Monitor heaters--kerosine, diesel, etc.

[Amanda_931]

Didn't we look at these about a year ago?

Too big for the 200 sf house, but....

http://www.medfordfuel.com/monitor_stoves.htm

[glenn kangiser]

We have one at our place in the valley.  Super efficient - about 98% or close as I remember -they even recover exhaust heat - run fine on diesel - conservatively heat the house for about $200 per year at current off road prices -

[Daddymem]

Do they benefit from having a less "dry heat" like the pellet stoves also do because of the fresh air intake?

[glenn kangiser]

I'm not sure about how that figures in but the intake air comes in from outside through a 2" tube that has the exhaust -appx 1" tube in the center of it -a heat exchanger - the exhaust is cool enough to put your hand in front of.  Very slight diesel smell outside when running -probably no smell with kerosene.  No smell at all inside -clean heat - no soot- no ashes- automatic thermostat with 2 on times two off times per day - low temp backup in case of power failure- purges air 3 minutes on startup and shut down.  Set min and max at each time setting.

[Ailsa C. Ek]

I pointed these out to DH and he commented that they will also run on biodiesel.  Has anyone out there tried that?  And does that mean we could potentially heat our house with used McDonald's fryolator oil?

[John Raabe]

In many parts of the country oil is a more economical fuel per delivered BTU. It is also true that propane is more popular here in the Northwest but oil delivery is pretty available as well.

Here is a freestanding oil stove that I have been thinking about getting when I get tired of moving chunks of wood three times.

• PDF brochure: http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/Brochures/OS10_OS11.pdf
• Review: http://hearth.com/ratesingles/rate955.html
• 16 page installation manual (PDF):
http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/Webshare/installation_manuals/Savoy_OS 11.pdf

[keyholefarmhouse(Guest)]

Glen:
What is the low temp back up on the monitor stove.
Also, can you differentiate between stove oil, kerosene, and diesel?
Howard

[glenn-k]

The backup is for after the power has gone out and you have to re-program the timer - its a mechanical slide switch that will maintain your temperature at a preset minimum until you re-program the clock - about a 5 minute process.  Clock set plus 4 time and temp settings -fairly intuitive - only have to attempt retraining my self a couple times after a power out.  This unit does use a little 120 v power for the purge fan and blower.  It is the best heater we have ever had.  You can set heat to go down at night -on before you get up - down after you go to work-on before you get home and down after you go to bed.

Not sure on the exact specs of stove oil - diesel and kerosene except that I'm pretty sure the kerosene is a bit more refined to burn cleaner.  This unit works well on #2 red diesel -no road tax on that so it is cheaper - I have seen outrageous prices on kerosene in stores - not sure about in bulk.  We have been using ours for around 7 years if I recall correctly with no problems or maintenance except to change the diesel filter at the tank.

I took some photos of all the major portions of this heater with the new camera - I'm starting to think you can't take a bad one with it--  I'm at the house in the valley  where the heater is now - dial up connection so posting them will have to wait until I get back to the underground command complex.

[glenn-k]

Ailsa, the only thing I would be concerned about with the biodiesel is that you go to the more advanced processes of making the biodiesel - that it's viscosity is similar to at least #2 diesel then I am pretty sure it would work -no problem.  

I say this because a friend uses biodiesel in a Ford diesel pickup -sometimes it congeals in his lines a bit -I don't think he refines it enough and the truck gets very hard to start.  This would be a problem as this heater uses gravity feed to it then a small pump to go to the burner.  Air must be purged from the lines initially or it won't run - clicking sound from the pump if no fuel.

[Daddymem]

They run kerosene or oil...can you alternate as is, or are there components that need to be changed out like propane/natural gas appliances have?

[Amanda_931]

I don't know (probably some kind of difference between fuels, maybe not as much as between Natural and LP gas).

But I discovered this last night--it would be particularly interesting to me if it works on flow instead of Pressure which it kind of looks like it does.  On-demand Kerosene hot water heater by Toyotomi.

http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/OM-148.html

[glenn-k]

Nothing to change on the Monitor - it does list diesel in the book if I remember right - we run number 2 diesel as is.


The Monitor is made to go near an outside wall -the heat exchanger/exhaust-intake goes through the wall.


The manual minimum low setting and pump primer is on the side.


Heat exchanger exhaust and fan looking from top down in back of the Monitor.


Programing panel on the front - top right corner for easy access - you can set manual temp from here and return to automatic program easily.


This is all that sticks out the side of the house -the large intake pipe is about 2" dia.  I think there is a longer distance optional heat exchanger pipe available.

[Amanda_931]

It looks very nice.

And the top remains cool enough that you can keep pictures on it.

(there's been a discussion on another list that not using outside air can sometimes be a good thing because it keeps ventilation going in the house--somebody noted that one pre-electricity way of keeping air moving in the Deep South was to put a small fire in an upstairs fireplace)

[glenn-k]

This one has 2 fans so outside air is used only for combustion and purging -- never a pop or explosion, but almost all the heat from the exhaust is recovered as the intake air in the outside pipe is swirled around the smaller exhaust air pipe.

This is Japanese technology at it's finest.  It's not central heating  but placed in the right location in the house it does a very good job.  That house is about 1800 square feet.

[Chuckca]

Very nice...!  Brings back old memories....when I lived in Yokouska, Japan and Naha, Okinawa....no centeral heat there...

Can you give us an idea as to make, model and cost.  

Thanks

[glenn-k]

Mine is old - a 441 Monitor - From Amanda's link above I see the new equivalent is the 2400 and list on that site is $1579.00  -I paid $1750 getting a deal from a friend - ouch -  - actually list then was $2000 or so.

From the site - cost of heat stats -- I agree -- up to 2000 sq ft heating ability  but they have a smaller one.  The cost of electric heat would pay for your Monitor and fuel in the first year.

[Chuckca]

Here the "Monitor" website:

http://www.monitorproducts.com/monitor.htm

[Daddymem]

How good is it at circulating the heat around?  I read one guy's site slamming the monitor, and pushing the Toyos...something about the control panel costs an arm and a leg if IRC.   The heaters run less than $1500 Here are some sites from my searching:
Monitor:
http://www.medfordfuel.com/monitor_stoves.htm
http://www.alsheating.com/MonitorHeater.htm
Some Prices here:
http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/HeatingProducts/RoomHeaters/monitor/monitorheaterslineupindex.htm
Toyo:
http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/LaserVentedHeaters.html (that 60A looks nice)

Of course you still need a tank, piping, installation, and perhaps a pump if you can't gravity feed.  I'm really interested in the circulation of these.  They do have models that should heat the size of our house, but I wonder about circulating between floors and if my vent and fan idea would keeps us warm wherever with one large central one, or would a few smaller ones be better.  

[Amanda_931]

I expect that that all forms of heat will be up this winter because Natural Gas has at least doubled.

It's a nice clean fuel, I gather that a lot of people are trying to switch to it for that reason, but we're starting to import it, still having to build the tankers to carry the stuff, not to mention ports where they can unload.

I wish I were handy enough to think of methane digesters or the hydrogen boosted stuff.

[glenn-k]

The Monitor has a pretty healthy fan on it - how it is positioned to blow the air is pretty important.  You can enhance the circulation by ducting the cold air from a distant room back behind the monitor -that will pull the cool air into the heater from behind and the warm air will find it's way to the low pressure area created at the far side of the house.  Shutters may be necessary behind the heater to make this most effective. Use something like flex duct or  possibly you could duct through between your floor joists.

I am not familiar with the other brand.

[glenn-k]

After reading Al's editorial on the Monitor I feel that the Toyo would be a better choice.  Al seems to be the kind of guy that tells you how it is.  I probably just ended up with one that is better than average.  I still haven't had  problems with mine.  

If considering the Monitor I would suggest checking this out - thanks for the link, Daddymem.

Monitor Editorial by Al

Al claims that the 441-442's were the start of the quality decline in Monitors and new ones are as bad or worse- parts are inferior and repairs cost double those of the Toyo.  He claims he makes the same on either-  that doesn't mean that the company didn't do something to tick him off- but  I would research it well if spending that much money.  He also mentions that there is nothing that will touch the efficiency of these types of heaters.

Not Recommended by Al

When a guy gets that detailed on the whys and wherefores it seems he would know what he is talking about. I also have questions about the knowledge of the guy who sold me mine.  Once again -no problem with ours over  about 7 or 8 years.

[Daddymem]

Thanks Glenn.  I read his stuff and that is why I was leaning towards Toyo, but being ignorant on these I didn't want to peddle his rant tooo much without objectivity.  We are having a guy price Toyo for us but he said he wouldn't sell it to us unless he found someone local to service it.  He says they need maintenance yearly.  Anyways, we are pricing out the different heating options as follows:

Toyo kerosene/oil heater
Forced hot water-Euro radiators (ouch expensive)
Geothermal Heatpump (we already need a well anyways)

Anyone know anything about those Hydrosil electric heaters they sell in Yankee Magazine?...oh wait most of y'all ain't yankees...Here.

Any other "non-space heater" we should consider? (Pellet stoves are considered space heaters)

[Daddymem]

ROFL...got an estimate from a geothermal place...$17,000 for a system....riiiiiight  

[glenn-k]

You may want to ask the Al character about the Toyo too.  He's up your direction,  Yearly maintenance seems odd- maybe true.  We have done zero  maintenance on the Monitor except change the filter on the tank when it plugs.

[Daddymem]

I've heard..."warnings" about that guy, we'll leave it at that.