9/11 Truthers are nuts!

[Sassy]

9/11 Truthers are Nuts!

Or are they?

Let's take a look:

MILITARY LEADERS

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan (Col. Ronald D. Ray) said that the official story of 9/11 is "the dog that doesn't hunt" (bio)

Director of the U.S. "Star Wars" space defense program in both Republican and Democratic administrations, who was a senior air force colonel who flew 101 combat missions (Col. Robert Bowman) stated that 9/11 was an inside job. He also said:

   "If our government had merely [done] nothing, and I say that as an old interceptor pilot—I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were, and I know what they've changed them to—if our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason!"  read on at link below

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/11/overwhelming-majority-of-credible.html

[glenn kangiser]

They speak up.

http://www.henrymakow.com/filmmaker_was_at_pentagon_on_9.html  Read the comments at the end also.

Being suppressed and blackballed in the US - you can acquire it here.  I did and will support those who will speak up.

http://www.severevisibility.com/

[peternap]

They speak up.

http://www.henrymakow.com/filmmaker_was_at_pentagon_on_9.html  Read the comments at the end also.

Being suppressed and blackballed in the US - you can acquire it here.  I did and will support those who will speak up.

http://www.severevisibility.com/

Glenn, I usually take a close at what you post because there's always a good bit of truth in it....This is BS though. The filmmaker is yanking everyone's chain. I had employees in the building when it was hit and it was hit.

It also took me the rest of the day to get them out. The locked the whole place down.

[Windpower]

I have not seen this film

but

one has to ask

why is this film is being black balled in the US but not in Europe ?


IMO the official conspiracy theory of 911 is a fabrication

We may never know the truth

but the 'official conspiracy theory' as proposed by the 911 Commision is full of holes and non facts

Bob Bowman is and honorable and excellent pilot

he is a core member at this website

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/


I am member No. 147 there

[MountainDon]

...This is BS though.

 

[glenn kangiser]

No question that it was hit.... by something........ hmm

There is one other possibility also.

There are some infiltrating the 9/11 truth movements to take away credibility from the quest for facts about the unanswered questions.  I will check it out and give it a skeptical look - as well as checking out the evidence he will supposedly provide.  I only saw the trailer and was half asleep when I did that.

[MountainDon]

"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today

from...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm

[rwanders]

I am always bemused by people who usually are anxious to describe how incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid the government is but when something like 9/11 occurs are equally sure that same incompetent government somehow manages to organize some vast conspiracy, pull it off and then maintain secrecy among the hundreds or thousands of incompetent government employees required to accomplish the plan or deeds. The same employees who cannot keep anything secret from the media cockroaches the rest of the time.

Give me a break!!   

[pagan]

Personally I do not find our government incompetent, lazy, unorganized and simply stupid. Rather, I believe the people who staff our government to be well educated, thoughtful and well meaning in their attempts at performing their jobs to the best of their abilities. It's the elected officials who tend to fill the aforementioned description. Unfortunately our government employees are directed by those same elected officials and that's where problems arise.

Two planes did hit the WTC, who flew them is the question. I have difficulty believing two men who were such poor pilots that they could not barely fly level in training flights yet could, under extreme stress, hijack these planes, disengage the autopilot and transponders even though they had no training on performing these actions, and then fly the planes into buildings at full throttle while fully believing Air Force fighters were being scrambled to intercept them as per government policy. None of them even trained for flying commercial jets, and one was not allowed to solo because his flight skills were so poor, yet he flew his plane into the Pentagon after performing flight maneuvers exceeding the ability of the aircraft.

There are too many questions and inconsistencies, and we'll never know the truth.

[MountainDon]

Two planes did hit the WTC, who flew them is the question.

What about the Pentagon and flight 93? But that's another theory.

I have difficulty believing two men who were such poor pilots that they could not barely fly level in training flights yet could, under extreme stress...

First I'd like to say that what you or I might interpret as being under great stress, was more likely a source of great euphoric joy for them. Being on the last legs of their journey to martyrdom more than likely gave them strengths they did not exhibit when in flight school.

Second, flying an airplane under good weather conditions is not as difficult as one might think. One of the reasons given for refusing to rent a Cessna to Hani Hanjour was that he had great problems with landing the plane. Landing is a necessity if you are the owner of the plane that someone wants to rent from you. Crashing into a building does not require the same skills as landing the aircraft smoothly and safely. If you divide flying into three parts, take off, flight from A to B and landing, landing in the most difficult part and flying from point to point is the easiest. Crashing just requires pointing the plane at a particular spot. During WW2, thousands of Kamikaze pilots received just enough training to fly short distances and crash their aircraft into US naval ships.

I do not have a pilot license, but I have flown a small plane (Beech Bonanza), making turns, ascents and descents, all with a pilot friend ready to take over if the need arose. (I have also brought the same plane in on the approach and landed it; again with my friend at the ready, but the need to land safely is not a requisite for crashing a plane.)

A big plane can be easier to fly than a small one as they are not bumped around by air currents as readily. Pilots work their way from small to big for many reasons, some of them economic. It's cheaper to replace a dinged small aircraft than a big one.

Commercial pilots spend most of their training learning how to deal with extremes of weather and systems failures, as well as how to land a plane smoothly and safely. None of that was of concern to the hijacker pilots.

An expert has been quoted as saying, in reference to the maneuvers that Hanjour made on his approach to the Pentagon, "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." Alright, it may have been unsafe to fly the 757 that way, but how does the question of safety enter into it when the goal of the pilot is to crash the plane? The thing is, the plane survived the maneuvers, even if they were not listed as approved by Boeing or the FAA.

Maybe the pilots were lucky? Maybe Allah was with them that day? Or at least they believed he was and that belief gave the hijackers what they needed to carry out three of the four plans.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the matter.


And contrary to dis-information put forth by some videos and blogs, the hijackers were listed on the flight manifests. Commercial planes just don't take off if the head count does not match the manifest total. That goes for PRE-9/11 as well as post 9/11.

[Sassy]

Please check out this site  http://patriotsquestion911.com/  with an open mind - you will recognize many of the people who have come out for 911 truth - they are generals, former CIA, doctors, pilots, engineers, architects... credible people questioning the "official" story.  They are not suspending their reasoning abilities by asking real questions that require true answers - they are in fact, refusing to hide their heads in the sand & are willing to ask the hard questions that have yet to be answered & are willing to be called "conspiracy theorists" rather than accept explanations that really stretch the limits of imagination. 

170+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
   660+ Engineers and Architects
   170+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
   350+ Professors Question 9/11
   230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
   200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

You can compare it to the faux "global warming" crowd - 10's of thousands of scientists have come out against the official theory, yet those who dispute the global warming theory are blackballed & don't get all the gov't freebies.  Oh, BTW, it's not "global warming" anymore, it's "climate change."

[pagan]

All valid points, Don, to be sure.

I was not at the Pentagon, nor was I in the field in PA, so I have no direct experience to relate. I remember seeing interviews with air traffic controllers at Reagan International saying what they saw on the radar screens was either a small jet or missile.

Questions; Why within one hour of the Pentagon being struck did the FBI go to area businesses and confiscate their security tapes that contained footage of the attack? Why weren't these tapes released if they would have corroborated the government's story? Why were employees of these businesses forced into silence with threats of government prosecution and jail time? I also saw interviews with people in PA. who said they saw what looked like a missile and also heard an explosion before the plane crashed. Like I said, I wasn't there and I don't know how credible any of the witnesses are, whether corroborating or contradicting the governments assertions.

Nobody will know what the hijackers were thinking as they flew into their glorious martyrdoms. Maybe it was "Damn, that stripper last night was hot!"

Kamikaze aircraft were little more than flying bombs so the controls were simple and designed to be understood easily by someone with minimal training, sort of like "cooking" at MacDonald's, unlike modern commercial aircraft which have extremely complex instrument panels. A former neighbor of mine was a Navy pilot and retired commercial pilot. He says controls for shutting off the autopilot and transponder are difficult to find and require multiple steps, unlike what Hollywood shows, so that these devices aren't accidently shut down.

Although a large commercial plane may respond more easily due to its design and size making it seem easier to control, flying a Cessna does not make one a commercial pilot, or a Kamikaze pilot for that matter. Commercial aircraft are far more complex than a Cessna.

I know they were listed on the manifests using their own names, and they even entered America using their real names. I worked with a banker who sat next to Atta on the flight from Portland, Maine to Boston, Mass. The banker got on the plane bound for New York City and was seriously freaked out when he found out who Atta was and they showed his picture. He said nothing in Atta's behavior would lead anybody to believe he was going to do what he did, so perhaps you're correct about the stress issue.

There are simply too many inconsistencies in the government report and that's where my difficulty in fully believing it stems from. I don't know everything that happened that day, and I know I never will. The problem is many people like me who doubt the government story get lumped together with the "Particle beams shot from invisible flying craft reverse engineered from captured alien spacecraft were used to bring down the WTC" crowd.

There is so much misinformation coming from both sides that it's going to rate right up there with the Kennedy Assassination and the Moon Landing for the conspiracy crowd.

[MountainDon]

Although a large commercial plane may respond more easily due to its design and size making it seem easier to control, flying a Cessna does not make one a commercial pilot, or a Kamikaze pilot for that matter. Commercial aircraft are far more complex than a Cessna.

My point there is that once the aircraft is in the air, and not being constrained by concerns for safety and the by-the-book- method of operating a large aircraft, I believe it is not too difficult a feat to point the aircraft at a target.

Just my opinion/belief.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544113.stm

[ScottA]

Regardless of who flew the planes they did hit. The problem is why there was no response by air defence forces. Someone stood down the military and no one has ever been put on trial for that criminal failure. So far as I know no one was even blamed. This smells.

Problem #2 is WTC 7 which was never hit by a plane but collapsed anyway.

Probem #3 is why did Bush stonewall on an investigation and try to prevent it? Why was all the eveidence destroyed?

Also it was too damned convenient for BushCo Inc. They wanted badly to attack Iraq even before this happened then rushed to war the second it they had the chance.

[Sassy]

My dad flew at least 30 different types of planes from tail draggers to B52's, fighter jets, C130's.  He once had to land a B52 with all the engines shut off on one wing due to fires.  He had to take the plane off autopilot.  He said that the plane, with autopilot was a breeze to fly (that is if you knew what the instrumentation was & understood how to use it - much, much different than a Cessna - takes lots of training to learn - Cessnas & big jets are not interchangeable   )  He said landing that B52 without autopilot was the hardest landing he had ever had to do - just guiding it into pattern without autopilot was next to impossible & he was an instructor pilot - in fact, he was the 1st pilot to ever land a B52 with all the engines out on one side.

So, you just can't compare apples with oranges just because you don't have to actually "land" a plane - just knowing how to disable controls & being able to perform the difficult maneuvers the pilot had to perform to fly the plane at super fast speed, only a few feet off the ground & aiming it to hit the side as it did - that was quite an unbelieveable feat...  but whatever  

[pagan]

I don't know, Don, when I was in the Army my buddy asked if he could sit in the co-pilots seat. The pilot said sure, it was a long flight from Italy to Germany and we were doing an in-flight rigging so we had time to kill. My buddy was sitting in the seat and the pilot asked if he wanted to fly, my buddy said sure and the pilot shut of the autopilot. Instantly we began a gentle descent and when my buddy noticed this he pulled back and then began stalling the plane, this was a C-141. The pilot quickly flipped the autopilot back on and smiled saying, "It ain't as easy as it looks, huh?"

My point is, the slightest movement of the yoke will cause a change in the attitude of the plane. A lot of training and practice is necessary to learn how to actually fly.

[MountainDon]

Never mind.

I know that arguing my point of view on 9/11 is an exercise in futility in many cases. I should know better than to beat a dead horse. 

I'll stick to cabin building discussions and the right to bear arms, cooking and the weather.

[rwanders]

  I'm with you Don-----discussions with conspiracy nuts is like trying to pick up warm jello with chopsticks while simultaneously wrestling with a pig.

[Sassy]

I guess Senator Bob Kerrey, member of the 911 Commission is one of your nutty conspiracy theorists...  or

General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding General of U.S. European Command, which included all American military activities in the 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.  Additionally, Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), which granted him overall command of NATO military forces in Europe 1997 - 2001.  Awarded Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart for his service in Viet Nam and numerous subsequent medals and citations.  Graduated valedictorian of his class at West Point.

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), is a strong critic of the official account of 9/11.  In a 2006 video documentary he said, "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army's Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job.  I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon.  And I said, 'The plane does not fit in that hole'.  So what did hit the Pentagon?  What hit it?  Where is it?  What's going on?"

Terrell (Terry) E. Arnold, MA – Former Deputy Director, Office of Counter-Terrorism and Emergency Planning, U.S. State Department. Former Chairman, Department of International Studies, National War College. Graduate of the National War College. Retired Senior Foreign Service Officer of the U.S. Department of State. He has served as a security and crisis management consultant for several Fortune 500 companies. He also served as a crisis management consultant for several Federal agencies, including The State Department, the Department of Defense, the U.S. Customs Service and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. U.S. Navy veteran of World War II and Korean conflict...

Angelo M. Codevilla, PhD – Former U.S. State Department Foreign Service Officer specializing in U.S. intelligence operations in Western Europe. Member of President-Elect Ronald Reagan's Transition Team within the State Department and principal author of the team's report on intelligence. Former Staff Member, U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee dealing with oversight of the intelligence services 1977 - 1985. Former U.S. Naval Officer. Currently Vice Chairman of the U.S. Army War College Board of Visitors.  Professor of International Relations, Boston University 1995 - present. Fellow of the Claremont Institute. Former academic appointments include Professorial Lecturer at Georgetown University; Senior Research Fellow for the Hoover Institution at Stanford University; Assistant Professor, Grove City College; and Assistant Professor, North Dakota State College, Senior Editor of The American Spectator...

Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret)  – Retired fighter pilot.  Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).  20-year Navy career.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100.  23,000+ total hours flown.

    * Statement to this website 8/20/07: "I started questioning the Sept 11, 2001 "story" only days after the event.  It just didn't make any sense to me.  How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767?  Didn't the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767?  The evidence just didn't add up. ...
      At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.
      I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft.  I could not have done what these beginners did.  Something stinks to high heaven!
      Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings?  Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident?  Where is all the luggage?  Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft?  Where are the steel engine parts?  Where is the steel landing gear?  Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?
      I also personally knew American Airlines Captain "Chick" Burlingame, who was the captain of Flight 77 which allegedly hit the Pentagon, and I know he would not have given up his airplane to crazies!
      And at the Shanksville Pennsylvania impact site, where is any of the wreckage?!!!  Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole!  Where is any piece of a crashed airplane?  Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel?  Where is any evidence at all?
      When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official "story". ...
      Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don't believe the official "story" and why I want the truth to be told."

Sgt. Chadwick Brooks and Sgt. William Lagasse – U.S. Pentagon Police Department (Pentagon Force Protection Agency) officers, who were on duty at or near the CITGO gas station on 9/11 and eyewitnesses to the approach of Flight 77 and its alleged impact at the Pentagon.

Edward J. Costello, Jr. – Former Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.  Former Judge pro tem., Los Angeles, CA.

John M. Cole – Former Intelligence Operations Specialist, in the FBI's Counterintelligence Division.  In charge of FBI's foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. 18-year FBI career.   Essay "Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11  8/14/06": "I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. ... An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. ... The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them." http://www.dissidentvoice.org

James D. Smith – Former Able Danger Program Manager for Orion Scientific Systems, a Department of Defense contractor.  Previously at Orion, managed and performed criminal intelligence support activities within the Gulf States Initiative (GSI) Program – a joint federal (U.S. Army and National Guard) and multi-state project (Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia and Mississippi)...

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve  – Commander of Special Troops Battalion, 9th Theater Support Command. Former Chief of the Army's Controlled HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Program, overseeing Army Intelligence and Security Command's global controlled HUMINT efforts. A former member of the Able Danger data mining program that targeted Al Qaeda's global structure.  Awarded the Bronze Star for bravery. Fellow, Center for Advanced Defense Studies.  23-year military intelligence career.

Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army – Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer * Statement to this website 9/19/06: "I knew from September 18, 2001, that the official story about 9/11 was false. ...

Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  – Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Just a few members - all crazy?  I think not!  Go to the link if you dare, to see the 100's of others.  http://patriotsquestion911.com

[glenn kangiser]

Obviously these people controlling the puppets who are visible figureheads in our so called government are smarter than you give them credit for.  They managed to fool you.

Funny but the supposed hijackers names were not on the passenger lists.

Yes -something happened - likely Hollywood Special effects scripted for the event.  Yes - a good movie is great isn't it - you'd almost think it was real.

Let me get this straight - Saudi Arabian hijackers  - likely friends of the Bush family who managed security at the airlines involved and the WTC, so we attack Afghanistan - clearing the way for a new government so the oil pipeline Unocal wanted can go in, and then we attack Iraq, who Bush himself said had nothing to do with 9/11.  Why not attack Saudi Arabia where the Supposed Hijackers came from. 

On the sidelines the dancing Israeli's are filming the event - later admitting they are Mossad agents.  How did they know where to set up their cameras.

The air traffic controllers made an audio recording but their boss tore it up.

It is estimated that there only had to be a maximum of 200 people in on the event.  Not even Bush was totally informed on what was going on as his secret codes for his plane were released to keep him running scared.  He was allowed to come back as puppet in chief after the dirty work was completed though -- see his scaredy eyes as he is told of the second plane while reading the goat story to the school children.  From then on, the only thing left for him to do was run as Dirty Dick directed things from his undisclosed location.

[rwanders]

and the entire christian establishment, including dozens of popes , bishops, kings, and countless scholars believed the sun revolved around the earth for centuries and happily persecuted and burned those who actually understood the scientific basis of reality.  We no longer burn "true believers"----we just endure the silliness perpetuated by those who ask "questions" but will not or cannot recognize the correct answers. I still hear, ad nauseum, "truthers" claiming that the fire was not hot enough to make the steel in the towers to "melt"-------I was trained in metallurgy and was a certified welding, and structural inspector------the steel frame does not have to melt----it only needs to be heated to the point where the tensile strength is reduced so that it will no longer support the building weight------to try and protect steel frames from fire, the steel is insulated-----it does not fireproof it but only slows the heat rise somewhat until the fire fighters can respond-----that response did not succeed on 9/11. The other "questions" have been answered----there are still, and always will be, those who will refuse to recognize the answers perhaps because they enjoy the argument too much.

If you want to believe the conspiracy sellers----in little green men, a flat earth, the universe revolving around the earth or other such stuff----have fun but don't expect rational folks to take your beliefs seriously------We know you are really good folks-----just a little strange on those subjects

[glenn kangiser]

Just heating - weakening the members would not have made it fall straight down and break into easily handled pieces- it would most likely have toppled over sideways.

Funny it fell around a largely undamaged core but this one did not and the fire was bottom to top.

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=238844

...only in America....

[bobtheengineer]

I think some people have a screw loose somewhere.  No offense.  The WTC's fell the way they did, because they lost the structural support in the area that the plane's fuel was burning.  The weight of the stories above, caused the steel columns to collapse the way they did.  Once the collapse started, it was like dominoes.  Everything just collapsed straight down (gravity will do that). 

The chinese structure referenced wasn't complete.  It was only a steel framework.  It didn't have all the additional weight of floors, wall covereings etc.. It wasn't loaded anywhere near its design strength.  If the fire isn't hot enough, the steel won't even collapse.

The people who came up with the WTC attacks, did their homework.  They took a plan full of fuel, and crashed into the middle of the buildings, where they were most vulnerable.

[pagan]

Thanks for proving my point, Don. As I said, people who merely question the validity of the government's position are lumped with every conspiracy nut, and thus the discussion degenerates.

[MountainDon]

pagancelt, I don't necessarily mean to throw you into the pool of "conspiracy nuts", to use your words.  I do not care to contribute to this topic or others of a similar vein. The discussion invariably quickly becomes polarized and pointless, IMO.

Carry on all.