Glenn's Underground Cabin Update

[MountainDon]

G/L on those.   

[glenn kangiser]

I may need it but there is hope as they came up on voltage and the new desulfator we are checking out may be able to do something. This will be a real test of it.  The ones that are hopeless are the ones that will not pass a current.

I found some good info on what you should see and internal construction of batteries.



from here

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter2/1e.htm

[glenn kangiser]

A friend sent me a link to the paper blog noting outrage at the proposed septic system rules that will mandate testing of good systems and possible $45000 repairs if there is a failure of any part on a system anywhere in the state.

http://www.westcountygazette.com/blog/2009/01/ab-885-onsite-wastewater-treatment.html

Here is a copy of my letter to the state...  I left the typos as I sent it that way to the state ---    ....Oh Well  -They should get the idea...

Criminal Ripoff of Rural California - copy to state and interested individuals‏

State Water Resources Control Board
Division of Water Quality
Attn: Todd Thompson, P.E.
1001 I Street, 15th Floor, P.O. Box 2231
Sacramento, CA 95812


Lets quit pretending that rural California has a septic problem.  Our local health department has been doing a great job with our water quality.  We have no cases of dysentery or cholera here.

As good public servants I would like to ask you to direct your attention to the millions of gallons of sewage that is dumped at sea it the brown fountain of turds from LA and other coastal cities.

This is nothing more than a poorly disguised money grab by the State of California....

....a method  of financing the welfare recipients posing as state officials who have nothing better to do than scheme to steal money from the public they have sworn to serve.  Padding their own paychecks and seeing to it that special interest groups are benefitted by their legislation.

I suggest you divest yourselves of all ties to profit taking from this endeavor.  Time to wipe that greedy grin from your face as the days of big business benefitting from their poplitical cohorts are fast coming to an end.  People are at the end of their ropes as there is little left for you to steal.

You will see that the  rural people of California are getting tired of supporting the parasites they have come to know as "the good ol' boys" running our government
and the time has come to make them walk the plank -- straight into the sewage being spewed by the very big cities they are afraid to touch.

It's so much easier to just pick on the poor defenseless little guys in the country.  Possibly the internet can change that --- before you and your type get control of it too.

I hope you become worried about your very own jobs as opposition continues to grow against you and your criminal ways.

Forget help from your cronies in big business.  We were not impressed by your parrot at the town meeting in Mariposa and were aware that he was a shill by the fact that he stayed and conferred after the meeting with the water board guys who brought him in there.  He needs to work an his act a bit so he will sound a bit more spontaneous.

Do a lot of you have ties to his or other similar companies?  I suggest we investigate that also.  I am requesting an attorney friend look into it further.

Sincerely,

Glenn Kangiser

cc: mailing list

[glenn kangiser]

Another link on the septic ripoff.

http://www.sierrastar.com/103/story/47740.html

and another

http://auburnjournal.com/detail/104673.html

I think my riot is becoming successful.... 

Looks like lots of people want a riot.  http://www.brendancoen.com/2009_01_01_archive.html  Meeting canceled due to too big a turnout....

[glenn kangiser]

I went up and fine tuned the solar tracker this morning, but it had already started moving by about 7:40.  It was fully turned by about 7:50. 

Don't remember if I mentioned it but --- added a bit of refrigerant to the west tube the other night as it was a bit short on afternoon rotation.  I can tell the level of refrigerant - propane in the tubes by feeling the temperature of the tube.  It is colder where the liquid propane is in it.  If at the bottom then it needs more to continue adding pressure -- just like when refrigerant is low in a car --- no A/C in that case.

Since the sun is heating te tube there is a pretty noticeable difference as you slide your hand up the tube.  Don't forget to pull the cylinder pin and make clearance checks as it will rotate automatically.  Mine has spots that are within 2 inches of the roof at the extreme side rotation angles in winter.  I wanted it low for less wind resistance and then made it bigger so tolerances were close.

[Dog]

I love your letter. You nailed it on the head calling it "a well disguised money grab".

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Dog.  Response so far has been good - I got a couple of replies back from my mailing list and it appears that the movement is gaining momentum as reports keep coming back and people are getting more motivated and angrier.

Don't get me wrong - if there is an individual problem, then of course it needs to be fixed, but the gross polluters are the big city operated systems - not the individual septic system in good operating order. 

[steveastrouk]

Thanks, Dog.  Response so far has been good - I got a couple of replies back from my mailing list and it appears that the movement is gaining momentum as reports keep coming back and people are getting more motivated and angrier.

Don't get me wrong - if there is an individual problem, then of course it needs to be fixed, but the gross polluters are the big city operated systems - not the individual septic system in good operating order. 

Hi Glenn,
Just some perspective from this side of the pond.
A lot of septic systems in the UK have been rendered illegal by tightened environmental regulations about the final effluent "quality". Keeping the natural operating principles of the septic drainage field, reed beds are now very popular for final water "polishing" before discharge - and don't clog. For folks who don't want  a reed bed, there are micro sewage plants which are like a septic settling tank, but the final output is dischargeable directly.

Steve

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Steve - looks like they got so many people ready to tar and feather them at the meetings they quit for now and are going back to the drawing board.

The reed bed sounds interesting.

This law was only written to generate money for the state and their buddies in big business.  It did not address the issues and there are very few here in the country - they don't want to touch the cities like LA, Stockton and Sacramento - where these jerks came from.  All of them are getting sewage into the bay or ocean.

[steveastrouk]

Thanks, Steve - looks like they got so many people ready to tar and feather them at the meetings they quit for now and are going back to the drawing board.

The reed bed sounds interesting.

Reed beds are a great idea.
The rule of thumb for a reed bed design seems to be 1 cubic metre (30% more than a cubic yard0 of reed bed per person using the system - so there can be a hell of a lot less digging than a septic field, and they are accessible for servicing if ever necessary.

Steve

[glenn kangiser]

In South America, one of our members said they were using Banana plants at least for the getting rid of the water I think.  The fruit was edible also.  Pathogens do not go into the plant.

[glenn kangiser]

I did not think my letter to the Editor would get published, but today I find that it did.


http://www.goldrushcam.com/2009/mariposa%20news/mariposa_news%2038.htm

I'm such a nice guy.

[ScottA]

Always have to be the squeaky wheel don't you Glenn. You know these engineers have bills to pay too. Because of you some poor guy may have to skip a round of golf.

[glenn kangiser]

I thought maybe they were feeling lonely so possibly they would like some love letters from friends.

I forwarded it to the group south of me - maybe their paper wants it.

[glenn kangiser]

Grid power has been down several times lately 6 hours or more - unlike my unreliable solar power which does not allow me to know when the grid is down.

If only I would give in and hook up to the grid.  Yes - being my own power company does take attention but it has it's rewards.

I went out to throw some heat on to the trough and rotate the tracker during the storm break this morning but --- I got up there and it had already rotated even with low sun.

[Cyric30]

Hello Glenn

I have some questions regarding the P/S/P building method.
but a little info to hopefully help with some the questions.
I live in North Central Ar. in the "foot hills" of the Ozarks
Soil type in my building area is Red Clay. say 80% clay/20% sand, it  might be more or less on that ratio, but i would say no more than 30% sand with sandstone or limestone rocks mixed in to make things funner (it may be fun getting a hold dug truth be told)
temperatures range from 110F in hot summers to 0F in winters, weather is all over the place we had 2 inches of freezing rain 2 weeks ago and now it 70F with rain today, Just about anything you can think of except Lava..Yet
the house will be  on a slop running west to east, east being downhill


First i have read Mikes book and seen the first 2 movies. so i hope im up to speed

1: in my rough concept i had thought of using 8X8 Ceder for the posts and roof spaced 4 feet apart with 4x4 girders how does this sound.?

2: the lumber for the wall planks and roof has be a bit worried. i plan on 8' lumber to be used, but ceder will be to expensive to buy and i dont have enough ceder for much than the posts so cutting more isent a good option. So what size lumber would you recommend for the walls and roof.? would standard store bought 2x4 or 2x6s work.?or what other rough sawed type of lumber would work Pine being most common here and Oak. but i worry about fresh cut drying after it put up i know how ceder does but not any other

3: Termites worry me so i was thinking about using the concrete with re-bar up through the middle to keep the posts out of the ground to give the little buggers less a chance to work.  i heard mike talk about this, But not much on specifics like how big the re-bar should be and how deep the hole should go. also what other percations could i take to keep them at bay.?

4: What size re-bar do you peg the post together with and how deep.?

5: how do you space the post within the interior of the cabin.?

6: i was wondering about size im looking for something to start with about 500sqft so what would be best for that size?

7: the Uphill patio, could this be covered with a roof to for a greenhouse and rainwater catchment system without messing with the proper drainage?

OK that's what i can think of right off the bat...hope you dont grow to hate me Glenn but im fairly set on this method of construction and your the only person Ive found with any know-how first hand exp. of it

[glenn kangiser]

Looked at this a bit earlier but had to leave so wanted to have time to give you a good answer.


1: in my rough concept i had thought of using 8X8 Ceder for the posts and roof spaced 4 feet apart with 4x4 girders how does this sound.?

In the back of the book page 107 start rule of thuimb engineering tables.  These are typical designs and if you follow them you won't build a trap for yourself.  The engineer designed the loading for 2 feet of earth and a foot of water as I recall.  My favorite table is table 2 with 8x8 spacing.  If you have smaller logs thn you can reduce sizes and increase the number of posts, girders and beams as specified. 

In my opinion the engineering only needs to be done once if you are designing the same type structure and that is how Mike's engineer designed these tables.

Look at the sizes on the Table. 

The 8'x8'design requires a 8" diameter post up to 10 feet long.  Go larger if taller.  The girder supports the roof beams and runs from post to post.

The girders are thus, large. The engineer calls out a 12 1/2 inch diameter girder for the 8' span.  The beams run from girder to girder -perpendicular to them. 

The Beams called out on the 8' length are 7 1/2 inches in diameter and as you can see from the plan drawing, they are spaced on 24" centers for this plan.  Note that he  has nominal rectangular sizes there also.

4x4's could only be used in a modified design- they are not listed on the table - rough guess I would say no more than a few inches of dirt on the roof.  Dirt is heavy but this could be done for an emergency shelter - woodshed etc. 

Mike said not to have a cow if your logs were a little skimpy - there are safety factors built in.  He also recommended reducing loading to 18" maximum but in other places has said that 6" would work, so don't think you are stuck putting a foot and a half of dirt on the roof. Mike also now recommends EPDM rather than just polyethylene, but if you can't afford it - poly was the original.  No question that EPDM is superior. 

Borrowing from John Hait, I would recommend extending the liner about 10 feet all around the perimeter of the house.  I also recommend the French drains around the floor perimeter draining to daylight down hill from my own experience and Mikes recommendation. -

2: the lumber for the wall planks and roof has be a bit worried. i plan on 8' lumber to be used, but ceder will be to expensive to buy and i dont have enough ceder for much than the posts so cutting more isent a good option. So what size lumber would you recommend for the walls and roof.? would standard store bought 2x4 or 2x6s work.?or what other rough sawed type of lumber would work Pine being most common here and Oak. but i worry about fresh cut drying after it put up i know how ceder does but not any other

There are a couple options on the beams that can affect the lumber choices.  Note that he shows 3'6" spacing on the beams or 2' spacing.  I would space at 4 feet if on the 8' post spacing and reduce the load a bit if using 2x nominal material or 2' spacing if using 1x nominal material. 

The logs will not always sit level so Mike recommended cutting the boards at each beam if they had a gap under them making 2' long boards usable with no problem - I passed the longer boards over the beams then just cut them over the beam with a skill saw as necessary and shot about 3 ringshank nails on each board each side of the cut.  I like air nailers but they are not required.

The span on 4'spacing would be less than 4' anyway but the reduced load will prevent problems.  Note that 4' spacing would require increased beam sizes - from table 3 of about 9 1/2 " and still we could use the 12 1/2" girders using reduced laoding with no problem.  This would allow the use of 2x material.  Table 4 goes to 10'6" span .  See the tables for sizes.  Again  - the smaller beams on 2' centers allow the use of 1x material. 

Ideally it would be shiplap or t&g as recommended verbally by Mike but we have used straight boards with no problem also.  If wet remember they dry and shrink leaving gaps.  30 lb felt could be good if no ship lap or t&g to prevent the gaps from overstressing the membrane.  Roll building paper or even cardboard could help protect the membrane-  EPDM while more expensive would be much more forgiving and secure from leakage.  Pallet boards could work -- lots of things could work if you don't have the money for more expensive materials.  Ideally you will be able to get good boards.  Try not to deviate too far from the engineers designs.  I did mix some from the different tables to use the materials I had then reduced load as suggested.  Reduce loads also if you have weaker wood than suggested in his book.  It does not mean you cannot use it.  Just use common sense on your changes and reduce loading where necessary.


3: Termites worry me so i was thinking about using the concrete with re-bar up through the middle to keep the posts out of the ground to give the little buggers less a chance to work.  i heard mike talk about this, But not much on specifics like how big the re-bar should be and how deep the hole should go. also what other percations could i take to keep them at bay.?

I also like this method - His wrapping with plastic and charring the posts didn't work -rot and bugs attacked worse in the plastic wrapping, but the pins and concrete under the post worked well.  I use 5/8 or larger pins then a 1" hole drilled in the post to set it on the pin.  I put a square of plastic and a couple inches of wet but rather on the  dry side concrete mix.  This conformed to the bottom of the post well and stopped any damage from bugs or water coming from the ground.  Using this method requires diagonal braing temporarily or permanently until carefully backfilling equally on both sides to prevent shifting - no machine compacting around the house - hand compact only.


4: What size re-bar do you peg the post together with and how deep.? 

I used 1/2 or 5/8 as I had available - 16" long hammered into a like size drilled hole with a 4 lb sledge.  I used a 16" ship auger to drill the holes with a heavy 1/2 inch angle drill. I tried to place the holes to get 8 inches into each log.  They hold very well.

5: how do you space the post within the interior of the cabin.? 

I like the 8'x8' or 8'x 10'6" to minimize interior posts, although with oversize girders and reduced loading I do have one 21" span

6: i was wondering about size im looking for something to start with about 500sqft so what would be best for that size?

Could depend on your land - Maybe 16x 32?  You can use offset rooms - different levels etc to get more windows - light - interest etc.

7: the Uphill patio, could this be covered with a roof to for a greenhouse and rainwater catchment system without messing with the proper drainage?  I have a greenhouse over mine - drainage could still go out the side or to a french drain.

OK that's what i can think of right off the bat...hope you dont grow to hate me Glenn but im fairly set on this method of construction and your the only person Ive found with any know-how first hand exp. of it

Please keep asking - I will do what I can to help.

[Dog]

"Sierra Sun Times" Rocks!

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Dog.  I was in a mineral club with the editor/publisher also and had them over here for the fire barbecue.  It is really helping to get them to spread the word.

1700 showed up in Santa Rosa.

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090209/ARTICLES/902090241?Title=Hearing_underway_to_hear_controversial_septic_tank_plan

[glenn kangiser]

Got this today regarding AB885 septic ripoff.


AB-885‏
From:    The bucks
Sent:    Wed 2/11/09 8:59 PM
To:    glenn kangiser

Glenn,

I received a call from Dr. Mosher (Mariposa County Health Department), today regarding AB-885. It is my understanding that the overwhelming response from Mariposan E-mail has inundated the CSWRB. Even better, other than the extension of time to file complaints and delaying the process in general, Dr. Mosher reported that they (CSWRB) actually decided it best to re-write the legislation and have invited Mariposa County to participate in that re-write.

Personally, I don't trust the CSWRB after this, so I'm staying on point. Keep the guard up, however, it does appear that we are making good progress in Mariposa County at least.

Thanks for all your well written input to the turds in Sacramento who need flushed,

Dennis

[ben2go]

The Troglodyte strikes again.  Way to go Glenn! 

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Ben

Dennis was one of the main ones who got after this after I decided we needed to make noise.  He is also a welder and firefighter.  A good guy.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm planning on building a rammed earth wall around the area where the tunnel will exit into the underground shop.  Since we have lots of water - snow- mud right now I want ot take advantage of it for the wall.  Here is the way I read about to make the straw fibers easier to work with in the mud.  Just take a chain saw and cut alongside of the strings while it is still tied in the bale.  This will make most of the straw about 4 to 6 inches long and easier to spread into the mud,

When dry it will reinforce the clay/aggregate mix much like rebar reinforces concrete.

[ben2go]

Straw bale and rammed earth hasn't caught on the south east.I think it's because of all the humidity and rain.We been lacking rain the past decade and been loosing our lakes and ponds. 

[glenn kangiser]

It's more of a niche thing as there are no real codes for it in most places.  Straw bale codes generally are not real but are in fact just rules to make it into post and beam with straw bale infill or an engineered load bearing straw project which takes away the whole resason for doing it --- affordable housing.  Read that to mean thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in engineering.

When the county strawbale Nazi's get through with you it will cost 1.5 to 3 times the cost of a stick built house and probably at least 10 times what the intent of a straw bale house is -not affordable the code way.