has anyone site built fixed windows here?
ok, I guess not :)
no hard feelings- site built windows are pretty specific and uncommon
No. I thought of it for one smallish fixed window ten years ago, and gave up the idea.
Why did you give up?
Making a weatherproof seal as good as what could be accomplished with a factory made window did not seem to be worth the effort. I bought a window made to fit the hole from a local window company
Quote from: 1201 on November 18, 2020, 06:49:26 PM
ok, I guess not :)
no hard feelings- site built windows are pretty specific and uncommon
Heh, I briefly considered it, but passed on the idea for my cabin. Time constraints are the biggest concern there.
On the other hand, I may be sort of tackling this on my home this year. I have an entryway with tall skinny fixed windows. Thinking I may replace them with insulated glass units I get made by a supplier....But I need to figure out the same detail Don metions...how water running down the glass will interact with wood on the bottom. Might be as simple as using..."silicone" glazing....or actually creating a frame and glazing it with good ol' Sarco... Dunno yet...... On the other hand, don't they do this with like storefront windows all the time?
Let's see if these will show up, not quite what you are asking about but what we've been working on recently, some period double hungs on a historic house.
[see matthewswindows.jpg below]
The first wall in primer with 4 new windows.
[see matthessided.jpg below]
Uhh, yeah, they called us in for an "easy" residing job. Rotten sills, termites holding hands, butchered framing, out of plumb and level, change of use to higher loadings. We are digging out underneath for a new foundation, its on vertical shale, a geology lesson I could do without :D.
I've done a number of fixed panes, usually triangles and trapezoid glass. Sloped sills, either applied or rabbeted for glass with interior wood stops, generally bedded in polybutyl caulk or tape, rubber setting blocks. Get the supplier to measure the glass, that way measurement screw ups are on them. Yes it is wood and has a lifespan like any wood window. I've also done one sunroom using aluminum extrusions, silicone rubber seals, aluminum snap caps, think restaurant sunroom. Many glass suppliers are capable of that and install which is the way to go in your case, I saw the post when you first made it saying there were no overhangs, build it like a greenhouse, the walls are the same as the roof, water running down them every rain. Not the best plan IMO.
[edited 1/16/2024 to fix broken image links]
Don, nice work. I priced the aluminum windows from glass shops and they want about 1k for each opening. Ouch. The glass itself is less than. $150.
I can't do anything about not having overhangs now, nor would I want to. Cape cods don't have overhangs and they seem to do ok.
Nate- let us know what you decide to do. The crazy thing? Non tempered 3x8 window, double pane lo- e, single hung $190
Tempered fixed window same size $600.
I'm almost tempted to use the non tempered and just protect them with a 2x rail 34 inches from the ground, to meet code. It's really tempting
Quote from: Don_PWe are digging out underneath for a new foundation, its on vertical shale, a geology lesson I could do without
I don't know much about shale so I did a search. The first link I opened had this to say....
"Engineering Properties of Shale Soils
Shales and the soils derived from them are some of the most troublesome materials to build upon. They are subject to changes in volume and competence that generally make them unreliable construction substrates."Anyhow those are nice looking windows, great millwork, Don.
You get to do some very interesting projects. Wish we were closer.
1201 google greenhouse and sunroom aluminum glazing extrusions, or similar keywords and you should get hits for DIY options.
Don, this shale is interesting, I think the house is where it is because the plow bounced off of that rise :D Shale is variably metamorphosed fine clay, so a sedimentary, horizontally layered rock. When fully metamorphosed it is slate. The layers of this is standing vertically so it was upended during the mountain building thrust. As a side note modern brick is now pretty much exclusively made from grinding shale rather than from digging clay, which was the old way. This stuff is fine bearing-wise, the mistake they made was digging out a partial root cellar at some point, much respect for the effort that took by hand. The problem is the vertical shale is weak in terms of shearing off when dug that way and they didn't build foundation walls there, assuming they were in "rock". It has sloughed off over the course of 125 years or so and the dry laid foundation atop that pit is failing. Like most old houses it is too close to the ground so we are going to excavate under the majority of it and put in a foundation from that root cellar depth, maybe a bit deeper... bobcat deep ;D.
That house is part of the local farm museum, my partner and I recently bought a early 1900's farm scale gristmill that will live there, still looking for a hit and miss to run it with there. We've ground fresh cornmeal and made hominy so have been enjoying playing with it. The gentleman we bought it from is 96, sharp as a tack, a lifetime miller who restores them nowadays. Anyway the poplar being used in those 18 windows was a donated tree that we milled up and kiln dried, a good sized one that was endangering a house. The logs were too much for my little bobcat so we had to take the Alaskan mill out and rip them in half to load and bring home, 2 trailers a tad overloaded.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/DBpop.jpg)
When a log gets too big for tongs this is an old pair of forged chain dogs, hammer them in and lift or skid
(http://timbertoolbox.com/cp/chaindogs.jpg)
The sills are white oak from one I had milled here several years ago.
Thanks for the update and general info on the old farmhouse.
Years ago we found a chain with chain dog hooks on the ends. At the time I had no idea what it was, but one of my 4WD club friends knew. It was on the site of an old sawmill in the Jemez Mtns here in NM. I sold it for $20.
I think if you order the double pane glass, building a frame wouldn't be any harder - maybe less - than doing kitchen cabinets.
I have had to replace a couple top panes of Andersen windows now. The glass is just caulked into a frame with trim applied on top. The marketing makes them sound fancy, but they are really simple and lackluster quality.
Amish and some others around here also make the double pane windows themselves. Filling the double panes with gas that has no moisture in it probably isn't that hard, although I don't know if it's worth the time and expense of set up.
If I ever replace the windows on my house I would definitely build them myself. I would do 1 at least a year ahead of time to test performance and any needed adjustments though.
Don P , I'll look into the window extrusions. Thanks!
NathanS,
I don't think it should be anywhere near as difficult as cabinets. This used to be done frequently for lots of fixed windows. They built them without a jamb. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to get them water proof.
Right now I'm leaning towards this method
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/1981/09/01/installing-fixed-windows
These look cool. Maybe I should try this sometime.
Just to update the group
I found 34x76 double pane units locally for $78 each but I didn't go with those. The 34x92 were very close to what I need for $180.
I found a national company that still makes clear glass windows. Aluminum frame with thermal break,exact size, double pane, non-tempered single hungs for $230 each
I decided to go with these to avoid having to build a window frame. Apparently single hungs don't need to be tempered because the bottom glass is less than 9 square feet and the top glass bottom edge is more than 18 inches of the floor
Good deal. On the tempered exclusion double check the exempt and required locations, I believe its in chapter 3 of the IRC under glazings/ hazardous locations. You'll run into potentially still needing tempered near doorways, stairs, showers, etc so worth a double check.
We are still plugging away at digging under the old farmhouse. I misspoke, the continuing geology lesson, what I was calling shale is actually a schist, so yup, we're in deep schist :D. Santa brought me a jackhammer ;D. We're about 30' in, 7' deep and 10' wide thus far so we have a "path" under the center of the main 2 story house. We'll start under the kitchen wing and then dig out under the walls to 8'8", jack and support and build foundation walls. I blew a lift cylinder on the skidsteer Thurs, tore it down and ordered parts Christmas eve so we're down till they arrive, which is fine by me in this cold and snowy snap! Happy Holidays everyone!
Sounds like a good idea on the windows, 1201, as long as tempered is not needed or wanted.
Happy Holidays Don and everyone! No snow here for now; maybe some by Tuesday.
So shist is a little bit harder than shale it seems. It also appears that the shist was likely shale before becoming shist and there are almost a dozen types of shist.
Don p, that's too funny. I had to look it up to make sure you weren't joking. Apparently that soil is the schist for grape growing for wine making.
I reread the code today and I made a mistake and will need to reorder three of the 16 windows in tempered. I thought the 2x4 bar would solve the problem but only in some cases, ie, windows adjacent to a door need to be tempered with no exceptions I can see.
Mountain Don, thanks. It's definitely a simple and affordable way to have a lot of glazing
Glad you caught it in time to change the order. Chapter 3 has the most gotcha's but think through what you are doing and review each chapter prior to getting into it, I reread sections frequently while we are working.
This is a good geology map I came across, you can pan around, zoom in on an area of interest then click on it for details.
https://macrostrat.org/map/#/z=1.5/x=16/y=23/bedrock/lines/
That is cool about it being vineyard soil... I guess that explains the defunct vineyard nearby. I was over at the job checking on the critters today and got a few shots;
The approach, I dug a ramp in where the old root cellar door was and we built a temporary extension onto the porch roof to try to keep it from flooding off the roof(s) and into the basement, not perfect but it helps.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/matthews/matthewsdig.jpg)
Looking at the dug face, the little "post" dangling from the floor joists show how close to the ground they built this thing ~4-6"
(http://timbertoolbox.com/matthews/matthewsdig1.jpg)
Spinning around and looking back towards the entrance, not much left, do not try this at home!
(http://timbertoolbox.com/matthews/matthewsdig2.jpg)
and some of the schist, we're winning but it is putting up a fight. If you ever hit crystalline bedrock DexPan high expanding grout works well, this is too soft for that, it's right in the gnarly zone.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/matthews/matthewsdig3.jpg)
Spent this afternoon in the shop working on the windows, long ways to go there.
Quote from: Don_P on December 28, 2020, 06:49:04 PM
This is a good geology map I came across, you can pan around, zoom in on an area of interest then click on it for details.
https://macrostrat.org/map/#/z=1.5/x=16/y=23/bedrock/lines/
Cool map. Thanks for that
Quote from: Don_P on December 28, 2020, 06:49:04 PM
The approach, I dug a ramp in where the old root cellar door was and we built a temporary extension onto the porch roof to try to keep it from flooding off the roof(s) and into the basement, not perfect but it helps.
(http://timbertoolbox.com/matthews/matthewsdig.jpg)
Looks like an entrance to an underground parking garage. :)
i guess I should be thankful for the super soft soil we have here. basically clay or soft shale down to 250 ft. when we had our well dug. it took them less than two hours to get to 160ft
I would love to tackle home-made low energy fixed windows. My small exposure to physics leaves me with the strong notion that a vacuum is far better, "heat transfer wise", than any gas-fill: inert or otherwise. Having "mastered" the service of home and auto ac systems, I have the pumping equipment and knowledge to evacuate a rigid "leak-resistant" enclosure of air. My scheme would include fixed, dual paned window assemblages using thick tempered glass. (Think table top glass.) Each window piece would have to have the volume between the window panes ported and accessible. Before installation, each assembly could be vacuum checked for days or weeks. Upon installation, several (perhaps all) windows could be connected with out-of-sight high pressure tubing and gauge. All the windows could be daisy-chained together, or not. Tanks, vacuum-reservoirs, could be added to offset small leakages. The gauge(s) and necessary port(s) could be located in a service closet or such. Periodic gauge readings would be necessary. Leakage can be expected, the question is ... could it be managed so the system would be effective?
Dangerous Old Man thinking ...
VERY dangerous thinking. ;D
I think vacuum IGUs were tried already, and abandoned. When you have a huge pressure difference between atmosphere and the interior of the IGU, it makes it MUCH more difficult for seals to do the job through all temps (and baro swings). I thought part of the reason for the fill was to keep the pressure differential between the panes and the outside to a minimum.
OTOH, if you're going to actively maintain that vacuum, it could work. But doing that on an operable window? Tough.....and I wonder how much better the U factor would even be?
Yes, movable windows would increase the challenge. Inert gas is best for seal life; inert plus no oxygen, no moisture. How much better would be the U factor? ...probably some avail info on line.
I may just build up an experimental unit and see what it yields ... "leak wise".
I've about given up on sealed units, how much energy are we really saving if the glazing has to be replaced every 10-20 years because of seal failure. I'd agree that a vacuum is going to be better but maintaining that seal will be a deal breaker. Years ago I was building in the Black Hills, around a mile high, the argon filled windows had been made on the east coast close to sea level. We would watch the glass kind of balloon a little one day and call the local glass shop for a broken window the next :D
Quote from: Don_P on January 09, 2021, 12:45:21 PM
I've about given up on sealed units, how much energy are we really saving if the glazing has to be replaced every 10-20 years because of seal failure. I'd agree that a vacuum is going to be better but maintaining that seal will be a deal breaker. Years ago I was building in the Black Hills, around a mile high, the argon filled windows had been made on the east coast close to sea level. We would watch the glass kind of balloon a little one day and call the local glass shop for a broken window the next :D
100% in agreement with this.
I'll bet that the payback time for the $$$ high performance windows vs old single panes + storm windows w/ attention to sealing would take generations to pay back the energy savings difference.
And then, that doesn't account for the fact that the modern windows are unlikely to last as long as the storm window setup.
Perhaps we should forgo windows altogether. Think more modernly. Just hang high resolution digital displays on the interior walls. On the exterior of our perfectly non-permeable structures, mount outward facing cameras aligned with the interior displays, and ...
Not a good idea I believe, for something like glass.
I have used vacuum bagging as a means of clamping a thin panel such as 0.030" thick aluminum to one side of a 2" thick XPS foam panel along with a 1/4" plywood panel on the other. Once the adhesive is applied the assembly is placed in a large plastic bag or wrapped with a plastic sheet. A hose and vacuum pump (sometimes a shop vac can be used) is used to evacuate the air. That is sometimes a challenge if a ready-made vacuum bag of the required size is not available. Anyhow, the atmospheric pressure clamping action of the panel assembly is superb at clamping the assembly and squeezing out all the excess adhesive.
Re: sealed units..... we have a window firm here that makes windows here in the same locale they sell. Their factory is a few hundred feet lower in elevation than our home. We installed their windows in 1985. They have all been replaced with a newer, improved version from the same maker, except for one window in the garage. That window still remains free of any internal indications of seal failure. The original windows were all still vapor free when replaced about 10 years ago. The only reason for replacement was to get the newer, much better-insulated frames and do away with the cold weather interior condensation. Not everyone is blessed with a top-rated window maker in their town though.
Quote from: JRR on January 09, 2021, 05:18:53 PM
Perhaps we should forgo windows altogether. Think more modernly. Just hang high resolution digital displays on the interior walls. On the exterior of our perfectly non-permeable structures, mount outward facing cameras aligned with the interior displays, and ...
Hahaha
I remember a few years ago greenbuildingadvisor trying to advertise for someone attempting to sell "the most airtight" house in Alaska. I'm sure the measurements were astounding, but the house was hideous.
People don't take care of ugly things.
Sometimes "science" causes us "miss the forest for the trees."
Quote from: NathanS on January 10, 2021, 11:10:01 AM
Hahaha
People don't take care of ugly things.
Thanks for your kindness toward my effort at humor. As for care of ugly things ... I'm well tended, so far.
Back on insulated windows, even if the space between glass panes is perfectly evacuated, there is still loss due to radiation. Which may be significant as delta-temp increases. No way to win! Back to the trees and caves!
Jrr,I personally would love to have vacuum glass. But I fear that, like a lot of other "high performance" building science, the cure is more costly then the problem.
The glass in our windows is all shot, it's on the honeydew list. It was one of those bleeding edge of the tech products at the time. They suspended a mylar film layer between the two panes, effectively making a triple pane. The low E coating could be ordered to accept heat from outside or reflect it back inward depending on orientation and location. When new they were a very well insulated window and with the overhangs sized for the seasonal sun angles they did a good job solar tempering the house. The mylar contributed to seal failure so that one isn't done any more. I'm half tempted to make them this time, unsealed with a removable inner pane.
Quote from: Don_P on January 13, 2021, 10:17:44 PMI'm half tempted to make them this time, unsealed with a removable inner pane.
Bingo! My (real) thoughts exactly. 1/2" tempered in both planes. With an 1" or more inner space. Having the inner pane removable for occasional cleaning makes a whole bunch of sense to me. On windows where visibility isn't an issue, one could always stuff in clear bubbled packaging material for improvements in U factor.
I remember reading somewhere, sometime, long, long ago... ::) that at larger than about 3/4" between panes it sets up a convective loop. But yes, making them so they can be cleaned between the panes periodically. There was a prototype I saw somewhere that filled the space with insulation beads at night then sucked them up in the daytime, I don't think it was ever produced. Jefferson's Monticello has double sashes with about a foot in between them in the entry, heavy masonry walls. Another neat feature in that house was the air conditioning duct into his study. Out in the yard some distance from the house is a masonry inlet, then a subsurface small tunnel/duct that terminates in the wall in his study discharging the cooler groundish temp air inside as the breeze blew outside.
Quote from: Don_P on January 13, 2021, 10:17:44 PM
I'm half tempted to make them this time, unsealed with a removable inner pane.
The reverse of the windows in the house I grew up in. That WW1 era house had exterior "storm windows" that were hung on the exterior every fall and removed every spring. That sure would have been easier for some of the windows considering it was a 2-1/2 story.
Quote from: JRR on January 09, 2021, 05:18:53 PM
Perhaps we should forgo windows altogether. Think more modernly. Just hang high resolution digital displays on the interior walls. On the exterior of our perfectly non-permeable structures, mount outward facing cameras aligned with the interior displays, and ...
Once we have to move to the underground silos, that'll be one option... :-\
Of interest, perhaps:
.
https://www.interstateplastics.com/16mm-Polycarbonate-Hurricane-And-Storm-Panel-Full-Sheet-POLCECKSW.php?kitoptionpk=7246&src=adwordspla&thisisforcallrail=1&campaignid=225228743&adgroupid=37851262274&creative=153445283219&matchtype=&network=d&device=c&keyword=sheets-POLCECKSW-kits7246&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6t6ABhDMARIsAONIYyx1iw-9ScPzK6-bczrujlKOnv1mFoU9yn8S3axhYrtA1fo-Y13xCNUaAjXPEALw_wcB&
.
I would build a representative sized window that you could use. Install it to be waterproof or windproof and painted then get a quote on a similar sized double-pane with a nailing fin to compare. Labor does matter, how much is up to you. My past experience and guess is that the manufactured window (a simple size and type, aluminum or vinyl – not a wood triple hung swinging 16 divided lite) will be cheaper when its finally installed. Installing home-builts to be weather proof can be quite time consuming. When getting a quote also look toward warranty time-frames. Consumer Reports did an article on gas filled or just plain vacuumed a while back. Found the different gases degraded with time (or leaked) and the vacuumed types held.
Think this mirrors what most of the readers are also saying.