yeah sometimes there is not enough distance to put between you and family..I have not talked to or seen my mother for 10 years and good riddance as far as I am concerned....I know she lives in North Carolina somewhere???

Distance can be your friend sometimes....I get on well with my dad... but not if I lived next door to him...He would drive me nuts I think...I like living 1800 miles away and calling him 3 times a week

Hmmm. I have enjoyed living here, but there have been many times over the years I wished we were closer to my folks and the rest of the family back home. 1550 road miles was too far to drive often without a compelling reason, and flying was a bother/expensive. I would have loved it if they would have moved here. But they didn't.

I'd like to be close enough to see my family without making it an overnight trip or spending a lot of gas money, but at the same time don't want to live close enough to my dad that he and my step-mom start in on me again about letting the kids stay with them (without us there.)  No way is it going to happen, but if I tell them no outright, it'll most likely end in Dad not talking to us (or the kids) for years on end.  That's not fair to the kids, but it isn't fair to leave them unsupervised with them, either.  I kind of like the fragile peace treaty we have going on already and have no desire to change it.  I like my family.  Most of my best friends are related to me... my younger cousin and I have always been close, and their kids and our kids have a blast together (they have four young daughters.)

That's a dilemma; I'm glad I'm not facing it.   

it is a tough kettle of fish when you do not want your kids to stay over at their grandparents...

My mother in law Has moved in with a total clown...My wife and I have already decided that when we have kids they are not going to ever have contact with the idiot...Meaning that if he is there the kids will not be...Which makes it hard for my wife and her mom to be normal because her mom will want the kids as much as possible....And we will not be able to let them....We have no right to interfere with someone else's life...But at the same time they will be punished because they are with somebody that gives my wife the creeps...I will not let her go to her mom's when that guy is there or his son...His son is on crack and has sticky fingers...And I told my wife that I cannot go to jail because that piece of garbage will steal from us...He has stolen from everyone else..And as far as I am concerned the best way to deal with someone on crack is to dig the hole first then confront them...That way the hard part is already done.

sorry to hi-jack...Families and second marriages and all of the baggage is rough to deal with...

Benevolence, you're not hi-jacking... I think it was relevant.  Most of my family (particularly my mom's side) is great.  We have a really good relationship with almost all of them, and actually like being around them.  I love my dad, but there are issues of alcohol and his temper and my step-mom's.  I have a better relationship with them now than I ever had when I was growing up.  BUT, a few years ago when I went to India on a missions trip, they went off on my husband because my mom was coming here to stay with the kids while I was gone and he was at work.  THEY wouldn't have been willing to visit here; it's too far to drive and they don't want to spend the money to fly.  They wanted us to send the kids (then 2 and 3!!!!) by plane to OK!!!  And leave them with them for the whole time I was gone.... my kids would've been terrified.  Since that time, I've seen my dad get verbally abusive to the kids and/or me at least three times.  When I was a kid, I was somewhat used to it and it still scared me to death.  My kids have NEVER been talked to that way other than by them, and it really messed them up.  My younger one actually dealt with it better than the older one... she just doesn't want anything to do with them.  The older one would cry at the drop of a hat after that for nothing and had trouble sleeping.  I won't let them be around my dad and step-mom after that unless I am there to physically remove them when there is trouble.  They're too young to defend themselves.  I want them to know my dad... I think he's an intelligent and creative person, and there's so much they can learn from him when he's sober and not ticked at the world.  I figure we have to be on the opposite side of the city at least so that it makes more sense for us to come visit for the day and then head home...

My dad kicked me out at 17 1/2 -- offered to let me come back after a few days under his terms.  I never went back.  He was not a drinker.  He was religious.   He was not allowed to touch my kids or yell at them or drag them across the room by their hair.  The last time he tried to beat me for a minor perceived misstep I was 13 or so.  I first resisted him dragging me out of the room by holding on to the bed -- next great big pull he gave to tear me loose from the bed frame, I assisted him by kicking off of it with my feet.  This sent him flying backward into a piano.  I figured if I was going to get it anyway, I may as well have done something to deserve it.  I assume he nearly broke some ribs.  Funny.  He dropped it right there.  Never finished my whuppin, nor did he try again except to kick me in the ass for adjusting the carburetor on his chainsaw.  The mechanics where he worked wouldn't let the men do it because they often messed it up.  I understood gas engine theory and knew what I was doing.

So I understand your reluctance to be too close.  If he had touched my kids in the future I'd have beat the crap out of him and he knew it, so no problem.  We see each other once a year or so and talk on the phone - usually with mom every month or so.  We get along fine as un-family acquaintances.  I ignore his religion and letters for me to get back into it.  Other subjects are fine and I hold nothing against him.  I assume that may be the way he learned but didn't know much of my grandpa's early years. 

Glenn

How old is your father? What kind of relationship do your kids have with him?

And I totally understand about the drinking....When I was a little kid my dad drank a lot...lots and lots...He still drinks 15 beer most days ... When we were growing up he was angry at the world and usually us...When we all got older we all moved away and he misses us like crazy now and is lonely...It was weird to actually be appreciated...But when I go home now it is okay... my dad learned pretty quick that nobody was going to tolerate him trying to be a verbal bully...Respect is earned and  yelling or kicking the TV will just make me think he is an idiot...Sometimes it is so alien for me to think back when I was a kid and some of the rough times..I try to explain some of it to my wife...But she grew up in a semi normal non violent quiet house....So she cannot understand

Thankfully she supports my views of drugs and crack...And she wants nothing to do with her mom's new man and his family... they are all trainwrecks...We just refuse to be around them or have them influence our lives....And if my father or brother or aunt come visit my home it is always open to them... so long as they are respectful....Anger yelling guilt trips drama... and they get shown the door... The last time my brother came to visit I was glad to see him...He got all mad over something stupid starting yelling going crazy... told him to hit the road and was glad to see him go...I would welcome him back... As long as there is calm and civility...My wife and I do not fight and rarely raise our voice with each other...We just made a conscious decision to try to remove that from our lives.

My advice concerning family and the kids...Is do what is best for you and if they want to see your kids...They can come visit...Until kids get older and decide to go visit grandpa on their own...Make sure you have control of the situation...If there is a chance things can get ugly remove the problem...eliminate the risk... keep the kids at home.... it is just not worth it.. I mean you are an adult and you can handle your dad and his new woman...better you have to deal with the grief than your small children...

Dad is about 82 I think.  My kids visit my parents occasionally when in the area - daughter lives up there so sees them most often-- maybe 2 or 3 times a year.

The rest see them as they get a chance - once every year or to.  He is so brainwashed by religion that no one is real close if not doing things his way.  He selectively serves the right hand of god that leads the JW religion.  That means that if you are married to an outsider you will be frowned upon - not close but mostly tolerated by family.  If you get kicked out -- hooray for me--- the rest of the church will pretend you are invisible even if looking straight at you from 3 feet away. 

They are threatened with losing their everlasting life by the old men in New York who assume the title of Gods representative, however I'm sure they are only god's representative.  Quite a claim to make but I can see through them now, just as I learned from them and an early school teacher to see through the government.  Question authority.  Confront authority when necessary.  Show authority it's place when you can get away with it.  Use your good judgment.  Part from authority when you must. Use this advice only when to your benefit.

How far off topic was that?

the JW's are insane Glenn

They keep track of people asociated with their church they would rival the FBI or secret service... A friend of my wife is scared to death of her church...She took a job away from home an hour or so and does not have as much time to devote to the church as she did when she lived at home....And then she started to notice that someone from the church was following her when she was driving or getting groceries... They were camped out at her house looking for her...Scared her half to death....they have these lists and if you move they look for you and forward all the information they have on you to your new locale and they start the bullshit stalking all over again...

I am sorry but that is a cult....not anything spritual

I told the Jehovahs that beat on my door that Satan was my master...that got rid of them... .....

That's true -- he leads the US.

They already notified the guys up here - I'm never bothered with them dropping in, but I could teach them so much.

Well, since we're headed off on this topic, I am curious about something about JWs.  I have an uncle who married a JW woman and joined their church.  They have one daughter who just graduated from school a few years ago and is working as an EMT.  Their daughter used to rodeo competitively, but then this woman moved in with them and the daughter no longer participates in anything competitive.  The woman is old enough to be my grandmother and at first she was their neighbor, and then she started showing up anywhere they did.  I would see them at the county fair together etc., and when my oldest daughter was born on Christmas Eve, they're some of the only ones who came to the hospital to see her (because they don't celebrate.)  They brought the older woman, then, too.  The older woman seems pretty sweet, but I kind of get the impression that she's there to keep them from violating and church rules or something??  Is that remotely on base??  I can't imagine moving a third unrelated person into my home and marriage long term like that... I would think it would be a source of  conflict.  Anyway, she's been living in their house now for several years.  When I run into my uncle out somewhere, he is just like he has always been, but when I run into the whole family and the lady is with them, he is more careful about what he says.  Just curious I guess about what role this older woman is playing here...

Also, in high school, I had a good friend who was JW and he played ball with us every single day after school.  He told me one time that he just wanted out of the JWs, but if he were to leave, his family would disown him.  He ran away and joined the navy after high school, but then apparently after his enlistment was over, he ended up going back and marrying a JW girl.  I ran into him about 4 years ago and he mentioned quietly that he was still active in "the church" and that he had to stay in because "they" wouldn't let him out.  I guess it is hard for me to wrap my mind around why some people who know it is a cult don't just leave.... why they don't rebel even just a little bit... what is it that they are so afraid of?  That they won't find a family who will love and accept them?  Surely that can't be all it is?

They don't do that although they may watch themselves more around her.  Possibly she may be one they look up to as being more spiritual than they are -- generally respect - not especially weird in any sense.  If this person devotes a lot more time to preaching -- generally she would almost view it as a job, then they will feel a self imposed obligation to take care of her thinking that they are helping get gods word out in a way.  They many times take care of their own -- if she is widowed or unable to support herself readily then they will help her with room and board etc. so she can preach.  Many times they also encourage these ones to take advantage of the system - welfare etc. because while they say their gods kingdom is no part of this system, they are not above encouraging others to take advantage of all the system has to offer.

This is not necessarily consistent.  It depends greatly on the goodheartedness of the ones taking care of the person.  My sister has an old friend she has looked after for years after her husband died and has pretty well quit going to the church meetings as the rest there are such jerks and avoid helping the lady.  How much you get away with there is greatly related to who you know, and who the leaders there like, how cute (if a girl) or innocent you can act -- how you can twist them through looks , charm, etc.  I'm not too cute.

If they think they are assisting god by assisting these people they many times go way out of their way to help them.  My dad has assisted total idiots - ones that parked his milk truck on the hill and forgot to set the brake etc.  Reason is thrown out the window if you are helping god.  If they belong to the church they can't possibly be total idiots.  (Can they?) 

All of this servitude is mainly  based on the threat of losing their everlasting life.  The old men in NY set the policies.  The self righteous at the local levels enforce them not through actual rulings most of the time but just through constant suggestion - talks, three time a week meetings - keeping it fresh in their minds. 

The servitude is voluntary, willingly done as they are told it is gods will and it will ultimately gain them everlasting life on earth.  New heavens and a new earth -- (I think it may even be related to Bush's New World Order as the founder came from similar beliefs and is buried under a seeing eye pyramid like on the back of the dollar bill).  They will not violate the rules they have come to believe in their own mind as they are sure they may die if they do, although the reaching of their goal of everlasting life is never assured.  They always have to continue doing more.  The carrot is dangling from the string on the stick that is, unknown to them, attached to the back of their head. 

So to answer your question, the lady will have no direct influence on them except that they will censor themselves.

Second question.

The guy likely is not wanting to start over.  Probably does not have outside friends and doesn't make friends easily.  I was raised as one as a child but in the back woods in Oregon you had to learn that death happens and that things will not always be there as you wanted.  I had a kitten that got a broken back.  I didn't want it to suffer so I blew it away with a 12 gauge shotgun.  Life for me went on.  I did what I had to do.

My point is, that if you leave, you have to be prepared to do the same.  Not that you are going to kill anything or anyone, but they will be just as dead to you as if you had.  My very best lifelong friend will not return my calls anymore even if I go to his area because he will lose his life (he thinks at least he may) if he doesn't do god's (the old men in NY's will as god's representative} will.

This is why I can see through the US government also.  It is imperative that they do not lose control of the victim (witness willing call themselves sheep -- able to be led -- US citizens as a mass are unwillingly called sheeple - likewise blind, afraid to look and totally buying what they are told by the US gov.  It is the same brainwashing process).  If they don't do as the old men tell them they will lose their life.  Demons will get them.  Demons lurk behind every shadow.  In all of other religions churches -- books-- teachings -- buildings -- thoughts-- porn-- movies and TV--video games (this does not stop a lot of them from the entertainment stuff especially - they are pretty hypocritical about this).

Parallel of the government -- Bin Laden (long dead likely) will get you.  There is rumored a studio the US uses to make the fake movies to keep the people scared.  Al Queda (a CIA creation) will attack.  Bird flu -- anthrax --- North Korea -- Iran-- Iraq--- Saddam-- What would you like to be scared of today.  If you give up your freedom the government will take care of you and keep you safe.  Same exact type of brainwashing control..

exceeded length -- here's the rest ---

Thanks to the Witnesses I can see through them, the US government, all commercial religion - any religion that is signed up as a non-profit is a commercial religion in my opinion, and any one who involves themselves in politics - is under control of the state and is not a representative of God.  That is way to self assuming.  A true follower of God will not be in a religion that requires the use of money in my opinion.  Anything interpreted to be added to the two greatest commandments and receiving the free gift is mans requirement to have power over the individual.  Not God's.  Sorry -- that answerer branched out a bit there.

Witnesses commonly will not condone any extracurricular activity.  There is too much loss of control of thinking there.  Note that most of the control they wish to  exert is for the benefit of their children -- keeping them from drugs  and other bad influences.  They do not teach abstinence from alcohol - they are big on no drugs.  Alcohol does get to be a problem for some of them - similar to the rest of the world in my observation.

As to your friend - he is imposing the restriction willingly on himself - likely due to deep rooted taboos and fear of loss of all the friends he has ever known.  Note that some true friends will ignore them and speak to you a bit - not about religion usually, and could get into deep doodoo if the right person sees and wants to make something of it.

There -- everything you wanted to know but were afraid to ask.

There's no place like home, click click,  there's no place like home, click click.

Here we are -- back in Kansas.

Anything else -- just ask -- I'll be off prospecting soon but will get back later. 

Thanks, Glenn... I've always wanted to ask some of those things, but didn't want to offend my friend OC or my uncle John.  They know where I stand, and after one time have never tried to proselytize me again.  I remember one time my friend OC came to my door with a group of JWs and when I opened the door, he looked humiliated and apologetically handed me a Watchtower and told the others to leave me alone.  I had a roommate in the Grand Canyon during the summer I worked there who was Mormon, and had somewhat of a similar situation with her... we became really good friends and would sit up late at night having really great theological discussions, and then one day her brother and his friend came and almost kidnapped her... she couldn't even give notice at work... they just took her away because her 'Christian roommate was having a negative influence on her".  She immediately went to serve her two year mission in L.A., and I started getting phone calls from a Mormon group there.  When I was going to spend about three days in L.A. before going overseas to teach in Korea, I tried to contact her, but the people in charge of the Mormon visitor's center would not let her speak to me.  They pumped her for information about all her non-Mormon friends, and then called all of us, but we weren't allowed to even speak to her.  I told the people who called that if they would let me talk to her directly, then I would listen to what they had to say, but not until then.  Of course, they wouldn't....


In other news, though, I think we're going to Oklahoma instead of Kansas after all!  After comparing cost of living and salaries, benefits, insurance, etc., it looks very good.  Here I'd resigned myself to living in Kansas, but perhaps we can go back home after all.  I kind of look at the delicate balancing of relationships as a challenging opportunity instead of something to dread.  I think it'll work out just fine.  I can't wait to see red dirt!!!!!

My best friend now is a Mormon, but we don't let religion affect us.  I will no longer claim any mans religion.  Just the two greatest commandments, period.

I hope OK works out for you and of course we will all be monitoring your progress.  Kinda like you're under a microscope.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 25, 2008, 02:09:12 PM
Dad is about 82 I think.  My kids visit my parents occasionally when in the area - daughter lives up there so sees them most often-- maybe 2 or 3 times a year.

The rest see them as they get a chance - once every year or to.  He is so brainwashed by religion that no one is real close if not doing things his way.  He selectively serves the right hand of god that leads the JW religion.  That means that if you are married to an outsider you will be frowned upon - not close but mostly tolerated by family.  If you get kicked out -- hooray for me--- the rest of the church will pretend you are invisible even if looking straight at you from 3 feet away. 

They are threatened with losing their everlasting life by the old men in New York who assume the title of Gods representative, however I'm sure they are only god's representative.  Quite a claim to make but I can see through them now, just as I learned from them and an early school teacher to see through the government.  Question authority.  Confront authority when necessary.  Show authority it's place when you can get away with it.  Use your good judgment.  Part from authority when you must. Use this advice only when to your benefit.

How far off topic was that?

It is so strange in the way we think alike! I like to argue with them when they come over and after a few times they stop coming? I do not get along with orginised religion at all and will confront them when they try to change my way of thinking to theirs. I am no way a sheep in this world and sorta feel sorry for people who need this kind of security. I am not blind to what I see going on and have been member of a lot of different churches from a child to my early aldult years. To me it is all about power, control and money related reasons period with the elders. If others want to believe that it is fine just don't try to change my way of thinking and as far as the goverment I want them out of my life as much as posible. The 10 comanments seem like good rules to live by but leave out the other parts. Mark

I guess we should start our own little cult, eh?, Mark.  Then we probably wouldn't like ourselves either.

I was told I needed them -- made to believe it for a long time -- born into it.  Just couldn't swallow it.  I like to see things as they are -- not how someone wants me to think them to be.