What are everyones ideas on floor insulation on post and pier?
Thanks,
Bruce
Well, I'm just a rookie ::), but I used fiberglass:
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/quitesweet/Building/Playhouse/subfloor/Subfloor14.jpg)
I have been thinking the same thing with a covering of hardware cloth on the bottom of the joist for critter proofing.
Glen, can I say it? (Icynene) !!!!!
Okie Bob
QuoteGlen, can I say it? (Icynene) !!!!!
Okie Bob
While I agree Icynene would be better, it could be pricey. The company I contact about told me they normally only did jobs worth a minimum of $1500.
They are going to work with me (for around $500) - but I am going to have to be very flexible as to when they do the work.
QuoteGlen, can I say it? (Icynene) !!!!!
Okie Bob
I don't know how I could stop you BoB. I think if you had your way we'd all be wearing Icynene insulated underwear in th winter. :-/
Take a look at this month's Fine Homebuilding. A couple companies are finally coming out with large scale DIY spray foam applications for your home.
Touch 'n Seal
Convenience Products
www.touch-n-seal.com
800-325-6180
Handi-foam
Fomo Products Inc.
www.fomo.com
800-321-5585
Tiger Foam
Commercial Thermal
Solutions Inc.
www.tigerfoam.com
800-664-0063
QuoteI have been thinking the same thing with a covering of hardware cloth on the bottom of the joist for critter proofing.
I have a stupid question.....
How do you get the hardware cloth on the BOTTOM of the joists? Do you crawl underneath? How could you put it down from above and still make it seal to the joists?
CC
How about rolling it out - shoving it under there andmaking little bent wire hooks to hook it and staple it to the sides of the floor joists. I assume this would be for ones who don't want to lay on their back in the dirt.
Also -- possibly 1/2 inch aviary netting may be cheaper -- not sure.
Quote-- possibly 1/2 inch aviary netting may be cheaper -- not sure.
Cheaper yes, in my experience. However it may not be up to preventing rodent infiltration.
Depends on the rodents.
pegboard works, but is not proof to a field mouse. Mice BTW, can slip thru a 1/4 inch opening like might be found with ill-fitting sloppy carpentry, under doors, etc.
And yes, either you or some appointed relative like a teenage son would have to crawl under. It's a lot easier if rodents are NOT a problem; but they are around here.
Hardware cloth is expensive if you intend to cover the entire underside. On my 14 ft wide plan with an approximate one foot joist overhang (over the support beams/girders) about using hardware cloth at the end overhangs with plywood on the in between span. ?? :-/ The insulation would be held up against the subfloor with the springy wire insert/supports and air could circulate under the insulation from one end to the other.
I'm not as fancy as the more experienced guys - I just used staples.
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/quitesweet/Building/Playhouse/subfloor/Subfloor11.jpg)
And, as you can see, I got to play underneath the structure before the kiddies did.
How big are the holes in your mesh? Looks big in the picture! Will a mouse get through?
How big is your "crawl space". I don't like dirt and creepy-crawlies, so am dreading crawling underneath.
1/4" x 1/4" - i think....
Please keep in mind, this is a rookie job site:
(https://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r288/quitesweet/Building/Playhouse/subfloor/Subfloor8.jpg)
From the scale of your 2x material pictured above I say 1/2 x 1/2.
Interesting article on "Aerogel" which can be used for insulation...
"Scientists hail 'frozen smoke' as material that will change world"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2284349.ece
Aerogel sounds like the next wonder pruct.
QuoteInteresting article on "Aerogel" which can be used for insulation...
"Scientists hail 'frozen smoke' as material that will change world"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2284349.ece
At the project in northern Alberta I'm working on we used it on high temp steam lines. We bought 10s of 1000s of square feet. Works very well for pipe as the thinner the insulation the less surface area. It was replacing other high temp insulations which are poor insulators. Still pretty costly like $3.5/sq ft for .25" thk.
Right now any scrap that I get will be used around wood stove.
Thanks for the pricing info.
that was on 150,000 sq ft so take if for what its worth. For now niche is where can replace high temp "hard" insulation like calcium silicate . The beauty of the aerogel is you can just wrap the stuff like a felt blanket. So one material does all sizes of pipe rather than a different product for every size plus all the labour that goes in to elbows.
So some is flexible then :-? I read about some that would shatter like glass and had some of the same components.
its very flexible , like a felt pad. Can compress with fingers to about 1/2 thickness but comes back. I folded and rolled a piece 4' x5' and stuffed into my duffle bag.
here's a link to what we used http://www.aerogel.com/products/pdf/Pyrogel_3350_6350_10350_DS.pdf
and pic (http://www.aerogel.com/markets/images/vessel8_full.jpg)
Thanks, skiwest! Interesting stuff - was looking at the pdf file - didn't see the "R" factor that someone like myself would understand.
Its in their site somewhere but 1" of Aerogel = R14 so 1" aerogel = 3.5 " firberglass
How not to insulate a floor...
(https://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w267/blackdog_2/Cottage/Insulation/FloorInsulation.jpg)
The above is a pic of the underside of our cottage we purchased last year. The previous owner of our place insulated the floor with fibreglass batts held in place with a strand of wire. It's open to the elements (cottage is on piers) and over the years it looks as if some has fallen and not been replaced. I now have about a 1/4 of the cottage floor (in various places) without any insulation.
In my mind it really serves no purpose except as a critter haven. I'm thinking of removing the remaining insulation until it can be replaced/installed the correct way. So far we have never used the place during the winter, so a warm floor isn't really required. Does it make sense to remove it?
Also, there seems to be a debate on the best way to insulate/critter proof a floor. I like the spray in place foam products, but costly in my area. Mice are my biggest problem. Pegboard or 1/4" hardware cloth seems to be the next best choice, but from previous posts it looks like they won't work. Does anyone have actual experience keeping mice out with pegboard or 1/4" hardware cloth?
Re: Rodents.
I've done a lot of searching for methods of preventing rodent (mice) access into an insulated floor space (from the bottom). 1/4 inch hardware cloth has been suggested in a couple places, but I have lost the bookmarks/links. My only objection to using it exclusively is the expene. But that would be better than having mice invade and having to redo it sometime later. I haven't yet decided how I will resolve the issue when I build.
From the NATIONAL PARK SERVICE RODENT-EXCLUSION MANUAL, MECHANICAL RODENT-PROOFING TECHNIQUES manual...
Use 19- or heavier gauge, galvanized, ¼-inch or smaller mesh hardware cloth to keep smaller animals (e.g., mice) out. Covering hardware cloth with metal window screening also keeps insects out.
Seems like a good plan but expensive. :)
Well............
I am still trying to come up with an idea that I won't regret in a few years so...
What do you think about sheeting the bottom of the joist with something like adventech, sturdifloor, treated plywood etc?
Sheeting the bottom of the joists with plywood would certainly be a good rodent barrier, taking care to not leave even any gaps as small as 1/4 inch. But then there's the problem of ventilation in case of moisture.
My cabin will be 14 ft wide, joists on 2 main girders set about a foot or so in from the sides. My thoughts have leaned towards sheeting the bottom of the joists between the girders with plywood or similar. Then covering the outboard ends of the joists, the area outside the girders with 1/4 inch hardware cloth, the smallest mesh I can find in stock locally. That's supposed to be tough enough and have a small enough opening to prevent mice from entering. My theory is that this will provide sufficient ventilation with the approx 1 inch air space between the fiberglass and the outside, lower plywood.
???
I thought about going with plywood but I'm also concerned about lack of ventilation. I suppose a galvanized soffit vent (http://www.airvent.com/homeowner/products/intake-undereave.shtml) with screening attached to the back (they have these in Home Depot) in each joist bay could aid in ventilation. ???
Back to my previous post... does it make sense to remove all the remaining insulation until I'm ready to do it a better way? The existing fibreglass has never been wet. It's only dirty, so I'm guessing I can reuse this stuff??
If the insulation has never been wet, has no evidence of mold I would not remove it. I'd replace the missing stuff and cover the bottom.
You might want to randomly pull some here ot there to check for evidence of mice. They do like to burrow in there and will leave droppings behind. In that case here in the SW I'd carefully remove and dispose of it all. That's because of the Hantavirus being prevalent here (spread my deer mice in my neck of the woods).
There has been definate mouse(and bee and who knows what else) activity. Not sure if the Hantavirus is in my area (Northern Ontario, Canada). Guess I'll look into this Hantavirus. Thanks!!
I would leave the insulation if no reason to remove it. I have had 2 dogs die of cancer or at least red painful growing growths, from getting into insulation stored in the barn. Industry paid for studies say this can't happen. I know it did.
While relatively safe I wouldn't want to over inhale it or get it moving through my body.
Found in over half of the lower 48 United States. Outside of the continental United States, cases have occurred in the following countries: Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Paraguay, and Uraguay.
http://www.hantavirus.net/
http://www.doh.wa.gov/EHSPHL/factsheet/hanta.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hantavirus
Ok. I've been concerned, as previously stated, about rodent intrusion prevention. I've put off serious further exploration into preventing their access. The cabin is yet to be built, but, Yikes!, I thought, my RV is a sitting duck!!
There are innumerable references to blocking all entrance possibilities with a variety or materials. Hardware cloth with 1/4 inch or smaller opening is frequently mentioned, but no specifics found so far regarding the underside of a cabin floor.
This may not help blackdog right now, but I'm going to gather as much info as I can and post a new thread regarding control. May take a short time as there are current projects/tasks in line already. But not too long. :-/
Don't forget steel wool in existing holes has been mentioned.
Thanks for your thoughts guys.
MountainDon, like you my project/task list grows every day. I'll likely won't do anything this year and leave as is. When I do eventually reinsulate I'll carefully remove the existing batts as the Hantavirus sounds nasty and start fresh. Thanks!!
I have found the 1/4" hardware cloth to be the lowest cost alternative.
OldDog, lowest cost may not always be the best alternative. Having said that, and I haven't done the math, but the 1/4" hardware cloth will likely be my choice also. Got a rough quote (site unseen) for sprayed-in-place polyurethane foam. R-7 per inch. A little under a $1,000 CDN per inch for 840 sq ft. Typically 3 or 4 inches are installed. So I'm looking at $3,000 - $4,000 CDN!! This is my first quote for the sprayed-in-place polyurethane foam so I have no idea if this is an average cost. Seems a little pricey.
It's a pricey quote, but it's pricey stuff. But it does a great job at insulating and stopping air infiltration. A big plus. Lot of money though. :-/
The real question is just how much ventilation is required for a fiberglass insulated floor. That's the difficult thing to ascertain. So far I've found nothing about that.
Another approach would be to enclose the space under the cabin, run good solid skirting all around the perimeter turning it into a crawl space in effect. Then you'd only have to decide on whether or not to take the ventilated or the non-ventuilated crawl space approach. Ventilated is traditional, but there are locations and methods for doing a non-vented crawl space. Then you'd just have to rodent proof the perimeter. Rodent proofing a perimeter is a fairly straight forward task.