I have decided to go ahead and purchase the tools I need to install PEX into my beach house project. The "final straw", so to speak, was my wife deciding that she wants the basement in our home redone in a way that requires moving water supply lines. So between the two projects and some other things down the pike, I figure this will be a good investment.
So my question is: Should I purchase the crimping tool or the expanding tool? My understanding is the there are two systems. Is one far superior or is it personal preference? When all is said and done (connections, tools, etc), is one system cheaper?
Wirsbo is the only brand name I am familiar with. Any others to consider?
Thanks,
mt
Glenn has the Wirsbo IIRC.
The Wirsbo does seem to make some sense. Rather than clamp a band use the expander tool and have the joint continually trying to tighten itself. At least that's the theory.
NM_Shooter has a PEX tool too. Not sure what type/brand.
Wirsbo may be difficult to find... they have a training program and supposedly only sell to trained people. I suppose that might help keepupthe quality of the work... ???
When I was looking at the tools a year ago I thought the ones that used the SSC, stainless steel clamps, looked good. The tool did more than one size without needing adapters or inserts.
Lots of PEX info HERE. (http://www.pexinfo.com/)
That is right about the Wirsbo/Uponor. Supposedly only sell to trained contractors -- about an hour or so training. I'm not sure if that is strictly enforced or if they have options.
I like the stretch on as it only tries to get tighter. I don't know how well the other works. Fittings are pretty cheap but I haven't bought much in a year or two.
I have the compression fittings in my camp and they work ok, but if I had to do it over I would use the tools.
I bought the WaterPex crimp tool for about $85. One tool I think crimps 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 inch sizes. I like it. The crimp tool definitely applies a crimp tighter than anything you can achieve with a hose clamp.
http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/potablepexplumbing/learnabout/learnabout_cinchclamp.asp
They also sell a RingMaster crimp tool which uses different jaw sizes for different pex sizes.
Tom
Tom,
That's the type I was talking about; bands made of 304 stainless. One tool, no changing jaws, just different bands for the different sizes of PEX tubing.
Hmmm,
This is going to make it tough. Should I sell my PEX Reddi-Strip Stapler?
http://www.petermangone.com/Reddi-Strip%20Stapler%20Description.php
Or, buy the additional PEX tools. Since I have a long standing history of only allowing
tools to part my company when they are pried from my cold stiff fingers, this
could be strong breach of protocol.
Decisions, Decisions....nice thread guys.
Thanks, folks. I was just casting about Craigslist, looking for PEX tools, and ended up talking with a journeyman plumber who was hanging it up and becoming an inspector. He swears by the Wirsbo expander. He noted, as many of you have, that the physics of expanding the PEX and slipping the fittings into it and then letting the tube suck back around it gives a great fit.
I am interested in hearing what Scott A has to say.
mt
Wirsbo hand expander tools
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=559&brandid=
heads only
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=562&brandid=
and their version of the CinchClamp tool
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=560&brandid=
???
I've never used the expander only the crimp type. Never had any problems with the stuff though it doesn't look as good as a copper job. Use the manifold and home run method to avoid joints in walls. It's a pretty good system but it does use more pipe. I'm doing the cabin in copper just to be difficult since I'm still old school by nature. d*
One of the reasons I'm considering PEX is the available 3/8" tubing. I want to truly minimize the amount of water, hot especially, that runs through the pipe to the fixtures. I know... I'm probably being anal about that. ???
Quote from: MountainDon on March 09, 2008, 11:38:24 PM
Wirsbo may be difficult to find... they have a training program and supposedly only sell to trained people. I suppose that might help keepupthe quality of the work... ???
When I was looking at the tools a year ago I thought the ones that used the SSC, stainless steel clamps, looked good. The tool did more than one size without needing adapters or inserts.
Lots of PEX info HERE. (http://www.pexinfo.com/)
I have the "standard connection method" from Don's link. I bought almost all of my supplies from here: www.houseneeds.com
They also have a tool rental program, but I knew that i was going to want to keep these, so I just bought them. I seem to recall that the crimp tool and gauge were about $120 per size.
So I have both methods in my house... the wirsbo expander type, and the crimp type. Wirsbo was installed when my house was built. I went crimp because I could not get access to the wirsbo tool. I found one on ebay for ~$800 if I remember right, but then I could not get the fittings. I actually think the crimp type provides a better mechanical connection, but I have no evidence.
Don't sweat this decision. It is a fantastic solution. Keep in mind that the connections insert into the tubing, and that they will restrict your flow somewhat, but the 1/2" stuff still flows to my showers great. The tubing also expands and shrinks, so put a little bit of service length in your tubing. You gotta love this stuff. You could do a 300' length with no joints in the middle anywhere. no corrosion. no cold solder sweat joints. stretches when it freezes. If you crimp it, you can heat it with a heat gun and it re-links at a molecular level back to new. It is so fast and easy to use, it easily cut my plumbing time by 1/4. Also available in red and blue so you can easily keep hot/cold seperate. Thermally it is also more insulative than copper.
That was actually one of my favorite part of my addition builds.
Good luck!
(Hey Don... can you get standard fittings to go to sinks and etc. that terminate with the 3/8 tubing? By the time the connector fills the inside of the tube, you are really restricting the flow. The difference in 20 feet of 3/8 vs 1/2 is only about three pints of fluid, but your flow is way better with the 1/2)
I guess I need to sit down and study up on PEX. Never used it but I am thinking hard about using it for my gas lines. Is the connection (Crimp or insert) the same for propane?
Hmmm... I don't know nuthin' about PEX for gas! Is it approved?
-f-
Hey MikeT,
I bought the PEX tools a couple of years ago (crimped fittings) and love them. I have re-routed 3/4 heating lines and they worked flawlessly. The advantage I see is that the fittings are available at home depot, Lowes and other places and the go/no go gauge is foolproof. Just my two cents, but it has worked fine for me. Good luck, Tony 8)
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 10, 2008, 06:27:38 PM
Hmmm... I don't know nuthin' about PEX for gas! Is it approved?
-f-
Maybe not. I was thinking Desdawg mentioned it here:
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3377.msg36580;topicseen#msg36580
But in re-reading it, he only says flexible,
Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 10, 2008, 05:41:09 PM
(Hey Don... can you get standard fittings to go to sinks and etc. that terminate with the 3/8 tubing? By the time the connector fills the inside of the tube, you are really restricting the flow. The difference in 20 feet of 3/8 vs 1/2 is only about three pints of fluid, but your flow is way better with the 1/2)
My RV is completely plumbed with 3/8" PB tubing. (That's the type with issues, not sold anymore). The fittings are inserted into the tubing just like PEX. Considering the applications and the water conservation mode we subscribe to with the RV, flow has never been a problem for us. It might be a different matter if we included laundry machines and/or dishwashers in our plans. Even then, the cabin is for relaxation... nothing in a hurry. :D
HOWEVER, it is more difficult to find fittings, the choice is more limited, sometimes you have to adapt up, so in all likelihood I'd go for the 1/2" tubing. Just expressing my true desires. ;)
Quote from: peternap on March 10, 2008, 07:06:18 PM
But in re-reading it, he only says flexible,
Hmmm. I wonder what desdawg used?
Probably the metal flex gas line.
But that stuff can not be used for penetrations through walls or appliance cabinets. There can be no chance of it rubbing against even a hole in the sheetrock. My neighbor's high dollar house just got shut down for code violations where flex line was used to penetrate through a wall!
-f-
Flexible approved natural gas and propane piping
http://www.gasflex.com/htms/english.htm They call it "Excel PEX" ... it's an aluminum tube coated inside and out with cross linked polyethylene (PEX) So, PEX can be used for propane... but it's a special PEX.
also...
http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/whatis.htm
I think if I remember correctly the material I used for gas was called Tite-flex. Same principle, different manufacturer. PEX is for water. I bought the crimp tools but I haven't used them yet. The biggest selling point for me was the fact that the material will expand and contract rather than burst when it freezes. I will be using it when Spring comes and I get back to the mountains. I didn't have time last year.
I have searched high and low for used Wirsbo expanding tools, and so far I have come up empty. While was was on that search, I was looking at the crimping tools and came upon this option--a mini crimper:
http://www.pexcrimper.com/index.html
This is definitely a cheaper alternative, but I do not know if it is a wise alternative....
mt
I know you don't want to buy new, but think about it. There may be quite a market for a used one. Maybe you could buy new one and then when you are done, sell it on a site like ebay or craigslist? ???
Looks like these people will sell it to you.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Categories.asp?cID=559&brandid=
Maybe you can get all of your stuff there. I can probably get it through the local guy here, but I paid more for the same tool here and had to do the training. The training is no big deal - the instructions cover it and we can go over it.
The manual one is fine -- works fast.
Also note that Wirsbo renamed themselves to Uponor.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 13, 2008, 09:25:20 AM
Maybe you can get all of your stuff there. I can probably get it through the local guy here, but I paid more for the same tool here and had to do the training. The training is no big deal - the instructions cover it and we can go over it.
Do you have any more info on the training. Does it cost much? Is it readily available? Do you have to be a licensed contractor? In Plumas County pex is only allowed if installed by a certified pex installer. I'm guessing it'll cost me at least an extra $2K in labor to get someone to install it for me, so I was wondering whether it's worth getting "certified" myself.
Forget Wirsbo. Just go here:
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/plumbing/pexplumbing/vanguard/vanguard12inchbuy.asp
-f-
Quote from: davidj on March 13, 2008, 04:18:29 PM
In Plumas County PEX is only allowed if installed by a certified PEX installer.
d* I can't think of anything civil to say.....
Uponor has been around for a long time. They were big into PE gasline for underground installation when I worked in the gas industry. We had different sources for pipe but bought the bulk of our fittings from Central Plastics in Oklahoma. At one time I went to their plant in Shawnee, Oklahoma and became certified to do heat fusion. I guess it would make sense for those companies to get involved in the interior piping products as well.
A couple of things to remember about the gases, natural gas is lighter than air so if it leaks it will rise. Propane is heavier than air so it will fill an enclosed space if it leaks. NG appliances operate at 7" water column while LP appliances operate at 11" WC thus a higher pressure. Therefore NG orfices have larger openings than LP orfices which is why appliances have to be converted when changing fuels. LP gas is delivered as a liquid but burns as a vapor. The boiling point for propane is -44 degrees F so at any temperature higher than 44 below zero LP gas is creating the vapor that gets burned in appliances. The more demand (higher btu's), the larger diameter tank needed to provide the surface area for vaporization to occur in sufficient quantity. That is the reason the most common configuration for LP tanks is the horizontal tank. Verticle cylinders have the capacity to hold larger quantities with a smaller footprint but have a small liquid surface area.
That is just a little gas trivia for anyone that is interested.
Yes, interested. ;D
Good stuff desdawg. thanks.
Uponor training was free, but only offered to licensed contractors when I took mine. It was about an hour or two of the dealer showing, telling and making sure I did it properly. Uponor does not want anyone doing it wrong and giving them a bad name. Done correctly it is near impossible to make a leak. I see their point but think it is overkill.
The County / certified pex installer thing is just part of their protection racket. Not really a legit concern. What is going to happen if you make a leak yourself? -- you will easily fix it. I can see it if you are trying to collect money from your services and not certified or a contractor, but for an owner builder, it is only a ripoff to protect their buddies income - or trades people who want job security and will hassle them to get it. No other legitimate reason.
Just riffing off the contractor requirement here. I know that the state of Oregon requires septic system installers to be certified--I do get that!
With building permit in hand and showing that I am an owner-builder, I have been able to purchase items as if I were a contractor--flooring, roofing, plumbing. It does save a little and the level of help I get is far better than if I ask questions at Home Depot or Lowes.
Just sayin...
Well, that is worth quite a bit and there are some things that do require a good knowledge of what is to be done.
I sometimes forget that there are people in the world that can't put water and soil together to make mud also. d*
Here is the dope on the Wirsbo/uponor tools and supplies.
Pexsupply.com will sell you everything and they responded with the following:
The manufacturer recommends that you are certified, however this is not required.
[cool]
Bruce
Quote from: MountainDon on March 13, 2008, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: davidj on March 13, 2008, 04:18:29 PM
In Plumas County PEX is only allowed if installed by a certified PEX installer.
d* I can't think of anything civil to say.....
Same sentiment here.
Considering that putting together a pex fitting is 10 times easier than sweating a copper fitting. And you get a go/nogo gauge to make sure that it is crimped correctly.
What a scam. I get pretty bugged at the county folks. I once looked into getting a general contractor license, (GB2) but since I did not have two years experience in working for a licenesed GB2, I was not elligible to take the contractor's exam. This after completing two owner-build projects. However, if I had pushed a broom for a contractor for two years, then I'm qualified to take the test.
That's kinda funny because around here all you need to be a general contractor is a pickup truck and a cell phone.
Sorry, Scott, but I think it requires a quad cab. [crz]
Quote from: glenn kangiser on March 14, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
Sorry, Scott, but I think it requires a quad cab. [crz]
I think that is only if your helpers are locals. All other imported help rides in the bed.
Here you have to have a contractors license and a copy has to be affixed to the your company vehicle visible from the exterior. Most just photostat a copy and tape it to the interior side or rear window.
Here is a contractors or specialty license - 4 years experience w/test or 5 yrs I think on a license and you can get your own.
Fines for doing work over $500 - used to be 300 -- without a license -- enforced by the courts.
Most companies require $1,000,000 insurance also --which I have to carry to get any jobs.
Tacking somewhat back to the PEX part of this thread:
I was searching on the Uponer web page and happened upon a product that I hadn't seen before and was wondering if anyone else has had experience with it-- The D'MAND hot water delivery system. It is a supplementary heating system that supposedly eliminates the wasted cold water between the hot water heater and the tap...I may have that wrong, but that's what I glean.
http://www.gothotwater.com/D'MAND/
Any comments?
MikeT I am sure technology has advanced in the past couple of years but a friend of mine tried a similar product a few years back which was electric and the results were less than advertised or expected. I think that heater placement and insulation will help to eleviate "cool down" of the lines. Just my $.02 worth.
It is an interesting idea though - you could even Mickey Mouse your own.
(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/metlundpump.jpg)
There's no additional heating of the water involved in this product. The water is circulated through the system to have warm/hot water available at the fixture, rather than run the water down the drain waiting for warm/hot to arrive. This is very much like the hot water recirculating pumps that were mentioned in THIS THREAD (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=4106.msg49053#msg49053).
The distance from the hot water storage tank to the fixtures is what decides whether or not these will save water. It is a good idea in many instances. As mentioned in the other thread some jurisdictions give credits on the water bill for retro fitting such devices.
The D"MAND system seems to use a pump with greater volume than others. This allows the user to activate it only when they want to draw hot water from the distant fixture. The other have timers that the user presets. The pump will run (low volume, low power use) during those times whether hot water is needed or not.
The D"MAND system costs more than the others of course.
These systems are interesting experiments in sales and marketing. In practice however they are of little practical use since the way people use water won't change no matter how fast the hot water gets to the fixture. The faucet will be allowed to run by most people most of the time. I am of the opinion that the simplest solution is usually the best. When you add complexity to a system you are asking for problems. The pumps will fail at some point and need repairs etc.
Quote from: ScottA on March 15, 2008, 01:25:02 PM
... are of little practical use since the way people use water won't change no matter how fast the hot water gets to the fixture.
I disagree with that. That's another of those blanket statements where "nobody" is going to get any advantage from something. That's wrong. Yes, there is no magic bullet, no system that can be installed, forgotten about, work it's magic of hot water there right now, and save you money on your water bill and maybe your electric/gas bill without having to
think. However, there
are thinking people out there and they can and do make effective use of devices like this.
If one really does care about saving some water, it is no more difficult to change your water use habits than it is to remember to turn the lights off when you leave a room. If you are one of those who at the end of a day end up with lights on all over the place, and your porch light on during hours of daylight, a water recirculation pump is not for you. If you install gadgets solely because it's the PC thing to do you're not likrly to reap benefits.
If you live in an existing house with a long under the slab run to the other end of the house, one that dumps 7 quarts of water down the drain before the water is discernibly warmer, you can derive benefits in the form of saving water. (1.75 gallons, that's more water than a single standard low volume toilet flush)
Living in a desert community like we do perhaps we are more cognizant of the preciousness of water. Let's look at that 7 quarts down the drain for no good reason. On an average day in our 2 person household that'll happen three times a day; that's 5.25 gallons a day, 157.5 gallons a month. Some days more frequently. Multiply the number of household members and you magnify the usage.
And that's only if you stand there and monitor the water. If you wander off to do something while waiting there's could easily be twice that or more down the drain. That doesn't seem like a lot of water in the grand scheme of things, but there's a cumulative effect over time.
Here that water is being pumped out of the ground and dumped into the Rio Grande. Not only is it a resource waste, and people have killed over water in the west, it adds to our water consumption bill. To add insult to injury we also get charged for pouring it down the sewer. The sewer charge is actually almost twice the water use charge. So a dollars worth of water ends up with a real cost closer to $3.
Sure it would be nice to live in a home with a better thought out system, but moving/building new would cost us even more. That's not as good an alternative as installing one of the available recirculating pumps in an existing home. OMMV
For sure my pump will fail one day. The supply of water will also give out one day. Or alternative sources will cost more and more.
I agree that for some people that are thinking about what they are doing they could get some benefit from such a system but there are better ways. If you are building new it's even easier to build in water savings. Point of use heaters are one solution. Locating the heater closer to the point of use is another. Another thing I would point out is that when you circulate water you increase the wear on your pipes. I have seen pipes fail from circulation. Usualy it is cause by excessive volocity or over circulation. Another thing you can do is insulate your hot water pipes so that it takes longer for the water to cool off before needing to be moved again. Using a tempeture sensor to activate your circulator. I'll also point out that you can save more water by using a front loading washer instead of a top load. Washers use a lot of water. Getting rid of your dishwasher is another way to save water. Consider a grey water system if you need to irrigate a lawn.
Everything you stated above is true... However, the discussion must be broken into two parts. Part A for new construction and part B for existing homes. If you already have a home on a slab (millions of those in the dry west) that you're living in all the things about positioning the heater & insulating pipes is a no go with major retrofitting costs.
There's no argument that new construction design and installations can be done with an eye to saving water, materials, and water heating costs. But if you you what you got....
With a recirculation pump like the D'MAND any friction wear on the piping would be near impossible to measure. It only runs when you activate it and stops when the temp sensor reads warm water, probably less than a minute in most installations. That would be no worse than running the water down the drain, as far as wear on the hot pipe. Several of the other devices use low volume pumps on a timer set to an hour here and there. With low flow as you indicate there would be little chance for pipe erosion.
Modern front loader washers are the sensible thing to buy when one needs a new machine. I think it makes little sense to junk a working machine for a new expensive front loader. Maybe in a few years as prices drop. Not now.
As for a dishwasher most people I know would rather not give up the convenience, but that's another story. I'm in that group. Ours may only run every three days or so when full. Pots/pans by hand usually.
Graywater systems are useful for those folks with outside irrigation needs, but IMO only useful for new construction. Way too expensive to retrofit in this house of ours for example. Sensible desert dwellers don't have anything to irrigate unless it's food crops. Even them I'm sure it makes economic sense to pour or even drip the water into the ground, especially if you are on a municipal system.
PEX is something else our new home has it and my eyes popped when the plumber pressure tested the system to 250 psi wow but nice to know the system could take it
the house has a pressure reducer where the water line comes in from the street. the line pressure from the street is 125 psi and i have an outdoor hose hydrant on that and is like a mini pressure washer and very handy.
Pex is wonderful
It takes freezing better than anything else, and is OK for direct burial in the soil also.
Kinked PEX need not be thrown away or cut out. Just get out the heat gun and carefully heat it , without burning it until clear. It's memory is retained and it will go back to it's un-kinked state. One of the lessons from the certification training.
PEX will not take exposure to sunlight / UV. In about 6 months it will begin to get fractures like tempered glass looks. In a bit over a year it will break. I experimented with some by my hot tub.
It can be protected with the black 10 mil tape where it is exposed.
I have read that if you use PEX, it is different from copper as erosion is not an issue. You should size it such that you keep flow rates at 10ft/sec or more in order to keep biofilm from forming in the PEX. Faster flow is bad for copper, good for PEX.
Could be a good idea, but I didn't get technical with mine. I just brought a 3/4 to a manifold and 1/2 off of that to everything - mostly home runs to the manifold, because that is what my supplier suggested.
Copper in our highly mineralized aoil only lasts a few years then gets eaten through-- possibly sleeves could save it but not worth a chance.