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General => General Forum => Topic started by: NathanS on January 23, 2020, 12:40:45 PM

Title: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 23, 2020, 12:40:45 PM
Well now that the house is pretty well done, I am thinking about building a garage this summer. Being that there is a little one involved, I want to keep this build as simple and streamlined as possible. There was a part of me that wanted to integrate a breezeway from the house, cold cellar, upstairs office, a greenhouse... more I have thought about it, I just realistically don't have nearly enough time to do all that, and I will end up waiting years to have time to build something like that.

Instead I am thinking about a small stand-alone 20 x 24 -ish structure with a lean-to roof on one side for the tractor, and possibly even a vehicle at times / dry place for firewood.

Something like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/BYAfpVT.png)


Stick framed on a full foundation with a 4' stem wall below the frost line. Scrape away top soil, fill with stone and float a slab. Basically the same foundation I built for the house.

I was thinking 20' wide because I can get 20' SYP as attic joists that should (still need to run the numbers) be fine for storage of some household stuff and probably some lumber at times. I have no desire to deal with trusses. If I went to 24 or 28' I would have to spring for I-joists or floor trusses, or I would need to put posts in somewhere midspan-ish. Part of me thinks it might not be such a big deal to have 2-3 posts mid span (also need footings under them now), but I really don't know. Looking for opinions on that one.

For the roof looking somewhere around 8-12 for the gable and 3-12 for the lean to. Trying to squeeze as much width as possible under the lean-to before the overhang gets to head-butt height. At 3-12 I think I have around 8' of width if the lean-to roof just sits on the top plate.

I am also wondering if I should go deeper than 24' to something like 28 or 30. I need to call and re-confirm this, but when we were fighting with the local assessor over a ridiculous assessment on our house she said that any garage only adds 5k to assess property value. If that is true it might be worth going a little bigger.

Realistically the garage is only going to house cars during snow events or when they need to be worked on. Otherwise it really is going to be a workshop / place to do stuff during the winter.

Then there is location, the terrain view in my sketchup isn't right, so bear with me. House faces due south, terrain slopes probably at around 8% E-SE. Directly behind the house would probably be easiest, and require the least amount of stone fill for the slab.

(https://i.imgur.com/kkHejs3.png)

The other location that may be nicer, is like this -

(https://i.imgur.com/RTkS8UC.png)

That is the location where I started thinking - hmm, a covered porch on the east side of the house (already planning to do that at some point in the future) that had a breezeway to connect it to the garage would be pretty awesome. With proper set back from the house the gable roof would be oriented perfectly for solar panels if we ever did that as well. That south side could also potentially be a good spot for a lean-to greenhouse. Greenhouse or breezeway or solar panels could probably be added on at some point in the future, though I do plan to use an ag metal roof and it may be a little tricky to cut into that.

The issue with this location is that I would need quite a bit of stone to fill in for the slab, and I also would potentially need to drag our storage shed somewhere else to have way for excavation.

I think I can do the garage for around 20k in the cheaper location, it would maybe be another 2k? of fill if I do it in the maybe-better location.

I am also debating just hiring someone to come excavate everything in one day, or buying a 3 point backhoe attachment for my tractor and doing it myself. I am not really sure I have the time though. Anyone have experience with those? We have about 2 foot of loose glacial till soil and then it's hard pan. I'd only be digging in the hard pan for the footings.

Looking for any general advice on how you wish your garage/workshop would be laid out, and also any adjustments you would make to dimensions or building ideas. And what you guys think of locations and all that.

Thanks for any feedback and feel free to ask any questions about details I have omitted.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on January 25, 2020, 10:08:53 AM
You'll not regret going larger, my shop is 24x30 and I wish it were double that size. For garage doors at least a 9' ceiling is better. I'd price the upper floor and roof framing and then price attic trusses.

If you haven't seen the narrow wall portal framing stuff for the garage door opening it is here, there is more on that site;
https://www.apawood.org/publication-search?q=TT-100&tid=1
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: MushCreek on January 26, 2020, 08:13:43 AM
If you're wanting a two car garage, 20' is not wide enough. Sure, you can get two cars in there, but they have to be perfectly aligned and placed to open the doors. Add a workbench and tool box, and you're out of space. I'd go 24' wide as a minimum. Just have attic trusses built and be done with it. I'd go deeper, too, if you have the space.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: GaryT on January 26, 2020, 11:06:13 AM
I remembered from years ago that I got some garage plans from Curtis lumber.  Googled that up, and lo and behold, Curtis still sells garage packages.  Might be worth investigating.  I know they are in the Albany area...don't know if they are over your way.
https://www.curtislumber.com/products/two-car-garages/

Gary
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Dave Sparks on January 26, 2020, 11:28:55 AM
Where is it located? If weather is an issue I like it attached with a breezeway or something. Hard to beat an attached garage....
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 26, 2020, 07:35:01 PM
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

DonP - on 9 ft walls that is a good point for the door, I could probably also get the headroom by using another 2 courses of block after pouring the slab. Then I could still just stand 4x8 sheathing vertically.

Mushcreek - point taken on width. Right now ideally I would want space for my compact tractor under the lean-to, and then pull our car under there during snow storms. And pull the truck into the garage for snowstorms. Otherwise I don't see putting cars in there for any other purpose other than working on them. One of the first jobs would be splitting our old tractor to fix the PTO double clutch.

GaryT- that is funny on Curtis - that is where I ordered materials for the bulk of our house. They have a store in most of the towns around here. If you give them building plans they will actually calculate all the materials out for you, which they did, and got wrong. ;) If I don't get my lumber from an Amish sawmill that is where I would order everything.

Dave Sparks - Yes we have nasty winters, I have thought about a breezeway. I may actually place the garage so that I can do that in the future when I build a covered porch.


Response about trusses - I haven't used them but have some concerns.

1) when building the house they were a fair amount more expensive than 20' 2x8 attic joists and 16' 2x10 #1 SYP rafters
2) If I use 2x12 joists I can stuff R-38 insulation in between, put plywood down on top and drywall the ceiling and have my storage and insulation done with, simple and easy
3) I can't set trusses by myself, I would need at least 1 other person, maybe 2. It would either require a lot of planning or I would more likely just have to pay someone for the day, and I'm a little paranoid about having someone walking top plates that almost certainly wouldn't be insured. I'm assuming the delivery boom truck could swing them into place?
4) I also really enjoyed stick framing our roof, it was probably my favorite part of the carpentry work

If I go wider than 20' I would need a double 11 7/8 LVL and two posts mid span which would definitely be a knock against stick framing. Also I'd likely need two garage doors instead of one big one, which sounds like they may not fit a 20' wide garage. Unless I could run LVLs across the garage door opening that were strong enough to support the mid-span LVL for the joists.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: MountainDon on January 26, 2020, 09:08:54 PM
Quote from: NathanS on January 26, 2020, 07:35:01 PM
2) If I use 2x12 joists I can stuff R-38 insulation in between, put plywood down on top and drywall the ceiling and have my storage and insulation done with, simple and easy

Nathan, that caught my eye.  IF, by "stuff" you mean to compress the std R-38 fiberglass batts to fit in a 2x12 space, you are losing R-value. You don't lose a lot on R-38 with 2x12, but there is a small loss.  There are charts a search will find.

We have a 20 x 24 garage turned shop and I wish it was larger, but if it was I might still want more floor space.   ;)   However, I definitely would like a 9 or 10-foot ceiling height. That comes from handling lumber for carpentry, but would also be better for lifting engines out of a vehicle.  I'm not sold on using an upper floor for storage though.

We have a single 16' door in the 20'  wall.  I would like a 24 wide wall with two 9 foot doors much better.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 07:55:51 AM
I echo everyone's comments regarding size...my shop is only 20X30 and if it was 30X40 it would still be too small.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who built smallish, and never wished they had gone bigger.  Heck, even the 10X14 garden shed I built is way to small for us!
Gary
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 27, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: MountainDon on January 26, 2020, 09:08:54 PM
Nathan, that caught my eye.  IF, by "stuff" you mean to compress the std R-38 fiberglass batts to fit in a 2x12 space, you are losing R-value. You don't lose a lot on R-38 with 2x12, but there is a small loss.  There are charts a search will find.

We have a 20 x 24 garage turned shop and I wish it was larger, but if it was I might still want more floor space.   ;)   However, I definitely would like a 9 or 10-foot ceiling height. That comes from handling lumber for carpentry, but would also be better for lifting engines out of a vehicle.  I'm not sold on using an upper floor for storage though.

We have a single 16' door in the 20'  wall.  I would like a 24 wide wall with two 9 foot doors much better.

Good points on the ceiling height. Another benefit of added ceiling height is that I could make the lean-to wing(s) wider with almost no difference in labor.

I didn't mean for the insulation comment to get too detailed. I think blown in is actually a little cheaper and would probably do that. Preliminarily, I doubt I will even insulate until after the building permit is closed out.

Quote from: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 07:55:51 AM
I echo everyone's comments regarding size...my shop is only 20X30 and if it was 30X40 it would still be too small.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who built smallish, and never wished they had gone bigger.  Heck, even the 10X14 garden shed I built is way to small for us!
Gary

Yeah I'm glad to have gotten this feedback.

Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 10:54:20 AM
"Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area."

I very definately wish I had more than the 20X30 open space.   I have a large assembly table in the middle of my shop which also serves as outfeed for table saw,  along one wall is a combination Radial Arm and 12" compound slider bench.  Then there's a joiner, a planer, a wall full of shelves for power/hand tools, paints, glues, you name it.  there's also a band saw.  and a floor drill press.  And I have double doors to the outside world on one end.   No space for extra lumber, my framing/matting supplies are covered in dust, and on and on it goes.   

Think also about all the liquids you want to keep from freezing.   And the sheer weight of so many stationary power tools that makes moving them around a pain, even when they're on casters.

Having said all that....you either have a garage or a shop.  Tough to combine them both in one building.   Now, if you REALLY want to see some shops and garages, go here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

Good luck with the project, Nathan (and make sure you have those 9' ceilings!)
Gary
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: jsahara24 on January 27, 2020, 11:45:45 AM
Quote from: NathanS on January 27, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area.

I have a 20x30 pole barn at my cabin.  It has a post in the middle of each "bay", so when you drive in the garage door there is a post on either side of your vehicle.  I don't use it for working on vehicles, but do use it for working on snowmobiles/atvs/boats/etc.  By the time I added stairs to the loft, a wood stove, workbenches, etc. i'm not sure that I could get even get a vehicle in there beyond my little car.  I am looking ato adding a lean too off the back to store my toys and keep the barn open for bringing in things to work on and hanging out. 

Id say minimum depth is 24' if you want vehicles in there to work on, no posts in the middle and 9' minimum ceiling height.  If you have the lean to you describe that would help for sure.  I am now planning a pole barn for my house and i'm thinking 30x40 with lean to's on both sides.  Give me room to store my toys on the sides and leave the barn open for projects. 

Here is a pic of a 20x30.  Good luck!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8OVw9NfjiiPAtKJ6sDHf7CVk5sUHB_506ZEl2ikvhBplgtjBvGIftwAr-hY25cDrtE1-ydm9dLggHJM0fOtunRhMzX4g5UvoyaHw9AXD2SmXZi0jcj98J9KX-_oGtlvI87qkM2mBYqwn_0z0DquUc3FMaYO_7MqzKReEKK5L5p7oCmkUC5jqP4xhDLwofaOQhkccwtcki7LtzAjqeirlRX_3IQI9v4KZMaPSdQVtnjEZFR7VhwM4sXNgD9PuIxzfvQZAc78j_8oagD1zrxufmNcd1gGu7sBrNKNPHa2FOZshTF-jEcqbmGhh5L7mVIjg9sy0wsLmSKf8JHfgXnVg6h61oXXvhRZy79tAuy4_RC-ythpZXo6wU2wgGMfzuowCtc-YjbGT0WbH3_aoYKfOjamN14u2YRqpYUfeDSiCx0KiuNwVO4liOjkYKaGq0UaloJtZjcHZpBYW821DaS8S4IOO1Sy2AyJwBu9OU55IxM-WodAs2Shjvo3yAl6ZltJEm0qLaZgUpfiQmVemJM-0f4X14XmQResRSoDlgUg5WUtc6Z70cXKnvxtqrjQiNGdjmPhnQ_NmL1dTK7J96os5D3UpU13tTFHDJGqZADXqy6BGWs1M4LKDb1LRmPPRcjpC0p6yk35ryX8vNCkXRXEK8NC4ceXZQOv0Jwc-bvhRo9J6t7qWkxsIU4Y=w1125-h844-no)

Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 27, 2020, 12:16:18 PM
Quote from: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 10:54:20 AM
"Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area."

I very definately wish I had more than the 20X30 open space.   I have a large assembly table in the middle of my shop which also serves as outfeed for table saw,  along one wall is a combination Radial Arm and 12" compound slider bench.  Then there's a joiner, a planer, a wall full of shelves for power/hand tools, paints, glues, you name it.  there's also a band saw.  and a floor drill press.  And I have double doors to the outside world on one end.   No space for extra lumber, my framing/matting supplies are covered in dust, and on and on it goes.   

Think also about all the liquids you want to keep from freezing.   And the sheer weight of so many stationary power tools that makes moving them around a pain, even when they're on casters.

Having said all that....you either have a garage or a shop.  Tough to combine them both in one building.   Now, if you REALLY want to see some shops and garages, go here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

Good luck with the project, Nathan (and make sure you have those 9' ceilings!)
Gary

Thanks for in depth thoughts. I'm going to spend some time going through garagejournal. Non-freeze stuff is going to have to stay in the house. I am way too cheap to keep the space from freezing and our winters are just too severe.

It is more accurate to call this a workshop than a garage. I'm not really a car guy and the extent that they need their own house is limited to me not wanting to push snow off their roofs for the rest of my life.



Quote from: jsahara24 on January 27, 2020, 11:45:45 AM
I have a 20x30 pole barn at my cabin.  It has a post in the middle of each "bay", so when you drive in the garage door there is a post on either side of your vehicle.  I don't use it for working on vehicles, but do use it for working on snowmobiles/atvs/boats/etc.  By the time I added stairs to the loft, a wood stove, workbenches, etc. i'm not sure that I could get even get a vehicle in there beyond my little car.  I am looking ato adding a lean too off the back to store my toys and keep the barn open for bringing in things to work on and hanging out. 

Id say minimum depth is 24' if you want vehicles in there to work on, no posts in the middle and 9' minimum ceiling height.  If you have the lean to you describe that would help for sure.  I am now planning a pole barn for my house and i'm thinking 30x40 with lean to's on both sides.  Give me room to store my toys on the sides and leave the barn open for projects. 

Here is a pic of a 20x30.  Good luck!

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8OVw9NfjiiPAtKJ6sDHf7CVk5sUHB_506ZEl2ikvhBplgtjBvGIftwAr-hY25cDrtE1-ydm9dLggHJM0fOtunRhMzX4g5UvoyaHw9AXD2SmXZi0jcj98J9KX-_oGtlvI87qkM2mBYqwn_0z0DquUc3FMaYO_7MqzKReEKK5L5p7oCmkUC5jqP4xhDLwofaOQhkccwtcki7LtzAjqeirlRX_3IQI9v4KZMaPSdQVtnjEZFR7VhwM4sXNgD9PuIxzfvQZAc78j_8oagD1zrxufmNcd1gGu7sBrNKNPHa2FOZshTF-jEcqbmGhh5L7mVIjg9sy0wsLmSKf8JHfgXnVg6h61oXXvhRZy79tAuy4_RC-ythpZXo6wU2wgGMfzuowCtc-YjbGT0WbH3_aoYKfOjamN14u2YRqpYUfeDSiCx0KiuNwVO4liOjkYKaGq0UaloJtZjcHZpBYW821DaS8S4IOO1Sy2AyJwBu9OU55IxM-WodAs2Shjvo3yAl6ZltJEm0qLaZgUpfiQmVemJM-0f4X14XmQResRSoDlgUg5WUtc6Z70cXKnvxtqrjQiNGdjmPhnQ_NmL1dTK7J96os5D3UpU13tTFHDJGqZADXqy6BGWs1M4LKDb1LRmPPRcjpC0p6yk35ryX8vNCkXRXEK8NC4ceXZQOv0Jwc-bvhRo9J6t7qWkxsIU4Y=w1125-h844-no)



More great feedback. Thank you. I think one of my next steps is going to be drawing out tools, work benches and storage.

8' ceilings are definitely out now.

I know pole barns are a pretty popular choice, my main concern with that is the severity of our winters would making heating it with a woodstove very difficult. Also I would say pole structures on my soil type tend to heave over the years.

Actually I am not really familiar with the permitting process for a pole barn, I am guessing you buy a kit with an engineers stamp on it?
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: jsahara24 on January 27, 2020, 01:00:06 PM
Quote from: NathanS on January 27, 2020, 12:16:18 PM

I know pole barns are a pretty popular choice, my main concern with that is the severity of our winters would making heating it with a woodstove very difficult. Also I would say pole structures on my soil type tend to heave over the years.

Actually I am not really familiar with the permitting process for a pole barn, I am guessing you buy a kit with an engineers stamp on it?

I'm up on the Tug Hill not too far from you so I understand your winter heating concerns.  I have the typical pole barn construction, 6x6 posts every 10' with 1x4s connecting them every 18" up the sides.  I have the roof insulated, and the second floor ceiling insulated.  In the winter I have plywood installed to block off the stairs and keep the heat downstairs.  The walls have 1" foam between the 1x4s so certainly less than ideal.  When its really cold I use a propane torpedo heater to bring it up to temp and then the wood stove will generally maintain the heat in the 60s.  When its moderate (32*) the wood stove can handle it on its own as long as you get it going a couple hours before you intend to work out there. 

I am thinking the best way to insulate a pole barn is like you did on your house, using foam on the outside then siding.....I currently just have t1-11 on my barn that is starting to show its age, so i'm thinking about going that route and then do a board and batten or horizontal lap siding.  We have a lot of amish in my area and they sell wood very cheap. 

As for permitting i'm not sure, things are pretty lax up my way.  If you are under 1500 sf you don't need engineered drawings.

Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
Ah, the Tug Hill Plateau!  I lived there for 10 years, near the wildlife management area where I did the research for my PhD.   built this garage myself, with dog kennels (inside and outside runs) for my english setter birddogs.   It was insulated, but not heated.  built really good dog houses inside for each pooch that kept them warm to 30 below (I actually checked that several times).  It was 24 X 36, and I'd do that one again! 

(https://i.imgur.com/I4CB5gP.jpg)

Sorry for the slight hijack, Nathan.
Gary
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 27, 2020, 06:16:59 PM
Quote from: jsahara24 on January 27, 2020, 01:00:06 PM
I'm up on the Tug Hill not too far from you so I understand your winter heating concerns.  I have the typical pole barn construction, 6x6 posts every 10' with 1x4s connecting them every 18" up the sides.  I have the roof insulated, and the second floor ceiling insulated.  In the winter I have plywood installed to block off the stairs and keep the heat downstairs.  The walls have 1" foam between the 1x4s so certainly less than ideal.  When its really cold I use a propane torpedo heater to bring it up to temp and then the wood stove will generally maintain the heat in the 60s.  When its moderate (32*) the wood stove can handle it on its own as long as you get it going a couple hours before you intend to work out there. 

I am thinking the best way to insulate a pole barn is like you did on your house, using foam on the outside then siding.....I currently just have t1-11 on my barn that is starting to show its age, so i'm thinking about going that route and then do a board and batten or horizontal lap siding.  We have a lot of amish in my area and they sell wood very cheap. 

As for permitting i'm not sure, things are pretty lax up my way.  If you are under 1500 sf you don't need engineered drawings.

Ahh, I forgot you are on Tug Hill, it's coming back to me now. I'm so used to everyone being in warmer places than me.

Good info on the pole barn. I can call and ask the inspector about pole buildings, but I'd be surprised if he allowed it based on our past conversations.

For putting foam on the exterior, I agree that is probably the best way to go. But oof, it is so much more work than cavity insulation and if you don't find a good deal on used, the foam is really expensive. All the furring and structural screws add up too - totally worth it on a house, not sure about an occasional use building though. And then the trim details... I think doing that amount of work would undermine all the savings on a pole structure.


Quote from: GaryT on January 27, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
Ah, the Tug Hill Plateau!  I lived there for 10 years, near the wildlife management area where I did the research for my PhD.   built this garage myself, with dog kennels (inside and outside runs) for my english setter birddogs.   It was insulated, but not heated.  built really good dog houses inside for each pooch that kept them warm to 30 below (I actually checked that several times).  It was 24 X 36, and I'd do that one again! 

(https://i.imgur.com/I4CB5gP.jpg)

Sorry for the slight hijack, Nathan.
Gary

Nice looking building!
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on January 27, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
I think you are limiting the possible widths of the lean to's  by only connecting them to the top plate of the wall. They can land on the roof of the main structure if needed to gain more height for increased width. Or to put it another way plate height does not have to dictate shed width.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on January 28, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
Quote from: Don_P on January 27, 2020, 10:01:01 PM
I think you are limiting the possible widths of the lean to's  by only connecting them to the top plate of the wall. They can land on the roof of the main structure if needed to gain more height for increased width. Or to put it another way plate height does not have to dictate shed width.

That's a good point. I don't see a specific diagram in the WFCM on how this is typically framed, I'm guessing it is the same way as figure 3.12b for Valley Roof framing detail?

Build gable roof, sheath, fasten 2x or 1x nailer to the sheathing where you want the lean-to roof to land, fasten lean-to roof rafters to nailer?

I do believe I know how to calculate the additional load on the rafters. Would this require additional fasteners at the rafter to ceiling joist connection because of more outward thrust?
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on January 30, 2020, 09:43:54 AM
Sorry to be slow to respond... but I passed the class A cdl test yesterday, woohoo! Our toys have gotten too big to pull behind pickups. My partner tested the day before and was going to drive the 26,000 lb Lull down the road about 12 miles to a job, we have the licenses to drive big trucks with trailers but don't own one yet. Anyway, he made it about 2 miles before meeting a deputy who was nice enough to say "I don't think so. Go back home".

Anyway, here's how I look at the problem when possible. I offset the shed rafters just to the side of the main common rafters, install a ledger up on the roof for the shed rafters to land on, this may be quite wide or 2 boards for that long angle cut. (Mentally, load travels at up to a 45 degree angle, so you are engineeringwise still on top of the common) Then run "kickers", short studs vertically from the wall plate up to the underside of the shed rafters, Nail to the kicker to the side of the commons. Run another kicker from alongside of the shed rafter to the top of the common, nail everything together, it's all well woven then. Face this cripple wall with ply for lateral stability. The shed rafters are now cantilevered over the cripple wall and are simply resting on the roof. At a point you would need to calculate this, thus far I have not... but we can for fun if you would like, there is sliding snow at that transition which affects you more. That point loaded canti load on the main common is not zero.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on February 01, 2020, 11:38:45 AM
Quote from: Don_P on January 30, 2020, 09:43:54 AM
Sorry to be slow to respond... but I passed the class A cdl test yesterday, woohoo! Our toys have gotten too big to pull behind pickups. My partner tested the day before and was going to drive the 26,000 lb Lull down the road about 12 miles to a job, we have the licenses to drive big trucks with trailers but don't own one yet. Anyway, he made it about 2 miles before meeting a deputy who was nice enough to say "I don't think so. Go back home".

Anyway, here's how I look at the problem when possible. I offset the shed rafters just to the side of the main common rafters, install a ledger up on the roof for the shed rafters to land on, this may be quite wide or 2 boards for that long angle cut. (Mentally, load travels at up to a 45 degree angle, so you are engineeringwise still on top of the common) Then run "kickers", short studs vertically from the wall plate up to the underside of the shed rafters, Nail to the kicker to the side of the commons. Run another kicker from alongside of the shed rafter to the top of the common, nail everything together, it's all well woven then. Face this cripple wall with ply for lateral stability. The shed rafters are now cantilevered over the cripple wall and are simply resting on the roof. At a point you would need to calculate this, thus far I have not... but we can for fun if you would like, there is sliding snow at that transition which affects you more. That point loaded canti load on the main common is not zero.

Congrats on the CDL, it all sounds like a lot of fun.

I spent some time thinking about how you're saying to frame this, I started to draw it out in sketchup and I have a couple questions

1)
Quoteinstall a ledger up on the roof for the shed rafters to land on, this may be quite wide or 2 boards for that long angle cut.

I want to confirm you're saying not to do this with the way you frame it, and the width of the required ledger is one of the reasons. That makes sense to me, I just want to double check you're not saying to put a ledger up there in addition to nailing the shed rafter to the gable rafter. That makes sense to me because you frame the shed roof to directly bear down on stud wall below.

2)
QuoteRun another kicker from alongside of the shed rafter to the top of the common

I'm having trouble visualizing this one. When I draw it out I can see that the kicker from top plate to bottom of shed rafter needs to be reinforced. Can you clarify where the second kicker goes? It almost makes sense to me that you'd just run another kicker alongside the first kicker, and up next to the shed rafter to tie it together. In otherwords the shed rafter - gable rafter - kicker #1 has created the triangle, and the one weak point is the joint from kicker #1 to shed rafter.

Thanks... here's the pic I drew, aside from the second kicker I think all that's missing is the sheathing.

(https://i.imgur.com/9MgHzGx.png)
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on February 02, 2020, 08:42:50 AM
I've done similar to that... but... an engineering professor didn't like not sheathing the main roof under the porch roof, you lose a lot of the diaphragm bracing. So I started using this detail, I sheath the vertical cripple wall to brace it as well. I've done those kickers a number of ways all depending on what is framing in, but you see the idea, support and roll bracing of the porch rafter. If you need to get better venting through those layers I use a holesaw in a clutched drill and start poking holes in the kneewall sheathing just above ceiling joist elevation.

(http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/kickers.jpg)

Toenail shed rafters to the ledger if small, use framing angles as it starts getting bigger. If the distance from the kneewall to main roof is relatively short and shed rafter depth relatively great I would look at it as a cantilever situation. As the upper span gets longer and the shed rafter depth shallower in relation it would make more sense to look at it as a continuous beam over 3 supports, then look at the load it puts on the main rafter. Generally I've had the first situation, look at it as hell for stout and called it good. Just be aware of what is going on.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on February 02, 2020, 09:54:17 AM
Don thanks for clarifying, I get the picture now. I hadn't thought about the gap in sheathing on the gable roof messing up the diaphragm. Glad I asked - I really appreciate the feedback.

Also when I was drawing my sketch, for illustrative purposes I had to move the shed roof way higher than it will actually land. I think the kneewall will be quite short, but framing this way would gain enough space to allow me to pull my tractor in perpendicular to the building, which would make the lean-to area way more useful.

I think the next step is to draw some stuff out in plan view to see what I can fit and where.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Dave Sparks on February 02, 2020, 12:09:13 PM
Always keep in mind where snow will land/slide if that is an issue. Good Luck
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Natosha Jacobs on January 04, 2021, 11:18:56 PM
Great Idea.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on April 28, 2022, 09:52:10 AM
  :D

(https://imgur.com/EvJLKkL.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/zrJDfYm.jpg)

That little tractor-backhoe can dig! Some final checks and then hoping to backfill before rain on Monday.

There is an exception in the code for "ancillary structures" that allows a 600 sq ft slab without frost protection. Well, by removing all the expansive soil and backfilling with clean round stone I have eliminated 2 of the 3 requirements for heave. But it's not in the code, so it's not real!  d*

I am really tempted to try to pour the slab with my wife and dad. I was looking at some YouTube's ;) and a super plasticizer appears to take the backbreaking aspect out of it. I wonder if I screwed a few boards together we could screed the whole 20' width at once or better to do 10-12' widths at a time? Anyone want to talk me out of it? My neighbor is cutting all my framing lumber and offered to help, he has done a few slabs and wants me to rent a power trowel.

The plan is a 20x30 main area slab with no posts in the middle, 16' wide garage door (portal framed), 2' of block and then 8' framing for 10' ceilings. Both sides are getting 10' wide lean-tos. I am orienting the ridge mostly East-West with the idea that we will put solar panels on it for a grid-tie with battery backup system. Can't bring myself to put panels on the standing seam main house.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on April 29, 2022, 09:51:30 PM
Having just poured 2 and staring at a third, get the power trowel! My arms were screaming after the first one. I sent everyone home after placing and did the second myself with the power trowel. Yes if he is close and sawing, and can do 22', get him to make a nice straight screed and go full width. You will need a couple of guys with rakes tending that long screed, that's 4 minimum. Rent a bull float as well and used it immediately behind the screed then get off it till the bleed water evaporates and it can take the power trowel.

I was using some poplar framing we sawed today. With plywood prices we're doing diagonal board sheathing. Basically higher grades, if not siding or trim, down to #2 is framing. If a log opens up ugly we start sawing 1x sheathing. A roof allows a minimum of #3 sheathing, a wall can use as low as #4. We tend to be more like a grade above each category and #4 is kindling but that gives an idea of a potential log sort and uses.

You bring up a good point. A prescriptive foundation is based on frost heave potential, as is a frost protected. If someone is in a gravel pit or obvious no frost heave potential, depending on frost depth locally, it may be worth having a geotech look at it in terms of a shallower foundation.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 02, 2022, 04:09:23 PM
Quote from: Don_P on April 29, 2022, 09:51:30 PMHaving just poured 2 and staring at a third, get the power trowel! My arms were screaming after the first one. I sent everyone home after placing and did the second myself with the power trowel. Yes if he is close and sawing, and can do 22', get him to make a nice straight screed and go full width. You will need a couple of guys with rakes tending that long screed, that's 4 minimum. Rent a bull float as well and used it immediately behind the screed then get off it till the bleed water evaporates and it can take the power trowel.

I was using some poplar framing we sawed today. With plywood prices we're doing diagonal board sheathing. Basically higher grades, if not siding or trim, down to #2 is framing. If a log opens up ugly we start sawing 1x sheathing. A roof allows a minimum of #3 sheathing, a wall can use as low as #4. We tend to be more like a grade above each category and #4 is kindling but that gives an idea of a potential log sort and uses.

You bring up a good point. A prescriptive foundation is based on frost heave potential, as is a frost protected. If someone is in a gravel pit or obvious no frost heave potential, depending on frost depth locally, it may be worth having a geotech look at it in terms of a shallower foundation.

Thanks for the tips, Don. For now I'm still planning to do the walls in OSB. I'm going to do purlins for the roof, and for the gable I am going to get the felt membrane on the underside. For the lean-tos I will just let the condensation happen.

Started grading the downhill side today and hydrostatic transmissions are so nice for this kind of work. Hoping I can leave the old shed where it is until the garage is enclosed and I can move everything over there.

Getting one more load of round stone tomorrow to bring the pad up another 4" and then I will be ready to start forming things up.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 15, 2022, 04:18:25 PM
Quote from: Don_P on April 29, 2022, 09:51:30 PMI was using some poplar framing we sawed today. With plywood prices we're doing diagonal board sheathing. Basically higher grades, if not siding or trim, down to #2 is framing. If a log opens up ugly we start sawing 1x sheathing. A roof allows a minimum of #3 sheathing, a wall can use as low as #4. We tend to be more like a grade above each category and #4 is kindling but that gives an idea of a potential log sort and uses.

I've been wondering how many builders are going back to roughsawn board sheathing until lumber prices start to behave. When you say poplar, are you referring to something similar to Aspen? I kinda want to build a barndo, so kicking around the idea of getting a sawmill. We've got over 100 acres of trees, but they're mainly Aspen under 12'' diameter.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 17, 2022, 05:42:40 AM
Don
Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on May 15, 2022, 04:18:25 PMI've been wondering how many builders are going back to roughsawn board sheathing until lumber prices start to behave. When you say poplar, are you referring to something similar to Aspen? I kinda want to build a barndo, so kicking around the idea of getting a sawmill. We've got over 100 acres of trees, but they're mainly Aspen under 12'' diameter.

Don is talking about Tulip Poplar, one of the most enormous and fast growing hardwoods on the east coast. Unfortunately in my area of New York there aren't many of them.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 17, 2022, 05:58:36 AM
Got the slab in! The weather forecast was pretty terrible going into it, but the day before it finally switched to give us until 12-1 PM. We started pouring around 8. The concrete trucks have the shoot on the front and the drivers made it really easy on us. We screeded the whole 20' at once — that is absolutely the way to go for us non-pros.

The concrete guys are also pretty short staffed so they were about a week out, and I was able to get a lot of rough grading done. The slab is on round stone all the way down to hardpan. Around the slab is where I used uphill material to fill and bring up to grade. I expect it will settle several inches over the next few years. This job has already paid for the backhoe attachment.

(https://i.imgur.com/0YOuNKp.jpg)

The remesh was left over from the house, glad to use it up at current prices. Bent the rebar on a steel tube on the tractor loader.

(https://i.imgur.com/GnbfiVP.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/gaNijts.jpg)

Bull floated here

(https://imgur.com/0uY7aUk.jpg)

Then I let it set up until I could put my finger about 3/8 - 1/2 inch and mag troweled the whole surface. I was basically a little early at the start and a little late at the end. Then right away I started steel troweling, again a little early at the start and by the last 50-100 sq/ft I was late, and man that last bit really killed me. If I had time and energy I would have done a second pass, but honestly it came out really good. It's smooth but not so smooth that if it's wet it will be like an ice rink.

(https://imgur.com/WCp1a6e.jpg)

Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on May 18, 2022, 06:35:49 AM
Your hired! Looks good. The saying here at about that point "well, all we lack is finishing". Orchard in the background?

Aspen would be fine, most of the osb sheathing we used up north was aspen chips. It does have design values published for structural use for framing as well. I've used more white pine for sheathing than poplar, just running with what we had, the framing is all tulip poplar, liriodendron tulipifera. With the demise of chestnut, it is the largest eastern tree. The old rafters we pulled were chestnut 2x4's, I've saved them, hopefully for a table or something. This farm adjoins the state forest where there are trial chestnut plantings and crosses going on. I noticed several new rows the other day, that means another generation of backcrosses is being tried.  With the board sheathing it is a stout feeling frame. Code stuff, min #3 on the roof, #4 on walls, it doesn't need to be high grade stock...although #4 is bonfire stuff here, I'm not buying in material so can "waste" a bit more. Oh yeah, pick up more nails on the way, more shots.


Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 18, 2022, 06:12:50 PM
The orchard in the background is Chinese Chestnut, Don. I have another few hundred in air prune beds and pots to plant in other areas as well. It is totally just a fun experiment, but if successful a few acres could provide a decent, relatively low labor, retirement income some day.

The history of the American Chestnut is quite a tragedy. I was a part of the American Chestnut foundation for a few years and the last I read on the back cross program, it's not sounding too good. It's looking like they need 12-14 genes for blight resistance instead of the hoped for 2-3. And while the transgenic wheat gene tree appears to be the real deal, it will be in for a long approval process, if it ever happens.

Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on May 18, 2022, 09:35:53 PM
Have you run across Badgersett (sp?) nursery? He was in with the ACF early but his goal was more towards the nuts rather than the timber. I met him 5... ish years ago while he was travelling through. He claimed he was getting good american nut production. I think it was him... hazelnuts are another neat nut crop.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 19, 2022, 06:03:42 AM
I think his nursery has been closed for several years now. I did try to get seeds from him as he was one of the northernmost growers. My seeds mainly came from Route 9 Chestnut Cooperative in Ohio and the University of Missouri's chestnut orchard.

My Hazel's may be from Badgersett via Red Fern Farm. Some people not too far from me have started processing Hazelnuts into oil.

With doing the garage this year I am definitely not going to have time to expand the orchards into our other field this year. I am just trying to maintain and replace anything that died. I also planted a long strip of Persimmon trees along the road.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 19, 2022, 06:49:04 AM
Also, since it's raining today, I am wondering if anyone has thoughts or ideas for garage/workshop doors.

Standard garage doors are 7' tall — too short for my tractor roll bar and I don't like the idea that I'm a building 10' ceiling that will have those metal track rails down at 8'. Last thing, the standard doors mostly look like they are on back order until 2023 and I'm obviously not waiting that long.

I was thinking of just doing sliding barn doors around 10' x 10'. Only thing I'm worried about there is if snow and ice blocks the bottom of the door from sliding in the winter. Similar concern if I did outswing doors. It looks like I could also adapt a motor to open and close the doors for when I use them.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: jsahara24 on May 19, 2022, 08:10:43 AM
The concrete work looks great! 

As for the sliding doors, I have them on my barn.  My issue is getting them sealed up to try to heat the building in the winter, along with snow/ice building up in the bottom rail.  I am looking to install a more typical garage door in the space that I heat so I can work in the winter with some level of comfort. 

I don't know much about garage doors, but they do make some that stay pretty tight to the ceiling, however I'm sure the cost goes up quickly assuming you can even get them!

Good luck...
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 19, 2022, 09:37:42 AM
I was looking at an online retailer for a roll up door - though I dont like the look — the price seemed ok at $1000-2000 depending on options, then they threw another $2300 or so on for delivery! Insulating that style would also be an issue.

I definitely want to heat with a wood stove in the winter. Also dont want a critter free for all.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: MountainDon on May 19, 2022, 01:39:27 PM
I can vouch for the shortage on garage doors. We ordered a replacement 5 section overhead, 16 ft wide x 9 ft tall door in early January of 2021. It was finally installed in late July of 2021. R18.8 insulation rating and I love it. Stays warm or cool much better than the old one which had some self added foam in the panels. The new one seals much better too. It is such an improvement I am thinking of installing some more solar panels and putting a mini split in there so I can heat or cool as needed.

I like the floor and the orchard to be.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Ernest T. Bass on May 19, 2022, 09:41:59 PM
Just got the garage door installed on a pole barn I built last fall.. took most of the winter to get it. It's an 8' door with a standard track, and I was able to install w/ 9' sidewalls. Tight fit.. only a couple inches to the truss, and no garage door opener.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 20, 2022, 06:15:07 AM
I'm going to have to call around to see what kind of wait times I'm looking at.

I need to commit to the width as the block for my 2' stemwalls is getting here today. I am thinking 10-12' wide by 9' tall. I didn't realize they could be rated as high as R19, that is crazy.

I may insulate the stemwalls eventually, but opted not to insulate under the slab. It can be hard to decide where to draw the line when building - you can always do more. I figured the wood stove will fight the slab either way, and to just get a big stove with air tubes that can really push out BTUs fast. The days in the winter where I will have time to be in there all day are few and far between. Mainly will be a few hours here and there.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on May 23, 2022, 04:58:57 PM
Looks like the wait times aren't as bad as I thought. They are back down to around 15 weeks, which seems way more reasonable than 2023. We decided to do 12 wide by 9 high. This way each side of the door gets a full width sheet of OSB for bracing.

Another thing I'm planning after the block is digging out for the piers on the lean-to. I really want to keep the posts up out of the ground, so it looks like either trench form or slice a 16" sonotube to 8" thickness, pour that with a stick of bent rebar to tie into a 12" sonotube to grade.

I think it is what it is, but it looks like the standard post bracket that goes with an anchor bolt is like $22. Almost as much as the PT post.


(https://imgur.com/GcE693U.jpg)
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on June 23, 2022, 10:33:57 AM
Making progress a lot faster than I did on the house.

I'm getting my money's worth out of this tractor. Digging in hardpan to get the pier footings poured took a whole day. At times I sheared through rock when it was embedded in the side wall of the hole. The backhoe has really proved itself as a tough piece of machinery.

(https://imgur.com/CtxrMzm.jpg)

Using pallet forks to lift the wood walls onto the 2' block stemwalls.

(https://imgur.com/CuiLceA.jpg)

Same trick I used for the house - I made jigs to hold the ridge board in place and then installed the rafters. Safe and easy work alone.

(https://imgur.com/lGHlpSB.jpg)


Now I am getting ready to build the lean-tos. I have a couple questions I'm hoping people can answer about bracing.

Posts are going to sit on Simpson brackets that stand them 1" off the piers and are attached with an anchor bolt. Then the posts will be apx 7.5' tall with a 3x12 notch set into them for the beams I had my neighbor mill for me. They will be attached either with 1/2" through bolts or Thrulok's.

My understanding is that because the garage wall is braced I technically don't need any lateral bracing between the post and beam as the roof diaphragm ties everything together. However, the AWC does have a deck guide - the closest thing to a code guide for a porch roof - and it calls for bracing the corner posts and specifically excludes bracing the middle posts.

https://awc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/AWC-DCA62012-DeckGuide-1405.pdf

Somewhat related question about roofing. I am installing metal panels over 2x4 2' OC purlins. I am guessing 2 or 3 10d nails should be adequate to connect purlin to rafter? Code defers to manufacturer, and manufacturer doesn't say anything other than the roof is designed to go over purlins. For the gable roof I got "drip stop" material to control condensation. Really looking forward to not sliding around on 8-12 sheathing.

Last thing - do I need to brace the ceiling on the interior part of the garage? This would have to be done on underside, as rafters prevent me from connecting OSB to the wall.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on June 28, 2022, 05:57:16 PM
"Load goes to stiffness". Is the semi rigid plane of metal screwed to purlins stiffer than several short diagonals bolted to the midpoint of a flexible post? My bet is the angle braces do not see load until the roof is gone.  

2 nails per bearing should be adequate, uplift is the greater issue, maintain a good load path of uplift connections. A catwalk in the attic or an attic floor, or a ceiling, or diagonal framing on top of the cjs at each corner would all help brace the end walls to the structure
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: NathanS on June 28, 2022, 08:18:02 PM
Thanks for the insight Don.

One thing I've noticed with Hemlock is it really takes a nail. Toenailing SYP sometimes seems to do more harm than good.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Don_P on July 03, 2022, 06:10:58 AM
Cordless drills have really been a game changer for me and tough to nail woods. More and more as lumber prices rise I'm using native stuff that either likes to split or will not accept a nail without bending. I predrill a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: Garage Ideas
Post by: Cassy0110 on September 06, 2022, 11:57:45 PM
do it as much as possible, especially if you have kids, because they have too much stuff