Well this is the start of my thread for our owner built 20x34. Lets hope that I can keep up with it better than last time I started a thread. A few years back we owner built a 24x30 1 story cottage that we recently sold for a pretty good profit. We were shocked at what they gave us for it actually. Anyhow we took our profit and used it as a big down payment on 21 acres in Tahlequah Ok. It is 8 miles from town and close to my wife's job. Its a pretty piece of land with a live water creek and highway access(no more dirt roads). We have decided on the 20x34 universal cottage and just received the plans. I did a cost estimate using the materials list and figured $22,000 not including fixtures, electrical and plumbing which we will pay for as we go. I presented this to my banker and asked for a $30,000 line of credit. I haven't heard back from him yet.
Last weekend we marked out a spot and we plan on doing a beam and pier foundation. I think the beam and pier foundation will be cheapest, simplest and more flexible than the other types of foundations. On our property it is very rocky where the placement of the house is so I think individual holes dug to the bedrock will be easier than a trench for a concrete block crawlspace, a basement would probably require blasting. We decided against a slab because of the lack of flexibility in the plumbing. Plus we want wood floors not stained concrete like last time. During our 24x30 build I placed the toilet too far from the wall. I told my wife that if we had done a raised wood floor we could have fixed that.
We would like to do exposed beams on the first floor ceiling/2nd floor flooring. Where the stairs are we would like to do exposed posts. I have access to some large downed pine trees. They should be dry, probably been laying off the ground for several years. I am thinking about hand hewing them with an axe and using them as joists for the second floor. I also have some Osage orange logs that are green I would like to strip the bark from and use as posts in the stairs and as support for the second floor joists. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Will the Osage orange beams need years to dry, to avoid shrinking? Will the pine logs work as joists on a 20 foot span?
So I will try to get some pics up of the location this weekend. We plan on working every weekend till we get it done. The lease on our Apartment ends in May 2014 so that is our scheduled move in date.
I have no advice, but I bought the same plans and have 5 acres a half mile from the Illinois River here in Siloam Springs, AR, about 45 mins from you. I'd be interested in seeing what you do. We're hoping to start on ours around March-April, although I'm not sure we'll be using the Universal plans.
Osage is very hard and stable, and a beautiful wood. I don't know if you could find or mill a piece long and straight enough to support the second floor joists. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/osage-orange/
The houses in my neighborhood often sit on bedrock. Post and pier foundations have a very high failure rate, with people later lifting their house to pour a perimeter pinned to the bedrock. Might as well do that without a house in the way, in my opinion. This IS a do it yourself project, I've done two and planning a third. Trench where you can, pin where you can't, form with fabric, then you have the best of both worlds---a monolithic perimeter with crawl space access.
Thank you for the advice, we still have not decided on the foundation yet. I figured the post and pier if done right would be better because it is more flexible. There are houses around here sitting on stacked rocks. My uncle's home is two story and well over 100 years old. It is a stem wall of just stacked rocks. Block stem walls are popular around here, and floating slabs have become very popular, but I don't why. Every slab or block stemwall(specifically slabs) has a crack in it somewhere.
Our last (contractor built) home had a slab, and it was cracked all the was across the slab. We had an older home several years ago that had foundations issues. The house was on a stem wall and the addition was a slab, the slab was settling and cracking causing the addition to separate from the house. It also had sagging floors. I figured that a post and pier would not move, because of the size and depth of the footings, and if it did it would be easier to fix. Just jack it up and replace install a longer post, or shim it. That is how we fixed the sagging floors in that old house a bottle jack and some scrap wood, but I spent a lot of time pondering how I would fix that addition till I finally sold the old house, I still don't know how I would fix it. But I am a greenhorn I don't really know.
As far as the osage orange interior posts. Our last owner built home we had a porch with cedar posts, I cut from the property. I just stripped the bark and left them with some of the branches for hanging stuff on. I really liked that and its becoming a popular option around here. We have a lot of Osage orange trees on the property. I thought I would find one or two to make posts in the stairwell. Maybe the porch also. The more twisted the better, but stripping the bark and staining it.
The real engineering challenge we have is the upstairs floor joists and flooring. My wife saw in a magazine a room with exposed hand hewn beams and subfloor. We liked that. I was hoping to do hand hewn beams and maybe ship lapped planks for the upstairs flooring. I would like to use local wood for the exposed parts and the floors. Maybe hardwood beams and cedar planks from a local sawmill???? Anybody done this? If I do wood plank flooring do I still need the beams to be 24" oc or can I go wider?
I will get some pics of the house location up this weekend. Thanks for the advice. And Jared you are more than welcome to come see our progress anytime
4x12's @ 24" on center in #2 southern yellow pine will work. 6x10's in #2 SYP will work at 32" centers. If there is support somewhere in midspan those can be considerably smaller and will perform better. The wider the joist spacing the better and thicker the flooring needs to be. If pine logs have been down with the bark on for several years they are probably shot.
Osage Orange... Bodark... Bois D'arc (wood of the bow, as in bow and arrow) would be a fine choice for a post, it is hard and dense so it'll move more than a less dense species as it dries, Eastern redcedar is relatively light, grows quite dry and is more stable. Anything that is spiral grained or "funky" is going to move more and less predictably as it dries. Structurally using green for a post is ok, the movement is more a matter of personal taste and expectations. Black locust is one I use for those applications a fair amount and it is generally pretty stable as well, although dense it has a high extractives content that helps stabilize it. all three of those are also naturally decay resistant.
Cracks in block or concrete are not neccesarily a sign of a failure. Since masonry has no tensile strength cracks are fairly common. As long as things are not displaced they are usually not a concern. For instance in most steel reinforced concrete they tell us in engineering texts that the steel that is giving the tensile reinforcement isn't doing any work until the concrete cracks. In your area of the country post tensioned slabs have become fairly common. By stretching the steel chords in the slab after the pour and securing them, the slabs tend to crack much less and can handle the soil movements common to shrink swell soils by acting as a stiffer unit instead of breaking over areas of uplift or subsidence underneath them. Some of what foundation walls do is provide uniform support and brace the building. Google foundation repair in your area of the country and you'll normally see the greatest number saying they repair pier type foundations. The way to do post and pier right is to have a local engineer design it.
Quote from: Don_P on November 29, 2013, 07:56:29 PM
4x12's @ 24" on center in #2 southern yellow pine will work. 6x10's in #2 SYP will work at 32" centers. If there is support somewhere in midspan those can be considerably smaller and will perform better. The wider the joist spacing the better and thicker the flooring needs to be. If pine logs have been down with the bark on for several years they are probably shot."
I am wanting to use hand hewn beams as joists, so would a pine log that has been down with the bark off be okay? On the ranch I work at there at least 8 or 10 pine logs that have fallen and are not touching the ground. I was rolling around the idea of dragging them up on a trailer and hand hewing them with an axe. If I actually hand hewn logs that were green as 6x10's how long would I need to let them dry? What if I bought 6x6 or 6x10 rough cut posts from a local sawmill and shaved them with an axe to give it a hand hewn look?
Thanks for the foundation info, my thought on the post and pier was the ease of installation and ease of repair if it does have issues in the future. To do a slab on grade or block stem wall would require some dirt work. Especially slab on grade. But perhaps we should get some estimates. But Don_P I take it your vote is slab on grade?
EDIT: repaired broken quote... MtnDon
Our home is on a concrete slab; concrete placed Dec '84. No issues. Cracks in it here and there but no movement of any part of it.
We have a cabin on piers and beams, erected in '09. Also no issues. But I have a better understanding of foundations now than I did then. Some of which I learned from Don_P, some from professional engineers. Wish I had known them all before. If I was building today I would not do the piers again because with piers there is a greater chance of needing future repairs.
Repairing piers might seem easy, but it can also be fraught with considerable danger.
I wouldn't say I prefer slab on grade, I prefer continuous perimeter support and tie down with good lateral bracing, which is easiest to do with slab, crawlspace, or basement. In my mountainous terrain I've never done a simple slab on grade. There are some but they are not the common foundation here. So topography is one of the factors. Someone posted the other day from the mountains where he has some ridgetop land and a need for an accessible house for his aging father, I'd try real hard to do a slab on grade or very slightly raised slab with thoughts of rolling from vehicle right into the house. My own house is half crawlspace and half elevated slab on fill. We hand shovelled and tamped about 20 cubic yards of fill, then 6 yards of gravel, foam insulation and then poured on top of that. That is the large south facing living/dining side with alot of glass to help with heating this time of year. The overhangs are sized to admit the lower sun angle this time of year yet provide shade during summer. The plumbing all drops into the crawlspace half. If a post foundation is used I'd prefer a post frame with posts that extend to the tops of the walls and the walls acting as bracing for the post, but you're into an engineered building to do that right. Look at a "pole barn" and think about what that metal skin is doing to brace the tall posts. A proper foundation is just a part of the cost of a house. We see it all the time here, people chomping at the bit to start, trying to save a nickle on one of the most important parts of the house, and not realizing they are perching a huge sail on top of wobbly legs.
If the logs show no borer damage or decay, are good straight, small limbed trees, then they can be used. With a 20' span be very critical, if there's any motorhead in you, imagine installing those timbers, attaching a torque wrench at midspan and pulling down on the handle to 4400 ft-lbs. That is the bending force the fully loaded joists are resisting. When you look them over to hew them try not to put knots along the lower part of the beam where the bending stress will cause the beam to break, you'd prefer an unbroken strap of nice straight grained wood along that bottom edge. No knots or defects anywhere over 1/3 the beam depth, the center third of the span length is the most critical. There is no shame in going bigger.
SYP dries relatively fast. If these are kept under shelter, up off the ground well, good spacers between timbers and a good breeze they will be fairly dry in a year. They will still dry, check and move more for a couple of years inside a conditioned house. Big timber takes awhile to finish drying and then some species like white oak can dry at a glacial pace. Yellow pine has very long relatively large bore cells that are connected by pretty large pits between them where something like white oak has smaller, tighter cells, small pits and membranes within the cells that block them... which is why Jack Daniels likes them for storing whiskey, they don't leak! To be really honest when people ask "how long?" the only truly correct answer is, "when it's done". There are too many variables in the weather and in the tree to speak in absolutes. The dryer the better but many buildings have been built with green wood as well, again it's a matter of expectations. In old timberframe work the peasant's cottage was often framed with dead green timbers where the cathedral and castle were built with fully seasoned timbers.
Oh, one of the cool numbers from Van's link on osage, look at the compression parallel to grain number (crushing strength), about 5,800-9,300 psi, green to dry (dry wood is about twice as strong as green wood). Now think about compressive strength of concrete, 2,500-5,000 psi typically. Osage is tough stuff.
Okay so today we went out and somewhat leveled the land using the front end loader of the tractor. We are going to buy 2x6 lumber to use as forms for the footer of our foundation. We have decided to go with a full block stem wall instead of post and pier. Last time we did this we built a slab, we built a form out of 2x12's and leveled the form instead of the ground then pushed dirt up around it. This time I hope to do a little of both, because this is a stem wall not a slab, I am going to do a little dirt work and set the form level. We have no transit just a level. So I figure if I can get the form to sit on the soil level I can then just dig a trench in the form as deep as I can then pour concrete up to the top of the form and I have a level footing to set block on. Does that make sense?
I hope we get it right, I built a native stone wall in my last home behind the wood stove of our last home. That is the extent of my masonry experience. I am proud to say it survived several small earthquakes.
(//)
I am trying to insert an image of our last foundation for reference. Can anyone show me how to attach images? d*
guess the pic didn't work. I also thought I might throw this interesting little tidbit of info out there. My uncle said that when my Great Grandparents built his home back in the early 1900's they used a bowl of water as a level. Can you imagine!!!
I promise to get pics if someone can show me how.
QuoteCan anyone show me how to attach images?
read http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11663.0
basically you can not upload images directly to the forum message. You need to host the pictures on a site like Photobucket. Others work. Them from there find the {IMG} tag and place that in the message here.
The link above is to some info on Photobucket use. PB keeps chnaging things so there are discrepancies in the info, but the link should help
Around here it was a pail filled to one of the rings. For king tut's pyramid I've seen the levels squares and cubit sticks. The level was an inverted T shaped frame with a plumb bob that hung in front of a mark that indicated when the beam was level, simple and effective. A water level is the best cheap way to level something like this without a transit. About 40' of clear plastic tubing for a job this size would do it. As long as it is calm and the plastic is 1/2" or better in diameter the water will seek its' own level and you can use that to check your work.
You'll need to check what the local frost depth is. I think you'll be in the 18" neighborhood. Remember the footings can be stepped to follow the contour of the land, in 8" increments to correspond to the height of a block. A footing need only be about 8" thick typically, so normally we don't need to form them in good soils, the sides of the trench create the form. We'll put bulkheads across the trench to create steps. The blockwork then begins a bit below grade. If you have enough native stone I've used that for foundation walls as well, it needs to be at least 16" thick though. I have dug footings with a garden tiller, using it to loosen the soil and then shovelling that out. A single shank subsoil plow would work as well. If you have some scrap steel and a welder you could put together a shank for the 3 point pretty easily, just a ripper. Clean out the bottom of the trench to undisturbed soil by hand.
Water level---this is 3/8" stuff but 1/2" would have found its level quicker. Make sure you get all the bubbles out
http://flyingvan.blogspot.com/2010/07/forming-forms.html
Leveling: We've used wine bottles on their side to find level with the truck bed for sleeping in when the real level could not be found.
A little food coloring in the water makes a water level easier to read. Works well.
Quote from: MountainDon on December 01, 2013, 10:03:54 AM
Leveling: We've used wine bottles on their side to find level with the truck bed for sleeping in when the real level could not be found.
A little food coloring in the water makes a water level easier to read. Works well.
I have found back in my drinking days after finishing a bottle of Night Train or MD 20 20 or Bones Farm or Anne Green Springs did not matter much if the pick up was level or not. ;)
But I sure hated waking up all corrugated d*
With all that said I will apologize for hijacking your thread. Just one of those days......
We worked for a while on sunday getting the footings dug for the foundation. For some reason we didn't make much progress. MY daughter also lost the SD card for her camera so we didn't get any pics taken. :-[
Some good news, our banker called and said financing would not be an issue, just send him the plans along with a materials estimate. I had the local lumber yard put together a materials list. It came out at $43700 if we bought everything new. From blocks for the foundation to the kitchen sink. I was pleasantly surprised with the cost because I know we can do better on a lot of those items. For example that included $5000 for premium windows. We will source all our new materials from them because we prefer to stay local than go to Lowe's. But we will be checking Craigslist and habitat for humanity local sawmills and discount yards for a lot things.
I also talked to the county assessors office. She said we have no permitting requirements in rural Cherokee county just call them when we are finished. And they will reassess the property.
Lastly, we stumbled across a link on this site for the Firstday cottages. Does anyone have any comments on them? I called the company and the owner sounded legitimate. I loved the building techniques used in the construction, and the exposed wood frame. I asked him if we could just buy the plans and source the wood and materials locally. He said no because they can supply higher quality European wood at a better price.
Man!!! I just wish I could get a set of plans. We could get some beautiful wood here in Eastern Oklahoma/Northwest Arkansas. This is the Ozarks for gods sake, you can throw a rock and hit a sawmill. Not to mention the crazy spike in portable sawmills sawing eastern red cedar in central Oklahoma. I just don't believe he could get higher quality at a better price. But maybe so!!
I did a search on here and they seem like they have a lot of satisfied customers. And their similar floor plans come out to be around the same build cost as our 20x34 two story universal.
We haven't poured concrete yet!!! any thoughts ?
Well, we call it eurotrash, I can post design strength values for comparison ;)
You want post and beam construction? Let's see what you have for a floorplan and see what's possible.
First Day is a sort of hybrid similar to old dutch timber frames.
I was achey before dawn so doodled a little.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/20x32PB.jpg)
checks out in 6x6 posts and 6x8 beams of reasonably strong wood. FD seems to use built up bent assemblies shich is neat but I'm not sure how you would accomplish this in the field without tons of exposed nails in the build up. There are companies that make glue laminated timbers of that type but cost likely gets high. I drew this with solid sawn timbers, the downside is that it would be best to get these as dry as possible before building. I like to plane them first but finish expectations are a matter of personal taste. Anyway, a starting point for discussion.
From what I gather, the first day's strength comes from the T&G sheathing. I contacted a local sawmill and they can mill me 1x6 T&G pine or cedar for $1.50 a bd. foot. It is good lumber that is locally sourced from eastern Ok. Western Arkansas. I feel much better about that than having wood shipped from Siberia to New Hampshire to Oklahoma. They also can do T&G and spec lumber out of any other material. Say Walnut or Red Oak. I think that would be nice maybe a Walnut entryway. So I like the goalpost building method. It seems so simple, just space them 3' o/c to match your doors and windows. Then start applying the T&G sheathing. But I am sure it is not so simple. Check out this link http://employees.oneonta.edu/landrydk/spechouse.html
The floorplan we are wanting to use is from this forum the 20x32 in NC by mwhutch see this thread
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13150.msg171133#msg171133
Don would you be willing to post a link to the Sketchup model file that you made? I would really like to play with that a bit. Thanks.
There are a couple of problems with the FD I googled. The sheathing doesn't add strength as far as bending but is supposed to brace the structure, it should be run diagonally or some X straps of metal over it or plywood, under the foam. The goal posts I looked at in one design on the net, the tie was way up around 10' and in the upper third of roof height, he could have dropped it to 8' and been in or very close to the lower third where it is supposed to be prescriptively. with engineering this may be ok but I'd have it designed. I saw they had to put 4" of foam on the walls, that's more what I was guessing. I do like the concept. Basically sort of like a timberframe, there is pretty much the same amount of wood as a stick frame build it is just concentrated in fewer but larger members. I was checking prices on some 1x6 T&G I misordered and ended up eating, it's been in the barn for about 2 years but was .46/lf, happily a friend emailed that he might be interested. You should be able to do better in pine, but for cedar or something out of the ordinary that sounds like a good deal.
I played with a little model of a bent down in the shop a year or two ago, rather than trying to laminate 3 equal width boards together flush I used a wider board as the center ply making a stepped reveal on the interior for decorative effect.
There are several papers by Bonhoff on nail laminated posts as well as a paragraph or two in the WSDD manual at awc.org. I think I have one or two from VT as well, this is a common post frame (pole barn) post assembly... in fact one of those engineers would be a good plan checker.
hpinson, it is quick and dirty, I didn't spend much time on it, just a doodle;
http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/20x32PB.skp
The rafter to tie connection at 30psf snow needs to be ~2200lbs, unresolved at this point, maybe a strap on the top of the joist, bore horizontally thru the rafter seat and bend it up on top of the rafter or a large bolt thru the rafter and joist plugged on the bottom... always a problem when the tie is not alongside of the rafter.
Can you all get FD's website to come up?
QuoteCan you all get FD's website to come up?
Yes, both http://www.firstdaycottage.com/ and http://www.firstdaycottage.com/Main.html come up.
Thank you Don. Even though it is a doodle it helps me learn a) Sketchup and b) your ideas of what might work in such a post and beam house. I've working with the Timber Framers Guild book "Fourteen Small Timber Frames": http://tfguild.stores.yahoo.net/tifrguplbo.html and one model is partly complete in Sketchup. I don't use it enough to retain facility between sessions though-- basically I forget what I learned the last time.
So I understand the basic idea between the FD cottages. The bents built 3ft oc to accept standard windows and doors. I like the laminated lumber bents because they fit together like a puzzle. I think I could design the bents and put them together. The only issue will be in the details and knowing what is safe (sturdy). For example is it important to use 2 inch sheathing and flooring or can you use 1". 1x6's for example to sheath the home and floors. I can buy used T&G flooring all day long for $.50 a board foot. But it is typically 2 to 6 inches wide and 1/2 to 1 ' thick. I kinda like the idea of mixing and matching wood types. For example there is 450 bd ft of T&G maple 1x6 on craigslist for .50 a foot We could put maple in the living room and oak in the dining, pine in the bedrooms, and cedar in the closets, so on and so forth. But if I have to have the sheathing and decking 2" thick that could get expensive. So am I overthinking this or underestimating the complexity of the project?
I was doodling more earlier this evening;
Birds eye, partially assembled, the lower section is assembeled the left kneewall post is in, right is not, 1 ply of rafters, the rafter tie and collar tie are in. So one more kneewall post and a pair of rafters to go;
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/FD20a.jpg)
I checked the floor joists using the code tables for #2 syp 2x12's @ 19.2" spacing... using a pair every 36" as in the FD is a little less stress on them than one every 19.2" so that table should be fine.
Doing the same thing with the rafters #2 syp 2x8's passed. The rafter tie needs double the nails specced and the closest table is for 24" centers, use 10 nails at each end of the tie, 5 from each side rafter into the rafter tie.
This is with 5' kneewalls, 12/12 pitch and the rafter tie at 8', putting that tie in the lower third of roof height.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/FD20b.jpg)
You will need to use 1-1/2" thick decking for the floor and roof, 3/4" is fine for the walls. I'd use 2x6's for the posts myself.
I understand the superior insulation seal they get by not having projecting rafter tails but if the walls rot there is far more energy lost in replacing the siding than the loss in a well sealed projecting tail.
I hear you hpinson, I blew several components and layers in that sketch, I'll try to remember to post a good one. I have the same problem, I don't use sketchup enough to stay sharp and I'm still using version 8, I think they're on V13 now. Sketchup for dummies is a help.
Must be my connection MD, no joy at my end, just tried again, I'll check it when I'm on hi speed.
Found a really cool old updraft cast iron intake manifold today... with the bush hog, gonna be welding tomorrow d*.
sheesh, Don_P you could not be more helpful. Thank you so much. ::)
So I could get away with 1" or 3/4" sheathing on the walls but I need to stick to 2" decking on the floors and roof correct? And I also am confused when you say I can use 36" on the floor joist, but only 24" on the rafter ties what do you mean? Will that mean the rafters will need to be spaced 24" apart and the floor joists 36" that wont work. ??? Or does that mean the rafter tie need to be 24" long?
My wife and I are seriously thinking about building this way. We have the 20x34 Universal plans. We are thinking about a hybrid 2 story universal/Victoria cottage. this is the floorplan we are thinking: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13150.msg171133#msg171133
In your models you do not give me the span of the 2x12 floor joists. Are they 20' or do they need to be less without a post in the middle? What is the maximum width we can go up to 20 feet?
Hi Don_P. I was playing with your model last night and was wondering what alteration would be needed to remove the very center upright post. The reason I ask is that my plans are also along this line - post and beam 20x34 - however there would be no second floor. Just a gable roof, perhaps pitched at a lessor angle - perhaps 4:12 or 6:12, or maybe a hip roof which is very characteristic of local historic homes here in New Mexico.
Just got a photobucket account. Trying to upload an image. This is the floorplan we are thinking about using. By the way it is totally stolen from this forum. And we are wanting a different window and door arrangement. And we want to separate the right bedrooms with French doors and relocate the closets.
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/secondfloor20x32_zpsc83ee378.png) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/secondfloor20x32_zpsc83ee378.png.html)
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/firstfloor20x32_zps716ade9a.png) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/firstfloor20x32_zps716ade9a.png.html)
That's a very nice layout. The large mudroom/bath works well and the main floor feels spacious. Is that a large pantry space that extends into the upper right of the bath? This layout looks to be done on Home Designer or 3DHA. I think it was done by another forum member right? Do you have a link?
It is interesting thinking of doing this in a FD type timber frame using standard cut lumber and decking. Makes for a nice wood rich interior. It also has all the drawbacks of timber frame IE: expensive to insulate and more trouble to do wiring and plumbing.
I think Don_P's cross section frames could also work on standard platform frame walls and floor with the 5' pony wall above.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/sketches/FD20b.jpg)
Yes the floorplan is totally stolen from these guys. ( http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13150.msg171133#msg171133 ) But they are building a full two story. We are thinking about a 1 1/2 story now on a 20 x 34 footprint. My big concern is obviously structural integrity. It also seems to easy to build it the way FirstDay has it designed. I am a little concerned because most firstday cottages are 15 ft. wide and 3ft o/c for each "structural piece. Every floor joist span I can find online limits us to 24 o/c and 17 ft span on all types of wood. Do we need to a large beam down the length of the house? We could easily do this using a osage orange post at the stair well like I mentioned in the my first post. and making the mudroom walls load bearing. Does that sound about right?
Also does anyone have any comments on the idea of French doors separating the two bedrooms? I have two daughter's the oldest wants her own room but we figure they can open the French doors to increase ventilation. We also want to put French doors on the closet for the same reason in the master. We plan on putting 3x3 windows on all the walls so with the windows open and the French doors open, the south breeze will blow straight through the bedrooms.
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/secondfloor20x32_zpsf292b6d5.png) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/secondfloor20x32_zpsf292b6d5.png.html)
As you know, the Universal Cottage plan is designed for standard platform framing not timber frame. There will be a lot of changes and complications.
If you want a timber frame floor for the upper level you will likely want a center beam (to cut down the span) then floor beams (perhaps 3' o/c spanning under 10') on top of that. Then you can use 2x6 T&G decking to span the under 3' between the floor beams. If you do this with solid timber it will be a nice looking system. The First Day built-up beams and posts will not look as much like timber frame.
It doesn't look to me like french doors will work in the small bedrooms. (Do you have two standard doors and a french door as well?) I would stick with the two standard wood doors and build a temporary framed opening between the two rooms and hang a curtain for now. When the girls later want more privacy you can infill the opening or do a bookcase or something more permanent.
I would do the same thing with the master dressing area. In my house I framed an opening to our closets and hung muslin curtains anticipating installing bifold wood doors in the future (when we had more $$). We found we like the opening curtains better than fussing with bi-folds. French doors would be even more intrusive as they have to have dedicated swing space and you have to get around them each time.
Lets see, alot has happened today;
QuoteSo I could get away with 1" or 3/4" sheathing on the walls but I need to stick to 2" decking on the floors and roof correct?
Yup
And I also am confused when you say I can use 36" on the floor joist, but only 24" on the rafter ties what do you mean? Will that mean the rafters will need to be spaced 24" apart and the floor joists 36" that wont work. Or does that mean the rafter tie need to be 24" long?
I was really just referencing the codebook heeljoint table for a description of how I arrived at the 10 nails in the rafter tie connection. So yes the double rafters are on top of the 3' on center posts, all is good.
In your models you do not give me the span of the 2x12 floor joists. Are they 20' or do they need to be less without a post in the middle? What is the maximum width we can go up to 20 feet?
Using the codebook you can go 20' with #2 SYP 2x12's BUT the codebook is printed and thus dated. This summer SYPine was derated strengthwise, using the new strength numbers it would take #1 grade to make a 19'6" span, so you're good. The region that caused the derate was up here not in the southern part of the range from my understanding. Now to put a bug in your mind, Select Structural (pretty much clear) red oak 2x12's will also work. This frame would look good in oak. SelStruc SPF works as does #1 DougFir-Larch
Yes my section sketch can be just as easily viewed as a platform frame. I've mentioined this many times, if the kneewalls are about 5' tall the rafter ties can drop to the lower third of roof height and life is good.
This next part is going more into hpinson's Q and John R's comments;
To use heavy timber for the upper floor joists (non FD method, more like my initial post and beam drawing) I agree that a center wall or post and beam setup is required. With ~16' from the stairs to the exterior wall that beam is going to be a honker, it'll be along the lines of a 6x12 glulam or LVL. For a single story timberframe with no floor load on the ties/ceiling joists, I would make the roof system out of heavy timber kingpost trusses and purlins, space the trusses about 8' apart and run purlins on 2-3' centers over them in the 34' direction then sheath with 1x decking running up and down the pitch.
I think this sketch has that arrangement;
independencefarmersmarket.org/timberframe/marketbuilding.skp
For the french doors, double pocket doors meeting in the middle?
Don
That market building timber frame is very handsome. I love the way the model wordlessly unfolds the structure.
I tried to open the link you pasted but it required me to download a program. Do I have to download a program?
So if I put a post in the middle of the house to support a large beam that would support the 20ft floor joists in the upper floors and then used the mud room wall in the left side of the house would that work? See pic
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/firstfloor20x32_zps91b04607anotheridea_zps9542615b.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/firstfloor20x32_zps91b04607anotheridea_zps9542615b.jpg.html)
You need to install the free Sketchup program. Here is the latest version: http://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-make
After it's installed, click Don's file and save it on your desktop if needed - then Sketchup will load it.
You're on the right track with your beam and post diagram.
If you can handle a post out there where you drew the osage post it'll help cut down on the size of a support beam. More terminology, a girder is a type of beam that supports other beams, so that honker beam is also called a girder since it is supporting other beams, the floor joists. In timberframing it is also called a summer beam, from sumpter, a farmer's biggest ox.
Other things to think about, John mentioned difficulty plumbing, look at the upstairs bath and think about how you're going to get the drains down...
He mentioned cost, go ahead and price the foam, that might be a deal breaker. Also think about the sealing details well, somebody is having a real tough time with plumbing right now I suspect due not to lack of insulation but due to infiltration, poor sealing. All the insulation in the world is of no use if the breeze blows thru the cracks. The engine that drives drafts is temperature differential. On the coldest day of the year a gap is drafting the worst. One mantra to remember on the order to take care of things from my passive solar days, infiltration, insulation, insolation (the sun).
You mentioned the breeze and gave a relatively small window height dimension, remember every bedroom needs an egress window with specific requirements. Manufacturers usually denote egress windows. VERY important.
In the market file, I think John knew how to play the assembly file. The sketch loads on scene 12. Right click that tab and click "play animation". This is one way a designer can show how details or entire buildings can be assembled, way cool.
Here's how the other Universal Cottage project is going. Sounds like plumbing is the current project and isn't much fun right now. :o
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=13150.new;topicseen#new
I hope everyone is staying warm. We're getting record cold in Western Washington for the next few days. This isn't MN but we may get down to 15º-18º tonight.
So are we here in Oklahoma. Ice storm has got us shut down this weekend. I will take a look at the link. Thanks for the help guys. So how big a girder would we need? I think we can handle the plumbing with some creative sheetrock but I have some more thinking to do about that.
Wimps!
Just drove down from Finland, MN to TC's
Duluth hills still pretty much shut down - Two Harbors had close to 35" of snow in past 2 days and this afternoon 4 degrees and windchills about -15 and headed straight down tonight. Getting chilly up here.
Fun watching Lake Superior rollers hitting the shore - the ore boats reporting 12-16' swells out there and maybe around 10'-12' hitting the rocks on shore. Beautiful but cold... c*
66 here today :), beginning to rain, supposed to convert to ice tomorrow just in time to drive the tractor in the Christmas parade Sat. Santa better hold on.
What is the span from post to wall?
10 feet from post to front and back walls. 14 feet from post to left hand or west wall. We escaped the ice, woke up to a couple inches of snow and still coming down ::)
The "tributary area" the beam will be supporting is that center 10' of the house X the 14' beam span, or 140 square feet. For the upper floor you can use 30 pounds per square foot for the live load + 10 psf for the dead load. So, 40 pounds per square foot X 140 square feet = 5600 lbs, uniformly distributed along the 14' span.
At 4 ply 2x12 in #2 SYP it blows out at about 150" span. It does work at 4 ply 2x12's in #1 SYP at 168". (check headroom under the beam if it's dropped under the joists, they can also frame into the sides of the beam. They can be smaller as their span just got cut in half, they could be #2 SYP 2x8's.
Hi there FarmerBill w* We really like the idea of using exposed beams for the upstairs floor, we actually wanted to do that for our house too. The main reasons we didn't go through with them were trying to figure out HVAC and plumbing lines. One idea that we had was to move the bathroom slightly farther back and transition to some type of drop ceiling for the back half of the house. We eventually decided to go with floor trusses 16"deep at the suggestion of the building inspector. Now working on plumbing and electrical rough ins we are really glad we did. The location you show that post at the corner of the stair opening we actually had to put at least a 6x6 post to support the opening(we used a 6x8 red cedar). One problem we have run into is we decided to use nine foot ceilings downstairs which messed up our calculations for stair clearance d*. Since your house will be about two feet longer this may not be an issue. Also we made a few changes to our mud room/half bath area after seeing the space framed up. I'm not sure if you will have central air installed, but the chase from the crawlspace to the second story didn't need to be as big as we had drawn. Our installer put it in the back right corner of the mud room, we shifted the half bath to the outside wall and were able to make an alcove for a stackable washer and dryer and cabinets in the space. This set up really made a lot of extra room in the actual "mud room". Hope some of this helps, and we really look forward to seeing your project progress. Feel free if you have any questions we'd love to help!
MWhutch,
Thank you for the words of encouragement, you have a lovely house. We hope we can be as successful with ours as yours. We are thinking instead of a dropped ceiling to hide the upstairs plumbing, we might do a raised floor in the bathroom.
Don_P, you mentioned egress windows. We were thinking French doors or big windows, or doors on the endwalls upstairs with balconies for fire escapes. Do you have any comments? See pic.
Also if we run a girder all the way across the living area supported by a post by the stove what size will the beam need to be. I would rather run that girder underneath the floor joists but if it is 12'' thick than that will get in the way.
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/Originalfirstdayelevation_zpsa2684a42.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/Originalfirstdayelevation_zpsa2684a42.jpg.html)
Based on that section view it looks like several things are changing. Doors or egress windows from the sleeping rooms are fine, that doesn't appear to work for the girl's rooms.
The width of the building in that last section is 16', we've been talking about a 20', the tie is too high, the main ceiling too low. Let's get that straightened out, I suspect that is an old drawing but who's to know ???. Once done, with a new floorplan if it has indeed changed, we'll need a span and trib width to calc a beam size.
Yes that is just an old cut and pasted drawing from FD to give an idea of what I meant. The span is still 20 ft. I will work on a real drawing in that new sketch up software and get it up on here. I just have to figure out how to use it.
Man that sketch up is difficult to use d* Is there a easy to use program to just do simple elevations and floorplans? For dummies ;D
"Man that sketch up is difficult to use"
If you have no drafting experience or autocad type things yes, its a learning curve
squared graph paper and a pencil and rubber work well, and can be photographed/ scanned and posted
I did all my preliminary dwgs with paper and pencil
only got into sketchup for the exterior look and the final build dwgs were with an autocad clone...permit office would probably accept nicely drawn scale dwgs as long as the detail is there.
I bought the plans from here- asked a huge ammount of technical questions which were well answered
My final plans were completely diferent than the plan set......but roughly matched page by page for the details and the way things were drawn..
I think I had 6 "final" sets then when the actual house frame was finished we completely changed the interior !
Scaled dwgs with graph paper is cheap easy and acceptable 1
Yeah we are sketching it out on graph paper. I am still trying to figure out the size of the window openings and total house length situation. If the beams are 3 2x6's sandwiched together then that gives you a 4.5"by 5.5 post so if you set them 3' o/c that means the windows will have to be 2ft 7 1/2 inches right???? If you wanted true 3ft windows then the total house length would have to be 33' 9" in order to have 4 3x5 windows and a 3x7 door. Are my calculations right?
Yes paper and pencil work just fine. I was drawing in sketchup and we kind of went off on a tangent on that. I'm faster in that now because it's quicker to modify when you get fairly deep into a project... pixels erase easy and for instance I only drew one post and one bent in those drawings and then simply copied them. But there is a learning curve for sure.When you have a distance from post to wall on the 20' wide we can recalc the beam.
Yes a 3 ply buildup is 4-1/2" wide. Windows come in many sizes, you'd have to look at the manufacturers specs for rough openings. A typical 3' door has a rough opening of 38", the frame is actually 37-1/2" wide and a rough opening is typically 1/2" oversized to allow a window or door frame to be shimmed into correct alignment withing the rough opening... framing is rarely absolutely correct and you don't want widows and doors out of plumb and level or that bind. Also price the windows and doors or have them already stockpiled before final drawings. I framed our house for very fine windows from one manufacturer and then went and priced them, they were unaffordable. I then had to scramble to find affordable stock good quality windows that would fit my existing openings. We got somewhat lucky but that was dumb. Actually, now they are 25 years old and all the seals have failed, they need replacing.
My concern is the spacing on the bents. We need to know what the spacing needs to be on the bents so we can determine the length of the house and the size of the windows. For example if we use a typical 3' door and the rough opening is 38" then the bents need to be spaced 38" apart or 40 1/4 o/c. (right?)
That will change the entire dimensions of the house. Our first thought is to do 3ft between bents but giving us a total house width of 33'9" but it sounds like that will not work if we want to use a 3ft door.
Your thoughts?
38" in the clear + half of a 4-1/2" post on each side puts the oc spacing at 42-1/2", at least on the door bent. Which then makes me think about stair opening requirements, not less than 36" clear width so as I see it that bent must also be at least 36" in the clear. Another thought, can the 3' door be on a gable end?
Not really we want the front of the house to be on the wide side. We are going for a specific look. Is 42-1/2" getting too wide between posts. If we make each bent 42-1/2" o/c then that means each floor joist will be 42-1/2" o/c. This is getting discouraging :-\
My original drawing had the bents 4' oc, 1-1/2" T&G of even modest grade is approved for this span for a subfloor. If there is a midspan beam supporting the joists they're still fine.
I went out and took some pics of the spot where we are going to build the house. We have some boards laid out to give an idea of where we will be sighting the house if it is to be a 20x34 footprint but still that has yet to be set in stone. The snow and cold has stopped our work, at least for this weekend. We also received the info package from FirstDay today it looks impressive, "Man, I just wish we could use local materials"
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/IMG_2223_zps17bf0dd2.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/IMG_2223_zps17bf0dd2.jpg.html)
Standing in what would be the front yard.
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/IMG_2224_zpsaaea009d.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/IMG_2224_zpsaaea009d.jpg.html)
Standing in the would be backyard, the pasture behind Suzuki is about 7 acres and we plan on planting it in garden vegetables, to sell in a roadside store.
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/IMG_2228_zps86f9e30d.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/IMG_2228_zps86f9e30d.jpg.html)
The creek about 75 yards from the proposed back yard
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/IMG_2222_zpsb0e3ddc8.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/IMG_2222_zpsb0e3ddc8.jpg.html)
The barn about 50 yards from the proposed house, We have plans to dry in a room of the barn and to sell vegetables out of it. It is only 75ft off a major highway.
man, story of our lives. Last year we had a pretty mild winter. It would have been a great time to build a house. But this year we have has nothing but wet cold weather. The last few snowstorms, along with frigid temps, throw in unexpected work travel and the holidays and we have accomplished nothing on our build. So here we are with no further progress to post on the forum.
However we recently traveled to Pensacola Florida for business, which would have been great if it hadn't been for the polar Vortex >:(
When we were there my family and I walked around the Pensacola Historical village, for house ideas. We both love those southern cottages on the gulf coast. One thing I noticed there was all the houses were on post and pier foundations. And they were 100 plus years old.
So my question is "Why are we going to the added expense and labor to build a stemwall ?
(https://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/bedgar2/postandpier_zps3aca5340.jpg) (https://s943.photobucket.com/user/bedgar2/media/postandpier_zps3aca5340.jpg.html)
I think your last post in December has answered your question. OK is nothing like FL as far as climate goes. On piers it is very difficult to insulate for your utilities in colder climates.
A crawlspace also allows for a critter free environment down under. If you can you might want to consider the option of a sealed crawlspace.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/building-unvented-crawl-space
That is what I did in my house. But I have to say that if I were building the foundation under this house again I would invest a bit more and do a basement.
The house in the picture appears to be sitting on modern piers mounted on a grade beam. Or... the foundation failed at least once before. It's an option however unless there is some reason to do this with its' associated engineering costs it's generally cheaper and easier to build prescriptively. The reason in the deep south is cooling, mold, and coon hounds. Google "pier and grade beam" for this foundation type. Having been down that road before, somewhere along the way you will likely also see the poorly built ones after hurricanes and remedies in a FEMA study.
Quote from: John Raabe on January 25, 2014, 12:15:12 PM
A crawlspace also allows for a critter free environment down under. If you can you might want to consider the option of a sealed crawlspace.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/building-unvented-crawl-space
That is what I did in my house. But I have to say that if I were building the foundation under this house again I would invest a bit more and do a basement.
Mr. Raabe, Just curious to know if you are able to use this crawlspace as a useful storage area, or if it's largely just "that place under the house"? We are considering a sealed crawlspace vs. open (lattice wrapped) pier and beam 20x40 universal cottage right now in Central Texas. I've been eyeballing another project in Oklahoma that used piers tied to a continuous concrete footer down the sides (cant find post at moment...) and that looks promising. My biggest concerns are adequate airflow to prevent mold, expansive clay problems, and the ever delightful western diamondbacks and their plethora of friends deciding to party in my crawlspace in winter.
Did the OP get a foundation up? would like to see it!
In my own we built half the house over a sealed crawlspace. There is a thin slab poured on the floor of the crawlspace, the excavation under that is pitched and swaled with a drain and gravel over that, then the rat slab. Ours is unconditioned but happily gives no trouble. The modern method is to include the sealed crawlspace in your HVAC envelope to avoid moisture/mold problems, a short conditioned basement. I do store stuff under there, it is an overflow pantry, taters, etc as well as the pile of pine and cedar beams and the old Opel 1900 engine... anybody need a '72 Opel motor, race rings, .010 over :D
In your soils though a post tensioned slab is common, or deep piers and grade beam, well, there are a number of ways. It would be better to look around locally and talk to good contractors for advice on what works locally.
Thank you John for posting that Green Building Advisor link on crawl space foundations. It provides a clear description of vented and unvented crawlspaces, and design considerations for a unvented one. I've been looking for such an explanation for a long time.
Quote from: Don_P on December 21, 2014, 02:48:06 PM
In your soils though a post tensioned slab is common, or deep piers and grade beam, well, there are a number of ways. It would be better to look around locally and talk to good contractors for advice on what works locally.
thanks Don_P,
a conditioned space, or at least enclosed, would be a nice place to put a trapdoor cellar if we built it high enough but I've cleared where I want my house to sit, and it's currently on a 1:20 slope that should carry away the 32 inches of rain that tends to fall all at once here. We also have a near constant breeze/wind from the south to keep air naturally flowing under the house if it's left exposed. So I guess the real debate is to go with the natural features of the land and put the house on piers, with the understanding that it will need to be leveled now and then (I'm fine with that), or build a concrete palace to put my little farm house on top of and surround it with drainage ditches and conditioned space. The houses that still stand around here after a 100 years all seem to have the bottoms exposed, but the most common foundations I see in our immediate area are very thin slabs on grade (probably because it's cheap, understood, and theres no codes). I better start my own build thread it seems, don't want to hijack this one...