Hi All,
I am going to see a piece of property in upper New York State (Chateaugay) tomorrow morning. I had emails a ton of questions to the local code enforcer and he only gave me a 1 liner reply saying "There are no zoning laws in the Town, however all construction must meet NYS Building Codes". I am therefore going through the building code but I think I need to be a lawyer to understand what they are talking about.
Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the NYS building codes? Specifically, I asked him if I could camp, use a camper trailer, and/or build a small cabin and what the restrictions were for each. He did not address this so I assume that means I am allowed to camp (multiple tents on the site), I assume I can park a trailer there (at least until I build). I specifically wanted to know if I needed to be connected to electric, septic, etc if I build myself. Some places do not let you use a chemical toilet, I think most won't let you do a home made septic system.
I believe someone on another thread mentioned that a building under 200 sqft is considered a shed and therefore does not require permits? Does anyone know if this applies to New York state?
Wish me luck... I am all butterflies. It is a 5 acre lot with about 230' bordering the Chateaugay river. (Apparently some excellent rainbow trout fishing there). Anything I should be looking out for?
Squirl is our resident 'expert' on NYS bldg code. Have a look at this site. It has the IRC specific as used by NYS NYS IRC (http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ny/st/b400v10/index.htm)
Note that things like whether or not you can park an RV while building does not fall under any building code. That is planning and zoning on some level; county, municipality, whatever.
Requirements for septic, composting toilet and grey water come under the state sanitation department most likely; counties may have rules on that too as may towns, cities, municipalities.
Some places will install electric with no other requirements. We (NM) could have been grid connected to a pole just inside the priperty line or anywheres within with no oher requirements other than an address.
Hopefully squirl will drop by and add anything specific that he has learned. G?L.
And the 200 sq ft rule (less in some places, possibly more in some) is normally specifically directed at auxiliary or accessory structures, not habitable buildings. This can vary with jurisdiction as can enforcement. Where I am located the application for a building permit specifies the limits and habitable buildings are not included in the exemption.
Well... I saw the land.
There are 6 lots in total, 4 of which are in my budget. Lots 1 and 2 and the cheapest @ $8000 for 5A each, but the land looks water logged.
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/Lot1Wet_zps87aad57e.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/Lot1Wet_zps87aad57e.jpg.html)
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/Lot2Pond_zps9b43dea1.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/Lot2Pond_zps9b43dea1.jpg.html)
Lots 3 and 4 are at $10000 for 5A. These look much dryer (probably 5' higher in elevation) and there are currently 2 horses roaming on the land (presumably some neighbor's horses there to graze and keep the grass mowed)
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/Lot3Horse_zps28712da4.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/Lot3Horse_zps28712da4.jpg.html)
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/TwoHorses_zpsf4db9e30.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/TwoHorses_zpsf4db9e30.jpg.html)
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/Lot3-4BigTree_zps2517dbe7.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/Lot3-4BigTree_zps2517dbe7.jpg.html)
The first 200-300 feet back is pretty much clear cut. Then there is thick bush, thorns and raspberry bushes. At one point there is a steep drop and the last 200 feet up to the river is swamp (luckily I was wearing rubber boots but I kept sinking 4-6 inches and losing a boot).
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/HillSwamp_zps85b226b2.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/HillSwamp_zps85b226b2.jpg.html)
The river itself is pretty nice.
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/RiverLeft_zpsa96163b8.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/RiverLeft_zpsa96163b8.jpg.html)
(https://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a429/adamrobillard/RiverRight_zps09b8a098.jpg) (https://s1034.photobucket.com/user/adamrobillard/media/RiverRight_zps09b8a098.jpg.html)
So, now the decision. Basically, the land can't be sold as waterfront because the last acre in back is inaccessible. I went with my buddy and his father who has a few tractors and bulldozers. He said the ground is too soft to bring any heavy equipment in there. I would need to see if the sharp drop is all rock or soil that can be pushed down the hill and used to fill some of the swamp. If not, it would have to be done by hand, but his theory is that if you can dig trenches all the way back to the river, it will give a place for all that water to pool and drain to the river, thereby drying off the land. If not, that part is completely useless.
I may offer based solely on the land that I can access (consider it as "dry land"), but then it would only be worth 1/2 of what they are asking.
I knew it had to be too good to be true.
Adam a couple observations
I doubt from what I see much of that is do able for a conventional septic system. If any of that 'dry ground' will pass a perk test then still you have set backs from live streams, rivers and ponds. Also a septic system has to be set back so many feet from a property line and so many feet from a well. A conventional system of course is the most convenient and most likely the most cost effective barring a path to a pit toilet. (Out house) With all that water doubt that would be do able. :D
Then also with all the standing water I doubt it would be very enjoyable in mosquito season. Be very careful when filling swamps, slews and 'waste ground'. If it is listed on a Federal Wet Lands list you might just loose everything and have to restore it back to how you found it.
How high above the river are the dry lots? I'd be very careful, or you could end up on the evening news as your house floats away. Water can come up a surprising amount, and surprisingly fast. We looked at a number of lots here in SC with creeks, only to find that most or all of the lot fell within a flood plain- no thanks. It seems like we have a 'storm of the century' about ever other year these days.
I agree with being careful around that "useless" bottom land. We're realizing that type of ground is very critical to recharge our deep water and what we do to it is being increasingly regulated. Each time we drain or channel it to a flowing creek we lose that water which would otherwise percolate and filter down to recharge the aquifer as runoff to a flowing creek. The creek is increasingly scoured and experiences flash floods and erosion while our wells go dry. For us the Department of Environmental Quality, DEQ, oversees any disturbances to these areas, I'm sure you have a similar agency. Before making an offer I would contact them and see what is possible.
Adam
Here is a link to the NYS building code
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ny/st/index.htm
In Franklin county where I am building you need to have a designed certified septic system before you can get a building permit, Framing Inspection, Insulation Inspection, Electrical inspection, and of course final inspection before you can get a certificate for occupancy. Framing and insulation were done by the local inspector. Septic and electrical are completed by a licensed inspector.
Here is an idea of the land.
(https://i.imgur.com/XNx5q0B.jpg)
The dry spots have to be some 100' above the river. The drawing does not do it justice, but it does show how the last 150-200 are probably not usable because of the steep stop and wet soil. Up above it is definitely dry enough to build, although I would need to have it inspected for septic. The mosquitoes were insane, I had at least 20-30 on each arm at any given time. I am pretty sure this lot is out of the running.
How enjoyable is the land when completely dry? What I mean is, the river / stream / lake makes it much more interesting, but it is completely useless without the water?
And the hunt continues...
Be very cautious about building or modifying land in or near wetland areas in New York State. Wetland protection regulation is extensive, and sometimes enforced fanatically. There will be some sort of offset from any year-round wet area (stream, swamp, lake, puddle) to where you can build. This applies to structures, septic, and even roads. There are lots of grey areas, and if there is any question you may have to apply to your local conservation commission or state environment department for any variances, which may, or more likely, may not be granted. The variance permitting process can be onerous in its requirements. Ever see a construction site with lots of hay bales delineating boundaries? Those are marking wetland offsets before construction begins.
Is the building site unquestionably dry year round and 200 feet or so from any wetland?
Do you have to cross any wetlands to get to your building site?
If there are wetlands, big red flag and proceed cautiously. Sometimes local conservation commissions will visit a site and advise you.
It is lovely country. The mosquitos are insane this time of year and black and deer flies too in April and May. Wetlands will bring more of those too. Late summer, fall and winter are just wonderful.
P.S. As I understanding trenching or draining wetlands in ANY way is a BIG no-no.
Definitely a lot of red flags to consider here... I will have to call around and see what I can find out for free... and if I have to call in some experts at my own expense then I will speak with the agent to see what they have to say about my concerns and if they would consider less money due to the complications. Worse case I move on... or dramatically scale back my plans, get a small trailer and use a chemical toilet (just to have something now while I wait for a better lot to come along). I dunno how I feel about that though... many pluses and minuses for it.
Thanks for all the input!
Just because land is offered for sale does not mean it is buildable. Or maybe sometimes building is possible if the wallet/checkbook is large enough. It is not uncommon to see a lot and wonder how anythinmg could be done with it. There's a lot next to us in that category. I doubt anyone will ever buy it or do anything with it.
On the other hand-- there may be wetlands, but that does not preclude you from building on dry areas, which may be quite sufficient. Wetlands attract wildlife which may a real plus. It seems lovely property.
Quote from: hpinson on June 30, 2013, 03:07:21 PM
On the other hand-- there may be wetlands, but that does not preclude you from building on dry areas, which may be quite sufficient. Wetlands attract wildlife which may a real plus. It seems lovely property.
The dry part does look quite dry... and if I could clear some trees to get a view of the water and then build something like this, they we might be in business! :)
(http://www.istartedsomething.com/bingimages/cache/KhongorynEls_EN-GB7646917306_1366x768.jpg)
Most NY building codes come into play in habitable structures over 140 square feet. It is up to the local county/municipality.
New Land Owner posted the code, this is the state enforcement agency. Somewhere in there it has the 140 square foot requirement.
http://www.dos.ny.gov/DCEA/
I don't know how much data your local county has to publish.
Septic is governed by the NYS department of health code.
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
It is usually enforced by the building inspector, but a select few counties have hired engineers to do inspections.
In all but a few areas, NY state requires and certified engineer to design, inspect, and and certify the septic is as built.
In my land contract, I had a clause inserted by my lawyer, "the property shall be certified for a conventional gravity fed septic drainfield" as a condition of the sale. I paid for testing before the sale ($500 to later be credited to the engineered design and inspection). Be careful with the language in the contract. In the eyes of an engineer almost no property fails septic, but the cost for the alternative system is more than most people want to pay (20-25K). Typically the test is done by hiring an engineer to do a perk test and a deep hole (4 ft) soil examination.
As new land owner stated, without a passing septic test, you can't get a permit to build a residence.
Some people have gotten building permits to build sheds and outbuildings, but then it leaves you up to the mercy of any neighbor that may have a beef with you to turn you in if you stay in it as a cabin. Some places won't issue a permit for them, without a residence. When I broke ground almost every neighbor called to see if I passed everything for my permit.
It looks like you are going to have a heck of a time placing septic on these. Cheap land is cheap for a reason.
Beyond the septic, the codes themselves aren't that complicated. Basic visual framing books will be in accordance with most of the code, and should be very similar to what you have in Canada.
The energy code should be almost identical and can be found in the first link I posted. Some jurisdictions have "seasonal" classifications, which allows you skip the energy code requirements.
Check where the electric lines are too. Generally the first 500 ft of line is free. After that it can get expensive quickly. I opted for solar. (Cheap land was cheap for a reason.)
Most jurisdictions require engineered stamped plans on buildings over 1500 square feet and on anything unconventional or outside of the code. A lot of this should all be outlined in the permit application itself.
Just ask if you have any specific questions about any of the provisions. There is even a section of the form were people have posted guides to specific sections.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?board=14.0
I am going to head back for a second look at the land with someone that knows the exact boundaries, then see if I should make an offer.
I want to call the code enforcer tomorrow to get as much info as possible before heading down and offering anything.
Is there a list of specific questions I need to ask him?
I am pretty new at this, so am not sure what I need to ask.
*Edit: I decided to potentially go for this as a starter plot and simply park a trailer on it. The trailer has everything designed into it so there is no need for septic or anything else. I want to draw water from the river, store it in tanks and use battery/solar or simply a small gas motor or generator for generic stuff. Most everything I want to run off the propane. This would allow me the chance to enjoy the land now, and not have to wait another 10 years for a similar lot to show up. That is, if the land is not already sold and the seller accepts my offer. I am also planning on calling the other agencies to see what information I can get considering the septic and wetlands. From all of the maps I have found online, this land is not part of the protected wetlands. Also, there is a document from 2006 explaining a "hunting / fishing" cabin I can build providing I do not have indoor plumbing. (http://apa.ny.gov/Forms/SIR_Hunting_and_Fishing_Cabin.pdf)
Adam
I do not think the land you are looking at is in the APA. That is a good thing but I am not sure if the rule you refer to would apply.
Tom
http://apa.ny.gov/Forms/SIR_Hunting_and_Fishing_Cabin.pdf
There is so much history behind that document. I'm really happy to see that such an allowance for hunting and fishing cabins still exists within the park. That is very much within the vision and heritage of the Adirondack Park. Thanks for posting it. I have a great love for the region, and was fortunate to have hiked the Northville-Lake Placid Trail many years ago.
Lots 3&4 look awful nice. Is the land you are considering in the park?
What questions to ask?
You might want to pick up a copy of this book before asking questions or making an offer:
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Buying-Your-Place-Country/dp/0793117852
Some of your questions may become conditions on the offer. If possible, don't be in a big hurry. There is plenty of good affordable land in upstate New York.
Not all of what follows will be relevant to your situation. I've starred the ones I think critical.
* Clear title in the form of a Warranty Deed.
* Current legal survey defining boundary. Don't take anyone's word for it.
* Septic system soil viability, and any special condition building requirements.
* Water source (well, spring). Surface water sources (stream/ pond) may not be allowable or advisable.
* Water quality.
* Wetlands that preclude building.
* Unrestricted access to property (do you have to cross someone else's land to get to your property and can they restrict access?)
* Access to power? Solar exposure?
* Cell phone/ land line/ internet access?
* Road maintenance. Public road or private road? Who pays for and does the road maintenance work?
* Neighbors (good neighbors are pretty darn important).
* Crime. Are you in a high, moderate, low burglary area-- call local PD to find out. Talk to the Chief or Sheriff.
Covenants and restrictions that may affect how you use the property. Examples are restrictions on RV dwelling, size and style of structure allowable, time limits on a build. etc.
Existing liens that may restrict how you use the property?
Part of a subdivision? Are you OK with that and all the BS that often goes with it?
Home Owner Association (viability, any existing legal actions or fights). Can be a good or bad thing.
Water/ Mineral (oil and gas)/ Timber Rights?
Access to shopping/ schools/ churches/ emergency medical care/ and jobs?
There are more!
Thanks for all the info... I ordered the book along with the "working alone" that someone posted.
This parcel is gone! I called up the agent and there was already 2 other people in a bidding war for the property. I knew it would go fast... at least I learned a lot and have a better idea what to look for when the next lot pops up.
"Working Alone" rocks. 8) I'm sorry about the land being sold, but know there will be others as good or better!
Well, it has been a while since the last land I went to see, but I have another one in my sites.
This one is a 6.67 acre lot in Constable NY. It is wide with the street and the entire length wraps around a small river. Looks great on paper, hopefully will go see in not this weekend but the next. I am trying my darndest to get in touch with the local code enforcement officer but the phone just rings, and the email address given to me by the real estate agent bounces back.
This lot is a bit more expensive than the last one... but I am hoping the wife with lighten up on me. :) The seller is asking $18,000 but it has been on the market for 570 something days. I think I can get it for $15,000 if it meets my needs.
My wife, out of the blue, tells me she wants to go up north to see a cabin in the woods for sale. She has been doing all the calculations all week and even planned the visit with the agent for tomorrow at noon. This is the same woman that was mad I was even considering land for $5000 and it now going to see a cabin for $30,000. I don't get it... so if we like it I may be more in the renovation rather than building phase... and if I don't I will try to sell her on this lot... once I go visit it. I will follow up with some pictures tomorrow of the cabin... and next week of the land.
Here is a satellite view of the property, at least as near as I can figure the boundaries are.
(https://i.imgur.com/H5tTzlJ.jpg)
And this is a Google terrain view, I enhanced the image so that I can more clearly see the land. It seems to be a sharp drop right before the river (the yellow X is where the neighbor build their house (flat) and the blue X is where I figured I could also do the same (seems flat from this view) and then there appears to be a more gradual slope on the left towards the water. There are supposed to be trout in that river, and the agent says there are more deer in this area than people.
(https://i.imgur.com/l3muBF9.jpg)
Wow, what a dump that place was. Seems 3 brothers bought some land and built 3 cabins at some point, then later sold. So each lot has some 30,000 sqft of land however all 3 cabin are build within spitting distance of each other, and the rest of the land is near impossible to walk on let alone build on (would need some heavy duty machinery, this is in the mountains and the ground very soft with old dead debris and there are boulders from 3 - 8 feet in diameter scattered everywhere). The cabin itself is sitting on blocks... just loose piles here and there, which are sitting on patio stone, which have since cracked and are folding into the ground. Whatever plumbing may have existed has been removed because the owner owns two of the 3 cabins and uses this one as a sauna. The septic is nothing more than an open pit outside with a makeshift leanto type plywood thingy covering it, you can look in and see water with stuff floating. The only sink is missing all the taps... the toilet was removed... and he said there is a well but he removed the pump to use somewhere else, so you have to take his word for it. Not a good sign... the 3rd cabin was redone and is owned by someone that lives there year round. From the balcony, you can stretch your arm out and touch a giant orange school bus - that owner is a school bus driver. No privacy at all.
While we were there some other car came up. They spoke to my wife, backed up and left. I thought it was for directions or something but they also drove the hour and 20 to get there only to turn around without even getting out of the car.
So my attention turns back to the land. I need to prove to my wife that it is worth it to buy land and to either build or to put a pre-built cabin at least as a temporary measure. She is afraid about the water in and water out aspect. I need to do some major calculations... but if the perfect land can be had for $15,000, I need to show that another $10k can get us setup with at least something small but usable.
Researching the web on septic systems... the average is like $3k - $5k to install (if you have good drainage etc.). If there are problems you can go up to the $10k range right there. If I can sell her on a grey water system, with a chemical or other type of toilet that should make things easier to fit into the budget. With the river below, water in should mostly be a matter of a pump and hose, storage tank... and there there's power. Batteries and a solar panel as a start, just for the basics. Gonna be a tough sell.
Don't underestimate the time/ effort it takes to clean up old messes. Our property was similar, and I have spent 3 years getting it back into shape, and am not yet done. On the other hand, the land is so special-- time spent there, camping mostly, is a joy. There is much usable land for building, however the site of the derelict structures is best -- so it is serious work.
Because of the mess, the purchase price was quite low. I guess it balances out though. If I had the cash to hire out cleanup, it would have gone much faster.
Oh I totally agree... fixing something that was improperly built can be harder and more expensive than just starting fresh.
I am actually willing to consider something like this, just as a temporary cabin to get started with.
http://www.adirondackstoragebarns.com/camp-buildings/adk-cabin
You can get a 12x20 for $4500 - bit steep but they deliver... add a chem toilet and some walls and you're ready to go.
(http://www.adirondackstoragebarns.com/sites/default/files/styles/main-picture/public/main-building-pictures/adk-cabin.jpg?itok=b5OKCXkZ)
I realize the top part of this thread is old but as someone who bought a wetland property and went through the process with my state Enviromental Department of getting everything cleared up, let me echo as loudly as possible what hpinson said regarding regulations.
This is no joke. Google 'Mike and Chantell Sackett'.
My property was a 'dry wetlands property', that is to say essentially no standing water, mostly plant indicators but towards the rear, it got a bit mucky. The back half of the property- which is probably the 'prettiest' part- is essentially unbuildable barring tens of thousands of dollars in mitigation credits. If someone didn't know that wetlands regulations were in force, they would have no idea of that.
Pictures such as the ones seen above, with significant standing water, some of those properties I wouldn't even consider without first having an informal delineation performed. What may appear to be 'the high part' of the property that you assume is buildable very well may still be considered wetlands per hydrologic indicators. The 'wetlands' may run up well past the obviously wet part, leaving you with tricky setback issues, etc.
In short, unless you understand what you're dealing with in wetlands, don't get involved with them.
As far as just going cowboy and bringing in the buddy with the bulldozer and changing stuff around, bear in mind that the National Wetlands Inventory is pretty well established and it interplays with GIS systems. Whenever the ariel images for the GIS system are updated, the system will automatically notify the administrator of parcel modification. Seriously, the days of 'just build a cabin and keep your mouth shut' are really coming to an end due to all this.
Anyway, point being, don't think for a second that whoever is sitting in the office in charge of the National Wetlands Inventory doesn't have access to the same tools that local guys have when they nail people putting up illegal sheds as far as identifying people illegally modifying wetlands. Whether its a good law or a bad one is immaterial to the fact that it is a law and it is very much enforced.
On the most recent property, it sounds like a code enforcement time bomb.
I get the feeling you're drawn to seemingly 'underpriced' properties.
I don't quite understand what tangent you are going on about, as I never mention building something outside of code or hidden away from an inspector's sight. I literally said I am trying to contact the local code enforcer before even visiting the land to make sure it suits what I am looking for. Did you deliberately not read that part or mix up two threads in your head? Also, are you from this area? Are you an expert at what the prices for land are around here? I can easily find land priced at $500 per acre... this lot is 6.5 acres selling for $18,000... that is 5 1/2 times the price of any dry lot in the area. The land may only have 1 acre of buildable land, since there is a house (yellow X) right next to where my possible (blue X) is on my rendering. They built a full sized house with full foundation... and I fully intend to ask them if I see someone outside as well.
My best guess (until I hear back from the code enforcer) is that people do not want to spend $18k on just 1 acre of usable land. If the current owner does not want to get stuck with the rest that can't be used or sold then he won't split the lot to sell either. For my needs, I want buffer area, so I don't need more than a small area with the rest to hide from the public. I don't want to see other houses or cars on the street, so this lot would make sense if it is allowed to be used for my purposes.
I am now considering just parking an camper trailer on the lot. I am finding a lot locally in very good shape (26'-32') and since they have everything contained (holding tanks for black, grey and fresh water) they are likely more tolerated if this is indeed classified as wetlands. I will need to look into it.
So the only relevant part of your reply is with respect to your own experience with wetlands. I have also heard from others the nightmares that can arise from touching anything wetlands. Building a pond and then having to put it back the way it was... sounds like a headache waiting to happen.
Looking at the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, this lot MAY actually be in the clear. I will need to call them before any offers are made for sure.
(https://i.imgur.com/gqBctHA.jpg)
The red bounding box is approximately where the land outline is. It is close though... will need to really make sure before hand.
Well, your initial posts were about buying what are absolutely, 100% wetlands and then just getting your friend with a bulldozer to 'make a path' or whatever the case was. It was clear you had absolutely no idea what you were doing (and likely still don't).
Your next post was about buying what amounted to a hovel (exposed septic, etc).
On the basis of your first post, you very well may be 'one of those people' who are completely oblivious to land use regulations and don't realize the enormous pain in the ass you're in for if you buy a property that has unpermitted structures and/or waste disposal hazards.
Your first post was about wetland properties that you clearly didn't realize were regulated, your second strongly described a code violation property (because while I'm not from that area, I'm confident that open cess pools aren't in code pretty much everywhere) that while it may have existed undisturbed for some, you'd be kicking up a municipal hornets nest when it transferred.
All of these things are symptoms of a 'land bargain hunter' who knows how to go on realtor.com, set to 'lowest price first' and then doesn't concern himself with why that property is selling for 1/3rd what typical like properties in the area are selling for. You can dig in and get obstinately defensive when I point this out which is fine, that must just be your nature, but after you're done flailing, pause and ask yourself if maybe what I'm saying doesn't ring a bit true.
I had a old cess pit too, and in order to get a permit for an outhouse, or any kind of build, that pit had to be filled and the in pipe capped. The electric company would not even talk to me without that squared away. It was not a big job - a day with a shovel. Fortunately the County was not picky about how it was collapsed and filled. The just let me do it, and prove it with pictures. But, I understand that some regulators can be quite picky about collapsing old cess pits - requiring professionals in hazmat suits running backhoes and all that. I think it varies a great deal state-to-state and probably at the county and town level too. When you talk with the inspector ask what the requirements are for dealing with this. You may have to deal with it at the sale (MA towns would definitely require that) or only when you pull a septic permit.
These are all good reasons to bring down the price when you make an offer. A requirement could be that the owner deals with these problems as a condition of sale.
You also want to check if trailers are allowed as residences. That has changed a lot lately, across the country. A lot of towns are NOT allowing it anymore, or only for short periods - six months - 1 year during a documented build. It's going to vary a lot locally I expect.
A question about the map - wetlands will include the river flood plain, up to a certain flood level (100 year - 500 year), and I don't see that reflected on the map. On the aerial photo, it looks like the building site is well above the river. Ask the county or town if, for sure, your proposed building site is out of the flood plain.
So are there trout in Trout River?
Quote from: Building on June 17, 2014, 06:19:26 PM
...It was clear you had absolutely no idea what you were doing (and likely still don't).
Your next post was about buying what amounted to a hovel (exposed septic, etc).
And you are obviously nothing more than a complete idiot.
I saw a cabin for sale. I went to see it. I saw a cess pit and immediately said, no thanks. How the hell does that at all say that I was about to buy a place with a cess pit? You can't read, just shut the heck up and leave my thread alone.
Quote from: hpinson on June 17, 2014, 06:57:31 PM
...You also want to check if trailers are allowed as residences. That has changed a lot lately, across the country...
A question about the map - wetlands will include the river flood plain, up to a certain flood level (100 year - 500 year), and I don't see that reflected on the map. On the aerial photo, it looks like the building site is well above the river. Ask the county or town if, for sure, your proposed building site is out of the flood plain.
So are there trout in Trout River?
In Churubusco where I was initially looking, you are allowed trailers. This is where my friends lot is. Last I spoke with the code inspector from this area he was very slack of the rules. No wetlands apply to those lots and they don't seem to care much, but I still would rather pull permits for everything and make sure everything is as legal as can be. Most of the area they permit the campers when I have checked, and I believe in this one area as well. This was one of my first questions for the code enforcer. The wetlands is something that really needs to be looked into. Even those maps are sometimes out of date. From the looks of the map the "flat" part is 20-30' above the river. They recommend calling the DEC. My idea is to first get info from the code enforcer, to see if there are building restrictions and trailer restrictions for the area. If he says it's a go, my next step is to go see that land for myself. I might not like it in person. From there, it would be a matter of finding out from the DEC and other agencies to see what other restrictions might exist, and check with local septic and well companies to see what the estimated costs would be. Then decide from there. At this point I am just looking partially for fun.
Quote from: Adam Roby on June 17, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
And you are obviously nothing more than a complete idiot.
I saw a cabin for sale. I went to see it. I saw a cess pit and immediately said, no thanks. How the hell does that at all say that I was about to buy a place with a cess pit? You can't read, just shut the heck up and leave my thread alone.
The two properties you've posted about thus far are
1) Wetlands properties that you had no idea were regulated ("my buddy with a bulldozer...")
2) A property that had an open cess pool and people turning back after seeing it first glance.
I know how those properties price, I know the people apt to be most intrigued by them and they're the same people who think they can get their buddy with the bulldozer and just start in on a wetland patch. That is to say, clueless. You can squeal and howl and call names all you please but the problem is ultimately yours. You seem to be one of those guys who's attracted to buying other peoples expensive problems, because they're a 'bargain'. I'd wish you good luck with that, but I know how that turns out. You apparently don't.
I think the points have been adressed by all. Let's move on.
I got some feedback from the code enforcer.
Quote
A building and/or septic permit will be required.
The minimum set back from the water for a structure is 50'
The minimum set back for leach field from the water is 100' with 100' separation between well & septic system.
You are allowed to build all this by yourself and use a chemical toilet.
There is not any public sewer or water supply available at this location, but there is electrical which you can optionally connect to.
You can set up a camper or trailer on the property as long as you install the necessary water supply and septic system, unless the camper is all self contained.
So at least initially, it is worth a visit to the site. My wife said she was wanting to go for a drive so she will likely tag along and come up with me and my daughter tomorrow. We will look at it as a drive in the country, and a stop along the way. If it turns out to be what I am looking for, then I start calling the different wetlands agencies (the inspector did not reply to that question so he may simply not know - or missed the question). You also get a feeling for the place when there in person that is missing when looking on-line. If the neighboring area looks cruddy then I may think twice about it. As usual, I just like scouting areas to know what to expect when other lots pop up, and we enjoy the drive in the countryside, stopping at local family run restaurants and talking with the owners. You don't get that in the city.
There are some farms in the area, I wonder if I should be concerned with the river's water quality (chemical/animal feces runoff etc) as far as using that source for bathing or dishes? I suppose I could take a sample of the river and have some agency test it for a fee? Anyone ever do this before?
Your NRCS, natural resource conservation service, office can likely tell you about streamwater quality.
Finding the property on google earth and checking out the neighborhood from the air can tell you about things you can't see from the road.
Upstream farms would definitely be of concern in terms of leeched contaminants. There is a lot of that in up-state NY. Also old mainly abandoned mill/ factory sites along the rivers and streams that leech some really bad stuff. Coliform contamination is in all surface water to some degree or other. If there are livestock or beavers around, Giardia.
I would think most any surface water is suspect without treatment. Definitely for drinking and dishes, and likely for bathing in: You just never know what is going into a stream, clean as it may appear.
I wrote up some thoughts on water testing about a year back.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11258.0
You would probably have more luck with a private lab than a public agency in terms of a on-demand analysis. Cost is $150 and up depending on what you test for. Mine cost about $375 and was worth it for peace of mind about my drinking water source.
Passing the tests, to my satisfaction, was a condition of sale.
I was reminded of all that again a few weeks back- finishing up a backpacking trip in a pristine Wilderness area in southern Utah. At one point, this particular trail wandered down into a wash, which was running. It was a hot day and we decided to just walk down the "Wilderness" stream. Pretty soon we came to a pipe exposed in the bank, and behind that pipe was a tank washing out of the sand bank. The pipe was flowing. Above was a nice green farm field in the otherwise barren desert. Pretty much all the backpackers were getting water from that river downstream-- though most were filtering.
I used to have a job as a bridge inspector, relatively near where you are looking for land. We were in the water a lot. We kept up on our Hepatitis, Tetanus, and Diphtheria shots.
A good indication of a badly polluted water source is a lot of algea growth.
Echo Don_P about Google Earth. Live in that sucker before considering making an offer.
I was looking for the NRCS but somehow landed on the Natural Resources Defense Council, which when contacted, the NRDC told me they do not do any regional monitoring, so they referred me to the http://www.scorecard.org/ (http://www.scorecard.org/). This site seems to have ratings for different categories of pollution or containments.
Most of the statistics are out dated, but looking at the county is shows it to be amongst the cleanest top 20% of all counties in the US.
Ranked above average of all counties in the U.S. in terms of carbon monoxide emissions... (less population maybe?)
Based on EPA's most current data, this county ranked among the cleaner 30% of all counties in the US in terms of noncancer hazards from hazardous air pollutants.
Still trying to decipher the water statistics... They either have no data or NY State as a whole has the worse water on the planet. ???
I was sick all weekend, could not go see the land. Will probably be postponed until after my vacation in July at this point.
My wife is going nuts looking at chalet's up North. There seems to be an abundance foreclosures, with new ones popping up every day. That is not the norm for this area, asking prices are 1/2 of their municipal evaluations. Very strange... but I like driving in the country so we may spend the summer looking at different places... you never know what you may stumble upon.
Edit
Forgot to comment on the Google map stuff. Yeah, I always do extensive area searches using 3 main sites, Google, Bing and Yahoo. They all have different perspectives, and something that you can not see in one can sometimes be very visible in another. I strongly recommend trying all 3 when searching an area. Once you are satisfied with the satellite feeds, then you can also do a virtual drive by using street view. I like to drive around the properties, and get a feel for the neighborhood that way as well. Actually seeing the land for yourself obviously gives you a perspective you can not get online... so that is always my preferred method, actually walking the perimeter of the land and seeing everything with my own eyes. Also, most of these maps are 2 or more years old, so things change with time.
This may help.
The National Surface Water Quality Assessment Program (NAWQA)
http://water.usgs.gov/nawqa/
It may be a bit overwhelming. There is a lot of detail if you dig.
United States Geological Survey, Water Resources Division in Albany may be of help with their publications too. They do a lot of local work monitoring both surface- and ground-water quality
Damn... agent just called me to say a cash offer was made and the seller has accepted. This is what happens when you listen to your wife instead of your gut. Would have been too quick anyways, would have had to make an offer with the condition of it being not a wetlands protected area.
On to the next I suppose.
* Agent told me he would tell me what it sold for once everything goes through, just so I know for the next one. Kind of strange that is sat for 550 days until I got interested in it though.
Sounds like your interest was used to motivate a buyer.