Dow any one have experience with off grid inspections of cabins in upstate NY?  they say anything bigger than 144sqft requires building inspection, what exactly does that entail. Is it like a regular on grid house inspection?

 

Your local bldg dept would be able to supply a list of what they look for and/or require for a bldg larger than their min size. Most likely it will be much like what would be needed for conventional on grid homes. But you'd have to ask to be certain.

We have some NY members. Hopefully one of them can shed more light.

NY is a big state.  What county/area?  The county I am in (Otsego) has a list of approved electrical inspectors.  The list is pretty long. 

Most areas building inspection depends on what you are building.  I researched a few of the surround counties before I purchased my property.  Some had provisions for agricultural, commercial, residential, garages, and storage buildings.  If you are building something residential, then it would probably have to go through the same inspection procedures as every other house. A few of the counties I talked to wouldn't approve other buildings without a house being on the property first, unless it was zoned agricultural.

Thanks
I'm looking at Herkimer Co.

I have a cabin in Oswego county. It is 16x20. I had to have all the inspections that a house would have. I had them come back in September. They were no problem. The inspectors were fine to deal with. I had a few issues to correct. I had no outlets outside. Your required to have one front and back. I also had to add a second GCFI outlet to the "kitchen" area. Mind you the kitchen area is about 4x4. The building inspector also had me add the house number on the building. 

Hello and welcome, Herkimer.  We're building off the grid in southern Tompkins County, a stone's throw from Tioga County. 

To answer your question, yes, the inspection is identical to an on grid inspection, with 13 different site visits required at specific points in the process.  The building permit application for our little town includes very specific requirements and looks pretty intimidating, but there's actually nothing unreasonable there.  We're fortunate to have a wonderful building inspector - which is not to say he'd let us do anything stupid.  But he has been very helpful in many ways, and once he was satisfied that we weren't complete idiots, he's given us approval to progress two or three of those steps at a time with just a phone call.  So the regulations haven't turned out to be nearly as odious as they looked.  Of course, an inspector with a different personality could certainly have changed that perception considerably!

We have the same 144 sq ft restriction - maybe that's a State regulation? - and we've built two little cabins on our land without need for inspection.  (FYI, the addition of a driveway, a well, a septic system, and those two cabins have only added $1700 to the value of the land, according to the assessor's office, which is okay by us!)  Squirl is right about variations among the counties in terms of useage - here in Tompkins, they have really tightened up on that "it's just a hunting cabin" loophole.  Anything over 144 sq feet is a BUILDING, whatever you're planning to use it for, and whether it has wheels, wings, or barn doors.  If it's on your land, it gets inspected.

Speaking of the septic system, what we didn't fully understand when we started was that while the building is regulated by our friendly little town, anything having to do with water or sewage disposal is controlled by the county health department - and they're oriented toward urban and suburban development.  This "building a cabin in the woods" business does not compute, and if you have running water inside your cabin, you will be pounded into the same round hole as the McMansions in the subdivisions out by the mall.  Lots of regulations, permits, testing, fees, site visits, etc involved in making that happen.  Drilling the well was merely expensive; the septic system was a real nightmare, mostly because we didn't see it coming and didn't feel it was necessary.

We were naive enough to think that since we were off the grid, with a hand pump for water and a composting toilet, we'd be pretty much off the radar.  No dice; we ended up selling our paid-for car to finance a full-size septic system to process bath- and dishwater.  Fortunately for us, a couple of neighbors up the road had already fought the fight to try and enlighten the local health department about composting toilets, to no avail.  They spent a LOT of money on lawyers, and it got them nowhere.  And frankly, if it can't be done in Ithaca, it's going to be a long time coming anywhere else.  Maybe you already know all this, or were planning on it anyway. It sure knocked us for a loop, though.

But on the whole, the best thing you can do is to pick up a copy of the building permit at the town hall and then make friends with your inspector. 

Do you have your land already, or are you still looking?

Actually the 144 ft rule varies from each area.  One county I found was 100, one was 200, one was 144, and mine I believe is 0.  It is rarely enforced though.

Interesting Woodsprite.  I am about to go through the septic process in spring.  The regulations for the permits in Otsego County call for a septic engineer to design and certify the system is built as designed.  There is a list of about a dozen different engineers in the county.  The NY inspection code has specific provisions and well defined definitions for composting toilets and gray water systems.  I wish counties would know the laws that they are supposed to enforce.  Although in fairness, most people I talk to try to get away with the humanure method with a bucket and that isn't even close to code.  A code built composting system will probably cost as much if not more than a septic system, but just require less digging.  Also the individual that runs woodhenge in the area ran into the same problem.  I spoke to him about it at the PA energy fest.  He said he got around it because there is a religious exemption affidavit built into the NY building code which can exempt you from septic systems and electrical inspections.  He told me he posted it on his website.  I just never went looking for it.  I heard from others that have tried to build in your county that they are pretty hard on that subject. 

Quote from: Squirl on January 28, 2010, 10:40:12 AM
Actually the 144 ft rule varies from each area.  One county I found was 100, one was 200, one was 144, and mine I believe is 0.  It is rarely enforced though.

Interesting Woodsprite.  I am about to go through the septic process in spring.  The regulations for the permits in Otsego County call for a septic engineer to design and certify the system is built as designed.  There is a list of about a dozen different engineers in the county.  The NY inspection code has specific provisions and well defined definitions for composting toilets and gray water systems.  I wish counties would know the laws that they are supposed to enforce.  Although in fairness, most people I talk to try to get away with the humanure method with a bucket and that isn't even close to code.  A code built composting system will probably cost as much if not more than a septic system, but just require less digging.  Also the individual that runs woodhenge in the area ran into the same problem.  I spoke to him about it at the PA energy fest.  He said he got around it because there is a religious exemption affidavit built into the NY building code which can exempt you from septic systems and electrical inspections.  He told me he posted it on his website.  I just never went looking for it.  I heard from others that have tried to build in your county that they are pretty hard on that subject. 

Yep, we thought we had our act together, and were working on a grey water system design before we got the bad news. 

Well, don't let me scare you about the septic system, Squirl.  I'm sure if we'd had a pile of money budgeted for a septic system and had been expecting to put in flush toilets and disposals and a laundry room, it all would have seemed like a minor inconvenience.  Actually, once we had the money to do it, our driveway guy appeared out of the woodwork and mentioned that he was certified to design and build septic systems, and he could make us a minimal but legal one for a lot less than we'd expected.  He did, and it was quickly done, quickly approved, and didn't require the sacrifice of any major trees.  So I shouldn't complain.  (You may notice this has not stopped me!)

The religious exemption thing is interesting.  There's a tiny church in our area that has a perfectly good composting toilet, which has been used by the parishioners as if it were an outhouse.  Somebody else's outhouse.  There are RATS in there...it's terrifying.  I've often wondered how they get away with it.

Do you mind if I ask how much the septic system cost?  Could you break down the part i.e. 1)perc.  2)design  3) build ?

thanks

Quote from: bmancanfly on February 10, 2010, 10:53:38 AM
Do you mind if I ask how much the septic system cost?  Could you break down the part i.e. 1)perc.  2)design  3) build ?

Not at all, although I have a feeling we got an incredible deal.  The prices we were quoted by the contractors recommended by our health department were so horrifying ($6,000-$10,000) that we ended up selling our car to finance it.  One day we were standing around bellyaching to the guy who did our driveway - a local good old boy whose family has been pushing dirt around in these parts for several generations.  He stunned us by saying casually, "That's nuts.  I'm certified to do septic systems.  I could do you a minimal but legal one for $4K.  I know Joe at the health department, so they won't put you on some waiting list for the perc test, either."  I don't know what it takes to get certified as an engineer of septic systems, but believe me, at that point we were in no mood to question his qualifications!

Four days and $3,800 later we had a septic system - installed, inspected, and good to go.  He didn't bother to break down the costs for design/build; he only gives receipts if reminded, and they're not what you'd call detailed.  I can't find the perc test in our check register, but I know it was under $100.  After the months of anguish about how we were going to pay for this stupid pointless $%@#! septic system, the actual installation was almost embarrassingly quick and easy.

Wow. That is a good price.  Good for you.  I wonder if I can get him to do mine when I'm ready.  lol.

Be careful what you wish for:  the proverbial "rest of the story" is that it took this same wonderful guy FOUR MONTHS to get around to doing the toboggan run driveway.  Naturally he showed up, unannounced, the eve of the first big snow, when we had a 12-hour house guest who had traveled WAY out of his way to rehearse with us.  That was - let's see - January 2007, and we're still waiting for him to finish it.

Unreliable contractors - one of many reasons why I like to do all aspects of the job myself.   

Quote from: bmancanfly on February 10, 2010, 06:26:04 PM
Unreliable contractors - one of many reasons why I like to do all aspects of the job myself.   

Yep.  Well, that and abject poverty. 

Seriously, those two jobs (well, those two plus the well-drilling, which actually went just fine) are the only thing we've ever paid anyone to do for us, and we've had more aggravation and disappointment over them than you can imagine.  We couldn't have designed and installed a septic system, but we did all the major clearing for the driveway ourselves, and I can't imagine why we didn't just rent a tractor and finish the job when he didn't show up on Labor Day weekend as planned. 

Have you seen this website:
http://www.eco-nomic.com/septic.htm

Anything is possible with the right equipment and the desire. 

Quote from: bmancanfly on February 10, 2010, 10:53:38 AM
Do you mind if I ask how much the septic system cost?  Could you break down the part i.e. 1)perc.  2)design  3) build ?

I'm in VT, not NY, so take it for what its worth, but I'm looking at $1-2k for perc/design and $5-6k for a conventional septic (double that if I have to go with a mound system).