Great property, how to deal with snow..suggestions

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

We are looking at some property that we love!!!  It has amazing 270+ degree views and it is 20 acres.  Only one problem, it is 1 mile off of the freeway (away from plowed roads) and our 1 mile driveway would need to be plowed by yours truely (the road is nice and solid with put run rock so it won't get messy and muddy, just needs snow removed occassionally).  The property is on a ridge and it would be subject to some drifting, DH is talking about buying a small dozer (but that much $ for a couple weeks worth of snow storms seems a little steep!)  I wondered about a snowplow mounted on a skid steer or something like that.  It is possible we'd get 2 ft dumped on us in one night.  According to the data in the area it is possible to get 3' accumulation over a few weeks. 

Anyone else dealing with a semi-seasonal building location...this would be our full time residence.  How would you deal with snow removal?  It really isn't too bad, we are just thinking worst case cenario here.  Most years they get maybe a foot of snow here and there and nothing more.  Some years it stacks up pretty good.  Just depends.

Anyway we are working on seeing if the land is even buildable, checking in with zoning and then we will have to deal with the tribal planning dept as well.  My Dh has a great working relationship with the tribe officials and we'd much rather deal with them than the county inspectors.   Dh is in construction (excavation). 

We recently got debt free (except our mortgage) and are hoping to find a way to balance life a little better with a smaller mortgage (or hopefully none at all) and building the home ourselves.  We are just finishing up an 8 year remodel on our current home (new wiring, sheetrock, siding, kitchen baths, you name it we did it etc)  What a great learning experience!

I have been following this site for a while and really like all the owner-builder projects going on here.  Great plans too!  Hopefully someone can help us weigh this out and see if we can hack being so far up in elevation.

[rick91351]

Welcome   

Where are you at?

Snow indeed is a problem and all that goes with it!  Matter a fact we are faced with the same problem when we decide to retire and build on our mountain property so I have been thinking it over as well.  So this is the best we have found.  And I hate to sort of go this way but there are a couple options that I have seen that work.  If you are into that much snow a small crawler like a D2 or D4 is so cool with a till blade.  Or you can leave your rigs at a place i.e. a country store or make friends with the neighbors near the road and you can make the trip on snowmobiles back and forth.  One mile is a very long way to plow and there are a lot of other things to think about as well.  i.e. Fuel and up keep of machinery.  Or keep an eye out for a old pick-up / truck / bronco / blazer with a snow plow.  This is a good solution but you have to stay on top of things  when it storms.  You have to be chained up and ready and plow and plow till it is all over then when the wind starts and it starts drifting then you plow some more.  Problem with this is you have to get rid of the snow some where.  So you have to try and keep things opened up real wide and this causes more chances of big drifts so keep plowing.  Or check around and find some one that does this and pay them so much a month to keep it open.  Most likely the cheapest in the long run.   

That is the options that I see others use near our property in the mountains.           

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

My DH also thought the dozer with tilting blade was the best option.  One mile is a long ways to plow like you said.  I could just picture DH up ever couple hours making another pass to keep up with it.  I'd probably be trying to keep him from going out to plow so he'd get snowed in!!!  The kids and I would love having him home for a couple days!  We like a challenge and it isn't like every year would be the worst case scenario just a few winters or severe storms here and there that  might really challenge us.  Other times it is ok to just be snowed in for a couple days (we hunt, can food, and always have a well stocked pantry even now.  We use woodheat so if we lose power at least we will have warmth and good food.  We can break out the karosene lamps for evening light and wait for the power to come back on.  We'd have cell service pretty much for sure, (there is a tower withing sight just a few miles away.)

We are located in Eastern Oregon, planning to build at 3500 ft if this land deal works out.  We have been very close to a couple land purchases in the last few years but nothing seemed quite right and all too expensive within 10 miles of town.  This property seems to be a good fit so far.  Depending on what the local officials say about buildability and well depths etc.  We are praying for good news from all fronts.

It is exciting and also really scary to think of being that far out of the way...no neighbors around.  But honestly that is exactly what we wanted.  I guess the comfort of neighbors for safety and the nuisance of neighbors cancel themselves out right?! 

We had thoughts about that idea of snowmobiling in and out.....but how do you secure the snowmobiles by the road?  Build a portable shed on skids or a trailer to keep them dry and locked?  I was exploring the option of one of those used snowcat type things, that have a small plow on the front.  You could plow while making the treck to the main road? It just might not have the power to plow deep stuff.  Anyway thanks for the reponse, would love to know how others have dealt with the snow in their situations.

Julie

[rick91351]

With a crawler you should not have to plow all that much.  The plow vehicle is a lot more proactive.

You say you are looking a mile off the freeway; and in eastern Oregon.  East or West of Baker City?  We live near Nampa but our mountain property is east of Boise and north of Mountain Home.  

We really have a good thing where we are at.  There are a lot of places we could leave vehicles if need be.  And could leave a snow mobile as well because they are on friends ranches near the main road.  Just leave them with their machines and give them a set of keys.  Or we can always leave them with the people that own the store http://s254298853.onlinehome.us//y-stop/y-stop.htm

     

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

It would be located around Cabbage Hill/Meacham area.  I am thinking the idea of paying someone to clear the drive is a good one!  And if there isn't someone who does it for those in the area (lots of full time residents scattered in a 5-10 mile radius)...then maybe DH should start a winter business!  Chaining up flat lander trucks for a fee and plowing for people. LOL  What do you know instant supplemental income! lol

I think we will just take a drive up there over the next few weeks as each storms hits and see how deep it gets and how intimidating it is. lol  It is only about 35 mins from our house which is south of Pendleton.

I personally really like some snow, I can't stand it when we get the inversions here in town and everything turns grey for weeks and cold (and when there isn't any snow it is really drab around here)!  Grey days make me tired and blue.  I'd rather be above the fog line, many times we'd be freezing cold here and you could drive up in elevation and get above the fog and it would be 40 degrees and sunshine!  I want to be up there!  On the other hand we can have 40 degree weather here and up there is it could be bitter cold.  Hmmmm.  Oh well.

Thanks so much for the replies so far.

[poppy]

I would think about a tractor with a front end loader.  I would think that with 20 acres there would be multible uses for such a rig all year round.

[MaineRhino]

This works for us!




I think a 3/4 ton plow truck with a 8' or 9' wide plow would work fine. I've plowed many 2' or 3' drifts and deep snow without a problem. It's also much warmer than an open tractor!

[MountainDon]

I wish you lived closer MaineRhino. I'd like to see that tracked Rhino work in 2 feet of powder with uphill grades. Really curious. A lot of our snow seems to be quiye dry; doesn't pack well.  It's looks like a fun machine any way you cut it though.   

[Redoverfarm]

The secret is multi-use vehicle.  Meaning that you can utilize it in all seasons.  I have a 4 WD 50HP tractor that I mounted a truck blade to the front in addition to the regular bucket.  With two pins and a short section of chain it is either off or on.  A straight bucket is sort of cumbersom in that it will not lay the snow back and you will have to occcassionally use the bucket to get rid of what you pushed ahead.  With an angled blade you and continue to push and lay it over.  I really don't like the back blades because you are backing up while trying to push and after a short distance you get really tired looking backwards.  You can shop around and find one with a enclosed cab if you really want to get comfortable while you work.  But then in the summer you will roast with it unless it has air conditioning.  The tractor would also benefit you in the summer as well with additional attachments to assist you in tending to that much land.  Of course you can achieve the same with a 3/4 ton 4 WD truck. But it is hard to pull a brush hog around the fields with a truck or plow up a garden.  

[LeoinSA]

In a previous life I lived outside the little burg of Touchet - west of Walla Walla about 20 miles.   Most winters we'd get a foot of snow and some two or three feet.  We had a few acres and a 25 HP Kubota 4WD tractor. Typical implements - disk, plow, brush hog, front bucket and most useful for the snow was the rear blade.

I'd put the blade on in November and when the snow flew all I had to do was get the damn thing started 

Although I did not have a mile to plow - only about 150 yards - it was on a hillside.  As long as I was able to get to the snow while it was fresh and not partially melted, the snow flew off the angled rear blade like butter sliding off a hot knife.

Sure, it was cold as I was actually running the tractor, but once the snow-paks and the insulated Carharts were off and my butt snuggled up to the wood stove it was all good.  Now, 25+ years later I'm quite pleased to say that for most of the winter the worst I have to worry about is bringing the potted plants when the temp dips below freezing - like what's coming at the end of this week.

However, I do not envy you buying land in the the area you're considering because of the snow, but it is better than a bit further east at La Grande and Ladd Canyon - now that's a nasty place in winter!

Sure don't miss snow tires and chains.  Good luck to you.

[i wish we were up north]

We currently live on a small farm in SW WI and use an ATV (Yamaha Grizz 600) with a 5' blade.  This has worked well for us these past 2 years.  The 12 years prior we used a shovel (or 3).  I don't miss that!! 

You may want to check with the county/township, when we lived in the far NW corner of WI in the late 80's & 90's, they plowed your driveway for $35 a YEAR!  It was such a great deal.  Shortly after went to $50/yr - we still could not write the check out fast enough.

They did it to generate money for the local towns & county.  Primary and secondary roads first, then residential,  but since we were the only ones on a dead end "town" road so we got done right away.  Ahhh, I miss that.

We've never seen where it has been done anywhere else, but you may want to ask before investing a bunch of money.  No one told us they did this - - it was a notice in the local paper.  The locals took it for granted because it "had always been done that way".

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Well we are still gathering more information.  I talked to several people that live up there.  One said just a little higher in elevation a few miles away they have been known to get 5' of snow on occassion!!!  She said the last few years have been fairly mild with a couple feet then melt off and more fresh snow etc.  She said they have a backhoe they get the snow from their driveway with but they don't have a mile long driveway either. lol

We will likely drive up again tomorrow to see how it looks.  I think they got some more snow this week with all the rain we had here.

We might start out with a 4x4 chained up with some weight in it and a snowplow and see how the first winter goes.......then worry about more serious equipment from there. 

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I finally got the pics of the land uploaded onto photobucket.  I thought I would ask some of your more seasoned builders a few things.  This property is on a ridge top pretty much, the terrain is gently sloping with some rolling to it.  The day we were there the wind was blowing from the south and it was 45 degrees.  There was about 0-8" of snow depending on where you were.  Now most of the time I believe the wind blows from the west to southwest here. 

QUESTIONS:  What are the risks and advantages of being on a ridge top?

My thinking says it would be a great place for a wind generator situation/solar panels, and satelite reception because there is nothing in the way!  Also the star gazing is absolutely fantastic!  My fears are damaging wind speeds and lightning strikes.  With that info in mind....how can we built/orient the house and barn/shop to withstand the snow load and wind speeds?  DH suggested a 120 mph wind rating.  We weren't sure how they figure snow.  We will be doing a metal roof to allow the snow to slide off easier.  This is the house plan we are thinking of.





Here are some pics of the land to give you an idea.
Looking north from the southwest corner of the property.

View towards the west...
view zoomed in a little. 

This is the beginning of a draw. 
View to the east


There are 20 acres.  Anyway suggestions would be great.  One of my main concerns is how to tie down secure the wrap around porch for high wind situations.  I think we were thinking sonitubes deep in the ground with brackets set into concrete and generously tied down posts....and rafters tied into the posts with heavy duty brackets as well.  would that be sufficient?

I am hoping when we go up tomorrow it will be clear and we can see how windy it is too.

[Squirl]

QUESTIONS:  What are the risks and advantages of being on a ridge top?

My thinking says it would be a great place for a wind generator situation/solar panels, and satelite reception because there is nothing in the way!  Also the star gazing is absolutely fantastic!  My fears are damaging wind speeds and lightning strikes.  

I went looking for the ridge top for these exact reasons.  Great access to the south facing sun for passive or active solar or green house.  I have the best cell reception in the area.  My neighbors are always coming up to my land to get reception and also check on my property if I'm not there.  I also get excellent radio reception.  Also, most small wind maps show that there is good wind on top of ridges and almost no wind in valleys.  If you are looking for good wind generation in mountainous areas, on top of the ridge is the best place to be.  Also you don't have to worry about flooding or flood zones.

Many people overcome the wind issues in living by planting dwarf evergreen trees, such as spruce and pine, around their house to block the wind.

[Squirl]

Sorry, I forgot to list some of the con's. In my experience... There usually aren't paved roads and access can be a pain.  There also isn't usually power lines to the properties or power even close by.  Not sure if it is better or worse for drilling a well.  My assumption would be worse, but I'm not a geologist.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

ya we likely won't need a phone land line.  Saves us some $ there.  We haven't seriously thought about wind generated power yet, since we don't know how feasible it is (we just liked that it was a good option).....there is a guy way down the mountain who has a small wind generator and I noticed his is laid down right now and he has had problems with lightning stikes.  He put that in about 7 years ago so maybe they have better units now?  

With it costing anywhere from $14000 to $44,000 for power to be extended to the property we might want to seriously look into the wind/solar option.  At this point we were planning to put in powerlines though.

We really love the property, we just keep thinking maybe we are insane for thinking of living on a ridge top in the snow zone...since not many people do it around here.  Or that maybe there is a reason other people don't and that we'd be naive to think we could build there.  From checking out the trees on the property it doesn't look like they get really high winds often (the trees are well balanced in branches on all sides and they aren't leaning at all like they get viscious winds or anything).  Not sure if that is an accurate indicator but at least I was trying to look for signs of prolonged high winds.  I imagine with the severe thunderstorms we get there it would be really loud up there and we might get scared a time or two if it was an intense storm but I really LOVE the excitement of storms like that (at least I do on the lowlands).  We have been high in elevation in those storms before and they are even more impresive you just feel pretty vulnerable in a rv or tent!  The best part is we'd get to watch for hours as the storms come our way, it will be God's  special light display for us!  I doubt many storms would sneak up on you there since you can see so far in every direction.  So we might have time to prepare for a storm, stall horses, gather chickens etc, batten down the hatches so to speak.

[MountainDon]

Our cabin is at the top of a ridge, although surrounded by lots and lots of tall trees, 55 to 65+ feet. The trees are problematic for wind power, we'd need a 100 foot tower to get above them and that prospect is daunting because of the density of the trees. The TV reception is great though. We also get good cell phone signal strength. You likely need to spend some time up there to see what direction the predominant winds are from. Our happen to be south to north or vice versa which worked out fine for placing the windows to take advantage of the breezes and providing the best views. Even with no trees a 30 foot tower at minimum would usually be required to make the most of the wind.

We get lots of lightning when it rains. Having spent years trekking around the mountains of the west we are well versed in what precautions to take. We go inside the cabin when it lightnings up there. Our PV system is well grounded as is the metal roofed cabin. I don't worry about lightning if I'm inside. If we hear lightning around us we move indoors, even if it is not raining or lightning and thundering right where we are. We've had two strikes near us (100 foot distances) when we've been on our property, tall trees are magnets for lightning. There is evidence in the forest around us of many strikes at other times. It's just a part of life in the mountains.

Your county may have the best info on snow and wind loads. Then again they may not.

Primitive dirt roads, $55K to connect to the electric company, a well here would likely reach 600 feet, maybe deeper.

[MountainDon]

A metal sided and roofed RV is actually a reasonably safe haven in a lightning storm.  Many think it's the rubber tires that offer protection but that it not it.  The shell keeps the lightning on the outside. Just don't be touching a metal window frame while inside.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

The good part is that this land is only 1 mile from the freeway!  Which is always maintained of course.....and there is also a old hiway should there be a wreck on the freeway blocking traffic.  We are only concerned about that 1 mile of driveway, about 1/3 of the drive is some curves with nice trees (dormant now, with some evergreens mixed in) it makes for a really pretty drive way...then as you get closer to the property you are on the ridge and I imagine there would be some drifting.  We might be able to plant some evergreens to make a natural snow fence of sorts to have some impact on where the drifts develop, but that will take a while to grow. 

We figure if the freeway is really bad, we won't be going anywhere. We are very much home bodies anyway (as far as the kids and I).  DH will have to travel for work but he is used to all this weather (he drove over this mountain for 1.5 years 2 times everyday).  This will be a very small section of the same road and it isn't the more dangerous stretch either which is good.

[bayview]

   A front end loader (a mid size tractor with bucket) would have multiple uses on your property.  Usually you can purchase a pretty good one for $5-7000.00 . . .

   Later on you might purchase some attachments - mower, maybe a plow . . . 


/

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

DH wondered about a snow blower on a tractor.....I worried about catching a rock and there being frequent repairs needed?  I agree a tractor would be more useful year round.....but we may just need that pushing capacity of a dozer should we get 18" of snow in one night.

Here is our latest issue to overcome.  Ice on an outsloping turn!  Yikes.

Here is what was waiting for us when we got there.


We are praying for good news from the planning commission, DH is going to call a few contacts in the office to see what the likelihood of being able to build would be in that location. 

[rick91351]

With a mile of road if the snows return to your area you are going to need a crawler.  Right now and if it stays this way as it has been for the last bunch of years a tractor with a blade and a front end loader is worlds of plenty......but if the snows return coupled with the winds that just will not work.

Question:  Could you just lease from your father a crawler in the winter time.  Or you buy one and lease it to him in the spring, summer, fall?  Or does you family know any one that might.  Seems to me all you really might need it for is the winter.  However there could be a few of them sitting around in the Pendleton / Hermiston area in the winter when the jobs slow down for winter.  A buddy of mine was telling me that they are going right now for scarp prices.  I really have not looked.  Mostly likely I will have to put off buying until the prices come back up and I cant afford one.     

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

You really are brilliant!  If we got a good quality dozer, it is highly likely we could find someone to lease it during the summers to help pay for the cost of buying it.  It is also a possibility to lease one from family members who already have one.....but we do stay working most of the year (or that is when they schedule all the repairs on equipment) so there is slim option there too. 

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Well Dh talked to the planning commission with the tribe and they said they were doubtful we'd get approval to build there # 1 we aren't tribal members, # 2 that piece of property is kinda the gateway between the tribal land to the south and north.....and there are a lot of wild horses and big game that they want to preserve the grazing areas for etc.  So from what they said we have a nill chance of ever building there.  We also realized that the deed does not guarantee access and that the land is landlocked by the tribe, not a real promising siutation to be in. 

So our search for land continues.  I really liked that area and the terrain and the views so we might have to consider something else nearby not on the reservation I guess.  It is hard to find something decent that you would want to build on and something that won't break the bank either.

[rick91351]

Wow if it is tribal issues you best keep on looking.  But don't give up!  At least you have some ideas on paper.  You also have a start on understanding solar / wind power.  I feel we all should plan at least a little that direction even if on grid.  I don't like the prospect of computer attacks on our infrastructure, much less the economy doing a royal dump.  If one has a certain level of sufficiency life just got a whole lot better.