I am finally having the well drilled this month, the driller needs to know of I want it lined or not. Do you line the whole well or just so far down? It's $4 a foot for 7" pvc pipe. I know that drilling a new well would be worst case. What is usually done? My neighbors isn't lined and is 240'.
Your driller, if a trustworthy guy, would be the best one to make a recommendation in this case. Ask him what he recommends. I drilled for about 10 years. The driller will be familiar with the local conditions. Minimum for a seal is 20' but it should be taken down at least to the surface of the bed rock or part of the formation that is solid enough to assure that there will not be caving or leakage around the seal. In an unconsolidated formation it is possible for material to break loose and fall locking the pump in the well. In a fractured rock formation that could also be a possibility. Ask the driller his opinion and it may even be possible he will want to decide after he sees the condition of the formation he is drilling through if he is not installing casing as he goes.
Casing is usually installed as the well is drilled in percussion drilling in unconsolidated formations. Solid rock many times does not require casing except for the seal.
I assume your driller will be doing some type of rotary drilling.
Around here everyone I've asked, all three of 'em, have the well lined. But like Glenn stated check locally.
Even tho it would add nearly a $1K to the cost I'd sure hate to find I couldn't pull up the pump at some future date due to no liner. :(
Note that my well here is 675 feet deep with 20 feet of casing and the pump is set at 320 feet deep in the open hole --with no known problems. :-?
Thanks to all. I had ask the driller, he will be putting in 20' but it is up to us for the rest because he doesn't want to force a purchase where he will make money, But he would protect his well if it were his. I guess I will find out if we hit bedrock, and how deep. We are drilling into sandy soil, my 4' footers had chunks of sandstone starting 6 inches down. Thanks again.
Please let us know how things work out.
Glenn, how did you determine the depth to set your pump? I had mine put clear down near the bottom rather than up higher. I guess I was thinking with all of our growth as more people drill and access the same water formation that the level might drop and I would still be in the wet.
A couple of factors on my pump depth.
If your flow is well over the capacity of the pump, then you could put it a minimum of about 10 to 20 feet under the water and be good for years. Your well driller will be familiar with the average annual fluctuation or loss of static level over the years. You can go deeper with no problem, but it's just that much more you have to pull out.
I had the drillers report of 1/2 gallon per minute estimated flow, and took a static level test at 169'. I knew I wanted a reservoir above the pump - in the well bore, so that I could pump a reasonable amount of water before running dry. I put a pump protector on the pump to shut it off when the well ran out of water. I sized my pump with the capacity to pump from 600 feet or more, so at 320 feet I am pumping about 10 gpm. I get about 400 gallons before running out - actual flow tested at 1 gpm after I had the pump in. To test - pump dry - shut off -- wait 5 minutes - pump dry while measuring the flow. Shut off and divide gallons by minutes. This is your recovery rate.
The next factor is that I wanted to add a windmill to the pump before I put it to the bottom. I could add a windmill cylinder, pipe and sucker rod at this point and set the windmill at 300 and the pump at 620 without pulling it out. What a project that would be. I have the windmill but the solar and electric is so easy, I hate to put it over the well.
Maybe I need to drill a new well for the windmill. :-/
More tests of well strength are as follows.
I use an electronic well sounder - beeps when it hits water. Pump off measure static level -- the highest it stands.
Pump on - usually 1/2 hour or until pumping level stabilizes - quits falling - this gets you to the bottom of the cone of depression - or the lowest point you can pump from the surrounding underground area at a given pumping rate. It could get greater over extended time but is good enough for us for this test.
Record the level. Shut the pump off. Check the level for 5 minutes and record the level again. This is your five minute recovery rate level.
You then take the reading you got -- lets say it came up 5 feet, and you were getting 10 gallons per minute pumping as an example. Divide the gpm by 5 feet recovery in 5 minutes and this gives you 2 gallons per foot of draw down.
If this was a test pump and you knew you wanted to get 40 gallons of water per minute, you would know that you would be pulling the pumping level down 20 feet to get 40 gallons per minute or 2gpfdd x 20 feet of draw down.
This would help in figuring out the required horsepower and in keeping from installing the pump to high, or in knowing that you may need a pump protector if you are going to be pumping over well capacity.
Anyone ever dig there own well? Besides Glenn with the proper well drilling tools.... more a DIY operation.
Someplace on this forum is a story of a self drilled well, or at least the attempt. I'd do a search but I was headimg off to bed. Gotta get up early tommorrow for something... Oh, Work. That's it! :o Oh, and I once dug a well on a lakeshore back home. With a shovel. (Water only for landscape irrigation, and because I wanted to see if it worked.)
When I was flying the medical personnel to the clinic in Mexico, I used to visit the villagers. The children of the village took me to their well drilling project. They had a ladder in a hole about 4 feet in diameter and 15 feet deep. Two men went down into the bottom of the well with a shovel, a bucket on a rope and a yellow plastic machine gun. They would fill the bucket and send it to the top - others would dump it and send it back down. This continued until they were done - I wasn't there to see it completed but they were very proud of it.
This is how they dug their well.
OK, I have to bite. Tell me about the yellow plastic machine gun. :-X
I knew this was going to happen. :-/
I think it was a squirt gun and they just used it to squirt themselves to cool off. I'm not really sure and didn't see them shoot anybody with it. :)
These were 2 older fellows - probably in their 30's - that just adds to the mystery. :-?
Did you install your own septic.
Given our love of topic highjacking, of course the well-drilling adventures would be on page two of that one.
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1163465601/20#20
Good Job, Amanda. You ferreted that thing right out. :)
I knew it was here somewhere. :-/
I really can't take much credit for that--I was going up the list of topics with new posts on them, and it was the next one up.
That doesn't happen all the time.
I read a book call "40 Acres and No Mule", they had dug their own well by using a green spring pole and a large pointed rock tied to the end, they would pull it down twist the rock real quick and let it up again. They did it to get through bedrock. After reading that I decided that the $1300 for the well seemed fair since he had the drilling rig I have rock.
That method was invented by the Chinese over 2000 years ago - percussion drilling. Sometimes it took them many generations to drill a well.
I did a later form of that drilling - Cable Tool drilling. I used drilling scows which were also known as bailers but weighed anything from 500 lbs empty to over 2000 lbs full on the big ones.
I all, my well has been dug I think I should have used the spring pole. We were going to drill next to the cabin but the health department wanted us to move up on the hill across the road so move we did. We hit shale at 20 feet and water at 25 feet, coal at 35 feet for 7 feet and a crevas at 50 feet hard rock at 55 feet and nothing ever came out after that. The driller said that the casting is going into the crevas so he stopped at 70 feet and left for the day to let it settle. He came back on Friday morning and drilled 20 feet and nothing came out. He wants to pump out the mess and clean up the bottom of the hole and see how much water we have and if it will be any good if lined and used for storage. Any thoughts out there because I am clueless. Thanks
Why I think rain water harvesting is good.
Where legal.
And maybe even where not.
Quote
Where legal.
Oh crap! Don't tell me collecting rain is illegal someplace!! :o :-? :-/ What's that all about? Well, actually please do tell me. :)
Thanks Amanda
I gather that in parts of the west (I was going to say arid, but it may not be, may be where they collect water to send to California) you do not own the water that falls on your house.
That water rights (like oil, gas, mineral, and timber rights in other places) do not necessarily go with the land when you buy it.
Well how about that! :o I know I don't have the gas, oil, and mineral rights, but I do have the timber rights. As for water I have a state permit to draw up to 3 acre-feet a year. I ever thought about the rain being regulated. :-/ I don't think I'll loose any sleep over the legality/illegality of it all. But that is interesting. Next they'll be telling me I can only breath so much air a year. ::)
Oh my goodness, I just looked and I may have a problem with the catch basin pond I want to build on one of the slopes for erosion control. I'm sorry I looked; I think I already forgot that I looked. :-X
Hi Mo.
If I read all of that right you had water at 25 feet - according to what you said the driller doesn't think there is any more water coming in below that one area - the rest is dry hole, but while it is not producing water it can be used to store water and your pump can be set deeper if he cleans it out - usually by surging with air or pumping. Sounds like he knows what he is doing. I drilled for 10 years.
Hey Don -- if I wanted to catch my own rainwater, they would play hell stopping me from doing it on my own land. >:(
That is right, getting it cleaned out is the problem, when he was blowing it it didn't come out. Is there other ways of cleaning it out?
I do have 1620 square feet of metal to harvest from, I might have to rethink this :-/
Or pumping, sorry about that Thanks
Quote
I do have 1620 square feet of metal to harvest from, :-/
That'll work as long as it rains. It's possible to build your own ferro-cement stoage tank. My only problem with that would be preventing freeze damage in winter... I haven't looked into all that much yet. If anybody has tips I'd be glad to hear 'em. A well sure has some advantages over collection.
I assume he is losing his air and water into the formation. It may or may not produce water - It could just produce it then lose it but you may be able to get it if the bottom is not losing it all.
Yes there is another way of cleaning it out. It will work with very little water in the well. He has to put 2 pipes down the well - a small one and a big one. I have used 3 inch and 4 inch for the big one - smaller would work - probably wouldn't want under 2 inch but I would prefer 3 as a minimum. For a shallow well the small one could be as small as 1/2 inch but I would prefer 3/4 or 1 inch . The first thing to g into the well would be a manifold with the small pipe elbowed into the large pipe. As an alternate method the big pipe can be put into the well near the bottom then the small one can go inside of it. I prefer the small one on the outside. After the mainifold is put into the well then he will begin adding sections of pipe to both the small one and the big one.
the small one is an air line - the big one is the blow pipe where water and sediment from the bottom of the well come out. Continue adding pipe to both the large and small until it hits the bottom. Short sections may be necessary to keep the big one from sticking up too high. It canbe under great pressure when the water first comes out and can fold over backwards if it is not secured -- not so bad on a shallow well but wild on a big one. Around 125 cfm compressor would be ideal but probably a bit less or a larger one would also work. this shouldn't be a problem for a driller.
This is called a double pipe air lift and it will keep the air from being lost in the formation and bring up even small amounts of water. A check valve at the bottom of the small pipe will keep it from plugging up with sand if the air is shut off and the well is surged ot open it up.
Thank you so much, the driller had talked about using the fire departments pump truck, he had never had this problem before. I googled and found this
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EDISImagePage?imageID=723145048&dlNumber=WI001&tag=IMAGE%20WI:WI001F9&credits=
I can do this if need be. how much water will a 90' deep 7" hole hold if I don't have water and have to divert my rain water somewhere?
Also there is a gas well about 500' from where we drilled, the gas company refractured it about a year ago would that effect the ground enough since the coal seem is at such a shallow depth?
Quote
I can do this if need be. how much water will a 90' deep 7" hole hold if I don't have water and have to divert my rain water somewhere?
Pi r squared times length = vol of cylinder
r= radius and length in same units of measurement, Pi = 3.142 repeating decmal forever
so that's about 180 gallons.
That is exactly it, Mo.
Note that the small pipe can go inside of the big pipe also if necessary due to size or any other reason - you will have to deal with a giant surge of water at the top. If it is pushed below the big pipe air will go outside and it will not pump - this is sometimes done to surge the well and knock the dirt loose. Usually I do it the oother way and after the water is pumping it can be shut off allowing the water to fall down the pipe then restart it to surge and clean it. I usually weld a elbow over a hole on the side of the big pipe about two or three feet above the bottom but the effect is the same. The air mixes with the water making it light so unmixed water rushes in the bottom and it all becomes mixed with air and light so it is pushed out the top.
Assuming sufficient water, and pumping level at 1 to 1 submergence you would get about 1 gallon of water per cubic foot of air --- 2 to 1 submergence will give around 2 gallons of water per cubic foot of air. If you don't have that much water then lots of air will push whatever is there out. This is rule of thumb stuff and varies widely.
Anything done to a nearby well can affect your well or groundwater. I have had my air go underground and come up a well 150 feet away. They can communicate underground. They can also be totally separate and sealed if theirs is much deeper and the fracturing was done at a deep depth. I have seen distant earthquakes break wells in the area i used to drill in. Actually earthquakes in Japan and other places recently were said to relieve stresses at Yellowstone National Park.
It's a small world after all. Sorry about that -- now the song is probably going through your head isn't it? :-/ :)
Forgot to mention that the formula will get you the cu.inches then go here http://www.foreign-trade.com/resources/volume.cfm and plug in the cu.in. and read the table for gallons, liters, whatever.
and would somebody please tell Joni to go home....
Don did the calc that I forgot -- one thing -- I would get a tank if you are down to storing rainwater. The well if it had water but now does not is losing water into a fracture in the ground. It would likely take all the water you can give it and keep on going.
If the bottom of the well is losing water it can be plugged with bentonite pellets then maybe you can recover the water from 25 feet - if that is the case you should be able to see the water falling with a mirror and shining the sunlight into the well. We could see hundreds of feet sometimes that way. Don't put in too much bentonite if you use it - it could plug off the whole well.
Check your personal messages at the top of the page-- I will send you my phone number if the driller has any questions.
::)It is quite odd but that is the third time today that song has filled my empty noggin.
As for harvesting if it rained 1" and I had diverted my roof to the empty hole in the ground it would overflow by approximately 700 gallons so I would need a bigger hole.
Thought I'd put the air lift here so we can see what we are talking about.
(http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/images/723145048)
Quote
If the bottom of the well is losing water it can be plugged with bentonite pellets
It's good to hear there's a good use for bentonite. Once I sat for a whole day in the 4x4 waiting for the sun to dry the ground out enough to make it safe to go down a dugway in Utah. Was even worse trying to go up. The ground there had a layer of bentonite just laying there waiting for an unsuspecting jeep and a rain squall.
If the water is at the top would lining the rest of the well with solid pipe and closing off the bottom keep the water in?
I was thinking of putting in a 1000 gallon storage tank and pumping from the well and harvesting from the roof. I think that would be enough.
Nothing much slipperier than bentonite. I used it once in a while if I was in massive amounts of sand and couldn't drill through - sometimes it helped thicken things up a bit and stop it from flowing into the borehole.
If I am not mistaken 1 cu. Ft of water is 7.5 gallons or thereabouts. And you may not have the right to the water under your land but what lands on your roof is fair game.
QuoteIf the water is at the top would lining the rest of the well with solid pipe and closing off the bottom keep the water in?
No - the bentonite would be the only way to seal the bottom - ok - not the only way, but a good way. The driller could fill the bottom of the well back up to ja few feet below the point where he knew he was getting water then pour some bentonite on top or cement bags to seal it. Being a small well the cement bags wouldn't work well - I used them in larger wells. The water would go down the outside of the pipe and get away anyway. The bentonite without the pipe would seal the actual lower borehole and seal off the fractures. It would probably be easiest to fill the bottom with pea gravel then put about 5 feet of bentonite on top if necessary. Before going to that trouble I would double pipe it and clean it first. It may have no problem other than taking all the drillers air and water - it may still produce water with no problem - just a hole in the formation that will not let the driller get the water to the top with air.
Note that if he is a rotary driller he could use his drill stem as the big pipe if it is large enough -- then all he has to do is add a small air line down the center to bring the water up if he has a way to hold it up.
QuoteIf I am not mistaken 1 cu. Ft of water is 7.5 gallons or thereabouts. And you may not have the right to the water under your land but what lands on your roof is fair game.
Actually I have heard of places with laws against you taking the rain water - even from your roof. This is a police state country you know. :-/
And right on the cu-ft gallons.
From what I went and researched tonight on this topic of "stealing" rainwater, here in NM it may very well be illegal to divert such water, not only from your roof, but from what may be running down a slope on your property. ::) At the same time it may also be illegal under a different set of laws to allow that water to flow out onto public property. :-? :-? No wonder we have so many lawyers and are the worse off for it.
Keep your pwder dry!
Now Glenn, I believe this is possible. In California do you have rain police? :-? When it isn't raining do they become canola cops?
I know you can't divert a stream or river but come on now, your rain gutters? :(
Don, it is funny you should mention the slope on your property. I have an area like that I was thinking of damming up, of course using natural materials. I have to haul every drop of water I use up there. Water, if you can get any is roughly 1000 feet deep and I hit bedrock real quick. Drilling would be pretty cost prohibitive. Hauling water entails about 15 miles of rough road and one heck of a climb in a couple of spots. I bring 300 gallons at a time. So harvesting water was on my future agenda. The nice thing about my corner of the planet up there is no one knows I am there. I don't think the water police will find me. 8-)
I haven't found them yet - just heard of them doing it in some areas.
While doing a search for them I found this:
The man who farms water (http://ag.arizona.edu/OALS/ALN/aln46/lancaster.html)
Colorado has regulations
QuoteRainwater harvesting is the process of
intercepting stormwater run-off and putting it to
beneficial use, such as irrigation. The diversion
or harvest of rainwater is subject to Colorado
law. Any rainwater harvesting strategy more
sophisticated than simply positioning roof gutter
downspouts in areas you wish to water may have
legal barriers.
Texas - looks like you can do it if done right.
QuoteThe State of Texas holds title to surface water in trust for the public welfare. Motl v. Boyd, 116 S.W. 458 (1926); In re Adjudication of Water Rights of the Upper Guadalupe Segment, 642 S.W.2d 438, 445 (Tx. 1982). Section 11.021 of the Texas Water Code defines the surface water owned by the state to include the water of the ordinary flow, underflow and tides of every flowing river, natural stream and lake and of every bay or arm of the Gulf of Mexico, as well as the storm water, flood water and rainwater of every river, natural stream, canyon, ravine, depression and watershed in the state. In short, any channelized flow of water is deemed to be owned by the state.
Diffused surface water is not state water. These are waters which do not flow in any defined water course but rather cross the surface of the earth in variant and unregulated ways. Diffused surface water is subject to capture and use by the landowner without obtaining permission of the state through a permit. The trick, of course, is capturing the water before it enters any type of creek, ravine, stream or river. Several Texas cases have also recognized that the water in an underground stream or the underflow of a surface stream is state water.
That cinches it. I am now a Texazonian. 8-)
Wow, that's nuts. Groundwater recharge is a concern but that's nuts. Here in MA, I have to design my storm water systems to approximate pre-construction recharge rates- far more reasonable.
I did find areas where it was recommended, some with credits and one area in India where rainwater harvesting is mandatory. Lawmakers are never happy. There has to be some kind of law for us to violate so they can collect fines.
Nearly forgot - I consulted on a well for a school in Kenya yesterday. Its one of these areas where they have to go over 600 feet for water. I recommended rainwater harvesting and ferrocrete tanks as once the technology people leave it is possible the well will not be able to be maintained and will slip into non-use. Well, well, well. :-/
An old friend in the computer industry has formed a group to build several schools there. I built a building for him in the 80's, in fact he is the one who first taught me to use a spreadsheet.
This is the one in particular --- http://www.buildafricanschools.org/project_sekenani.html
I started looking into rainwater harvesting, I can do it but I have to have the holding tanks and drain system inspected and approved if over 55 gallon barrel size. This just kind of dumbfounds me since I don't have to have anytype of inspection on the cabin, house, garage, etc. except if I have water or septic and that would include self composting, an outhouse, airiated septic, or standard septic. As for water: inspections on well, cistern, holding tanks, harvesting, a pond that is over 11' 11" deep, or a spring.
I can put a house on 20' stilts (made out of 4X4's) overlooking a creek in a hill of shale with the run off diverted under the cabin and shooting into the creek and nobody cares but let me get 60 gallons of diverted water and I am in trouble. (Inspections Lady said "Yes and?
I spoke with my wellman, he has never used a double pipe air lift, and doesn't want to try it. His drill has an air compresser on it but he can't figure out how the air will get under the finings. He wants to have the fire dept. bring up thier pump truck and blow out the well. They said they would come up and look at the area to see if they can. We'll see on Saturday.
Thanks for your help
It works like a vacuum cleaner or dredge. I assume you are making some water from above - it will all flow down the outside of the large pipe then go inside of it and shoot out the top. If you don't have a lot of water it will surge then refill then go again, or you may have to shut the air off then turn it on again to get it over the top. He has to keep it off the bottom a few inches then slowly lower it as it cleans out -- it will suck the bottom clean.
Do you know where the water static level is? Where it is standing as when just sitting? Did he have an estimate of how much water he had at 25 feet.
My offer still stands - I would gladly answer his questions about how to do it. He can call me or I could call him. I would need to get more information from him on the specifics of the well and his equipment to be able to help the most. He could use the knowledge anyway if he hasn't done it before.
Please keep us posted.
We are going up tomorrow and I will check the water leavel and measure down to the sediment. He doesn't even want to look at using this method. He is going to meet me up there so I will take all the information with me. Thanks again.
I am back from WV and I hope this makes since. I tied my plumb bob up to my daughters kite string and let it down the well. It is lined to 20 feet. I went to the bottom of the water where the line stopped and pulled the line until it was taught. I made a mark on the line and then rolled it in and measured from the top of the well to the water line 27' then from the water line to the end of the plumb bob 90'. The color of the line changed at 72'. The wellman couldn't come up because of the snow, I sent him the information above but he still doesn't want to try it so he is going to go up and use a bailer(?) to empty out the bottom of the well and then drop down an old pump and finish cleaning it out. thank you for all the information and help if he doesn't get it cleaned up his way we get to try this way.
That makes a lot of sense, Mo. Static level is 27 feet - 90 to the bottom - probably slurry in the bottom. A bailer and pump will likely work. hopefully he has an oversized test pump to pull more water than you are planning to so it will clean up good. Double pipe air lift would work for sure and do a much better job. First surge it would blow a solid pipe of water for about 20 seconds then whatever was coming in would continue to blow out in much smaller quantities but if submergence stayed at 50%, a 125 cfm compressor would produce about 125 gallons per minute - only if the well had that much water to supply though.
Let me know if there is anything else I can do to help. Sounds like you will get something from it anyway. The pump will produce water even if the single pipe air lift won't as it doesn't lose water to the formation.
A friend just had a well drilled here in NC they had hit water at 120' at 19 gpm, her driller wanted to go on down because that wasn't enough :-? . So they went down to 380'+-, were they were getting 25 gpm then another 75' for a pocket, total well of 455' . If the pump they put in only pumps 5.5 gpm wouldn't the 19gpm been sufficent? If my thinking is correct then I should be fine if it is off the wall I might need to go back to the driller.
I don't know what the situation on ground water is in North Carolina. I'd think it might be very like it is here. Most people find water when they drill a well. Only have problems with their wells during long dry spells. Long dry spells I do remember from my childhood in the Sandhills area. Including the story of the only (he was possibly retarded) person to bring an umbrella to the community "prayer for rain."
And that might be the reason your friends' driller wanted to go down. Not (just?) that he enjoyed drilling wells.
but if you'd like to read a horror story on the subject, one of my favorite mystery authors, Sarah Andrews, has a book, now out in mass market paperback, on a development in Colorado that is, as predicted, running out of water. It ain't purty.
Her mind works quite strangely. Part of the reason I like her.
Dead Dry.
Here's her website, opened to that page:
http://www.sarahandrews.net/deaddry.htm
I'd agree with Amanda. I think the driller wanted to go deep enough to allow for dry spells and even perhaps the lowering of the water table due to increasing use over time. I'd think one of life's nasty surprises would be having to drill a new one in a few years because the first one didn't go deep enough. It would be interesting to know what the wells in the area have been doing over the past couple decades. Here in NM they've been dropping.
That is correct thinking on the pumping quantity and as the others say things can change.
My well produces 1 gallon per minute and that is still plenty of water for a garden too. If the pump pumps more water than the well produces you have to put a pump protector on it - that shuts the pump off and times it until the well recovers a bit.
There are lots of solutions. The extra cavity for storage is part of the safety net.
A neighbors well is at 100' and has never went low, another has a creek they pump from into a pond then pumps to a large tank, he does this daily. The others have gone onto city water over the last few years. I do have 2 springs on the property that run all year. I can't just tap into them for our water because they are to close to where the Health dept. wants the septic placed. Maybe I am lucky enough to hit the top of the spring ;). We'll see.