you have our subs do to stop that Chinese sub from surfacing?

It's  cat and mouse game , our sub's (USA) IF they where there , which in my military mind they where,  could have / would have taken the Chinese sub out , BUT as they felt it was a ruse / game for the Chinese to think they duped the fleet they did what they are known for , Submarines the silent service!  They did nothing,,,, change the situation and a different result may have happened.

There's not much surface boats or P-3's and /or  S-3's  can do to stop a sub from going where they, the sub , wants to go . They can ping it but folks would freak IF the shot at one.

So big deal a sub Zanuck up on some surface guys , pretty normal , no big deal. IMO.

As far as this imminent war , not immanent   war this thread started in Sept. it's now mid Nov. so define imminent  ::) or for that matter immanent ;D

As far as Iran taking out the fleet with cruise missiles,  maybe , I think we should just surrender California to Iran and call it good .

How many do they have ? How good are they made / programed / armed? When was their last test fire ? What was the result of that test ? One mans opinion does not make it a sure thing.

Maybe that's the way it'll shake out , IMO we should let the  Israelis  take care of it   like they did Iraq's nuke plant , much to do about nothing , saber rattling.  That's about all it amounts to.  


Nice job  Sassy draggin me into this thread  :o

End of transmi...................  

Quote

As far as this imminent war , not immanent   war this thread started in Sept. it's now mid Nov. so define imminent  ::) or for that matter immanent ;D

The quote on which this "imminent war" thread is based goes back to at least mid - late 2005

At the bottom of the Fall 2007 article by The Insider they reference an October 18, 2005 article in The Guardian as their source. The writer of the Guardian article says he knows it's true because he got it from (one of) John Bolton's speech writers.

At one point I traced it back to spring of 2005.  It has been repackaged regularly since then to rally support for the  political candidate, lobbyist, ... book du jour.

At this point the credibility of those prognosticators is on par with the administrations.  Sorta like congress where every week there is rhetoric pointing out that Bush's approval rating is ~ 30%.  Too bad congress only has an approval rating of ~18%

I agree on the - what is imminent? part. [highlight](speel cheeker din't ketch it cause it is unuther word with an entirely difront meening).[/highlight] ::)

Israel would like Iran gone.  Our government would like to help them.  Our people don't want another war.  Bush and Cheney would love to do it.  The rest of the world is wondering if they may be next and are starting to team up.

Iran is not claiming to be able to get us here, but they are claiming to be able to launch 11,000 missles at our nearby interests in 1 minute.  I forget their total range.

As long as they all rattle and nobody pulls the sabre out. :)

Great exercise of self control PEG. ;D

Well, PEG, you being a Navy guy & all - since you saw right through that other article I posted, wanted your opinion on this one...  :)  Seems to me that they are building up the propaganda so that Joe citizen gets used to the idea for when a move is really made...  >:(  Isn't that the way our wannabe dictators like to play it?

Entangling Alliances

In the name of clamping down on "terrorist uprisings" in Pakistan, General Musharraf has declared a state of emergency and imposed martial law.  The true motivations behind this action however, are astonishingly transparent, as the reports come in that mainly lawyers and opposition party members are being arrested and harassed.  Supreme Court justices are held in house arrest after indicating some reluctance to certify the legitimacy of Musharraf's recent re-election.

Meanwhile, terrorist threats on US interests may be more likely to originate from Pakistan, a country to which we have sent $10 billion.

Now we are placed in the difficult position of either continuing to support a military dictator who has taken some blatantly un-Democratic courses of action, or withdrawing support and angering this nuclear-capable country.   The administration is carefully negotiating this tight-rope by "reviewing Pakistan's foreign aid package" and asking Musharraf to relinquish his military title and schedule elections.  

By the time he complies with the requests of the White House sufficiently to continue to receive his "allowance," courtesy of the American taxpayer, his mission will be accomplished.  A more friendly Supreme Court will be installed and enough of the opposition party will be jailed or detained to assure an outcome of the elections that will meet with his approval.  All the while, our administration lauds Musharraf as a trusted friend and ally.

So much for a War on Terror.  So much for making the world safe for democracy.

Free trade means no sanctions against Iran, or Cuba or anyone else for that matter.  Entangling alliances with no one means no foreign aid to Pakistan, or Egypt, or Israel, or anyone else for that matter.  If an American citizen determines a foreign country or cause is worthy of their money, let them send it, and encourage their neighbors to send money too, but our government has no authority to use hard-earned American taxpayer dollars to mire us in these nightmarishly complicated, no-win entangling alliances.

When we look at global situations today, the words of our founding fathers are becoming more relevant daily.  We need to understand that a simple, humble foreign policy makes us less vulnerable and less targeted on the world stage.  Pakistan should not be getting an "allowance" from us and we should not be propping up military dictators that oppress people.  We should mind our own business and stop the oppressive taxation of Americans that makes this meddling possible.   Ron Paul - Texas State Representative
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst111107.htm

QuoteI

#1:  Israel would like Iran gone.  


#2: Iran is not claiming to be able to get us here, but they are claiming to be able to launch 11,000 missles at our nearby interests in 1 minute.  I forget their total range.

#1: I think that is a mutual mind set.

#2: Claimin and doin are different things eh ;D Adimajohn (sp)  is full of $hit !  He's a nut case as well   :( , a bad combo for a guy with a nuke :o

I think most politicians are full of it, but what are they going to do?

Roll over and hand Israel, Bush and Cheney the keys to the country? :-?

To me it would be like me walking into your house - taking all of your guns and telling you that it is OK for me to attack you but you are not allowed to defend yourself, and I know your neighbor hates you but you are not allowed to defend yourself from him either because I like him -- (in this case even though your neighbor has nukes and is actively attacking its neighbors).

I don't see where Iran is out of line here and the rhetoric that makes people think they are is just being spewed by our war leaders and our government controlled main stream media because it is what Isreal wants.  Our leaders have sworn their support for Israel at the expense and lives  of the American lower and middle class.  Our leaders think this will move them on into heaven.  I have news for them -- if any of them get there, I want to be in the other place.  Zionism sucks.