12 x 12 Micro, then 16 X 24 Macro, Eufaula, Oklahoma- Chris & Julie

[DmnYnkee01]

Hello all.  I am new to this forum and have been enjoying the info from many posts over the last week or so.  I expect to lean on some the experts and folks that have been there, done that for our project.

We have puchased about 3/4 of an acre of wooded land about 1/2 mile from the water front at lake Eufaula, OK.  I have start doing some clearing, but have quite a bit left to do.  It has electric, but no water or septic.  Water will need to be a well at some point, but a neighboring lot has an abandoned well on it that I may be able to use temporarily.

We are transitioning from tent camping, straight to our own build, so it is a fairly big step.  Add to that, I have been recently diagnosed with MS, so it is possible that at some point in the build, I might not be able to finish, but I am not going to "what if" myself into deciding not to press forward.  We are not wealthy, so the builds will have to be done in stages.  Starting next spring, the current plan is to build a 12 x 12 micro cabin, with loft, that will eventually become a bedroom for the macro cabin.  The micro will have 10' walls and a 12/12 pitch roof and a shed dormer.  For the Macro, I am looking at 16 x24 with 10' walls and loft, or 20 x 30 with 8' walls and loft.

I have started building a model for what I am wanting to do for the micro, and would appreciate ideas, and comments.

I will try to put photos below, if I can figure out how to do it.

Thanks all.  Chris.

[hpinson]

I think this ought to be made a sticky topic. I'm convinced...

[Don_P]

Some gentle constructive critique;
The kneewalls should probably be replaced with balloon framing but either way the ridge should be designed as a beam supported by built up posts at each end. Those posts need to continue down to support below, those are unframed walls in the model at the moment. It would be typical to run the floor joists the other direction but with a structural ridge this is ok. I'd size the opening in the second floor for a code spiral stair 5'x5' finished opening IIRC, the door in that area would cause a problem.

I've taken to letting in 2x6 ledgers centered 3' off the floor around the bathroom walls for future grabrails while we are framing, we do the same for cabinets, you may want to think about where you might want more blocking buried for later. Slab on grade or a low crawl with sitework designed for accessability. It is very hard to catch up to a falling grade with a ramp. Carry the accessability thoughts throughout the house, maybe a curbless shower or euro bath, door widths, etc. Generally accessible and micro don't go together very well.

I've burned up 10 houses worth of model studs this week from scrap rippings, have often thought about selling model kits. Especially for first timers it is very educational to build it to scale first and work through some of the unforseen tough spots. I used our model to confirm overhangs, sun angles and apparently to give the cat a playhouse. When I was done one of the guys took it home for his kids to play with.

[DmnYnkee01]

Thanks for the comments.  I had already moved my thought process to balloon walls after I started building the model.  The opening for the loft is planned at 5 x 5 finished opening, however, where I am building, there is no code.  The reason for the ridge board and not a ridge beam is I was wanting about 7' of headroom in the center of the loft.  Can I still have built up supports on the gable ends for the ridge board?  You may not be able to see them in the pictures, but I was planning on 2x4 supports under the 2x8 ridge board as well to give a little more support.

Also, I did not notch the rafters in the model to sit on the header, but am planning on it in the build.

This will be built on piers as there is some grade on the lot, slight downward slope from the road.

Chris

[Don_P]

It needs to have a ridge beam for that roof configuration. For that building a double 2x10 or larger will do the job but you may want to bump that up to provide enough depth for the plumb cut of the rafters to bear against. I'm typically framing with 2x12 rafters to get insulation depth and venting. A single lvl would do it as well. For a double 2x ridge I typically use 4 studs to create the post. 2 under and 2 that run alongside to create a pocket the ridgebeam drops into. I haven't checked but the ridge is supporting about 2600 lbs, each end post is supporting half of that, should be good.

It looks like OK generally uses the 09 IRC;
http://www.iccsafe.org/gr/Documents/jurisdictionadoptions.pdf

[rich2Vermont]

Very cool model. I wish I had done that, though Google Sketchup is the next best thing, virtually anyway.

[DmnYnkee01]

Was initially planning on 2x6 rafters, but that would not allow for any venting.  If I go to 2x8 rafters, I should be able to have it vented and still use r-19 insulation, correct?   Should the rafters be 16" oc, or can I get away with 24" oc?

I am still wanting peak at 16', 8' ceilings in first floor, 7' headroom at center of loft.  Can I still use 2x6 floor joists for the loft?  Is there a maximum depth that the ridge beam and/or rafters can be notched, like the picture below?  If I can go with about a 4" notch, then I should be close to the 7' headroom, correct?

[DmnYnkee01]

I am needing some opinions.  My lot is aproximately 3/4 of an acre, about 1/2 mile north of the waterline at Lake Eufaula, in Oklahoma.  It is about 2 1/4 hours drive from our home.  The lot is 75' along the road, and 300' back towards the lake, with some downward sloping about 60' back.  I have started clearing some, but it will be slow going as I am doing it all myself, with a chainsaw and my truck.  I am planning on leaving most of the larger trees, but clearing out brush, small trees, and cleaning up the larger ones.

I am close to having it clear enough to start building the 12 x 12, and have decided to make the macro cabin a 16 x 24, much like Lemay's design, only butted up to the 12x12 which will then become a bedroom.

My dilemma is, do I start on the 12 x 12 so we have a place to stay while clearing the rest of the lot, or do I clear the rest first?  The reason I am struggling with this is there is a descent chance we will have a lake view of some sort once cleared.  Once the 12x12 is built, I will be pretty well locked in on the location of the 16x24.  It could take an entire spring/summer season to get the lot cleared to my liking, working on weekends.

View of property from the road.  The stump in front of the big tree was an 8"-10" diameter cedar.

[MountainDon]

I would thin to get a good handle on what view is where before any building starts. We used an RV as "home" fpr a couple of years while sorting through things like the view, getting to know where the rainfall and snow melts runs, the direction of prevailing winds etc.  While thinning ask yourself what you'd want in case some mature trees died. That is you probably want to have some immature young trees mixed in with the maure ones. Plus some saplings so the entire cycle of tree life is represented. And do get rid of the undergrowth that is unnatural. Most locations should have a state forester that can be of great help when it comes to deciding on a thinning plan.

I prefer the term "thinning" to clearing, unless the idea is to cut down and remove everything as you would in the areas the home is to be located.

[DmnYnkee01]

Thinning would be correct for what I am wanting to do.  The 12x12 will be our "RV" for a couple of years.  This is just going to be a summer weekend/vacation cabin, and not a permanent residence.  I haven't been out there for a couple of months, but am thinking about going out sometime in the next couple of weeks.  Hoping that most of the leaves will have fallen, and will be able to get a better idea how to proceed.  I don't want to wait too long before starting the build, as stated in my first post, time may become an issue.

Here is my sketch of the 12 x 12 foundation.  Planning on 2x8 joists, 16" OC, with blocking (not shown in sketch).  Looking at span charts, the 11 1/2' span should be a non issue, which allows me to eliminate a center row of piers which I had first thought I would need.  For sketch purposes, I used triple 2x8x12's for my beams, but I think that may be overkill.  I should be fine using single 4x6x12's, or maybe double 2x6x12's with osb sandwiched?  Alslo planning on 8" sonotube type forms for the piers, with 7" of cantilever from the center of beams.

[DmnYnkee01]

Thought about it some more, and I think I will stick with the triple 2x8's for the beams.  Since I am doing 1 1/2 story, 4x6 doesn't seem like it would be beefy enough for the potential load.

Here is my rough sketchup of the direction I am wanting to go with the total build.  The 5x5 loft opening in the 12x12 will either be walled up, or more preferable would be to floor it in.

[astidham]

for the small difference in cost, I would use a larger floor joist.
a bouncy floor is very annoying, and you will not regret going stronger.
I am very excited to watch your build, I have a countryplan in skiatook ok

[MountainDon]

Floor joists: 2x8's of most #2 commonly used species make the 12 foot span, but some just barely. Check this link   Span charts and the calculator  provide minimums. Or another way to look at it,  the worst possible thing a code inspector would approve.

[MountainDon]

Triple 2x8 for side beams work for that loading and spacing of supports.

How about the piers themselves and the connections to the beams? Bracing pier to beam and pier to joist (90 degrees to each other in other words)

You do know that a code inspector would ask for the engineering on a pier and beam if he was really doing a proper job??

[DmnYnkee01]

I looked here http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/floor-joists-span-d_1479.html for the span I was figuring, and it shows 14' 1" for 30 lbs psf, and since the span, between the beams is about 10'6", I thought I was in good shape.  Using your link, 2x8 #2 southern pine, which is what is carried by the box stores out my way, shows 14'2" with a 40 lsb psf load.

There is no code where I am building, and the only inspections that will be done would be for septic, when we get to that point sometime down the road.  That being said, I still want to build to code as much as possible for the safety aspect it provides, if for no other reason.  I want things to be right, but I don't want to be wasteful by overbuilding where it is not needed.

For the piers, I am thinking in the soil about 18" deep, wider at the base (12"-14" or so) with 6" of gravel, then above ground will be the 8" tubes, and will vary from 12"-18" high.   I will also use rebar in my piers.   Beams connected to the concrete piers using Simpson PB66 post bases that will be set into the piers.   I have not worked through connecting and bracing the joists to the beams, but I believe Simpson will be heavily involved.

[MountainDon]

shows 14'2" with a 40 lsb psf load.

Hmmmm... I get that 14-2 with 30 psf, not 40. .. 40 psf gives me 12-10 on SYP#2

Those are maximum spans for minimal performance, stretching to the limit of the L/360 deflection. For a part time cabin 30 psf may be realistic unless you plan on waterbeds, big gun safes, shelves of books and so on.

Another way to look at the floor joists is to build this as a lab and then see how it performs before going on to the next size. 

[DmnYnkee01]

30 live load, 10 dead load is where my 40 came from.  I think 30 live load would be realistic.  From what I was looking at the other day, Oklahoma snow load rating is 5-20 psf which is somewhat reduced even more with the 12/12 pitch roof.....and this will be a part time cabin, with no waterbeds or gun safes .

[MountainDon]

...don't want to be wasteful by overbuilding where it is not needed.

If we build to the code that would mean in many cases there is no possibility of overbuilding, as codes are minimums.  At least that is one way to interpret it.


Piers in the ground 18 inches will offer very little lateral support of themselves. You can not count on the upper 12 or so inches providing much support when the soil gets wet from a lot of rain for example. Even if you don't need the depth for frost deeper may be better for stability assurance. But I'm not an engineer and this is getting into an engineers territory. A concrete footer about 16x16x8 is most often used. If gravel is used under the footing it must be well compacted... better IMO, to simply dig down and place the concrete on undisturbed soil.

Have a look at Bigfoot Footing Systems.

Some soils are not at all suited for piers which is one reason you don't find them listed as a accepted system



In case you have not seen it the entire IRC code is online for free.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/index.htm
Iy is what most states use, although some modify some parts. It is full of very useful information. Takes a little study at times, but then many worthwhile things do.

[DmnYnkee01]

Even if you don't need the depth for frost deeper may be better for stability assurance.

Understanding that you are "not an engineer", and there are soil variables,  how deep would you feel is appropriate for the 12 x 12 piers?  2'-3' maybe?  When it comes to the 16x24, I was planning on those being deeper, larger diameter, and 3 rows instead of 2.

I very much appreciate the input Don.  From evrything I have read on other threads as well as my own, I can honestly say I value your opinions.

[astidham]

Understanding that you are "not an engineer", and there are soil variables,  how deep would you feel is appropriate for the 12 x 12 piers?  2'-3' maybe?  When it comes to the 16x24, I was planning on those being deeper, larger diameter, and 3 rows instead of 2.

I very much appreciate the input Don.  From evrything I have read on other threads as well as my own, I can honestly say I value your opinions.

since it is only a 12' run, I would pour (2) 16" wide by 18" deep footings with bolts or post brackets protruding.
It would probably not use anymore concrete than the pier, and you would not have to worry about the earth holding your lateral.

[DmnYnkee01]

By my calculations, that would take approximately 80 bags of 80 lb concrate, 40 for each run.  I am figuring about 4 bags per pier, so maybe 25 bags total, which is about $220 less concrete.  I just can't justify in my mind spending $300+ just on concrete for a 12 x 12, then the manual mixing for 80 bags is a real turn off 

But then again, it's late, I'm tired, and my calcuations could be way off. 

[astidham]

your calculation is right for the footings about 1.77 yards.
last time i ordered a concrete truck it was 95.00 a yard, no telling what it is now.

[NavyDave]

I've found my cement mixer to be one of my best investments. About $300 at Lowe's brand new and I can use it later for whatever i want. Or sell it after i'm done and recoup half of the investment......just a thought.

Looking forward to seeing your progress  models!

[archimedes]

No matter how you do the piers they will almost certainly not be as good a a continuous perimeter foundation.

Since your frost depth is so shallow,  why not just do it the right way and never have to worry about it again

If you only have to go down 18",  dig a trench around the perimeter - not much more digging than you're gonna do going deeper for all those piers.  Lay out 2X4 or 2x6 forms inside the trench (depending on what you'll use for the framing as these can be re-used).

The continuous footer only needs to be 12" wide and 6" thick.  12ft X 12ft that's only 54  60 lb bags of concrete (41 if you use 80 lb bags).  http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/howmuch/calculator.htm     Yes it's some work,  but very doable.  I've done it with a 16 x 24 building,  by myself.

Then dry stack 8x8x16 blocks w/ SBC and you have a real,  code compliant,  foundation that should last as long as you (and your kids).  You could also mortar the blocks but that always seems to intimidate people even though it's easy.

Sometimes going the easy route ends up not being easier,  or cheaper,  in the long run.

Just my two cents.

[DmnYnkee01]

All good ideas and info. I still want a crawl space I think.  For continuous perimeter, 2 layers of block would get be about 4" above grade, in theory, so I would need 4 layers of block stacked on top of the footing @ approximately $70 per layer to get 20" of crawl space.  Add that to the cost of the concrete, and that puts the total cost of foundation up around $500.

I know the foundation is an area where you don't want to cut corners, but I am on a shoestring budget.  I was planning on tieing the piers together about 1/3 of the way up with 2x and then skirt, with heavy duty lattice or something along those lines.  That was the reason for my 7" of cantilever, so I could cleanly skirt the underneath.  I currently have budgeted about $250 for the 12x12 foundation, which includes the piers and beams.

Something like this is what I envisioned, I am just not very good at sketchup