CountryPlans Forum

My wife and I will begin building the 1.5 story shortly.  We have our materials list and are waiting on the plans.

Because we will be asking tons of questions and can't provide much in the way of answering questions we thought we could contribute back by chronicling our adventures along the way here, so the next person might have an easier time.

About us:  We are a husband wife couple in kentucky.  We have little to no building experience.  We are building the house on 6.29 acres in nicholas county kentucky.  We are excited about learning and working through the challenges.

The home will be built on a post and pier foundation.  As you will see the land is sloped and we don't want it graded.

To get things started off here is a picture of some of the land with a the approx location of where the house will be going (the blue box is where the house will go).  More soon....

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/1.jpg)

prohomesteader I an sure you will get all the advice you will need and then some.  Nicholas County here in the Mt. State as well.  Nice location for a house. Good Luck.

We looked at a lot of land in KY.  Very beautiful.  The one thing that I found out in KY is that you cannot do your own plumbing even if you are building the entire house yourself.  You might want to look into this and make plans accordingly.

BTW, that land looks familiar.  Did you buy it from Bruner Land?

@Phalynx - Yeah, we got it from Bruner Land.  It's on Pleasant Valley Farm.  We'll definitely be getting quotes from plumbers.  Thanks for the heads up.

@ redoverfarm - We need all of the help we can get.  Thanks for the well wishes!!

prohome, 

I thought it looked familiar.  We looked at that property and a couple of others.  We really liked everything about it except the restrictions.  We needed to live in our RV until the house was done.  The first person we talked to said it would be ok, just move it around from time to time but then the owner got involved and said abolsutely not.  We really wanted to be there.  It's beautiful. 

I even talked myself into allowing someone to do the plumbing.  I was absolutely scared of plumbing as I had never done it before.  Now that I have, I think it's really easy.  I can't believe KY won't let you do your own.  Check with your local county to find out everything required.

@phalynx - they've been real nice to us about the land, there are some restrictions but they are mild, you can even live on the land in a tent for up to a year to build you house.  our house should be done by that so it's good for us.

we do love the land though, great spot so far.

as for plumbing, that is one of the projects we had always planned on outsourcing so it is no problem for us

Are you sure about living in a tent?  That was pretty much spelled out in the restrictions.  I think it was no more than 30 days?  That's where we got hung up.  We were nearly ready to sign.  I agree, they were very nice people. 

sure thing you can ;)

12.)  No tent, camper, school bus, or recreational vehicles shall be used as a residence, either temporary or permanent except for the purpose of monitoring building of home for a period not to exceed one year.

you can check them all here:

http://www.brunerland.com/Kentucky/DarrellPleasantValleyFarm.htm

we got lot 6

I'm actually glad the covenants are there, I know my neighbor can't plop down a 1962 single wide and start a puppy mill right next door now ;)  other than that the restrictions are quite mild imho

HA!, they changed it.  I just found the restrictions they sent me.  It was 30 days.. :)  Maybe I made a bigger impact that I thought...    Well that's pretty cool. You guys got a nice place. I liked EVERY restriction except the 30 days one.  I didn't want a puppy mill either.  Reading through these, they altered them quite a bit.  Ours shows a limit to the # of chickens per acre which would have allowed us 4.  The swine was limited to 1 per 4h student. 

I am going to look at the property again..  :)  Maybe you need a new neighbor...  Now, if I can just talk my wife into 2 homes.... :)  Maybe I can finish this one first.

thanks for doing the legwork for me phalynx, I've got a year to camp now  :)

would love to have you as a neighbor, I could use your expertise in building ;)

Update:  Got the plans today!  I will need to sit down and examine them thoroughly.

a couple notes

1.  Love the "read me first", really helps get acquainted with things

2.  wish there was a zip drive with a digital copy of the plans, i reckon to make copies I have to copy the folded ones,  no biggie but I'm prone to spilling things and don't want to destroy them accidentally and would like a backup to print from

here's the plans that arrived in ky safely today

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/2-plansarrive.jpg)

Went and bought a shed for $450 today and a riding lawnmower for $250 yesterday.  I'll try to find some time to study the plans over the next few days, will be mowing some grass and putting together the shed though.

Head to a copy shop and make yourself about 6 copies.  John allows this for the building of 1 home.  Keep the original locked away.  "play" with the copies.  Johns plans are VERY simple and easy.  I reccommend that you use a middle beam for a total of 3 beams.  I built using the 2 beams per John's plans.  I used No 1 2x12's 16" on center.  Although they are very strong, the bounce is horrible.  I put in a make shift temp beam and it cleared it right up.  I don't know if the I-beam joists remove this flex.

ordered the framing book.  made a few copies of plans and looked through them.  mowed the building site for first time, ordered hughes internet for the site to be connected when building, got the small shed almost done

I'm not sure where to ask questions about the plans, here in this thread would make sense for people following along or in the "plans questions section"?  I'll put them here from now on  or let me know if you all want them elsewhere.

I got some help lined up for in a couple weeks to do the posts.  I have some basic questions first, there seems to be 10580 ways to do the posts, but since I will have some digging help, it's time to pick one and get a solid understanding.

I plan on doing wood post foundation http://countryplans.com/foundation/index.html

1.  the frostline here is 18".  How much deeper should I dig the hole below the frost line?  or how deep should the holes be?

2. my soil is clay.  the plans say the hole should be 24", is the hole round or square?

3. what's the best way to dig a 24" wide hole?  I assume an auger doesn't go that wide or would kill me doing it.

4. squaring, the plan is 20x30, when measuring do I go from the outside of the posts or center?

5. can I just use a level and a 2x4 to level the posts or should I have the beams out there to connect and level?

6. review - dig hole, fill with 8" of packed and crushed gravel, lay down a 2X10 piece of pt wood, place pt 6x6 on top of 2x10 and fill with soil cement mix.

thanks all ;)

1. - I think the 24" should do it

2.  The foundation doesn't care about the shape - just the bearing area needs to be big enough - clay can cause other things to consider if it is heaving or expansive  clay - well drained usually keeps the problems away.  Is the clay wet or soft in the bottom of the hole.  I have clay here but it is dry and basicly claystone until wet and mixed so no problem.

3.  Backhoe can do a good job on 24" wide.

4.  Whatever it takes to get proper spacing per plan.  If it shows centers then drive a temporary nail to hook the tape - most have a nail head slot in the hook on the tape, then get centers of the rest from there.

Easy way to square - 3, 4. 5   or 6,8,10, or 30, 40, 50  - example - 6 feet one way -from point "A" - 90 degrees off "A" go 8 feet --when square the points from the end of the 6 feet and end of the 8 feet will measure 10 feet diagonally.  The rest of the sides continue on of course - temporarily mark these on your framing with a pencil or nail etc.

Over all corner to corner after joists and rim joist are placed will get it perfect so don't nail things all down hard until this final ceross squaring - Parallel is OK but leave it loose to move the whole thing corner to corner diagonally if your design allows that - makes things easier.  A sledge hammer and block of wood  2x etc will trevcent marring and breaking.  A steel 50' or 100' takpe will come in handy for the corner squaring- not cloth tape - I have seen too many of them stretch.

5.  Put the posts in extra tall - use a laser if available or a good quality string level to get all tops marked even then cut them to the proper height.  Turn the string or other level the opposite direction to see if it is accurate within reason.  There are other ways to do this - very accurate level and long very straight 2x to bridge  from post to post to transfer level (none as good as an accurate laser IMO though.)  Some like a water level though they have their own set of problems.

6.  go deep enough to keep the post below the frost level on top of the gravel IMO

I will just re-eterate what Glenn has said with a little extra.

The bottom of the concrete is what needs to be below the frost line.  So if it is 18" then I would make it 24".  If you are going to add gravel then dig deeper to allow.

Although I haven't read the plan on this particular cabin it seems to me that 24" diameter is pretty big considering you are going to place a 6"X6" post.  Maybe I am wrong but is the 24" the diameter or the depth.  18" should be well enough IMO with concrete surrounding.  Someone enlighten me also. As for the shape it is usually easier to dig round as the post hole diggers are make to dig this shape.  With a 24" deep hole it seems useless to rent a backhoe which will probably disturb more dirt than needed.  I would opt for hand digging but I do most of the time for fence post so other than a gate post it's not that hard.

When squaring I usually go to the outside corners and measure from that outside corner to the diagonal post and read it on the outside corner.  It is easier to get the four corner post square and then string line the middle ones.  Brace the post well after they are square to prevent movement when pouring the concrete. 

As glenn said I would either use a laser or builders level (20X) is fine.  Laser makes it a one man job whereas the builders level requires two people

It sounds as if you are going to bury the post rather than use a Simpson Fastner on top of the concrete.  If that is what you are doing IMO I would refrain from putting a 2X10 in the hole under the post.  Just another thing to rot.

Well that's my $.02 worth

thanks all

the clay is super hard at just a few inches, but soft if it gets wet.  it's terrible to dig in it unless it's wet, and even after hours of rain it only gets wet a few inches deep, it's literally hard as rock almost the rest of the way

round does sound easier and the good point about the round tools.  the plans require 15 holes to be dug.  my bro might get access to a bobcat with a 16inch bucket digger on it, fingers crossed

24inches does sound pretty wide for a 6inch post but that's what the specs say for clay.

yes I was going to bury the post, as for the 2x10 at the bottom it's what the foundation notes show http://countryplans.com/foundation/index.html

thanks also for the info on the depth.  18" frost line plus 8" of gravel bottom leaves me at each hole at least 26" deep. I'll probably make them all 30" then to be safe.

need to invest in a laser level also it appears.

post measures are from outside and centers on middle posts per plans

You don't have to have the laser but if you can afford it you will enjoy it. 

A  cheaper one may get you by but about $400 gets you a great one complete with a full kit of accessories.

Look like
$350 at home depot.  This is the one I use. 

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100015661&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&PID=1319015&cm_mmc=CJ-_-shopping_com-_-D25X-_-100015661&cpncode=07-67117206-2&URL=http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/BuildLinkToHomeDepot?linktype=product&id=100015661&cm_mmc=CJ-_-shopping_com-_-D25X-_-100015661&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_13736960



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00080QFBU/sr=1-14/qid=1217983387/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1217983387&sr=1-14&seller=

Got any buddies in the business??

I borrowed one from a friend when I was ready to cut my 34 posts to grade.

Sure was nice!

prohomesteader like Glenn said set them all a little long.  Then find someone with a laser level and in about 5-10 minutes to mark them and then cut them off later.
Maybe cost you $15-20 for their time.  A laser level is something that you might never use again.  I am constantly using my builders level or I wouldn't have bought it just borrowed from time to time.

ouch, thanks all.  looks like I'll be looking to borrow a laser level.  shocked at the sticker price

speaking of expenses,  I haven't moved any dirt yet but here's my expenses so far

$350 Generator (gotta have power)
$18   Framing book
$160 plans & parts list
$1000 1989 chevy silverado (my tempo wasn't hauling this stuff, bought a used truck)
$500 8x10 metal shed with wood foundation (gotta lock stuff up from thieves)
-------
$2028 Total

And I haven't even bought a single nail for the house yet   ???

A good string level could do it also - string tight and remember to reverse it to be sure it is correct.  Probably not as accurate as the laser.

Get a good 4 foot level also - Stabila is good. For small areas,  you can use a good straight (eyeball down the edge) board or joist to transfer level post to post with a good quality level sitting on top of it.  Draw your reference line from the main corner.. - block the board up along side the post - temp nail it to the side of the post at the ref. line with it being blocked fairly level - go to the other end with the level sitting on top - raise and block the board - make the post and continue.  Not as good as a laser or good tight string level but will do pretty good if done very carefully

sitting in a hotel in boston, here's a quick update / few more questions

updates

my bro and I squared off the site and marked/staked the post holes

a backhoe is scheduled to break ground wednesday morning at 8am :) exciting times ;) they will be digging the holes for the foundation posts, hopefully I can get some pictures up by next weekend

internet is scheduled to go in thursday, hughes net dish, equipment will go in the shed for now.


questions:

1.  is there a certain type of gravel to use in the foundation holes?  I'm planning a 5 part gravel to 1 part cement mix however a search of this site doesn't mention anything about the size or type of gravel, I reckon it doesn't matter but wanted to ask.

2.  http://www.countryplans.com/builtupbeam.html  Am i going crazy or is the math on that page wrong? My builtup beam should be six inches wide i think but  2+1/2+2+1/2+2 = 7 inches, the text there says it makes 6 inches but the picture shows 5.5 inches,,, what in the world?

I need to make a 30' built up beam but not sure how 3 2x12's and 2 1/2 inch pieces of plywood all together will = 6 inches thickness or any other suggestions for making the beam

3.  on the 20x30 are there beams at the 20' side?  I know there are two beams on the 30' side that the ijoists rest on but is it just ijoists on the gable ends with plywood sheething going down the side to cover up where a beam should be?  I can't tell by the plans how many beams are required or where they go

thanks all

1. Crushed will lock together better than round.

2.  2x12 are only 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 inches thick - not 2 inches unless you get rough cut 2x boards at full dimension from a mill -- in that case leave out the plywood.

i reckon the size of the gravel isn't as important then as long as it's not round.

that makes much more sense about the beam dimensions now, I knew the wood was smaller but wasn't aware that was factored in to that page, it all makes more sense now

still not sure about the beams on the short sides yet though ;)

thanks again glenn, you rock  [cool]

I couldn't find my plans but the end walls are non bearing -

Found them -- wife straightened up my pile of......I mean filing system...

John shows on Page 1A beams at gable ends can be eliminated if no cantilevered floor joists are supported - such as for a porch - also eliminating the end center pier.  He shows Double Joist at the ends in the written note, in that case. 

He shows 2x12 select struct or I-joists.

These things will show up as you spend time reading all of the fine details and notes on the prints.  I'm a bit more used to it than some - but you will get it as you continue studying and become intimate with them -- then about the time you are extremely familiar with them you will be done.... :)

prohomesteader The following link shows the different aggregates and their demensions.  I use # 57 crushed limestone as it has the best (natural)compaction.  It can be compacted to increase it's density but generally the natural shape locks in the stone to each other and not much compactions can be achieved beyond that. 


http://www.alconco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=272

thanks glenn, you've been a great help, it is all making sense now ;)  the post and floor part so far

at rendover - did you bother with adding cement to the mix or just the stone only?  I'm thinking of using the 5part rock to 1part cement just cause it seems logical to have "some" concrete in there ;)  thanks for the link also

can't wait for this weekend.

My pleasure - hope it works well for you.

back from our first days of building.

one thing I haven't seen mentioned much but I will pass along is that

building is HARD HARD work!  Prepare for sore muscles.

I got some pictures I'll upload in the next few posts to update our progress:

my brother and I squared the land off for the digging to happen

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation1.jpg)

we paid a friend to dig the holes with a backhoe

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation2.jpg)

the holes were supposed to be 24x24 inches but ended up HUGE, about 2.5x3feet, bigger the better though

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation3.jpg)

prohomesteader looks like that is a Teramite.  They are made in Charleston.  You can do a lot of work with one if the soil is not too rocky. 

thanks for the name rendover

next the wood was delivered

the truck pulls up, crosses their fingers that nothing gets damaged, and dumps it all

this is enough wood to do the posts, beams, and floor to the completed subfloor

cost = $1600

(note, the price could have been a bit cheaper but I forgot to measure the post heights and didn't want them too short so I told the people "make them 6x6 that are , um, 12 foot long to be safe"  OUCH they were heavy to move, but I can use the tops for other projects now)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation4.jpg)

another delivery the same day, the gravel is delivered.  we went with 25 tons of #58 gravel which was 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick and chipped/square not round, the extra gravel will be used as a temporary driveway where our tire tracks go, it's starting to get muddy

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation5.jpg)

I should also mention I picked up about $300 of simpson connectors, nails, and concrete at the hardware store (concrete is optional for the holes, we mixed one bag with 1 load of gravel for luck ) ;)

the holes cost $300 to dig

next up we filled the holes with 8" of gravel and kept using a tamper to pack it down

we then placed a 2x12 cut to 12 inches on the bottom of each post and put 5 nails in the bottom (top left, top right, middle center, bottom left, bottom right) and 1 toenailed in every side.

then gently placed every post in each hole, leveled, and aligned them all and triple checked the house was square.  you can see how crazy tall the poles are in this next picture

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation6.jpg)

this next pic was taken after all the holes were filled, it took BUNCHES of work to fill those holes with gravel by the wheel barrel full and then tampen each load down

one last note on the next picture, you will notice center piers, we took a few people's advice and are making a center beam, not sure if 10 foot spans on it are ok (eg 1 pole in center) but that's what we have right now, this also allowed us to go with smaller wood for the joists, 2x8x20, according to the wood store that's what is required for the new spans

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation7.jpg)

The PT lumber is heavy.  The white wood later will be alot lighter.  Making good progress.  I didn't answer you last question regarding the mix ratio.  It sounds as if you are making a dry mix for the holes.  I really haven't done that much of dry mixes.  The wet mixes for footings is 1:2:4 for aggregate under 1-1/2".  1 being the cement, 2 being the sand and 3 being the gravel.  If it is a wet mix then you will need to use sand to bind everything together.  Just the cement and the gravel will make it brittle.

Good Luck

remembered another thing we spent some money on, $299 for a 3500watt generator.  need some electric probably ;)

next up we cut the poles using a circular saw and a reciprocating saw to cut the last little bit in the center,  becuase the poles were so tall they would break reciprocating saw blades too easy

we also attached simpson braces to the tops of the newly cut piers

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation8.jpg)

the end result of an extended weekend with help is the next picture.  you will see all poles standing, backfilled, cut, level,square, and the first piece of wood going on to build the beam.

the wife and I will try to build the beam in place so we won't require help to lift the thing onto the poles

this is what the property looks like as I'm typing this,  we will get back to work in a couple days.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/foundation9.jpg)

thanks again for all your support so far all  :)

thanks redover, it was dry except for 1 bag of crete mixed in for each hole

the holes are real solid, it's all about the tamping, the more you tamp, the more solid the poles get, I also reckon the more gravity helps the gravel settle, the more it will really get solid

lol, it will be nice dealing with lighter wood, I'm also hoping it's lighter on the wallet

prohomestead I am going to have to apologize for any misunderstanding I derived from your discriptions.  No wonder you are wore out.  I would have cut the post with 2-3" margin for levelness (rough demensions) before setting them in the holes.  A lot less to wrestle around.  Then came back and cut them accurate later.  Well the end result was the same I guess.  It was ashame you didn't keep the Teramite around to use the bucket to transfer the gravel to the holes with instead of the wheel borrow.

Redoverfarm - the backhoe was paid by the hour so we wanted to do what we could by hand, digging was too hard in the solid dry clay but gravel was obtainable but it was difficult.

I recommend to anyone else doing it to have help come at that time when filling holes

yeah the 2x12's were a wrestling match but we won ;)  and now I've got some great left over 6x6 wood

Hey prohomesteader, I found one of your neighbors :)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5SVXy1f8kI

They bought the 6 acre tract #8.  They are going to build a strawbale house.

Thought it was funny how small the world is.

@phalynx, that's me in the video, we were originally going to try a straw bale home

update:

got the beams done.  we used 6" pole barn nails from both sides and construction adhesive plus a few c-clamps to hold it all together.  I'm not happy with the result so far because each day I see the wood pull away leaving gaps in the beam.  the wood was all slightly warped in different directions and that's causing it (eg we squeezed it together to build the beam, the warped wood is fighting back to pull apart).  I think adding some bolts will do nicely

here's a picture of the floor going together

(http://prohomesteader.com/countryplans/floor1.jpg)

traditionally people lay the all the joists and then do all the floor.  We did it "as we went" and found it much easier to line up the seems in the boards so they all get to rest on a joist

here's the finished floor:

(http://prohomesteader.com/countryplans/floor2.jpg)

note:  the front posts are 6 feet tall so we'll be adding the bracing to them eventually.

note:  we used decking/exterior wood screws to screw the subfloor instead of nailing

next steps:

ordering the wood for the walls, we start framing this weekend

picking out windows sizes - the plans call for windows that are really BIG, we don't need an 8 foot window in the house so we'll be going smaller or the same on most of them.  We also want to add a window to the other side of the front door.

calling the truss company in the area for a quote.

can't think of anything else I spent money on since last time except maybe another $60 in nails and screws.

I'm looking at the plans for site built trusses and the they don't look too difficult to do and might be cheaper than custom built ones

this has some good photos of site built trusses for others to check out

http://www.countryplans.com/cowan.html

my questions about them if anybody knows:

1.  how long should the wood be for each rafter?  i think I read 2x6x16' somewhere but want to be sure

2.  what are the notched vents with screens that are called for in the plans?  is there any picture floating around the forum of the vents?  most of the pictures I see are lacking the vents

thanks again all.

The traditional dancing on the deck picture, that's good. :)

There is not always a standard length on the rafters.  It can vary depending on your roof pitch, choice of rafter tails etc.  I haven't checked John's plans at this time - have to go to work.

I would suggest laying them out on the floor with a chalk line and measuring to be accurate.

Quote from: prohomesteader on August 27, 2008, 09:54:33 AM
@phalynx, that's me in the video, we were originally going to try a straw bale home

Well, you don't need to meet new neighbors then I guess.   d*

As for bracing.  Go ahead and do it now.  As you start to build up, the building will shake when major motions and kinda makes you feel uncomfortable.  Putting in corner bracing now will make you feel all the more solid.  We ended up putting 45 degree bracing on all corners and then put in 6 2x6 diagonals from the outside beams to the inside.  These are attached to the 2x12's underneath.. You would attach to your center beam.  It will make all the difference in the world.

thanks glenn, that's the brother on the deck, we love having the floor done and being "on top of the world" way up there ;)

the pitch is 12/12 per plans

plan width is 20 feet with a optional 1'4" eave extension

I might try the chalk line if noone comes up with the length.  seems like the answer should be laying around here somewhere the standard length of each rafter.  can't find it on the plans.

thanks @phalynx - will do it sooner than later.  it's surpsingly solid right now except for the very front where it's tallest but I can see what you are talking about that it will get more wobbly as we build.  I will also check your photos out again to see how you have it.

Here's a handy online calculator for gable and hip roof rafters, stairs, gazebos and other stuff. I've used this for both my gazebo and cabin. Your choice of feet/inches or metric.

http://www.blocklayer.com/Roof/GableEng.aspx


You adjust the birds mouth cuts, rafter tail length, rafter ends plumb or not, ridge thickness, etc.

Using the site built truss diagram on Sht. 6 of the 20' wide 1.5 story cottage plans (http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/50.html) the top structural rafter/chord is made from a straight 2x6. If you square cut the end of the rafter you can probably use a 16' length and get about a 16" overhang. If you plumb cut the tails for a fascia and gutters you will need to order 18 footers.

You will want to snap the first truss out on the deck before cutting any wood and to confirm any adjustments with your actual framed dimensions. Then, assuming both ends of the building are the same width, you can use the first truss as a template for the rest.

The diagram of the vent blocking is on the lower left corner of the same plan page. You can gang cut these ahead of time and staple insect screen over the vent openings. Use these as spacer blocks as you layout the trusses @ 24" o/c - two for each truss. See the wall and eave detail at the lower right of that plan page. It shows a metal bracket that secures the truss to the wall plates and vent block and protects the whole thing against uplift and heavy winds. You can use other angle brackets but that is a heavy duty one.

Note that you don't have to have the interior 2x6's in place when you place the trusses. They will be lighter and easier to install if you put these on later. They are there to provide the required insulation depth at the sloped ceiling.

thanks again all for the helpful info on the roof.  after looking at many pictures here and talking with a local person we decided to do the basic gable framing with 2x10's (by 18') and a ridge beam.

we framed the outside walls this weekend, we still need to do the second header

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/framing1.jpg)

two things that were EXTREMELY helpful this weekend (besides family helping)

1.  a nail gun (borrowed)

2.  the "house framing" book suggested by the countryplans site http://www.countryplans.com/books.html , I've also seen it for sale at lowes

here's a pic from the front

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/framing2.jpg)

the order of wood for the walls framing, sheathing, roof framing, roof sheething, plastic wrap for the house, felt to cover the roof was $2900

next up is doing the internal walls, the loft, sheathing the outside and then starting the roof

Fantastic progress.  It's going to be hard to wipe the smile from your faces really soon.  I have become partial to the 1.5 story and love watching them go up.  Were there any permits required in your county to start your own construction?

lol @ phalynx - I'm ready to move in now ;)

no permits were required, no inspections, and no codes

the only thing that is required is septic and water to be inspected where we are

Hey pro,  what can you tell me about tract 7 and 8 next to you.  Is that dirt road an easement or active?  Also, does it go down hill towards tract 8 or uphill?

Thanks for the pricing info prohomesteader.  Looks like you are doing great. :)

lot 8 isn't much to look at imho

lot 7 is a mix of flat and hill, more hill.  however it's pretty cheap at 32000 for 12 acres (after the 10% discount)

the road is a county road but was privately built, haven't got all the details but the county trims it's edges of weeds and it was paved a long time ago, one lane, gravelly now.  lot 7 has road access on both sides, abners mill is for sure a county road, they just added a guard rail last weekend.

if you are serious about wanting more info I can do a walk around with the video camera for you, however I'm off the to the farm now again so it might be a few days before I get it done

@phalynx - I see you used 6x6 bracing for your corners, how didi you secure the 6x6 to the beams?  seems like a heavy piece of wood to be hanging there.

I've got plenty of leftover 6x6 material and would like to use it for some bracing but would be interested in the method you used to attach them.  thanks

pro, thanks for the offer.  We may actually take you up on it, but not immediately.  On the road, I am actually interested in the dirt road that cuts across tract 6-7 going to the homestead behind it.  Is this an easemented road? in use? etc..

On the 6x6's, we used 10-12" lag bolts.  PRE-DRILL!! otherwise you will split the wood.  It's a very tight connection.  If you have an impact wrench, you'll want it.  Otherwise you'll have forearms of steel.  You might look like Popeye afterwards.

i see what you are talking about now.  it's not actually a road, but tire tracks in the grass

a younger farmer bought lot 3, his name is james, he stopped by and introduced himself and was super friendly/helpful about local info, the only reason he bought it was he wanted to use the barn

there is no easement there however after talking to the guy we have no problem allowing him to cross our land to the barn once in a blue moon.  the choice is yours though, he could also have access around on the main road just takes him a bit longer to get there.

so he owns farmland on one side of the lots and a barn on the other side, that's where the road/tire tracks come from

he will also be cutting our 6 acres of grass/weeds/hay for us this week (he takes the hay bales) so it should nicer looking and not overgrown again real soon, can't wait.

Did you mean he bought lot 1 with the barn? or was it lot 9 that the road connects to.  Also, what would you describe the dirt as?  Is it rocky? sandy? clay?

@phalynx - yeah, he owns lot #9 and it has a barn on it.  the land is clay, rock solid when dry and after a good rain very manageable for the first few inches to a foot

tried doing some sheathing, this was one of the more frustrating things I've tried so far.  at first I tried lifting the panels with brute force and up a ladder, but after dropping them a dozen or more times I am now using a nylon rope rated at 350 lbs, going inside and pulling the board up

currently I only own a couple 6 foot ladders.  I'm all ears on how to manage doing things at a height and safely, the 12/12 pitch roof is gonna be a challenge

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/bed1.jpg)

also got the first interior walls framed

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/bed2.jpg)

anybody know the exact dimensions of the washer/dryer room down to the inch?

off for a day now,  this weekend hopefully will be finishing the internal wall framing and starting on the loft.

Ah, there is a trick to the sheathing.  Glenn had the tip somewhere and I used it.  Basically, use 2 2x4s vertically and put a crosspiece on the front of the 2x4's and then cross pieces on the top and bottom on the back.  Think of a ladder 10' tall with 1 step at the very bottom on the back, one step in the middle on the front, and one step at the top on the back.  You walk the osb to the ladder, place the top of the osb on the middle run, then walk/flip the osb up.  It will stand up basically 5-6' off the ground where you can actually pick it up.  Also, put a few small nails in the studs where the next sheet will go and it will sit on there while you nail.

Update, I stole it from Jimmy Cason.
Here is a pic.  (https://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c371/casonjimmy/jig.jpg)

Well I would go ahead and buy a extension ladder.  Werner is a good brand. Fiberglass heavy duty.  You will need it as time goes on.  As for the sheeting it can be done by yourself but is so much easier with two people.  You might take a couple of 16d nails and drive them into the studs about half way in at the location just about where the bottom would be. Then once you get the sheets  up to there they should hold the sheet(footing) until you get it positioned and attached.  Then remove the nails and move to the next location.  

As far as lifting the sheets up without a ladder. You can drive 16d again about 6" from the top and 12" from the ends of the sheet.  Take your rope and loop it on the inside and outside of the nail and tie.    Do this on both ends.  Now with the middle of the rope over the top plate and out the stud wall.  You can probably pull on the center to lift adjusting your hold one direction or the other to lift it level.  If you have your nails in place once the sheet reaches that point it should rest on the nails until you can tie off the rope. Yes the rope will be in the way but if it supported on the nails(into studs) you can just lift the shet and push back through the opening.  Pulleys and winches will work if it is too much to lift.

The roof can be accessed from the loft floor once done.  Then nailers or roof jacks will give you footing for yourself and the sheet you are handling.  

Maybe you can find a local to give you a hand for a meager pay. Be well worth the money.  

you can also use a C-clamp on one end of sheet and pull it up behind you.you can also attach a rope higher than sheet needs to be,run it threw said handle, bring other end back up to where you need it and pull sheet up. clamp acts almost like a pulley on sheet. this would work well with the skids posted earlier too i think. i hope i explained this well enough, i don't know how to download a pic to this site. d*

great advice all, I used a mixture of everything

I bought a 20 ft werner ladder, I placed some nails in the studs where the panels went, I pushed the panels up the ladder instead of using boards to push it up  (felt like bench pressing), then used a nail gun to nail.

here's the nail gun we bought, should have bought the this from day one.  It's a cordless pasload.  They are EXPENSIVE but worth every penny.  All together with nails, refills for the gas, and gun cost us $430.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/nail1.jpg)

Here's a view from far away.  I spent a couple days mowing the hay with an old lawnmowever.  I reckon it wasn't worth the cost/benefits of the farmer taking the hay from it.  You can also squint and see the panels going up.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/nail2.jpg)

Here's the panels.  This is where we are now, wrapped with about 8 foot of panels.  There is small opening in the back to get in and out.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/nail3.jpg)

You can actually here an echo in the place now, can't wait to finish the siding an dmove on to the roof although I'm dreading trying to get the 3/4 inch panels for the roof up there.

Inside the place, starting to look like something from on the deck now

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/nail4.jpg)

Looks good.  I had an old Paslode gun I liked but bought it used and it quit working after while.

They take 30 degree angle nails so you are stuck buying theirs if I remember right.  Still a handy tool.

prohomes nice toy. Too high dollar for me. I just have the Bostic.  Just curious why you chose a gas nailer than a air powered. I think they make a air nailer as well.  The cost to me of the gas will pay for a compressor not too far down the road.  You would have the compressor for other jobs later on like pumping up the tires on your farm tractor to make you hay with. ;D ;D 

You are making good progress.  The shorter pieces of sheeting will be lighter if that is any comfort.

It's definately more cordless..  I heard that Paslode was moving away from the gas operated nailers though and going to pneumatic. 

Prohome,,,  great progress...  making jealous looking at the property....  STOP POSTING PICTURES!!!!!!  ;D

@glen - yeah as far as i know you need to buy the pasload name brand only

@glenover - I liked not being tied to an air compressor.  Should really help when doing the roof.  The cartridges of gas are only $6 and last for about 1500 nails from what I see so far.

my wallet says sell the nail gun when the project is done, my nailing hand/arm says keep it forever.

@phalynx - lol, looks real good mowed :)  and the people were driving around to the barn and loading it with tobacco, they aren't using that "road" or pass in the back of the property but staying on the county road

the cordless was only $40 higher if i remember right.  $230 vs. $270 for the gun only

videos when researching framing on youtube

how to frame the roof?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWQouYEaKI

the alternative to not having a nail gun, have a hammering party

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYjGjKeoYpg

Amazing progress in such short order.  Are you working weekends only or full time on the construction?  Thank you for keeping such a close track on the dollars spent.  My wife and I hope to be doing this with in the next 2-5 years, so I am reading all I can to be "well learned" by that time.  I am very interested to see the $$ tally over time.

Do you camp on the site full time? or is the camping just during multiple day construction stretches?

Best of luck.

@soomb - I work weekends and 2-3 days in the week.  I would do it 7 days a week if i could but my body couldn't handle it.

the only paid help we had was digging the holes for the posts.  the rest of the time has been me and the wife with family sometimes on the weekends.

the two times I've needed/appreciated the help the most was when doing the piers/filling the holes with gravel and with the wall raising's, so far ;)

I will for sure do the $ tally at the end.

thanks for the reply.

Is the camping (tent) just when on site?

Prohome, 

I don't see the cut-ins for the ledger board that goes down the 30' length of wall.  Were you planning on cutting this in afterward or planning on doing something else for the 2nd floor support?

@soomb - yeah the tent with the canopy over it worked nicely.  I just moved the tent inside the house today to get up and away from the spiders

@phalynx - we aren't doing the full second story, just a loft.  the ledger is there just in the back.  I actually messed it up a bit and cut it 6 inches too high but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

oh... another question: Full time place or weekend get-a-way?

@soomb - this will be our full time place.  Can't wait.  Going from a home with almost no yard to 6 acres  :)

here's an update

finishing up the sheathing at the top and starting to wrap the house.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrap1.jpg)

Here is a contraption I'm building to be able to reach all of the rafters.  Notice the loft isn't done all the way.  That's because I'm going to use that wood to place across this contraption to make a temporary floor that is only a few feet wide and spans the front of the house.  this should allow me access to the ridge beam and rafters, then I will disassemble this when done.

It's under construction right now, needs some more supports, vertical and horizontal.  More on the roof below.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrap2.jpg)

We are going to try doing the roof in the next week.  I'm most nervous about the height and our ability to get the wood that high and manipulate it enough to build it correctly.

I'm going to lowes today to inquire about what type of safety harness I can buy to keep me safe.

I'm debating lowering the pitch to a 10/12 instead of 12/12 to make it easier on us for building now and later.  Would this change make a big difference to the living space in the loft or to helping us building the roof?  Thanks all ;)

good for you.  quite an adventure you are on.

Quote from: prohomesteader on September 19, 2008, 08:41:23 AM
I'm debating lowering the pitch to a 10/12 instead of 12/12 to make it easier on us for building now and later.  Would this change make a big difference to the living space in the loft or to helping us building the roof?  Thanks all ;)

My thoughts are that a pitch change from 12/12 to 10/12 will do little or nothing in making it easier to work on. For me anything over 5/12 is for someone else to do. But that's just me speaking. As my age has increased the pitch of the roofs I am okay with has decreased.  Some day I'll be happiest with a flat roof I suppose.   ;D

As for interior room, the headroom will decrease some nearest the side walls. I'd draw it up on paper to scale and measure.

I agree with Don that a 10/12 pitch will not be easier to work on.

You can see what it would do to the space by laying a bit of tracing paper over your cross section on Sht 2. It will narrow the width of the usable headroom and make the cross tie ceiling narrower and less able to triangulate the roof pressures. I don't think it is a good idea.

Doing a steep roof safely and properly involves good help, good roof jacks and a good harness. It's not the best place to learn brand new roofing skills so many folks get professional help with this part of the project.

I would work it out somehow to keep the 12:12 if it was me.  In my opinion anything less on this type of house compromises its looks and puts it in the modern conventional house group - but that's just me, and I don't have brains to stay off of a steep roof.

The only roof I have fallen off of was a 1/2:12 pitch patio roof. ::) [crz]

Stay with 12/12. Build scafolding, staging etc to make your work safer and easier. Use roof jacks to work on the steep roof. heres what I did.

(http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/218084.JPG)

(http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/314082.JPG)

very nice, good for you. do you mind if i ask you what price you paid for 6 acres? i am still looking.

@apaknad - I paid $24900 for 6.29 acres.  there are lots still for sale around me:  http://www.brunerland.com/Kentucky/DarrellPleasantValleyFarm.htm

@scotta - thanks for the pictures, the roof looks even steeper than I imagined.  I think we can handle the rafters but I'm second guessing the outside roof work now.

@john @glenn @mountain @soomb thanks for the great advice.  Overwhelmingly I think I'll be keeping the 12/12 pitch now ;)

the following hit home considering i can't remember ever being on a roof before and I've made at least one mistake in almost every new thing I've tried so far

QuoteIt's not the best place to learn brand new roofing skills

the roof jacks were $7 per piece at lowes however the harness/safety/fall arrest kit was $149.

I'm now thinking of keeping 12/12 and I think we can do the rafters ourselves, will try and do the rafters this next weekend/week but I'm looking around to hire out putting on the sheathing and felt (and the metal roof later).  If it's not too expensive (what's reasonable to pay someone to do the sheathing and felt?) this will be the route we go.

Just bought 32 H10 simpson hurricane ties at $1.58 each for just over $50.

good price on the land prohome, when i did my roof i just tied one end of a rope to the opposite side of the roof i was working on and the other end around my belt then waist. saved money but this is up to you to decide.

Well - if you tie your rope to the trailer hitch on the pickup, take the keys away from the wife. [crz]

Prohome,,  I completely disagree with everyone on the 12/12 vs. 10/12.  ( I feel alone when I disagree with John, the actual architect)  We decided to go with a 10/12 over a 12/12 because at 20' wide, it's 2 feet higher in the middle.  Granted, it's only 2 feet, but we played with the ridge beam on ladders and that 2' made a huge difference in comfort.  As far as losing head room on the 2nd floor, I think it moved the 6' headroom line about 6" inward.  Over all, I think it was the right decision.  It was definately safer for us.

I still "vote" for a shed dormer on the back side roof!

Glad I added one.  It gave me space for a 4 x 5ft half bath in the loft and more useable headroom.

Just my 2 cents.

Bruce

we went ahead with the 12/12, and no dormers.

we got most of the rafters done where the loft is this past weekend.  here's a picture of the first rafters.  note the 1 piece of sheathing already on the rafters.  it was quite windy and adding 1 sheet to the rafters really firmed things up so it wasn't "swaying" anymore with the stronger winds

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rafters1.jpg)

Today the wife and I finished the "bridge" thingy so we can reach to do the rest of the rafters.  We used some leftover sheathing, 3 pieces, and then it was a little flimsy so we took scrap sheething that was on the ground and added a second layer where needed to make it more firm

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rafters2.jpg)

Here's a pic from the bottom.  Because the sheathing was weaker we needed quite a bunch of mini joists.  The main beams are 3 2x12's on each side.  They span about 20ft right now but seem to hold just me well enough.  here's under the bridge

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rafters3.jpg)

One more picture of the first rafters from a distance, you can also see how we get in and out of the house at the current moment, we didn't do the sheathing for a small part in the back.  after we do some door shopping and build some temp stairs we'll finish up the sheathing there.:

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rafters4.jpg)

The roof work so far has been pretty difficult, and we haven't started the outside roof work yet.  If you are afraid of heights at all this is not something you want to do yourself, but we are getting more comfortable with doing the rafters.  Still unsure about doing the sheathing or outsourcing it but we'll see.  We are taking more time doing things at this point, or slowed down a bit.

Hopefully we'll put a few more rafters up tomorrow.

Questions:

Still unsure about how to do the eve at the gable end of the house.  The framing book shows 3 boards that hang out and but most of the photos here show over a half dozen boards running perpendicular to the last rafter. 

The rafters where they meet the ridge beam are a couple inches taller than the ridge beam.  We lined them up with the bottom but now they hang over the top of the ridge beam a couple inches each side (forgot to take a picture).  Do you add a filler board between the top of the rafters or leave them?

prohomesteader good looking "gang plank". I am sure before it is all over your wife will make you walk it to an open end ;D.  You will get more confortable as you go.  It is something that you are not accustomed to.  If the lord really wanted us to be that high he would have given us wings.

The sheeting starts at the bottom.  Once you get that on you are set.  You can nail 2X4 as cleats to stand on or buy about 4 roof jacks and 2X6 as a heel against them.  Real comfortable once you get used to them. I just used 2X4 nailed then pryed them up and moved them up the roof as needed.  Don't forget an occassional nail to work like a stop for the sheeting to rest while you get ready to put it in place.  After the first sheet it will act as that anchor for the bottom of the next sheet.

As far as the rafters. I usually set mine to the top but I guess either way would work.  If you are going with metal roof that will work out for the ridge vent area.  Either leave the sheeting 1 to 1-1/2" lower than the peak on each side.

The block outs for the false rafter is not written in stone. You can install as many as you like but usually every 48" or so.  I put mine on 24" They will be covered if you are using soffit. 

Wow, going through the owner builder section & seeing all these cabins being built...  you're doing a great job, nice area...  don't remember if you mentioned it, what altitude are you at? 

@sassy - we are at 740ft according to google earth

@redover - thanks for the great answer and insights.  to do the blockouts for the extra eve then you just cut some 12" pieces (assuming a 12 inch eve), space them 24" and just nail to the side of the last rafter?

also, a couple more questions if someone gets time:

1.  we bought the h10 ties for the rafters, is it ok to just put them on the outside and toenail the top of the rafter in place to the top plate or should we put a simpson tie on the inside of the rafter also?

2.  we used something like this (http://www.simplexnails.com/Catalog_PlexCap.jpg) to put the wrap on the house.  they were a real pain to put on cause I was hammering my finger all day and they were slow going.  the construction people said to use them for the roofing felt also.  is there an easier way to attach the roofing felt?  We've got tons of them but I don't want to be up on the roof forever banging in little tacks.  do staples work better/faster or is there a quick way to drive the tacks?

prohomesteader


It would depend on what overhang you have. If you are planning on a 12" overhang then I would cut them 9".  That takes into account the 2X4 nailed to the house(could used 2"x2") and the outside rafter.  The 9" would be the distance on the inside of those two 2X's.  Another thing you might consider is that if you are going to install a rake facia board onto the outside of the rafter then allow your sheeting to overhang that as well(not just the false rafter)

I think that those should be on the outside.  It would stand to reason that any up lift would be from the outside rather than inside. They also make one that goes on both sides of the rafter and then nails to the plate. I thinnk that is a H10

Oh yes the famous button nails.  They are far superior to roofing nails or stables.  Especially if they are going to be exposed the felt is less likely to pull up. I used plenty on my roof as it stood all winter without roofing.  Almost 7-8 months.  One thing you might consider and it is a little on the pricey side compared to 30# felt and that is "Titaninum Felt"  It is guarenteed for like 18 months exposed.  Especially if it will be sometime until you get the roofing material on or the weather shuts you down first.  Don't recall what you are going with. Metal or Shingles? Here is the site on the roofing underlayment

http://www.interwrap.com/Titanium/udl_30_FB.html

I hired out the work on my 12/12 roof.

Now I know, after having to do a few tricky moves and reaches on the end of the loft staring over the edge of an open gable, that for my health and peace of mind, I made a good decision. 

The only injury was a bruise on my DIY pride.  I think I got off cheap. 

@Redoverfarm - cool, we already bought the felt so we'll be using that and I reckon the button nails all over the roof.

we aren't sure if we will be going the winter with just felt or if we will get the metal on, we'll see.  It really depends on when we sell our current house cause that's where they money is coming from for the metal (and septic and few other things)

@considerations - yeah, we put a few ads on craiglist and asked around, no takers so we will probably do the roof ourselves, and probably save a bunch of money also.

I find standing on a ladder on a gang plank in the wind while attaching rafters to the ridgebeam to be quite nerve racking.  for some reason I don't think the sheathing will be as nerve racking, maybe cause I'll have a rope around me then.

we will put more rafters on this weekend, hopefully come close to finishing them.

You can easily build safe staging around the house with 2x4s and some temp 2x4's lagged to the side of the house to attach to.

Like a variation of what we did at Mike's.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/P1010389.jpg)

or my RV Garage.  Put on handrails, of course. d*

Best to extend them clear down to the ground like in Mike's pix.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/3-26-06002.jpg)

glenn - I don't understand what your pictures and staging description is about?  Do you mean to build a platform around the house so it would catch my fall if I fell?  the front eve of the house is around 18' (guesstimate), that would be quite a stretch for a 2x4 ;)  i reckon I don't understand, plus I got a harness now mentioned below.

we put up the second ridge beam this week and the remaining rafters except the 2 on the ends for each side.  we will get to that this weekend hopefully.  we also started putting up some sheathing.

I bought a harness and some rope ($29 for the harness, $12 for the rope with 375lb capacity), so far we've been inside the house doing the roof, this weekend I'll need to take the first journey onto the outside.  We found the harness at walmart in the hunting section.

to get the 4x8 panels to the roof I tie one to a rope, throw the rope over the house, then tie it to my truck and take off.  I place a latter between the house and the board and resting on an eave so it doesn't catch going up.

one of the rafters is off center, just the top, by about 6 inches (we were getting tired that day apparently) but we are thinking of leaving it alone as it would be a pain to move now.  don't think it would hurt much eh?

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/ridge2.jpg)

the h10 clips were a bit confusing to install, they have holes and grooves all over them. not intuitive at all.  we ended up attaching one side to the plate with 2 nails and one side to the rafter with 2 nails.

finally the gap left in the sheathing is to climb on to the roof eventually

Yes - the staging -- I could have 2 simple scaffolds around that in a couple hours or less.  The old looking garage above we lag bolted brackets onto and put the 45 braces on then boards over it.  The other we put horizontals off the forms then long enough legs to be handrail supports also.

The harness would work even better with the staging - scaffold -

That is a steep roof but try it and see how you feel - be careful.

I couldn't tell what he was trying to show at 1st, but you did see the brackets on the side with 3 dark brown 3x6 boards across to stand on?  He also hung a folding extension ladder over the top of the roof  - so a ladder is secured & hanging down each side...  did I make it totally confusing?  Maybe that wasn't even what you were asking...   ???

BTW, it's about 26ft to the peak of the cupola...  I was up on the 2nd story walk way out front (by the window-not built in that pic) with my sister & a friend - there's a big planter - I tripped on a 2x4 that was supporting the planter & headed over backwards - my sister & friend grabbed me & pulled me back - Glenn forbid me to go up there until he put some hand rails up there...   :D

prohomesteader making good progress.  A 2X4 laid flat on the sheeting or the rafters and temp nailed with 16d will do wonders for your confidence and your footing. Just leave 1/4-1/2" to pull them out.

As far as the OC rafter I personally would not leave it that way. Use a sawzall and cut the nails, reposition it as it will haunt you maybe not now but later in the ceiling stage or when trying to meet the sheets of OSB.

thanks for the explanation glenn, you must work much quicker than me though because it would take a couple days to install the scaffolding like that or longer.  plus we don't need much staging right now because we are hauling the panels into place with teh truck ;)  but thanks much for the suggestions ;)

sassy - yeah I see it now, I will need to do something like that.  i see ladder hooks might be used to hang a latter like that http://www.amazon.com/Qual-Craft-2481-Ladder-Hook-Wheel/dp/B0000224MR/

I also need to pick up some roof jacks at lowes, they are about $7 each.  @redover mentioned using a 2x4 but I think I'll invest in the roof jacks

@Redoverfarm - yeah, but a few off our boards don't line up exactly with 24" on center, just off by an inch or so in places. 

We are terrible with a measuring tape, the wood isn't cut perfect or gets warped a bit, all the 1/8 inch you are supposed to leave between sheathing adds up to throw everything off, etc.  we will reinforce them from the inside later and pay close attention when putting the drywall on.

that's why we did the subfloor and joists at the same time, we didn't have the option with the roof, too difficult, so we will do our best to make it work ;)

(http://prohomesteader.com/countryplans/floor1.jpg)

Keep in mind that I type/program for a living.  I didn't even own a circular saw before I started this project.  And even at that I'm on my second circular saw because I accidentally cut the cord on the first one d*

I cut the cord on my saw too. I just taped it back together. It's not that hard to line the rafters up. Just mark the plate and the ridge board and bend the rafter in the middle as needed when you put the sheathing on.

I have 1 saw that i haven't managed to cut the cord yet.

use it enough it will happen d*

I love my cordless Ryobi 18V tools!!!  ;D ;D

Quote from: prohomesteader on October 02, 2008, 07:25:51 AM
all the 1/8 inch you are supposed to leave between sheathing adds up to throw everything off, etc. 

???
Usually the sheathing panels I've used are sized accordingly to allow for that 1/8" gap. The sheets would be stamped with a notation to that effect.

you can replace that cord with a 25' cord for about $10 and 10 minutes time.

I like cords that are about 9 ft long or so. That's long enough to allow ripping down an 8 foot panel of plywood or whatever, without having the plug catch on the panel end, and not so long that it's a bother when you store the tool.

Wow,,, most people just buy the tools with the cord already removed...  Prohome,, I think you added an extra step.   ;)

I vote 36V LiIon Dewalt saw!!!.  That thing has been a beast.  Built everything of my home.

I usually don't use cordless tools on bigger projects.  Even when I do use them I always have a corded back-up cause me and batteries don't get along that well. They die an early death.

And yes it will happen like Scott. But a quick mend will last until the next time I nick or cut it.  About twice and I feel sorry for it and buy a new life line and install.

I used virtually nothing but the 18Volt Ryobis on my shed and on my cabin. Yes I had corded saws and dills in reserve, too, however never used them, except for the circular saw with the special blade for cement board.

I have given the Lithium Ion batteries a huge recommendation before and will repeat it. They are many times better than NiCads or NiMh. The big thing I have never liked about Nicads is the problems you inflict on them by charging them before they're fully discharged. That is a Nicad killer and I think we all do that. It's understandable because we want a full charge before starting a job. The Lithium Ion shrug that off; it is no problem for them. The Ryobi's also have a charge indicator built into each Lithium battery. I don't know about other brands.

It also seems to me that the Ryobi 18 V Lithium Ions provide more torque than the Nicads.

I have two of the Lithium chargers and four Lithium batteries. I've never run out of charged batteries. Running them off a small inverter powered by the Jeep battery works well. I have relegated the Nicad batteries to flashlight duty.

I don't feel that bad about cutting the cord now, I reckon I'm not the only one ;)

I used my brother's saw for a bit before getting another and it cut like cutting butter, he said it's all in getting a new sharp blade, so I argue the blade is more important than the saw ;)

Random Question:  Why do they mark the 4x8 pieces of wood with 16" and 24" on center lines but they don't do the same for 2x wood?  I wish they would.

Building Question: Can we put the gable eves on in the spring?  we were thinking of making the roof flush with the side of the house on the gable ends, closing them off, and putting the felt on the roof for the winter.  in the spring we would extend the gable end to have eves and put the metal on then.  We would do this to save some time, we only have a few more weekends until it starts getting colder here and we need to get moving quicker.

I'm going to try and get my roof on before the snow flies here in Northern Pa. I'm trying to get it dried in so that I can work on the inside during the winter. I don't mind working in the cold outside. Pete

Quote from: prohomesteader on October 03, 2008, 09:26:20 AM

Building Question: Can we put the gable eves on in the spring?  we were thinking of making the roof flush with the side of the house on the gable ends, closing them off, and putting the felt on the roof for the winter.  in the spring we would extend the gable end to have eves and put the metal on then. 

No.

That is if you mean installing all the standard rafters now, out to the end wall, sheathing the roof out to those gable ends and then installing the #30 roofing paper, and then adding on a foot or two of end overhang later. The reason I say no to that is the sheathing on that end over hang must extend at least one rafter bay over the main portion of the roof to give adequate strength to the overhang. Sheathing is always installed with the long side parallel to the side wall eves, BTW, as you have started.

There may be other reasons not to do as you propose, but the above is the main problem I see.

Re saws: Yes a good blade (carbide tipped) is almost more important than the brand of saw.

Re stick lumber markings: that's what tape measures are for.  ;D  Seriously though 4x8 panels and other manufactured lumber products have better control on the dimensions. Ten foot 2x4's are not often exactly 10 feet long for example. Nor are they always exactly 1.5 inches thick.  >:(

@peteh2833 - good luck, i'll keep an eye on your thread, I'm just a few rafters ahead of you right now

@don - thanks for the advice on the eves.  I reckon we can notch out the last rafter that's over the house and put out the supports, throw on sheathing to the edge and hange them over by a couple inches, and do the "false rafter" when we get up there to frame the gable wall then.

Yes you are a few rafters ahead of me. Are you doing a loft over half or the whole building? I'm installing the loft this weekend and then next weekend the roof. I have a rafter already cut to use as a template as long as it fits correctly. Hopefully next weekend I'll get the rafters up and some if not all the sheathing up and take the final measurements on the roof so I can order the metal roof. Great progress prohomesteader.

@peteh2833  - our loft is only going over half.  we used 2x10x18' for the rafters.  they were quite heavy and took more effort to put up than we thought.

To get each 4x8 onto the roof I'm using a 75ft nylon cord with almost 400lb capacity (it's pretty smooth, no "knuckles" to get caught on the rigdgebeam) and then tying one end to the truck hitch, throwing the roap over the house, one end to the board, then driving forward and it raises the 4x8 onto the roof.  done correctly and you can get it into the exact spot you need it ;) plus it takes little effort vs. lifting the thing all the way up.

I also just returned my $30 harness to walmart and picked up a "fall arrest kit" at lowes for $130.  I haven't been on the roof yet but I LOVE this thing.  the coolest part is the adjuster that is built onto the rope, it lets you let out slack or remove slack with every step you take so there is never any slack in the roap. 

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=134465-429-94050-00000&lpage=none

I've been playing with it on my deck today.  I also bought 8 werner 12/12 roof jacks.

I plan on using the roof jacks to hold some of 2x10's horizontally to walk across the roof sideways and a ladder to go Up the roof.

unfortunately I couldn't find any of the ladder hangers  so i'm going to have to build something myself for the ladder to attach to the roof.

The fall arrest kit is much better.  It's what we use on the big buildings...when the general contractor cares.... ::)

wowzer things slow down when it gets to the roof, but, aside from some "slightly" off center rafters we made some great progress.

we currently have ALL the rafters and the sheathing on the roof and are now putting on the felt. the sheathing is in place with a few nails and we are really nailing them down permanently as we come across each rafter doing the felt.

my brother took a video of us getting the sheathing on the roof and I'll hopefully post it soon.

To get on the roof we made a wooden ladder for the roof and use an extension ladder in the truck bed to get to the roof ladder. putting the ladder in the truck bed keeps it from going anywhere.

I'm WAY more comfortable on the roof with the wood ladder and the pro harness than I was inside the house doing the rafters up on the "bridge" we made on top of an 8 foot ladder.  thank goodness rafters are done ;)

we will do the rest of the felt over the next week or so then frame in the gable ends.  maybe put a front door on the place and close up the back with sheathing finally

here's a couple pics:

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rooffelt1.jpg)

and a picture from far away

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rooffelt2.jpg)

Impressive.  And you have no prior building experience?

@soomb - no building experience before, thanks

here's a couple junky cell phone pics.  as usual the roof is real slow going for me.

we got a front door installed, a really cool milestone, now we can lock ourselves in ;)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/blackstuff2.jpg)

we closed off the back and got the back gable framed and most of it sheathed.  also, you can't tell from the picture but we have felt 100% done on 1 side.  The other side is still all wood right now, moving their next.

it's really slow going tacking on the roofing felt, at least for me.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/blackstuff1.jpg)

hopefully in the next week we can get the front gable closed and the felt done on side 2.

it's been awhile, we really SLOWED down doing the roof but we've made some more progress,  the house is mostly waterproof now (minus two small leaks we are waiting for it to rain again to find) and wrapped

here is side 2 with the felt on now, I'm sure glad putting those little tacks on and rolling felt on the roof is done

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrapped1.jpg)

two lessons learned:

1.  Tie your ladder to the roof, this way it can't get knocked down while you are up there.  This happened to me, fortunately

2.  Keep you cell phone on you when you are on the roof.  after the ladder got accidentally got knocked down I called the wife and she drove the hour drive to put the ladder back in place.  it would have been a rough jump, I'm real lucky I had my cell phone

here's the front gable closed and wrapped.  the wrap is a little sloppy however I wasn't going for looks, just wanted to keep the rain off ;)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrapped2.jpg)

we are putting some insulation in now to help keep it a bit warmer when we are working this winter

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrapped3.jpg)

the back gable closed and wrapped

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/wrapped4.jpg)

we aren't sure when we will put the metal on the roof but hopefully in the next 2-3 months (it's in the budget for after the house we are in sells)

after the insulation I might try my hand at plumbing or electric.

here's the video of how we got each piece of sheathing on the roof, they were a bit too heavy for us to play with on the steep roof so we had to improvise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsMTcyWWjYE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsMTcyWWjYE)

we used rope, a truck, and a ladder to get the sheet up there, then we went in the house on ladders or the temp bridge and nailed it in temporarily.  we put the final nails in each sheet when we got on the roof to do the felt

Prohome, if it gets up there, it works... mission accomplished.  I started laughing during the video because I thought you had it rigged to bring the ladder up with you.  I thought, someone has been spending a lot of time engineering this solution.. :)  House looks good.  It feels so nice when it's dried in.

Am I missing something or is there no windows in this house?  Are you putting them in after?

prohomesteader Maybe you have addressed this but it appears that the insulation is not faced to the interior.  Is this faced insulation or are you going to put a film of plastic over the studs when you finish insulating as a moisture barrier.  All exterior walls should have a moisture barrier on the warm side of the wall(interior).  From the pictures it looks like you used faced insulation but installed it toward the outside of the wall.  If this is the case and you try to put up a plastic film as a moisture barrier it will trap moisture between the two and you will end up with mold/ mildew in the wall. 

@phalynx lol i wish I rigged it to do bring the ladder up also. nope, it flung the ladder each time

@redover - good questions.

I don't know which way insulation goes so your advice would be appreciated.  I looked multiple times on the stuff for where it says "this side in" or something but it didn't

it is faced insulation or one side has a paper on it and one side just has pink stuff if that's what you mean.

could you explain how the wall should be built? 

should I rip it out and turn it around and then I would be ok to sheet rock over it or do I need to rip it out, turn it around AND put plastic over it before the sheetrock?

thanks.

prohomesteader the facing on the insulation is the vapor barrier.  It needs to go to the inside wall.  That is the point that the cold and the warm air meet.  I hate to break this to you but I would remove and put the paper faced to the inside.  The insulation is usually sized to fit the opening by friction.  Then there is a paper tab on both sides which get stapled to the interior of the stud cavity at the inside edge.  Proper way is to cut to length from ceiling to floor, push loosely into the cavity until the paper face clears the front(wall side) of the stud.  The just fold back the tab and staple to the inside of the stud.  Remember that you do not want to compress the insulation as the R-value decreases when compressed.

In addition I noticed that you started the ceiling rafters at their intersection with the wall.  The same principle applies to this area as well regarding the facing to the inside.  Also you will need to use rafter-mates or baffles against the sheeting between the rafters before putting the insulation in to create as air space to allow air to travel from the soffit to the ridge vent.  Here is a site which will help on the installation. It also has a picture of the pink baffles for the rafter air chase.

http://insulation.owenscorning.com/homeowners/

No you would only use a plastic film if it was unfaced.  Since it is faced you would not want to put plastic over it.  One last tip and that is not to pull the tabs over the face of the stud.  It looks like that is the way to do it but it is not and it will hide the stud from you later to put up drywall which you will need to see.

thanks redover those videos were great,  I've got no problem turning them around, they only have a few staples in them and shouldn't rip that much, just time and they're fixed

as for the bafflemate, let me see if I understand

the peak of the ceiling has collar ties (not installed yet) which are pieces of wood that go between the rafters on each side.  they go a few feet down from the ceiling peak and create a "mini attic" a few feet deep.  we will put dryall over this and the entire ceiling

you are saying that the soffits should have the bafflemates running all the way up and emptying into the "mini attic"?

this is to get airflow into the mini attic I assume?

thanks again

Pro the baffles or raft-r-mates are not meant to really ventilate the attic but to reduce condensation that would collect between the insulation and the roof sheeting.  It also cools the roof and the house in the summer and prevents ice dams in the winter.  The house is sealed with the insulation so the air flow will not effect the way the insulation works.  Here is a short topic of the subject.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,194780,00.html

When you install your roof you will put either ridge vents or gable vents which will allow the hot air that rises from the soffit vents to the attic area.  If you are going to insulate on top of the collar ties then the baffles only need go past the point that the insulation stops.

The soffit is the area of the bottom of your rafter that is perpendicular to the outside wall.  The rafter cavity is that space that runs from the soffit to the ridge of the roof.  You can start the baffles just at the outside of your exterior wall where the rafters rest on your plate.  Then continue to a point that you stop insulating.  Making any sense?   

thanks redover farm, it makes perfect sense now.

I got most of the insulation turned around now and want some heat

I bought, and quickly returned a kerosene heater, now I want to install a stove, but I have some questions.

my main confusion is this, according to mountaindon and some internet reading

QuoteThe rule of thumb for chimneys is that the chimney should extend at least 3' above the highest point where it passes through a roof, and at least 2' higher than any portion of a building within 10'.

so because my peak is just 10 feet from the edge, that would mean my chimney needs to extend at least 2' beyond the ridge.

but then I see that peteH has an amazin looking chimney that breaks the rules above

(https://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/pete2833/Camp/IMG_0870.jpg)

so my questions are these:

1.  Will I burn my house down if the chimney is done like steve's? (I'm a wood stove newbie)  or better yet, any special considerations to think of?

2.  If it shouldn't be done like that, how would you build the chimney?  I want my stove in the front right corner of the house.  Maybe run the chimney up the cathedral ceiling to the ridge and then out the roof there?


Also, should it be this expensive?

$150 -stove, cheapest one from tractor supply

$80 - stove pipe to make it to the ceiling

$200 - a flashing kit with rain guard and roof brace at lowes

$120 -    6"x24" chimney pipe, $40 each, for on top the roof and through it, need at least three right?

$550 - TOTAL

Seems really high for installing the cheapest stove I can get.  You think?

(note to steve: sorry if you didn't like me using you as an example, but I'm really struggling researching chimneys for this place right now)

If you have to follow code your are lost.
************************************
The minimum height of chimney required is the same for all support styles
and sizes. The diagram below shows minimum chimney height as
required by code. A quick way to calculate this dimension is to multiply the
vertical rise per 12" of horizontal distance (X in the diagram) by 10 and
add 24". When the chimney is installed within 10' of the peak it must clear
the peak by 24". The minimum chimney height is 3'.
(https://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/zumsel/thru_attic.gif)
*************************************

But using common sense I would install the stove as you suggested, like Steve's example and see if you will have enough draft. Especially on windy, cold days. You can always extend the exterior chimney with another 24" piece. Maybe you have then to use brackets to support the chimney.

Jochen

Jochen's diagram is a good one. The very best installation is to get the top of the chimney above the air turbulence of the roof slopes. Wind, especially when the chimney is low on the leeward side of the roof, can play tricks on the natural desire of warm smoke to rise. :D

I sometimes get backdrafting on my own chimney - which is masonry and meets the code level aspects of Jochen's diagram (2' abv a point 10' from the roof). The cap is lower than the peak but 15' away from it. Backdrafting only occurs on stormy days while the chimney is just warming up with a new fire.

PS - PeteH may find that adding a pipe section or two improves the draft. A short installation like this is not a much greater fire danger (keep the spark screen clean!) but it is likely to smoke occasionally.

thanks Jochen and John

so basically the height of the chimney is for drafting and not for caution in setting the roof on fire it appears, that is good to know

I think I will start with pete's example then and work from there, adding height if needed.

one last thing did those prices sound about right to you?

thanks again.

I really can't say much about the prices, being from Nova Scotia/Canada. When I look at some prices mentioned here I could cry.  :-[ We are paying an arm and a leg here for building material. But I would be careful with a really cheap stove. Don't get me wrong, it could be all you will need. Sorry that I can't be of more help in that matter.

I just googled the stove you are talking about. The Vogelzang Boxwood?! Have you looked at the installation instructions already?

Clearances from combustible wall:
Side wall ..... 36"
Rear wall ..... 36"
Corner ........ 36"

Will that work for you?

Jochen

Sounds right to me.  If you price out any other heating system, you will spend around the same amount.  Wood stoves save money in the long run on the fuel, not the installation.  If you are looking at tractor supply, look at the ventless propane heaters.  Then factor in the cost of installation (pipe and tank) and the cost of delivered propane over the lifespan.  Wood is still one of the cheapest fuels / btu on the market. 
It is about upfront costs versus lifetime costs.  One of the cheapest to set up is electric. The heaters cost next to nothing and you just have to add heavier wire and extra breakers.  Electric tends to cost a fortune in the long run on a primary residence. 

If you can find the pipes used, you can usually find it for a huge discount.  I found an entire installation setup for a 6" flue on eBay for $65. 

yep the The Vogelzang Boxwood

i thought 36 inches was standard so i'd have to make do.

I will ask at the store about other options.

there seems to be a huge jump in price from the cheapies to the rest of the stoves, it's like $200 or $700 with little in the middle

thanks again jochen, you building ahome right now?  drop a link if you dno't mind

@squirl, thanks, I'll check ebay/craigslist

36 inches is not the standard! There are a lot, many, stoves on the market which could be installed with less space requirements. These have then already built in heat shields on the back and bottom. But that costs money. But I think money well spend.

About building. I started 2004 building a 20' x 24' cabin which grew then over the couple of years. You can see some pictures at http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0 (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0) The first pages were lost here on the forum but I have added recently the missing pictures again.  I have recently bought the plans for John's Solar Saltbox which we will start building next spring for my former wife on one part of our property.

Jochen

Well that is mighty nice to build a former wife a house.

Some rambling thoughts...

I have not had any downdrafts with my wood stove / chimney setup but sometimes the south wind comes over the peak and down the roof slope and brings the smoke right down to ground level. It's mainly a bother only if I happen to be outside and want to be doing something in the area the smoke blows down to. One day I plan an experiment; I'll take the top section off the gazebo chimney and add it to the cabin chimney and see if it makes a difference.

36 inches for clearance is typical of cheap stoves. My Vermont Castings needs 24" side and 13" rear. It is lined with firebrick. It also has a metal heat shield for the floor protection. Yes, it did cost a considerable amount more than $150, but I feel it is well worth it. There may be other stoves with even smaller clearance requirements.

Low cost stoves are just that, low cost, low efficiency, large volume wood burners. Depending on how much it is called on to heat the cabin you might find yourself refilling the firebox sometime during the night. I haven't looked at that model but I have had a good look at one of their smaller stoves. My opinion of it was that it was nowhere near airtight, meaning it may be difficult to regulate the temperature in the downward, lower direction. And you are right there is no middle ground; wood stoves are either cheap or they are well designed and manufactured.

I would not use a ventfree or ventless propane burning heater no matter how cold I was. I have a direct vent propane heater that will be installed next year. It direct the exhaust to the exterior and draws combustion air from the outside. Ventless can kill. I know that they have oxygen sensors that are supposed to turn off the heater if the O₂ level falls too low. That however doesn't mean that you could not have a CO build up occur.  know people who have suffered CO poisoning and are lucky enough that they lived through it.

When you purchase the stove pipe to connect the stove to the insulated chimney look for a heavy gauge steel telescoping unit. They greatly simplify installation. They are also a welded seam pipe and remain round unlike the cheaper snap lock seam pipe.

Buy the insulated pipe in longer sections as a 36" costs less per foot than a 24" as a rule.

Do not run the chimney...

Quote... up the cathedral ceiling to the ridge and then out the roof there?

...  Ideally you do not want any bends. A straight vertical chimney draws better than one with directional changes. The exception to that would be a slight jog using two 45 degree elbows with a short straight section between them. Back home I had to jog the chimney in the attic to clear the rafters. It only had a 12" section between the bends. Worked well. That one was a tall chimney so that probably helped the draft.

The prices on the parts you listed seen to be inline with what I see here in NM. Here I found that Lowe's had excellent pricing compared to many other places. The Selkirk brand they sell is a good insulated chimney.

One last thing, some of the better wood stoves had a very nice thermostatically controlled air intake. Just a very simple bimetal coil that expands or contracts with temperature change. The VC stoves have this and they work very well. Another feature I like is the availability of a ready made sheet metal adapter box that fits around the stoves air inlet. That allows the inlet air to be drawn from the exterior and adds to the efficiency by not using already warmed interior air for combustion. I have one that I'll install when I do the floor tile. It'll pass through the floor and draw air from under the cabin via a screened mouse and insect proof screened intake vent.

If you go to the center of the room you only need insulated pipe for a short distance assuming no loft in the stove area.  

It will also prevent snow from sliding and taking it off of the roof.  If through the loft you need insulated or triple wall all of the way to two feet above the peak or highest point within 10 feet of the pipe...

I just got 11 feet and a cap - 9" ID for $100 used.  

What I noticed with the short pipes is pressurization on the roof forcing down through the stove pipe and blowing smoke into the room as the room will be lower pressure than a gust of wind.

Quote from: soomb on December 09, 2008, 09:38:46 PM
Well that is mighty nice to build a former wife a house.

Not to highjack this topic, but I think it's mighty nice of my former wife to allow me to call her my best friend. When we married some twenty years ago, Moni quit from University because we wanted children. And we made a deal. Her main part should be to look after the children and raise them and I'll work and provide food and shelter. And that deal is still valid. We are now separated for more then eight years. She is looking after the children and I will fulfill my part. It makes me sick to see how many people treat their ex partner.

Jochen

it was not a slight (just in case it sounded as such).  I am impressed to see someone live up to their "word"  That characteristic is sadly missing.  Kudos to you.

Soomb, no problem at all!!!

But back to topic. It just crossed my mind that I have one of these Vogelzang Boxwood stoves sitting in one corner of my shed. I never used it, a friend gave it to me. But looking at it, I would never ever leave it unattended. Normally a cast iron stove is on the higher side of the price scale due to the more complicated manufacturing process and tools and forms involved. There is a reason why this stove is so cheap. It is by now way airtight and you will have major problems to regulate it. If you will be able to do that all. At least add another damper in your chimney. These stoves overheat easily and will warp, then pulling even more air and burn hotter and hotter....

Jochen

That was my impression of the Vogelzang I saw.


nd BTW, congrats to you on being a man of his word. As owners of a preschool over the past 23 years we have seen a few families dragged through the most vile separations and divorces.   >:(

prohomesteader make sure you follow as close as possible to the guidlines regarding the heigth vs. ridge.  Ask me how I know.  Sometimes you can get by on the lower portion of a roof and sometimes you can't.  I learned the hard way.  My original flue was about 6' above the roof but still not even close to the ridge.  Then when I added onto my house the problem compounded creating a greater problem with the flue in an inside corner of two 10/12 roofs.  Given the additional heigth needed there was no way I would be able to raise it to the required.  The addition was 1-1/2' higher than the original roof.

With hindsight being 20/20 I might have moved the flue to the opposite wall nearer the ridge which would have eliminated the problem but I didn't want to loose valuable space in the room.   So I went as far as possible clearing the main house ridge but still under the addition roof. With all being said my flue is now approximately 13' above the roof.  I was afraid to extend it any further as it is a stand alone at that heigth.  Although your flue will be somewhat easier to remedy than mine this is what I had.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_0595-1.jpg)

And this is what I had to end up doing.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_1487-1.jpg)

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_1484-1.jpg)

Although it drafts 100% better than before it is far from perfect.  And no I haven't got around to facing the rest with stone.  Just an eyesore until I get the cabin finished.   

I can leave the door open on my stove without it smoking at all. The only problem I had is when I turned it down overnight I had some water mixed with creosote running down the pipe. Never has happened before on any of my woodstoves. Not sure if it was because the camp was so cold inside because of no insulation and the slow burn. I plan on adding 1 more 24" or 36" section of pipe at a later date. Probably when I put the metal roof on in the spring. Pete

Also as a side note about the stove.  I looked over that one too.  I considered it.  Tell you the truth the fact that it had no window broke the deal for me.  I was willing to pay the extra few hundred for the aesthetic appeal. That is not usually priority #1 for me, especially when you are paying almost 300% more for the option, but I really wanted a fireplace, but they are very inefficient in heating a house.

How about looking on Craig's List for a used woodstove?
I found a nice Vermont Castings for a fraction of the cost of a new one- included most of the pipe I need and the stone hearth.
Be sure to inspect it and ask the seller for any manuals/ install instructions- to be sure you get the clearences correct- although most stoves that I looked at have the information on the back heat shield.
Just a thought.
Good luck.
Tom

Most manuals for VC stoves are available for download on their website, although by federal law they are all supposed to have a plate on the stove for reference. They also have parts available for their stoves.

hey Prohome, where are the pics?  I love watching the progress.  Make sure to take a snow pic if you get some. :)

Scott

prohomesteader another thing you might consider with the stove placement is how high you are going to have to go to clean the flue on occassions.  If you have a long standing flue pipe such as double or tripple wall will it support a ladder to get to the top.  The reason I thought of this is today since the weather was half decent I decided to clean mine instead of the dead of winter.  No small task even for a mason flue I could only imagine a tall metal one.

(https://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd161/redoverfarm/scenes/country%20plans/100_2290-1.jpg)

wow, thanks all for the advice, stoves are a "hot" topic

I'm thinking of going with the basic chimney clearance like peteh and adding more if needed, but going for a more expensive stove. 

@phalynx, I haven't been out there much lately so nothing to photo.  The wife has less than 2 weeks left of work so I'm trying to get my things in order (going from 2 incomes to 1).

I bought a 60 watt solar kit from amazon I'll be installing shortly so then I'll have something to photo again.  gonna use it to power some lights and my laptop so I don't always need to run the loud gas guzzling generator. also want to add more watts eventually.

http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-50044-60-Watt-Solar-Charging/dp/B000CIADLG/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1228956126&sr=8-2

I got the stove for my camp off of e-bay for $150. I sanded the little bit of rust that was on it and repainted it and it looks like new. Pete

Welcome to the wood stove quandary.  I built a Maine 16 x 24, 1 1/2 story cabin based on John's plans and have been wrestling with stove location. With 8' lofts on each end I wanted it in the middle of the open space and close (18") to a wall, my wife finally agreed.  Corners are nice but I put windows there, plus I wanted a more central heat location.

The stove manufacturer should have published clearances to combustible surfaces, most stoves have a heat shield option to reduce the distance.  Here is a link to an ag extension explanation, note that a sheet metal or cement board on the wall does not further reduce the distance.  You need an air space behind the wall panel or the heat may still be transferred to the wood.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001001-d001100/d001052/d001052.html

Do a search on stove pipe for some ideas and pricing, here is one I found,
http://www.discountstove.com/chimney.html

I went with an older used stove, price was right but the downside is harder to find parts and it needs 8" pipe.  Still not sure if I want to go up to the 12x12 ceiling and 45 degree bend to an opening closer to the peak or just go straight up and out to the 5-6' limit of non braced chimney pipe.  Well below the peak but it is three season cabin with tall trees 8' away from the side wall.  Flip a coin between the which path provide the poorer draft, the longer path will cost more but get me higher than the peak.  I am going with double wall pipe in either case for the reduced spacing.

Did some local pipe pricing last fall and they were estimating 1500-2000, so online is the way to go.  With the pipe that expensive, unless you can find used, it doesn't make sense to by a low cost stove.  At the time they were estimating 3-4 months wait for their installation crew, another reason to do it yourself.

Cal

Mike Oehler liked the angle pipe in the room for more heat but keep in mind cleaning that sucker out.  I like to add cleanout tees rather than elbows sometimes.

...and w* to the forum, Cal.  Do we get to see pix of your project?

When looking at older used stoves keep in mind that many of them are not EPA compliant. This might be a factor in some areas that require new installations to use listed stoves. Some of our members have run into that requirement.

Newer stoves use 6" pipe because their increased efficiency has reduced the air flow through the unit.

Prohome - in case you haven't seen it I found this website very helpful when planning my woodstove size, location, chimney run, etc: http://www.woodheat.org/ (http://www.woodheat.org/)

how's this for a woodstove.
http://www.webfun.org/woodstove.html

That's cool, Jens. $15.00 mailbox wood stove.  I understand Air Mail is a bit higher. [waiting]

nice one jens but we'll pass  :)  still haven't decided on a stove yet,  nothing on craigslist within 50 miles of here and everything new at the store starts at expensive and gets more expensive

we did get the mini solar system installed today. (temporary installation)

here's the panels

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/solar1.jpg)

and here's the 105ah deep cycle marine battery and the charger regulator thing

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/solar2.jpg)

the panels only put out 60watts peak (i'll add more eventually) but I don't go there everyday so I'm hoping from now on I have free lights and laptop juice for my visits ;)

I built an aluminum foundry a few years ago, using two galvanized buckets, homemade refractory cement, and a homemade propane burner.  Would start at a cold furnace, and have 6 pounds of molten aluminum in about 15 minutes running at 20psi propane.  I have been considering something similar as a woodstove.  The main advantage, is that with the refractory cement, you can have a very thin metal shell, 2 inches of cement, and still radiate plenty of heat.  The cement holds the heat so well.  The only thing that I worry about with it, is that the heat may end up going up the chimney.  Even still, for about $15 investment, I may experiment with it (outside until worked out), as I think it could be a very cheap, reliable, safe means of woodstove heat.  Maybe 1" of the cement inside a small metal drum, door in front, legs to bring off ground...maybe ;)

Kinda like my barbecue, Jens.  I used to cast aluminum also.

Glen - thanks for the welcome, actually a past member who changed email addresses and then forgot my password.  Lots of pics, need to study up on how to post them.

Cal

One way... using photobucket.com
(http://photobucket.com)

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=3512.0

don, glen, john, i could use some help here. i am not that computer literate and i need step by step(simple) instructions on how to move my pix from photobucket to the forum here. i looked at your thread on doing this and it all looks like greek to me. help!! :(

The short and simple...

Once the picture is uploaded to photobucket, place the mouse cursor over the image thumnail. A menu opens up below the image. Select the bottom one, labeled IMG Code. Click on it. If you have Flash 9 or earlier, a small tag stating "copied' will appear. If you have Flash 10 that tag will not appear, but the code will be highlighted; right click on the highlighted code and copy it. Paste that into the forum write a message field.

ok, did that but how do i paste that into the forum and write a message in the field? sorry bout the questions that are 2nd nature to most, i just have never done this before.

When you right click in the message field of our forum, the word paste will appear as an option.  The IMG tag you just copied from Photobucket will be pasted in your message and your photo will appear in you message when you post it.  I use tabs on Firefox so it is easy to copy from one then paste into the other.

put the braces on the front of the house today,  will do more eventually but put 4 on for starters (2 each side)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/braces.jpg)

for those that follow here's what worked for me

I used 4"x6" treated wood like mentioned in the plans cut at 45 degree angles

i used a 3/8" drill bit to pre drill the holes (thanks @phalynx) and then used 8" long by 1/2" thick metal screws (found them in lowes by the lag bolts)

with a little effort they held together really strong in my opinion

Did you notice how quickly the house stiffened up?  It was amazing to me.  I kept wanting to add more and more braces.  You'll want some going the other direction too.

Hey?  Where's the snow? :)

Quote from: phalynx on December 19, 2008, 08:55:16 PM
Did you notice how quickly the house stiffened up?  It was amazing to me.  I kept wanting to add more and more braces.  You'll want some going the other direction too.

Hey?  Where's the snow? :)

I could notice a difference but am looking forward to even more.

Snow?  We had a few inches the other day, snow doesn't stay around very long in KY.  It was 60 degrees this past friday.

put a couple windows in today

the first was a 36/62 with a cost of $204 @lowes - we will be putting one on the other side of the door when we move the solar panels eventually

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/windows1.jpg)

here's the kitchen windows, 36x36 for $95 at lowes

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/windows2.jpg)

also forgot to add one expense from last month; $600 on insulation for the walls and floor (we haven't purchased the ceiling insulation yet).

we're holding off on the stove for the moment.

Looks good.  That's the one thing I wish I had done, tall windows.  I don't know what I was thinking with the 4' tall windows.

@phalynx - sounds like a good upgrade to make

we started building the deck in the front.  we would like to do a wrap around but money and time don't permit at the moment so a 20X8 deck in the front is what we get

got the piers and joists done and put a few pieces of decking down

we got all the wood except the railings and stairs for $325 and the additional hardware (joists, screws, etc) came to $90

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/deck1.jpg)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/deck2.jpg)

Looking good pro.  A nice place to have your morning coffee.  You have came right along this year.  I too wanted a wrap porch but decided against it as well $$$.  I am going with a large deck area in the back to compensate.  Hard to learn the lesson " Enough is enough".  Wish it didn't have to be that way.

thanks @Redoverfarm we hope to move in  when the warm weather hits so the mornings will be nice out on the deck ;)

did a bit more decking today:

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/decking3.jpg)

might pick up some pvc and start working on the plumbing vent system.  I recently purchased a plumbing book and I think that's where I'm headed in the next few projects

is there any basic plumbing info for the plans?  I looked but didn't see anything, but maybe there has been someone that did a layout around here somewhere?

I need a vent for:

kitchen sink
bathroom sink
toilet
tub
washing machine

should I run them all through the roof separately, combine the vent for one side of the house and the other and run 2 through the roof? Or is there a way to combine all the vents and just go through the roof in one spot?

Thanks.

It is possible to run them all to one appropriately sized vent stack. However, I'm not up on the details; like is there a maximum distance from the vent stack...  ???  Glenn may know some but ScottA is the man.
We'll see what he has to say.

Could you post a rough drawing with the items shown, walls, etc? Might help with the advise.

Quote from: MountainDon on January 02, 2009, 05:40:39 PM
It is possible to run them all to one appropriately sized vent stack. However, I'm not up on the details; like is there a maximum distance from the vent stack...  ???  Glenn may know some but ScottA is the man.
We'll see what he has to say.

Could you post a rough drawing with the items shown, walls, etc? Might help with the advise.

thanks ;) 

I've just got the standard 1.5 story plan

(http://www.countryplans.com/images/20x30_flrpln.gif)

after posting that pic it seems obvious to run everything but the kitchen sink through one vent on the bottom left and the kitchen sink by itself on the top right through the roof, but that's just my untrained eye looking at it

Like Don said ScottA is the plumber.  If at all possible try to hold your roof penetration to a minimum meaning one of a larger diam say 3".  You can probably tie most of them together in the attic area.  Let Scott guide you in the vent/traps.  I am sure if you could draw up something for him to look at.  If not dry fit what you think is approiate and take photo's and post.  That way you can make the changes without having to cut glued pieces.

Ahh plumbing... You should be ok, with one 3" stack up thru the roof.  You can tie the kitchen sink in up above the 2nd floor ceiling (or even above the 1st floor ceiling if you want to drill alot of holes in your floor joists).  It really isn't that tough to run a vent line up thru the roof.  You'll see the plan has a 6" wall behind the toilet and bathtub.  The wall is sized that way, to accomodate the vent stack.  Generally speaking there is not limit on distance for a vent line.  You can go horizontal 6" above the fixture rim.  Some of these particulars vary from state to state, or even locale to locale, depending on the code.  The book probably does a pretty good job explaining things.  Usually the toughest thing to deal with is venting the kitchen sink.  The window is always in the way.  You have to be creative to vent the kitchen sink, but there is always a way.

I posted something a few years back, but I think it was the old forum.  Here is a print of what I did.  It was kind of anal laying it all out, but I am very inexperienced with plumbing and the store is an hour a way.  This gave me lots of tries to get it right.

The layout is hard to read.  It is two different ISO views. 

I am in snow county so I wanted to keep a single vent and keep it high on the roof.  Everything worked well.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/25gvy4n.jpg)

Here is a zoomed in view of the 1st floor bathroom.  Makes it a little easier to see...

(http://i40.tinypic.com/6gafl2.jpg)

You might want to look into venting requirements.  The way you have that set up, when you flush the toilet, it'll pull the trap for sink, laundry tray, and tub, which wouldn't be good.  You are usually allowed 1 wet vent, meaning you could drain the bathroom lav down the vent stack to the toilet, but that is it.  Everything else has to be vented seperately to above where the lav ties in.  Just an observation.  I've tried to do takeoffs with an iso, but it never seems to work out exactly.  You are always short some fittings, and usually have leftovers too, keep all your receipts, and don't be afraid to busy extra!

QuoteYou might want to look into venting requirements.  The way you have that set up, when you flush the toilet, it'll pull the trap for sink, laundry tray, and tub, which wouldn't be good.  You are usually allowed 1 wet vent, meaning you could drain the bathroom lav down the vent stack to the toilet, but that is it.

I can't guarantee that it is right, but it was my understanding that you can wet vent multiple fixtures as long as they are on the same level.  I know codes change all the time and it depends on the local regs.  So, I could be all wet.

The inspector was OK with it.  He actually had me add an additional drain to the stack for a water softener (that I will never need, but was required by State Code).  Most importantly I haven't had any problems.

Here is a link for more info.
http://www.psdmagazine.com/pdf/May_Jun_03/32-33.pdf (http://www.psdmagazine.com/pdf/May_Jun_03/32-33.pdf)

Well, I know it wouldn't pass muster here, but all jurisdictions have some differences.  Is the inspector a plumbing inspector? Or a building inspector?  From what I've seen, at one level means just that, meaning the drains have to come into the exact same fitting, like a sanitary cross, or something like that.  One thing you don't want to have is problems down the road, once you close up the walls, its kinda tough to vent fixtures.  I just helped a guy re-plumb his house last year, that was plumbed with just the common wet vent.  When he flushed the toilet, the bathrub and bathroom lav traps pulled out. 

I'd tie all the bathroom vents together into one and run the kitchen out seperate. Depends what code you are under as to weather you need a 3" vent or not. A 1 1/2" is fine for the kitchen and a 2" will do the bath unless your code requires a 3". The UPC requires the 3" vent but boca and international don't. These have been changed in recent years.

RE: the iso drawing above looks fine. You can tie a tub and toilet into the same tee so long as you use the right kind of tee. It's ok to wet vent a toilet with a fixture on the same floor so long as the vent is full size.

thanks all for the plumbing advice, I will make a phone call to the epa lady for the proper codes (we don't have inspection here except septic and water by the epa dept), review the advice and read up in the book

I will also document what I do good so the next one to do the venting can see it.

here's a real short video I found from a couple months ago up on the roof. 

If you come along later reading this thread and wonder about the view from the roof this is it, it's REAL high up there, and you aren't just up there for a visit, you are working ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqcJfTKG3g

Looking good.  Keep the videos coming.  Check your PM.

Thanks for posting the video - Helps those of us who haven't started yet get a better perspective on what the 20x30 1.5 story feels like in terms of space. 

glad ya'll liked the video ;)

put the solar panels inside temporarily and added the window to the right side of the door now (add another $205) and framed the deck railing (that material cost $175 for the corner posts and wood, not all installed yet)

gonna be cold and sloppy here so not sure how much I'll get done over the next few weeks

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/window21.jpg)


(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/window22.jpg)

Hey, Pro, I saw your Ametek motor video too - it popped up after the house vid. Are you building a wind generator?

I have two treadmills I want to make generators out of.  Looks like I may have to gear them motor up to get the necessary speed.  I may use Bike chain.  The bearings don't look heavy enough in the first one I have to support a blade so a jack shaft will be good anyway.... or I may use the multi-V belt that came with the treadmill - probably better anyway.

yeah I'd like to build a windmill, but we'll probably start by adding more solar panels right when we get in. they are the easiest, just literally plug them in

the ametek will probably need to be geared also at a 2to1, I can get 8 volts with hand spinning but you need to really get it flying fast with blades to get 8 volts (I want it to produce >12), here's a video of someone using my motor and geared theirs with basic parts and it looks good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oI0N21QqwA

I also bought some magnets and wire for making coils to do my own alternator,  not sure if this will be a wind generator or something creative I think up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5IUHf0Bh5A

I'm a noobie with the stuff, just teaching myself basic electricity and when I get some time I'll play some more.

Spent too much time here lately, great site

http://www.otherpower.com/ (scroll down to the bottom for projects and discussion board)

Yup - the solar panels are easy and dependable for whatever they do.  The wind generator is great in storms and wind where the panels may not put out.

Hey pro,

looking great. I think you should seriously consider Jens mailbox stove. I'm thinking about putting a double mailbox stove in my house, I dont think 1 would be enough  ;)

Panel system looks good, I almost bought one of those marine batteries from costco initially but then found a great deal on craigslist for some AGM's at $40 a piece. Haven't found anything close to them since :(

The Costco Marine batteries don't hold up well.  For a smaller system, golf cart batteries would be best - then next step is L16's of which we bought 8 today. d*

The so called Marine Deep Cycle batteries are a waste of money for a home/cabin alternative power system. Golf cart GC2 size are the minimum, IMO. L16's are a better choice, but a tad heavy at about 125 lbs. each. AGM's have their advantages as far as watering goes (none required). It all depends on how much storage capacity one needs.

Glenn, are the new ones additions or replacements?

What I am going to do is separate the old batteries from the new ones - maybe weed out the 4 worst from the 12 existing unless I can recover all of them -- I have a couple bad cells that don't want to come up.

I will run the 8 new ones in a group on the main inverter with the new MPPT controller and run the others on the older PWM 45 amp trace.  That will leave me some to power to balance the batteries back and forth I think or maybe an equalizer switch -- looking for the best way for these but the old ones are 4 and 5 years old and not totally done with yet.

I already have two sets of feeder cables - will have to play with this to balance it out.

Nice glenn,

I'm interested to hear how that works out.  My panels keep getting snow on them and my bank is very low because of it. Thankfully AGMs can go down very low without harm.

i'll have to reread the past posts when I upgrade my battery bank, right now i've just got 1 generic marine deep cycle from wal mart that does all I need

here's me rambling and asking questions about homesteading, my house, and the land, I go in the house and on the deck for a few at about halfway through the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnycjIDkQvI

 prohomesteader

Just took a quick glimps at your video.  Real Golden Globe performance. Here are a couple of suggestions in reference to your plans.

1. Strip grazing has one major disadvantage and that being "water" . Livestock will need to be in contact with a water source.  With Strip grazing the water source will either have to be portable or designed to allow the livestock to reach a permanent water source from any location they are moved to.  You could do a circular plot with the water source in the center and the grazing divided into pie sections.  I think another key to your grazing would be freqent rotation as goats are like sheep in that they will eat the grasses down to and including the roots.  I am sure that cost is on your mind but if you go with strip grazing I would consider fencing the areas rather than a teather as it will make it so much easier to maintain entrance to a water source and allow better animal rotation.

2. Root cellars to work properly need to be buried or at least partially.  So with that in mind you sould find a steep embankment in which to embed the back portion allowing the front to be open for the door.  It doesn't appear that there is a steep embankment so you can go with what you have and then build up the soil around it to form your own embankment.

3. If you are building a barn then try to situate it some distance from the house and if possible not up hill from your well.  I am sure you are considering the wind as you mentioned a windmill.  Situate the barn as the doors are not facing the most previlant wind source.  It is possible to incorporate your root cellar in the foundation of your barn and not have the need for two individual structure.

4.  Barrier to the hill between your house and the barn.  Look like an ideal spot for an orchard.  Try not to incorporate your orchard near the grazing area as grazing animals and leaves usually don't mix. ;D

5.  Chickens. Yeah they need water also.  Again trying to incorporate all that you have into one central area would be a plus.  Consider adding a portion of the barn for the chicken pen.

You might trying to sketch out all the areas that you are wanting to incorporate into the space you have.  You might even think about a centralized barn that serves as a "hub" for everything else. 

I am sure you have your own ideas but these are just a couple to help with your decisions.  This is just off the top of my head.  If I think of anything else I will get back to you. 

I have not watched the video but in seeing ProHome's responses it triggered a thought from something I saw on "Renovation Nation"  on the Green channel, "chicken trucks"? I think that is what they were called.  Should be able to find it on iTunes.  Anyway, they are small chicken coops that are built with frame lumber in a triangular frame (think A frame house) and the walls and floor are chicken wire (who would have guessed).  They are designed with an extended ridge beam (both ends) so a person can move them, either in a circle or move both ends and work your way across a grass section.  The chickens peck the soil, eat the bugs, and poop.  They provide great fertilizer.  So in theory, you could have the chickens work the soil in one section and the goat could reap the benefits by grazing on the grass in a section the chickens have already set up for growth.  Just a thought.

@soomb - yeah, they are chicken "tractors" ;)  pretty neat

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chicken+tractor

@redover - thanks for the responses they really got me thinking

the grazing and getting a few goats water is no big deal, but I was thinking about if I had to pack water to 15 different places it might get old really quick, same thing with going 20 places to feed things.

will for sure try the mapping things out and using a barn as a "hub" so to limit the running around

thanks

Hey, I almost saw a snow flurry!!!!    I feel special...  I am going to study your video for a bit and then formulate a response.  We have done some of the stuff you are wanting to do. 

We really like the book The Self-sufficient Life and How to Live It There is so much knowledge in it. 

First thing is, I hope you are used to planting......  It's going to be tough work until you know what you are doing.  We had upwards of 1.5 acres planted and we would have never done it without the tractor.  You need to be concerned about wildlife eating your gardens.  You will want some high fences.  I am not sure about strip grazing.  I would definately try rotation grazing in small crossfenced areas.  rotate the animals throughout.

I agree with redoverfarm on the orchard. I was going to suggest the same thing. From experience I'd put the cellar and the barn pretty close to the house 30-40' or so away at most 50'. Think also about down wind if you plan to keep animals in the barn in winter. You'll be walking there alot and a long walk will get old quick. Same for the veggie garden. Keep it close by. For livestock water is the trick (redoverfarm is right again on this one). As for crops you'll have to fertilize after a year or two depending on your soil. Unless you make your own this is a big expense. Might want to reconsider that depending on how committed you are. From looking at the size of you place I'd say 1-2 dairy goats 25 or so chickens and maybe a couple of hogs if you can get away with them in your area. A cow would need alot of feed and tear up alot of ground.

I can tell you that 25 chickens will dump about 15-20 eggs a day on average... Egg salad can get old quick :)  However, fresh eggs are always wanted by neighbors. We build a mobile chicken coop and then never moved it.  We let them free range for a long while until the coyotes and hawks started eating chicken before I did.  Now we have a 4' fence in a confined area and let them roam there.  Ours lay lots more eggs if they are allowed to roam over an area than in a smaller area.  For our next farm, we'll build a couple of chicken runs out of 6' high chicken wire with an electric line around it to keep both sides on their side.  I figure 2 runs and alternate them every other month.

I had also tried to come up with a way to build a moveable fence that would circle the coop like the hands of a clock.  This would allow you to have them in 1 area, maybe 3-4 spots in the winter, then plant something there afterward and cycle through the year, moving planting, etc..  I haven't figured out all the parts of that but I thought it might work.

@phalynx - yeah we've got the book and love it!

@scotta - I want the barn closer to the house, my wife want's it farther away, she says it will stink, we'll see

probably map things out this weekend.  been in the teens here the last few days so no working for me

I had a visit on the land yesterday from PHALYNX and didn't take a picture, woops.  All the way from texas and I didn't even get a picture.

Well, he wasn't just here to see me ;)  he was looking around for land.

it was a pleasure to meet you and good luck with your land hunting and decision making.

Quote from: prohomesteader on January 16, 2009, 08:33:53 PM
I want the barn closer to the house, my wife want's it farther away, she says it will stink, we'll see

Depends.  ???

Depends on the individual mind set as much as the individual nose. To some the odor from the horse or cows is a pleasant reminder of the joys of what they're doing or where they're living. Barns smell different, some more so than others. IMO that's partly due to animal types and how hard the owner works at maintaining the cleanliness. I remember the smell of the hay in the loft more than the smells from down below. Maybe that's selective memory at work.  ;)

Oh sure, right,, you met me but "forgot" to get a picture... sure sure...  It was really great meeting with you.  You have a done a great job building your place.  I think you have earned the "metal roof installation certification" for a personal home.  ;)

As for the barn, think about it this way, you will get used to a smell to the point where you won't even notice anymore after a few weeks..... the same cannot be said for the multilpe daily walks to the barn........ if it's far away.

Prohome?  You guys ok there in KY?  Lots of problems there with the storm.  Are you guys doing alright?

doing fine, thanks for asking ;)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/weather/02/01/winter.weather/index.html

never lost power or anything, we were really lucky.  Iced in for most of the week and itching to get back out to the house, last time was the time I saw you there.

wife and I planted our first seeds for the spring tomatoes and peppers and such indoors this evening, doing great ;)

hadn't been around the forum lately so I'll go check your thread and see how things are coming.  any moving news?

EDIT: the images have disappeared. A member found 2 archived images and sent them to me. I attached them to the end of this message. Sorry, they are not very big.


Need advice:  Our house is slowly falling down.  The first picture is holding a level in the level position.  That is the worst pole, the back left, but you can see how far off the post is from being level.  All the other posts are leaning that way also now but a little bit less.  The house itself has remained amazingly level still.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/falling1.jpg)

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/falling2.jpg)

Our best guess why.  When the ice and snow melted it caused the left side of the house (as pictured above) to almost become a stream of water runnoff.  This made that side of the house extremely soft to walk on, you'd sink a couple of inches each step.  The water made it down the 3 foot or more the posts are buried and the posts sunk a bit on that side of the house.  Just guessing, but only one side of the houses ground took on that much water.

So we are in a predicament and looking for any advice you might offer.

If we wanted to hire someone to come give professional advice on the situation who would that be?

Is there anything we can do from keeping the house from falling over more to that side?

How would we determine how far down we needed the posts so that we'd be below whatever water level is causing the poles to sink or move?

What Would You Do In Our Shoes?

Thanks much in advance.

Hired advice will likely do no more than cost you money over what you can get here for free, pro-home.  An engineer will give you the same solution you will have to go to anyway.

It looks as though it is leaning to the left so I am assuming all of it is leaning to the left from your description.  If it is not sinking but only leaning then the first thing to do is to get some diagonal bracing on it. 

I would first get some strap braces or come alongs to keep it from going more.  Strap or come along from the top of your beam in the first picture to the bottom of the center pier and from the top of the center beam to the bottom of the right pier.  If that is not sufficient to pull it without moving the bottoms of the piers in the ground towatrd the beam, then go out to the roght and dig a big hole - bury a decent sized anchor in the solid ground - lead a cable or tie toward the beams of the house and come-along it there also.

Flat strap braces would hold it from going more - they work in tension - then as you pull it back they will bow in and you can reset them.

After you pull it back into place with the comealongs - chain hoists etc then get some diagonal bracing on it to keep it there - Check level of the house after that - - re level - get down to solid earth if necessary and increase thae amount of piers to support it as necessary.

If necessary cut a hole in the floor to get around the beam -

Use as many come alongs - chain hoists etc as necessary to get it back.  A steel co I subbed for had to do this to a 4 story casino an engineer had failed to provide north- south diagonal bracing in.  It also was seriously falling over.

Check the ground to see just how deep it is solid to  - you may have to add piers to that level with substantial concrete footings.

Sometimes ground doesn't always remain as what it appeared to be in the summer.  I would also suggest modifying drainage if necessary when possible and getting water away from the foundation by whatever means necessary - usually a 2% slope away from the house for a ways - 5 to 10 feet at least if I recall correctly.  No matter onm the details - just get it draining away.

thanks glenn, I mean no slight on the advice given in the forum, it's probably better than pro's.  Just that you are there and pro help would be on site and my house was falling  d*

about your advice

what type of anchor would we attach the comealongs to?  it must be huge I assume

and we could really pull the posts back to level with a comealong and a house sitting on them?

where would would you put the strap braces?

we've been down three feet and that wasn't enough, any idea on how to get down past any water, our post hole digger probably won't cut it and I'm guessing it's wet way past 3 feet

funny thing like you mention, in summertime the ground was hard as a rock, it's clay, but had no idea it gets that soft and wet there

No problem about the slight - didn't take it that way.  For pro help that would do something if you are not up to it or things don't work out - I would talk to house movers.  Likely expensive.

You need a triangle to something solid to bring it back and stop it from going more.  A chain around the bottom of the center and right posts with one wrap around the post plus a loop will lock it to the post - in other words two wraps around the post with one loose to hook to.   This will likely arrest movement at the least.

If you note sideways movement of the base of the post when pulling the top of the beam you will need to bury the anchor to the right of the house - maybe 3 if the whole house is leaning  -- one where shown in the pix - one center and one far end.  An anchor could be a truck wheel or a railroad tie - anything big and cheap that will present a large surface against the ground to pull the house back.  A backhoe could do the digging fast if available. 

The screw type chain binders are very effective also - chain to the post bottom - chain to the beam and binder in the middle to pull the chain together.

(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/36000-36099/36023.gif)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=36023

For something  fast to stop more movement a couple 2x6's lagged with 6x 1/2 or so  inch lags from top left to bottom center and top center to bottom right could also help.  Predrill to prevent splitting if you use the lags. They would have to be removed before pulling back as they wont give llke the steel straps will (thinking Simpson diagonal brace straps).

Water past 3 feet or dampness - is it in a swale - underground water movement?   Possibly you will need a drainage system in the ground - rock filled french drain trenches - to drain the water off before it gets there if so - drain down hill to daylight.

Lime can be used  to firm up clay soil - but it needs to be mixed with it and it is hard with the house there.

As high as it is though a backhoe may reach under there to get down to firm ground below at least around the outsides between the existing footings.  Check farther out first if doing that.

First get it stabilized then we can talk about retro-fixes.

Movement can likely be arrested at this point with solid 2x6 bracing at all top s to bottoms but that will make it hard to pull back as I mentioned above.  The same can be accomplished with the Simpson diagonal straps but they only hold by tension - in other words they will not get longer so will arrest the movement to the left.  They could be used at all posts underneath also.

Looking at the old pix - page 2 and this one,

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/rafters1.jpg)

It looks like you are in a low spot with water from above washing over your site.  Combined with the clay and the gravel tamped holes, it leaves what is called a bathtub effect  - the footings fill up with water like a bath tub and that is why it is so wet.  Take a look at the big picture - an over view of your site and I think you will see the problem - I'm just going from your pictures. 

You need to get uphill runoff directed away from your footings as well as house runoff.  I don't think the ground is naturally that wet underneath - it's just runoff collecting in the gravel filled holes.  You need to ditch and regrade above the house to get the water to go around  rather than through under the foundation.

The floor and beam connection looks good at least.  Should be pretty easy to pull it back and ad the bracing.  Plan to bring it back slow, so the post can come back to plumb.  I would run chains around the rim joist on the far side and use anchors like glen said.

Is the floor still level? if so, the post probably aren't sinking.

A couple of 20 ton bottle jacks w/ cribbing could take the weight off the beam if you need to reset a few posts...

You might help keep the water out of those footings by taking a foot or so of gravel out and fill it in with the clay soil, mounded on top.

thanks glenn and r8ingbull

I think we are out of panick mode now

tomorrow we will get some comealongs and chains and head out, we tried tonight but everywhere around here closes early on sunday

the gameplan so far is to attach 3 chains around the beam evenly spaced, connect all to a single comealong, then run 3 chains from it to the bottom of the center posts.  likewise on the other side.

here's a picture to show you  what I'm thinking

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/cure1.jpg)

the only thing I see for sale at lowes is a 1ton or 2ton comealong, hopefully if it's not enough to pull it back  into place it will hold it from moving more.

based on the results we'll decide the next steps.

I'll try and remember to bring the video camera so you can see in moving colors ;)

thanks much again, we'll sleep a bit better this evening, until tomorrow

@mountaindon, the left side of the house (looking from back) is sinking more than the right and pulling right ones over it appears, i reckon that's why the one side has a bigger lean than the other.  we didn't check the levelness of the floor but the walls on thehouse were still pretty level

Quote from: prohomesteader on February 15, 2009, 06:35:14 PM
The house itself has remained amazingly level still

Is this still true?  Is the floor level?

I would bring those post back close to plumb by pulling on the beam.  Once that's done work on each individual post location to make each one perfectly plumb.  After that, get the bracing on to keep it that way.  

I'm a little leery of the idea of pulling on the middle posts.  It might work, but that is going to be a lot of strain, you'll be under the house while cranking on that come-along.  Plus a 2-ton CA doesn't pull as hard as it seems.  If that was all I had, would probably give it a shot too, but would be a lot more comfortable with a few more CA's or chain-falls, etc.

Remember, if that diagram will pull the posts back to plumb you still have to get is braced.  Imagine a failure somewhere and how much movement that is.  It would be like slamming your whole house two inches left...

I lifted my house 1 inch, to replace the sill plate (non-treated, termites), had quotes of ~$6,000.  Managed to get it done in a weekend :)

I agree - at least 3 come-alongs or chains and binders etc.  With the one it will be working against itself.  Each one reduces the load and adds to the total weight that can be moved.

I worry about overdoing it with an electric winch - good communication would be a must and remember that it can go over the opposite way also - careful not to overdo it.

I've been thinking a bit more about this.  There is no way I would go under that house and pull hard on 1 come-along. 

At a bare minimum I would want one on each end, so I could crank and not be under it...

Also for bracing, some nice steel cable with turnbuckles and you could bring it back slowly.  Use the CA's to pull and the cables as bracing.  Move it 1/2" per day and give those posts time to reset/conform.

wow, scary stuff, houses falling on my head or cables taking it off

I'll try and keep from under the house tomorrow then while it's moving

maybe a dumb question but I'm curious, would you disassemble the house and move it to higher or drier ground? 

I'm worried now if we do get it fixed it might keep happening, but possibly without warning and much quicker next time.

Not at all, Pro.  I think that after the regrading is taken care of and the water is kept out of the footings  as well as the bracing, you will not have a problem.

If you look at the pix, the length of the house quite a bit braces itself.  The sideways problem you have is because there is little or no bracing sideways and when the ground softened it wanted to head over.  Diagonal bracing will keep the piers straight and prevent the hinging sideways - then the oly thing will be down pressure.  Again I think the holes are filling with surface runoff and not softening because of the soil itself.

At the worst you may need to add some piers but it sounds as if it is not sinking per your report.

My dads house has been sinking into the ground in Oregon for around 70 years.   They have continued to jack it up over that time until recently when my brother made a cradle -longer foundation --to give it more support.  Getting the diagonal bracing on will support the house from going over sideways.  the explained methods should work to straighten things up.  If there was no need to straighten it up, it could be stabilized exactly where it is right now and still not go down -- the piers would just be crooked.  First thing is to straighten it while you can.

There is no triangularized bracing on the foundation posts, as far as I can see it is unbraced in either direction. A triangle cannot be changed, it is rigid. A 4 sided shape can become a parallellogram, and then a line. In a wall the plywood sheathing or a let in brace does the triangularization. This needs X or Y bracing bolted in when it is replumbed. A vertical post has loads in one direction, down. As it tips it now has force in the horizontal and vertical directions. As it tips more the horizontal forces increase which causes more horizontal movement and thus more force, which makes it tip more, which increases force, which makes it tip even more.... It hits a point where this cycle gets very fast, this time of year with freeze/thaw the soil is pretty fluid. The further out of vertical the harder it is to bring it back and the closer you are to the fast part of that collapse scenario.

If in any doubt crib it up while you are working so that it cannot fall. Looking at the pictures that will take a load of cribbing.

I used 6 truckers ratchet straps, 3 come alongs and a 4 wheel drive truck tipping an apple tree back upright this past fall. Wrapping shirts and coats around the cable also helps slow them down if one breaks.

You may need to support the building, dig out each pier and reset it plumb, then brace and backfill.

An engineer may well be worth a call.

@glenn - I'm also worried that the high tension on the beam might pull it off of the posts, I'll sleep on it but I'm not sure I'm up to moving the entire house, I'll see how I feel in the morning

calling an engineer like donp suggests or house movers or hired help might cost thousands of dollars.  rebuilding with the materials from the existing house costs little more than time (and a new foundation) thats why I mentioned it

@donp- what type of engineer would I call?

Safest bet would be to reach from the right using a ground anchor going clear under it to the left beam to prevent pulling anything apart.  That would be pulling things back toward themselves.

civil/structural on the engineer type should do it.

You could also stand a post 6x6?  vertically to extend past the floor level on the outside left, all the way from the ground up past the floor.  Then put the chain around that so the whole thing is forced to move to the right as a unit - not trying to knock the beams off of the posts.

You may wish to add better straps connecting the posts to the beams also.

A buried Railroad tie in a t slot will make a very effective anchor and be easy to do with a backhoe.  I used similar of steel for my drilling rigs.  The chain would go out the middle leg of the t.

The house, while big cannot be that extremely heavy yet - just a shell I think.

Something like this would be ideal I think.

(https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d184/glennkangiser/pullpiers.jpg)

I don't think it would be that hard to do with a good anchor at each end and chains and or comealongs - chain hoists etc attached as high on the left as possible - the post behind the pier will assure that all moves together.  I would use chains with hooks on the ends and binders as shown above I think as they will really pull and are easy to adjust. 

Wish I was closer to you, Pro.  I'd drop over to help.

Your jeeps and winches could work, Don if they were used very carefully but - it may take more than that.  How about tow trucks.  That might do it.  Very controllable and heavy with anchors, chocks etc.

It doesn't appear to have bracing in either direction, if the posts are plumb in one direction brace that off first so you don't lose it.

A slot trench in the ground that allows a small tree trunk to lay at an angle towards the post tops. With enough large flat 2x12's etc making a foot for the tree and a 12 ton jack at the top of the trunk I think you'll have more shove than come alongs can put out. It might take several rounds of compressing and shimming to get a solid footing compacted.  Push against big timbers on the building not on the building itself to help spread out loads. I'm with Don, if it looks like it won't go, hold it up and replace the legs one at a time and brace them as you go.

A tutorial thread on lateral bracing of this type foundation would be a good idea  ;)

The tutorial could be a good idea, Don.  All situations are different and for some that have problem soil it could be more important than for those like me who have to jackhammer the holes out even in the winter.

Until we get going on that it is basically but not limited to bracing in a triangle from a high point near the floor to a low point on a pier, with something that is fairly substantial.  There are so many ways to do it along with concrete  piers that may not  need it that it will not be a one size fits all deal.

Here is one that Pa Kettle did.

(https://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/jraabe/clipped.jpg)

I guess we need to think about changes occurring as winter comes and holes may fill with water, but sometimes at least in my case I fail to notice until it is past time and a bit late.

Pro sorry I wasn't able to jump in but my Internet was down this morning.  I too would recommend three CA or at least two.  With the cables taunt use a piece of electrical tape around the cables to gauge just how much you have pulled.  This is necessary if both ends need pulled.  If not you will not pull evenly at one time.  Pull til the tape is gauges against the outside then go to the other and do the same.  It keeps the pull consistant on both ends.  Back and forth from one to the other.  I would be afraid to just pull on one end as it might twist and throw the other end out sort of like a scissor action. 

Another advantage of taping the cable is that you know how far you are off kilter.  Put a marker on the cable at the point of the distance and you will know when you are close. 

If I think of anything else that someone else has not touched on I will be back.

thanks all, redover thanks too, don_p, all the post have some lean to them, one side is worse than the other though

we went out today, forgot the memory card so no video but heres a few pics from my phone.  we didn't do anything yet.

tomorrow we will put temporary 2x bracing on and we also have a local general contractor coming to look at it

it appears We Built Our House In A Mudhole   d* d* d*

of course it was hard as rock clay when we built it so we didn't know then

the worst spot on the six acres, the wettest, muddiest spot is on the right side of our house where it's sinking, moving, or whatever it's doing, here's a quick tour of the geography and water

pic1.  up above the house, this is where we are digging up the ground with a spade to put a garden.  very dry here.  the top of the dirt we turned over is already turning a dry color and not damp at all

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/landtour1.jpg)

pic2.  from in front of the house, you should be able to see where the stream was, it is STILL muddy here a week and a half after the thaw and runnoff, this covers a large section under and next to the house

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/landtour2.jpg)

pic3.  still standing water around the front pier, that's how wet and muddy the place still is.  crazy really, the water will just not go anywhere.  it was moving water last week, now it's mostly mud with puddles in our footprints.  this is the front right house pier, not the deck pier.

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/landtour3.jpg)

pic 4. a little bit further away from the last post pictured, you can see this is a super large area that is completely saturated

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/landtour4.jpg)

pic 5.  not sure if you've seen this angle before but you can get a better perspective of the hill to the back left of the house, I'm guessing a good amount of water is also coming from there

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/landtour5.jpg)

I still have it in the back of my head to move the thing to higher ground, especially since it's literally sitting in the wettest spot on our  6 acres, and we plan on being there awhile

but for now we'll brace it tomorrow.  maybe start trenching, although we aren't quite sure yet how big of trenching project to undertake, that's a bunch of wet ground

thanks all for the support, the suggestions have been awesome.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think there is alot of rain with snow to the north coming by Wednesday. I hope you don't get it but it is the storm that is slamming California right now. Pete

I wouldn't move it.  A french drain uphill should take care of the water.

I noticed you dont have any concrete in those holes...Add several thousands pounds of concrete and some diagonal bracing, that house isn't going anywhere.

Basically, right now the only thing keeping that house up, is some gravel in a 2.5'x3' hole.  Get them straight and fill it up with concrete...

A leaning concrete column in mud is going to tip over slower. The posts need to be braced to the building, I've sketched in where they can go.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/landtour2a.jpg)

what I was asking about is plumb in the direction of the yellow bracing. We know the posts are leaning in the direction of the red bracing. are they plumb in the direction of the yellow bracing? I see you have one braced bay in that direction. If it is plumb that way I would add as much of the yellow bracing as you can before disturbing it. This all needs to be bolted for high load, nails won't hold bracing. Then attempt your push or pull and brace the red direction when it's plumb.

I don't think you have settlement if you are on an adequate footing, the jobsite mud is more a symptom of your traffic and the weather right now, i agree that a diversion and it'll be a fine site.

thanks don p, i need to double check level in that direction but your diagram is great,  will be doing some red bracing tomorrow and bought a trenching shovel so going from there.  won't do a french drain right away but want to get the trench started.

thinking more on the anchor, I wonder if I could use 3 post bottoms (or more) on one side to pull only 1 post at a time back to level on the other side like this?

of course this puts me under the house while I'm tightening things, scary to think about but might work

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/3to1.gif)

If you want to try that I'd position the mechanical device right close to the single pole with three longer cables/chains connecting from there to the other three posts. That will reduce the sideways forces on the two end posts.

Its not a post at a time problem. all the posts are equally out of plumb and all need to come back up to plumb together at once. They are simply leaned. I wouldn't be under it.

The floor makes it a solid unit so you won't pull the tops individually.  The bottoms are possible to move individually but we don't want that.

Don_P is right as it sits, - it all has to go together but there is another option - not real easy.

If you do the red bracing, keep in mind that you can't straighten it if it is solid bracing - or you will have to take it off to straighten it.  Nothing wrong with that - just that you will not move the posts wile braced with x2x material without something breaking on getting loosened somewhere.  You can stabilize it where it is at this time  with the red bracing though.

As the others mentioned, grading  such as an uphill walking path, French drain,  etc to get the water and take it around your site will dry it out.  No need to move the house in my opinion.

Straightening and bracing should do it.

Another option ... if moving it all at once won't work - if it won't pull plumb...

How about stabilizing it where it is at, so it can't go more, with diagonal bracing on each leg, then jacking the legs up one at a time and straightening each of them wherever they land in the hole then drill the legs through in the hole,  insert some rebar and pour about a 12 inch concrete base a couple feet or so in diameter,  around each one with it straight in its new location, with the added diagonal bracing.  You may want to laser each leg location to make sure it has remained level.  You would haee to dig the gravel out of the holes one at a time to do this - then straighten the legs one at a time and concrete them.

Just more ideas combining others from above.

thanks all

@glenn you last suggestion is interesting, stabilizing then moving each resetting each pole individually however that wouldn't straighten the beam up

the beam is leaning too

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/falling1.jpg)

but an interesting suggestions assuming the gravel iis coming out at one point or another.

I'm starting to think the 60mph winds the other day might have helped move the house over?

headed out in a few, will at least get braces on the worst posts and work the trenching shovel for awhile.

By using the posts as an anchor, I would say you will move the anchors as much as you move the house, except in the wrong direction.

Most likely this house is not only leaning, but has twisted slightly too.

If you could plot each post on a grid and label amount out of plumb in both directions it would give you a better idea of the movement you're getting.

If you are taking out the gravel, a couple of 20t bottle jacks will take the pressure off so the posts can be reset and concrete added.  Those jacks will straighten that beam up nicely.

How bout the ole tractor push?

Just a couple suggestions here, I've done a little of this kind of repair. I really don't think you will pull everything back to plumb without FIRST removing the gravel.  When the posts moved it created a void on the back (trailing) side of the posts. The gravel settled back into the void.
Forcing it back will require a lot more force if you leave the gravel in and some posts may return to plumb while others may not get there.  Temporary bracing to keep a safe work zone, than removing the gravel may get you there with less force needed. I would definitely not use the bottom of any other post to anchor.  You don't want the bottom of the anchor post to walk in the hole when force is applied. Filling the holes with concrete once plumb and braced is your best bet for preventing further problems.

You may want to see if your water problems are surface related or ground. Probe the ground around your building with a rod / rebar and see if the ground is saturated.  If it feels solid and you can't push the rod in more than let say 6 " you may be in good shape.  If it feels soft and you can bury the rod a french drain would do you well. I would place it up hill and stay 5' - 10' from your building.  You need to have your trench lower than your posts.  If the posts are 2' deep dig your  trench 3'. and drain down and away to daylight.

Good luck and be safe.

ragingbull- thanks,that would be cool if the  bottlejacks straightened the beam up

mike-tractor push might work

diyfrank-interesting point about the additional gravel UNDER the posts now, even if we were to jack the house, remove all the gravel and level the pole, I'm not sure we could get them all leve up and down now,  sheesh

today we got some work done.  added 2 braces and dug about 50-60 feet of a trench.

it hasn't rained in a week but the trench turned into a stream.  the final version will be much bigger and deeper than this but it's already doing the dob at a foot deep

here's the trench

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/trench1.jpg)

here's the braces

(http://www.prohomesteader.com/countryplans/trench2.jpg)

I made a video about the trench showing the water but youtube is down right now so I'll post it tomorrow

Hey Pro,

It doesn't look like you are having much fun right now.  I hope you get it worked out soon.  You said the trench filled up with water.  Did it fill from the start or start seeping in from everywhere?  Is there any chance that the water line that runs by your house has broken?  Water rushing under the posts would certainly cause these types of problems.  I remember the water line being fairly far away, but I think it was uphill from the house.  I think I would put up a couple more braces and then a temp support by the worst post and excavate that hole to find out what caused it.  I think though, you may actually be right about the wind.. You do seem to get plenty of it where you are and a steady 60mph wind or even good gusts could certainly move your house a little without the cross braces. 

Keep us up to date...

No advice better then what has been given----but this situation really drives home the need for good foundation design and soils investigation. Don't mean to sound superior in any way---this could happen to any one of us.

@phalynx, the water is seeping into the ground from almost everywhere so it's just for sure the hill behind the house got too saturated from the snow and melting ice and it just ran and slowed by our house

that's a good idea about more bracing, we will do so in the next few days

here's a video we did with the trench showing what we did and the amount of water seeping out of the ground into the trench

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBdCs0Z7wc8

also, I'm still not sure how if we dig the holes out and reset the posts that we can get them all level UP and DOWN relative to each other even though front/back left/right would be easy enough.

I watched your video, egads thats a lot of water.  Keep your chin up, you'll get things fixed.

Quote from: prohomesteader on February 18, 2009, 09:48:29 AM
@phalynx, the water is seeping into the ground from almost everywhere so it's just for sure the hill behind the house got too saturated from the snow and melting ice and it just ran and slowed by our house

that's a good idea about more bracing, we will do so in the next few days

here's a video we did with the trench showing what we did and the amount of water seeping out of the ground into the trench

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBdCs0Z7wc8

also, I'm still not sure how if we dig the holes out and reset the posts that we can get them all level UP and DOWN relative to each other even though front/back left/right would be easy enough.

Do you have any concrete in those post holes?

As far as getting them level, you can raise the beam slightly (1") using bottle jacks and cribbing.  Dig out the gravel (use it in your french drain).  Either set the post in concrete or pour a concrete pier.  Leave the post a bit high.  When all the post under a beam are set, trim them down to level height.  Lower the beam back onto the posts.  You might end up lowering the beam a 1/2" but it won't matter.

I think the water is the least of the problems...#1 is the bracing and #2 is the lack of concrete in the holes.  Right now, I figure you have this entire structure weight loaded onto about 3 square feet of dirt.

Also I would get a 2x brace on each post in both directions.

Wow! That ground is saturated big time! The last time I saw something like that was when the flood waters were retreating from the sandbag dikes we built around a friend's home.

That is a serious water problem. If that is the norm for springtime you need more than simple bracing to keep the building plumb and level, IMO.

How deep down is the ground saturated like that?

the deepest we went was about 2 feet in one hole.  when you get down that deep there is no water initially, but if you leave the hole there for 10 minutes and check it again it will be slowly getting a puddle at the bottom.  the dirt at two feet fresh out on the shovel is moist.  not sure how far down that goes but that's it at 2 feet

we have a general contractor coming by tomorrow at 5 to look at it and see what he thinks, having someone else actually standing in the mud and seeing the lean in person might give us a better idea of the direction to take.

yes it's probably like this every spring I'm assuming.  we haven't seen the spring rain yet either, and that video shows the water with no rain in about a week and no snow melting for just as long, just runnoff from the snow that melted and a small amount of rain.

We are still unsure about the direction we are taking other then adding more braces tomorrow and talking to the contractor.

There are many good and very much appreciated suggestions here but we don't want to hurt ourselves and want to invest our time and resources wisely so we are proceeding with caution right now.

Best of luck on what the contractor has to say, prohomesteader.

I hope he treats you right pro.  It does look wet! :o

hi PRO, sorry about your troubles. I wanted to say that I thought r8tingbulls idea sounds really good, your house is high enough off the ground that you could jack it up, reset the post w/ concrete and then use a transit and cut the post level atsay afoot lower and then lower back down. Im sure its easier said than done, Im also not an expert, but watching closely hoping you get it worked out.

thanks all.  got stood up by the contractor this evening.

still thinking of moving to higher ground.  the only thing worse than your house leaning is investing a bunch to fix it the leaning house, then paying $6000 to put a septic in there, plus more to finish it there, just to have it lean again and decide in a couple years we should have moved it to better ground.

I'll keep you updated.

Lets us know if the contractor ever shows up and what he says. Pete

If the posts are braced then the lateral stability, the sway bracing, of the foundation is restrained by the braces, of know strength. Unbraced, the lateral stability of the foundation is dependent on the soil to keep the posts from leaning, a big unknown. Add the leverage of tall posts and the need for more sway bracing grows.

If you brace the posts wherever you end up then they will not lean, they may sink but that is a footing matter. If you rely on the soil to provide the stability to the foundation then the results are going to be variable.

If you do much more on your own, the girder/post connection is looking a little iffy if you do much jostling. Another post or a section of scrap channel bolted across the joint might help reinforce it from rolling.
(https://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x109/windyhilll/posttobeam.jpg)

I assume septic is down in front where the river ganges is heading... how did it perc?

The wife and I decided to rebuild on higher ground.

We decided to build a 200sqft home for temporary housing using mostly salvaged material from the leaning house.

We'll build it at the top of the hill ;)

We will add a strawbale addition to it later in the year (maybe 800sqft).  We'd like to build a strawbale home 100% from start but we want to get out on the land sooner than later.

I'll probably start on the tinyhouse early next week.

Thanks all for the suggestions and support.

Did the contractor show up? Keep us updated. Will you be able to use most of the wood from the currect structure? Pete

Sorry to hear that.  Just remember, no matter where you build you need concrete and bracing.  I'm sure this structure on top of that hill would be leaning just the same.

Let us know how it goes....

Wow.. too bad. What a loss!
No interest in moving what you have to higher ground.
Maybe put it on skids. Drag it, then reset?
If I didn't live so far away, I would be there helping.

@peteh2833 - the contractor never showed up.  I did call about two dozen civil engineers, structural engineers, home builders assocations, inspectors, foundation companies, etc.

I had one question

"can I pay you to come out to my property and test the location I have a house and make a foundation recommendation for it"

We were trying to figure out if the ground was worth keeping the house there to even start to fix it there.  NONE of those people would do it.  The people you need are a "geotechnical engineer".

They are really hard to find and when you do they are EXPENSIVE.  $2500 is the cheapest we could get one to showup for and do the drilling to test the earth below the house and said nobody would make a recommendation on a foundation depth and type without doing some drilling and knowing what was under everything.

They also said most residential developers DON'T do soil and ground research.

- not sure if all the wood is salvageable but we'll do our best

@r8ingbull  - oh yeah, we'll be using tons of bracing and using concrete footers.  For the 200sqft we'll probably use sonotube 10inch wide concrete footers and set the posts on top of them.  For the strawbale we'll probably do a poured footer crawl space.

@diyfrank - We learned a ton about ourselves and about building and had a blast doing it plus we have tons of salvagable wood there.  No loss for us  :D 

Quote from: prohomesteader on February 21, 2009, 09:36:15 AM
.... we'll probably use sonotube 10inch wide concrete footers and set the posts on top of them. 

Just to clarify some terms....  A round sonotube "thing" is not a footer.

For a post or pier the footer is the pad at the bottom of the hole, usually poured concrete, of no less than 16" x 16" x 8" thick, with 1/2" rebar set in it.

Some folks like to use the Bigfoot. A sonotube is inserted into the molded end and the whole thing can be poured at once.

The footer is what distributes the load of the building over a larger area than is possible with just a pier/post. That's is what you need to have to avoid sinking.

Pro, You can look up your soil type here.
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/ (http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/)
Hit the green button and select your area.
Here is a report from my place.
(https://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/diyfrank/soilreport.jpg)

You can build there. It's more of a matter of having a suitable foundation.
The Bigfoot system Don mentioned is a pretty stout way to go. you also need to probe the ground your footings will set on. If its still soft you will have to dig down till you have a solid base.
The water is no big deal. Half of America is built on wet ground.  You need to gain control of the problem. A proper french drain should do that. As I said earlier, You need to be below the footings and uphill 5'-10'
Place a perforated pipe in the bottom and fill the trench with drain rock.  Geo techs are required on all the jobs Ive worked on if dirt is cut and filled. The bank will want documentation. If no fill is placed, It's only if you want an analysis done.
I wouldn't say your ground is bad from what I've seen you post.
#1 Your post holes where over dug.
#2 They were filled in with an excessive amount of rock.
#3 You had no bracing on the structure
#4 bad weather hit and caught you unprepared.
lessons learned for everyone following your project.

I'm late coming to this dramatic sage.... OMG, I'm so sorry this happened to you.  I am not so experienced like The Great Glenn (sincere) and many here, but I've done some.  Personally.... I'd fix it where it is.  The bottom line seems to be what one of the others said.  If you get everything back to fairly good square and level, and have the posts re-set in concrete with a broader footing, and then you tie it all together with bracing.... it ain't going anywhere!  A little sinking can always be caught....jacked up and shimmed.   

With chains, jacks and come-alongs or winches, you can do tremendous things.  You did great building this place, you're logic and the guidance here would help you set that thing straight.   Again..... what I think you'd be left with is a very sturdy building with a little up/down susceptibility at worst.   

I bought a 1930s balloon wall bungalow back in the 80's.  The side walls of the house were bowing out.  The multi-layered shingled roof had too few collar beams in the attic (that had a 3 of 4' knee wall and one dormed out corner for future expansion).  The rafters were pushing the walls out, literally ripping the studs out of the floor joists.   

I had three or four come-alongs across the attic pulling steel L brackets draped over the top of the knee walls...between the rafters.   
I bolted the ends of chain from rafters on one side across to the other creating a saddle.   
I used auto floor jacks to jack up a vertical 4X4 post to push up against a horizontal 4X4 post lying under the chain bridging across the rafters. 
Little by little I put pressure on everything.  A little upward pressure on the jacks.  A little horizontal pull on the come-alongs. 
I pushed the whole roof up.....and brought the walls together....easily.  It took hours to set up, and a very short time to these major parts of the building back to where they were supposed to be. 
Having been a auto body man I had some feel for heavy work by doing frame work with hydraulics on Cadillacs, and I took the mechanical approach to securing the building then.  I drilled holes through the balloon wall 2 X 4s and the floor joists and bolted it all together before I took the pressure off.  Put a few more collar ties up too then!
That was 23 years ago.  A while later I dormed out most of one side of the roof and built an apartment up there.  My new bride and I lived upstairs and my retired folks lived in the lower unit. I don't live there anymore but I seen it recently and it's still nice and straight down the side ( I look!).

Regarding dismantling your building....much of the lumber will get busted up and not be very useable.  Same with the sheeting. 
I would fix your place where it is..... you got some fantastic advice here.   With the economy so bad...maybe a guy and a tractor...or a guy and a tow truck, or what ever might be a good move............... or best yet, but yeh...not cheap, I'd talk to a house mover or two.  Jacking that up and resting those posts on much stronger concrete bases seems like the right way to go to me. 
I may try the easy way first.  Big posts on the outside of the crooked wall....across numerous posts. With chains going under the house to a tow truck / tractor or two on the other side....and give here a gradual pull.  The one guy mentioned problems of re-settled gravel in the void let by the moving post may be a problem..... but then again, that earth has so much give in it that it just might compress the earth as it's pulled back.   
This short cut with the beam (or post to post rapped chains) pulled by a tractor/truck would be so easy to try, I'd do it cause it would be fascinating / fun. 
If that wouldn't work...then I'd go with the jack up and re-set post technique.

Maybe your mind is made up..... and so be it, you're the one who has to live with the decision.  I sure admire where you will live, and the amazing amount of work you have done to put that nice place up.  If you don't mind doing it again....heck, have at it.  But you'll be re=purchasing a lot of material.  Putting that money to work hiring a little help might be a lot easier and quicker. 
Sorry if I'm too pushy with my two cents here....  Just wanted you to know, you CAN do it. 

Thank you for all your sharing here....including the big problem.... I learn SO much from Great Glen and the others in meaningful posts like this, thanks for giving them something to work on!  We all sincerely wish you the best in this.  What you have done already as an individual transcends what 98% of the population would tackle...and you have learned so much, and shared so much....thanks.

I think its fixable.  I think it would much less work to fix than to rebuild.  I don't think it's dropped, only leaning.  I would put it back to vertical and put lots of bracing and I think you'll be fine.

ProHome,  I have spent about 2 hours today reading your entire thread,  I too am building a cabin and have been surfing this forum for ideas of what to do and more importantly not to do.  I am no expert but a very experienced DIYer!  Your issues here compelled me to my first post on this forum.

First and foremost congratulations on your first (that I can tell) building project, things only get bigger as you go along.  The bumps in the road have been a learning curve that all of us go thru,  just dont make to many of the same mistakes.   I have built a several houses big and small from the ground up and I must say at least one or two of them were straight and level. 

So I say all that to say this,  pick your head up,  take a deep breath and keep going.  Your mistake in the foundation was a big one yes, but not unfixable.   I have no new advice for a cure all of the above is great advice,  however if it were me, the jacking the house up, supporting it, and re setting the post would be my choice. 

Do not give up on you and your wifes dream! 

OK OK  I will quit with the inspirational speech.

Bill

I must say that I agree with with the last postings.  It is fixable by you right where it is sitting.  It will not likely be reusable if you dismantle it.  I do not think the ground is that bad.  My dad's house was built at the confluence of two creeks and has been sinking for 70 years but is still there and was re-leveled and a decent foundation put under it by my brother last year. 

I think there are some pretty good ideas posted above to fix it.  All is not lost.  I fix bigger problems than that every month for my customers and you can do it too.

If you don't want to then that is your choice. 

I think re-grading and drains above and around the site, will take care of the water problem.  At the worst, bracing and then repairing one footing at a time will take care of the rest of the problem.  Water getting into the footings has turned them into buckets of mud, but that is not that big a problem to fix.

@all - I understand the house can be fixed, If I didn't think anything was possible I would have never attempted to build my own house in the first place.

The decision came down to the house can be fixed  but at what cost?  And where will we be the happiest?

1.  On higher ground with a more stable house.

2.  Deeper and Deeper financially invested in a location we just aren't happy with anymore.

So we are moving and I'm sure we will be much happier.

I do appreciate all of the help, advice, and support you've given but I'm not here to defend personal decisions and it's not a good use of my time.

We begin work on the new house this week.  If a mod could close this thread that would be cool since development on the 1.5 story in Kentucky is now done.

Exciting times are ahead.  I will be updating the status of the new home, eventually, at this address: prohomesteader.com

Good luck in your building adventures,
Mark

Hi Mark, I can understand your decision and as to closing this topic, sure I can do that

Before we go I want to thank diyfrank for the link to the USDA soils database. That informaiton can help folks find out about what type of soil they are building in.

I've done a tutorial on using it here: http://www.planhelp.com/members/104.cfm

I'll repost this in the Resources forum so it is not lost.