I thought this link might be of some interest to the group. According to the website, the current prototype demonstrates 1500% more "out" than "in".... Although it's not on the market yet it could be something to keep an eye on.
jonesy
http://www.lutec.com.au/
My buddy Einstein thinks this is impossible........
Perpetual Motion?
If he is wrong... I want one! ;D
(http://universe-review.ca/I15-16-Einstein.jpg)
There are three laws of thermodynamics: you can't get something for nothing, you can't win, and you have to lose. The first law says you can't produce matter or energy from nothing; they are conserved. The second says the amount of entropy in the universe can only increase. The third notes that friction exists, so entropy does increase.
Perpetual motion machines are machines that are supposed to disobey one of the laws of thermodynamics. Usually it's the second law that people want to break, reversing the flow of entropy. Entropy is the amount of disorder in the universe.
Why you can't design perpetual motion machines
The second law of thermodynamics isn't actually an axiom. It can be deduced from the other laws of physics. It's an application of the pigeonhole principle.
The known laws of nature are reversible, that is, given a current state the previous state is uniquely determined.
Which implies that if you start with n possible states, after any amount of time you'll still have n possible states.
For every state that looks like something other than heat, there are a zillion states that look like heat.
Therefore any process will map at most one in a zillion heat states to something that looks like work. Almost all of the time heat stays heat. You can't map all the heat states to work states, they just won't fit.
But... This could be wrong..... ;D
This is a bit more than perpetual motion on this one according to some of the information they have supplied. I have read of some of these working in a similar setup and now that I think about it some of the others were possibly drawing off electric currents in the air from nearby power lines.
They claim to have patents also which are not issued on perpetual motion machines if I recall correctly. I guess we'll have to check it out and see what concrete evidence they can provide.
Boy Jimmy, that was really deep- gotta admit I am impressed. :)
Interesting site and a good overview by Jimmy of the basic pessimism inherent in the laws of thermodynamics. (Could an intelligent European Jew working through the two world wars have been anything but a pessimist?)
Personally I think the organizing principal of life and intelligence may be the optimistic opposing force to entropy. But it has yet to prove itself long term.
At any rate...
There is such a simple and dramatic experiment that can be done to demonstrate this motor/generator that, if it really works, the inventors would do in a heartbeat.
Set up a tabletop experiment isolated from all energy inputs and have it output energy that does real work. Invite press and scientific community to watch and monitor what it does. Perhaps offer a prize to anyone who can prove it to be a fraud.
The longer it runs the more interested the world would become... This could be as big as the Virgin Mary in the cheese sandwich!
The fact that this has not been done makes me very skeptical.
For a fun review of energy by a great folk band Moxy Fruvous...http://www.fruvous.com/energy.html
Beware! They do very catchy stuff!
Here's a clip of the song http://www.uky.edu/~holler/CHE107/media/entropy.mp3
They did this as an educational video in Canada
Energy...it's the pulse of life... ;D
A few years ago we had several ads in the local papers trying to get people to invest in a similar endeavor.
The ad showed a very impressive picture of the darn thing.
It turned out to be a scam and took thousands of dollars from many people.
The guys presenting the free energy machine do not want investors.
Could it be a diversion tactic before getting the money disappearing overnight?
IF there was such a thing wouldn't a government agency cause the people involved to just vanish?
Okay...I've been watching too much Sci -Fi Tv
It happens. Tesla's stuff was confiscated. HAARP is in Alaska (based on dangerous Tesla Experiment dismantled by him). ref: Tesla Tunguska experiment.
I'm on this peculiar guy's list--his latest fascination is hydrogen. Which he seems to think can be done with--not sure here, writing's not the clearest--magnifying glass and water?
Soon he will have a video with a guy who has been experimenting with hydrogen boosted cars that can run on nearly anything that can be made to burn with effort. If anyone needs it, I CAN post a link!
Stirling engines anybody?
If I'm reading that site correctly, they're basically claiming that they can make this thing run off of the "energy" stored in a permanent magnet, essentially capturing the energy as it decays. I have nowhere near enough physics to know if that's an interesting concept or even a realistic one.
If that's the case, it's not "free" energy, as the permanent magnets have to be created. It would seem to me that if any of this is valid, the energy it takes to "charge" a permanent magnet is the energy you might eventually get out of the device...and getting that initial charging energy back out over a period of 1200 years (they're claiming). I'm trying to imagine that said energy is enough to power a household for 1200 years...and I'm not suceeding.
I'd love to believe this is viable but the device looks like a "make it shiny, make it complicated, make 'em believe" machine than anything really viable. Why make it so huge? Surely a proof-of-concept machine could be the size of a coke can. And if you want to attract attention and investment, a small machine in a sealed glass box which has been producing energy without external input for awhile would definitely bring it.
The whole thing of requiring a battery pack is very suspicious. Lots of potential blame there for non-performance, and many ways over a short term to hide a lack of performance.
Think about the current devices in the world which use permanent magnets and wound coils: generators, which turn mechanical energy into electricity, and motors, which are what you get when electricity is the input and mechanical energy is the output. They've been under constant development for well over 100 years now and no one has discovered anything like this?
I hope I'm wrong, but it seems like another Joseph Newman scheme to me.
I think you are right Greenbank. I have been doing a bit of researching today and found this. Have a look at the pdf files at the bottom of the page. I think I should have done a bit more checking before posting this one.
jonsey. :-[
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/spoon/2001winners.htm
Entropy is a terrible thing to waste.
To sum it up best: TINSTAAFL (sound it out, it really is a fun word)
A guy was walking down main street around noon one day when he came upon a new diner with a sign in the front saying "Free Lunch: Choose from anything on our menu." Just below these words, in very small print was TINSTAAFL. Intrigued, the man walked in, chose a corner table and pulled up a seat. Shortly the waiter came and asked what he would like. The man asked if it really meant he could have "anything on the menu" as the sign said. The waiter said "yes" and with a lowered voice "TINSTAAFL" just as the man spotted the Twin Lobster plate on the menu. The waiter said while handing him a meal slip "anything you want sir, just put a check next to what you want, sign here and I will bring it to you free and TINSTAAFL(again in a lowered voice)." Excited at the prospect of having two free lobsters, he forgot all about the fine print and checked off the box for Twin Lobster and hurriedly signed the slip. Shortly the waiter brought two of the largest lobsters the man has ever seen and he greedily gobbled them down. Seeing the man was finished, the waiter came over and asked how the meal was and the normal pleasantries were exchanged. With formalities complete, the waiter reached into his apron and handed the man the meal slip back. The man looked at the slip and, at the bottom, saw the words "Thursday 9:00 am to 3:00 pm" and the word "TINSTAAFL" again. Puzzled, the man asked the waiter what this meant. The waiter explained, "That is your schedule sir." "Based on what you ordered and a wage of $10 an hour, you owe us 6 hours of dish washing" Angry, the man says "I made no such agreement!" "The sign says free lunch!" "And," said the waiter "TINSTAAFL" as he pointed to the very bottom of the menu slip. There, in bold ink (still very small) was written "TINSTAAFL: There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch."
Remember guys, if it sounds too good to be true then think TINSTAAFL.
I've always had a bit of a problem with things like the Bent Spoon Award, and in particular the Amazing Randi.
A bit too much "I think it sounds stupid, so it must be impossible!" Or, in the case of the Amazing Randi, "I can fake it so it must be impossible to do straight."
Not necessarily true for either assumption.
Seems like I know someone who was able to bend a spoon after a session with Uri Geller.
If this is true (and it wasn't just someone in the room when a spoon got bent by Geller himself), then the question actually becomes, how does Geller teach these guys to fake it without their knowing that they are faking it? The Amazing Randi has no input on this, as far as I can tell.
Of course there are frauds and phonies and wishful thinkers here. I've never been too much impressed by patents, although I'm always happy when someone I know gets one.
Since one of my rules is never to buy a car in the first year of production, I wouldn't get one of these until after I was pretty sure that the bugs were out.
My impression from the Lutec site was that they were at least returning money people had sent to reserve their machines. Not sure about soliciting investment money.
OK, Now that I've been suitably chastised give me a hug and I'll tell you about my cool tubes.
jonesy. ;D
I'll bite...cool tubes? ???
Hi Daddymem,
You would probably know them as earth cooling tubes or earthtubes. It's a cooling technique that involves burying long pipes underground, one end connecting to the house and the other to the surface outside. Outside air is drawn through the pipes, where it gives up some of its heat to the surrounding soil and enters the house as cool air.
This idea has been around since the 70's and there is plenty of information on the net, most of it along the lines of, "While this concept is theoretically sound" etc. There is not so much on folk who have actually put systems in, Those who have seem to be generally happy with them.
Here is a link to one system in Canada that is working OK.
http://www.earthrangers.ca/our_centre.html
My system is not as large as this but then my building is not as big either. I have decided to go ahead and put the pipes in the ground and if it doesn't work, I will simply abandon it. I have access to a digger and the pipe cost is minimal. If it works as it should, I have free air conditioning.
jonesy.
Ahhhh similar to geothermal heatpump systems where the cool air is drawn in for further cooling in the summer and the warm air is drawn in for further heating in the winter. It should work fine, I know my basement is always nice and cool even on a hot summer day.
That's it Daddymem, although my tubes are bigger than the heat pump system and I'm hoping that it will be entirely passive. I have vents high in the ceiling to expel the heated air from of the house; this should draw the cool air through the tubes. It's possible I will have to put a small blower in to assist the airflow through the tubes. We will see how it goes.
Cooling is the biggest problem in my neck of the woods; winters are mostly mild, rarely below freezing.
I will document what I'm about more fully on the next update of my house page.
OK, now where's my hug.
jonesy. :D
QuoteThat's it Daddymem, although my tubes are bigger
I've always heard that jonsey had big tubes 8)
Mommymem can hug ya for me, she got lotsa cushion for good hugs ;)
Good onya Mate,
I'm off now to hang out the washing, do the dishes and make the bed. Then I'm going to dig some holes over at the house. I'll catch you all tomorrow, stay safe and sleep tight.
jonesy. :)
.pdf file of what is supposed to be the first chapter of the 2005 update of John Hait's book:
I had this loading because of a discussion on another list.
He being the cool science guy with cool tubes!
http://www.rmrc.org/pahs/pahs-intro.pdf
Here's the publications list, including the old book for five cents less.
http://www.earthshelters.com/Catalog.html
The web sites are a mess! But you may get to hear him talk! One of the pages says that he is a gifted public speaker!
John Hait also has stuff out on generating electricity with rust!
http://www.rmrc.org/inventor.htm
http://rmrc.org/rep103/download.htm#rust
Don't give up on the free or near free energy search, Jonesy. My wife says I have a near free, near unlimited source of methane. Now -- what can I power with it. ???
Jonesy, be sure to put condensation drains of some sort on your cool tubes- possibly a way to clean them out with a chlorine soaked swab or something also may be a good idea - you could blow a string through with a compressor or suck one through with a shop vac possibly-- in case of unwanted damp things growing - I would slope them down on one end with some kind of drain at the lowest point because as warm moist air cools it looses it's ability to carry water - therefore the water will drop out in the tubes, but if they are clean this could be your source of fresh drinking water in the parched Australian Outback. I still think it should work seems I heard somewhere they didn't work as good as they should. I think Rob Roy did something like this.
Heres a link on this -
http://www.i4at.org/surv/aircond.htm
How about a cooling tower with a thermal chimney opposite- should work in your area, Jonesy.
http://www.i4at.org/lib2/aircool.htm
If we can't get a free energy machine working maybe one of us can get free air cooling :-/
Hey, Amanda, I was going to reply to your post about Stirling engines the other day and didn't quite get there. It is definitely a source of low cost energy. Since it is an external combustion engine, anything you could burn would power it. Maybe combine it with a small rocket stove to get a clean burn. A friend came over and borrowed one of my books on them the other day. He's a retired electrical engineer and wants to make a small home generator with one. Hugh Piggot's axial alternator would work with one. I have seen a few small ones but never built one. Have you seen any ???
Hugh's site
http://www.scoraigwind.com/
Glad you put that Cool Tubes site up. It does recommend a drain, but it also uses those corrugated plastic drain tiles--that collect water. Could drill holes in the bottoms of each corrugation.
Some other list was going on about stirling engines a while back, so I did some reading, saw a picture or three on the internet--one very old one powering a fan, IIRC.
But I've never seen one in person.
Last night in my wanderings through the alleyways of the Internet I ran into home-built generators--mostly using lawn-mower engines. But a Stirling sounds like it could be a cleaner idea. And maybe not that much worse to hook up than a vertical shaft lawnmower.
Found it--lots of articles, this one a couple down on the left.
http://www.i4at.org/surv/
I wish I had wind power availability.
Scotland sounds perfect for it.
OK -I've got it - a true free energy machine (after the initial $169.00 investment).
If you use a stove with a surface temperature over 390 degrees this stirling powered fan will circulate the air for free.
http://www.thermalengines.com/tech.html
How it Works -animation
(//%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttp://www.thermalengines.com/images/Model1_anime.gif)(http://www.thermalengines.com/images/runningclose3_300.jpg)
Credits from above page
NOTES: Portions of this page reprinted with permission. Copyright, Ken Boak, Information Leaflet. The Stirling Engine Society, Chelmsford, Essex. United Kingdom. www.stirlingengines.org
Build your own Stirling from the above site links. http://www.stirlingengines.org.uk/modeng/modl.html
A few years ago there was a company trying to get on the market with a solar powered Stirling enging generator. I think a couple of people on another list piped up and said--"I'll beta test it!!!!" but then the company decided that SOS solar (PV, maybe not even moderately exotic like triple junction cells) on large industrial roofs with a huge rebate/subsidy from the government was going to work better.
I guess PV and wind are pretty easy but I like to see odd little machines running. A stirling on my stove kicking out a few watts of power with a little generator whenever the fire is going in the winter could help to keep the batteries up on a dreary blustery day.
If you want wierd stuff look into thermo electric generators (giant transistors) there is plenty on the web. I have seen one work off of a sterno can for the heat side and power up about 1KW worth of lights and power tools, but noone seems to be able to produce a saleable product.
Here is a link to a Kiwi company that uses the Stirling engine to supplement domestic electricity supply.
http://www.whispergen.com/index.cfm
Neat concept and design - really interesting system, but a $12500.00 US I may have to wait a while. Still interesting seeing how the technology works. Thanks, Jonesy.
It does let me know that it can be done and gives me lots of dangerous ideas.--if I live long enough to act on them. :)
Cute link to the thermoelectric stuff. Lots of old pictures.
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/thermoelectric/thermoelectric.htm
If 12 K gave me enough power for all my electricity, and I was reasonably sure I'd never have to put much more into the system, I'd find it pretty attractive.
The old Sunflower system--solar powered stirling engine generator was pretty interesting.
Here it is:
http://www.energyinnovations.com/sunflower.html
A modern company doing thermoelectric stuff.
They think that geothermal would be good for the heat source, might someday even be cost effective. Not last week, though. Probably not next week either. But they've got a lot of geothermal stuff to play with because it's an Icelandic company.
http://www.varmaraf.is/engl/faqgen.htm
Interesting links, Amanda. Thanks.
Maybe after my RV garage is done I can go down underground and play with some of this stuff. I have a feeling that the bottom floor of the garage is going to be a nice place to work in during the summer if I insulate it well to keep it cool.
I remember one of my old neighbors was a heating and air contractor, he chained together a bunch of used thermocouplers and installed them on a tin roof to make free electricity.
That device is one of the older bull mooses on the perpetual motion machine circuit. I recall this discussion back in high school physics, and the answer ran pretty much along the lines of Jimmy's explanation, (did we go to different schools together?)
All the flapping about "permanent magnets" is a red herring; there is nothing new or unusual about permanent magnet electric motors or generators.
It reminds me of the old "300 mpg carburetor" chestnut, I have run into at least a dozen people in my life who "personally knew somebody who bought a car at a dealership..", and you all know the rest of the story.
TINSTAAFL indeed, daddymem!
The other stuff, Stirling engines, etc., are real, and very cool!