Hello everyone,
I am about to begin a major overhaul of my family's ways of living. I am almost certain that I'll be purchasing the house plans for the 14x 24 cabin. I would like to introduce myself, my plans, and my reasoning to you all; so that you can constructively criticize my ideas and maybe help me realize anything I have overlooked. Thank you all in advance.
About me: I am a 23 year old guy from Northern Michigan. I have a great wife, a beautiful 8 month old daughter, and a tiny dog. We eventually plan on having one more kid and then get fixed :-[ . I have some limited experience building, but have several friends from all building trades to help me. My wife is a nurse and I'm an orderly so we on a bit of a tight budget to start. we currently live in a 1000sqft ranch in the city. We find it more room than we need and living with neighbors so close on each side kind of drives me insane. My wife is all for the plan and only requests that it is "cozy" and not like my Dad's current deer camp(rustic).
My Plan: Purchase a few wooded acres(2-5) and put up the 14x24 home with roof extending over the front porch(along the 24' side of the building). Build the loft over the entire floor plan if possible and convert into two bedrooms. It would use a concrete pier foundation and metal roofing. We'd sleep in one upstairs bedroom and the girl would have the other. The house would use a pellet/corn stove, compost toilet(no septic, just a grey water system), compact kitchen, hand clothes washer, 10 gallon water heater; all to save on energry and space. This would be the start of our overall plan. eventually we want a green house to grow our own food and maybe a own few animals. this would help us be more self sufficient(I realize its impossible to be totally self sufficient). this would get us out of the city and would help us get to our ultimate debt free lifestyle. After a year or two the house would be added on to with maybe a bedroom, or maybe not(depends how comfortable we are).
My Reasoning: Not only would we be financially better off, allowing us to focus on collecting experiences(travel)and maybe work a little less, we could in short time be pretty much debt free. I know this home will only cost a fraction of my current home because I'm cutting out the inflated contractor and realtor fees. Also my intention is not removing us completely from the community, just teaching us to do a little more for ourselves and allowing us to grow into a closer family. I'm willing to do a little more work instead of having a machine do everything automatically for me. I believe this would be easier to start while my daughter is really young because if I wait until shes older she may go into shock. My parents think I'm plum crazy and that I should actually be looking for a bigger house. If anyone knows michigan you'd know that economic hardships seems to hit us pretty bad and I'd rather give up what I dont need or waste and stay in my home state comfortably. I am just waiting on the right peice of land to show up. I read somewhere: "whose richer, the man with a big house or the man with the big heart?"
so there it is....Thank you.
Wildbil
w* wildbil. Sounds like a good plan. Andrew (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.
I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments. :)
Go for it Wildbil [cool]
Hey there, we're in the same situation with the same general mindset.
I'm twenty, and I plan on building an underground home (check link in signature) for basically some of the same reasons. Financial stability, debt free living, and surplus of savings.
Good luck and keep us updated.
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 18, 2008, 01:43:47 AM
w* wildbil. Sounds like a good plan. Andrew (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.
I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments. :)
You could put a link to pics. so he could see what you call "rustic" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh and also, What did you use on the cob circular seating area (by the cat) to make it look shiny & smooth?
wildbil as others w*. Sounds like a good plan I hope it materializes for you. I am sure it will be a learning experience for you and your family. Good Luck and keep everyone posted on your progress.
Good to see more folks seeing the light. I wish you luck.
You came to the right place - I found in this forum a treasure trove of the practical aspects of self-reliance.
Good for you. I wish we would have started this path sooner - you've got a 20 year head start on me. Like you said - it's to late now, gotta wait until the two teenage daughters are out of high school to downsize, or they will go into cardiac arrest! lol!
Quote from: cordwood on November 18, 2008, 03:17:33 AM
Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 18, 2008, 01:43:47 AM
w* wildbil. Sounds like a good plan. Andrew (Ernest T Bass) and family are in U.P. ( why doesn't anybody ever come from Dowagiag? Now Dowagiac I think) hmm and doing well on being pretty self sufficient.
I am rustic but others here are modern --stand by for comments. :)
You could put a link to pics. so he could see what you call "rustic" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh and also, What did you use on the cob circular seating area (by the cat) to make it look shiny & smooth?
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0
I have been lazy lately --- working and rushing through the forum. d*
The smooth shiny areas are slicked off with a smooth grout float when wet mud and allowed to dry. They are then coated with Quikcrete "Concrete Cure and Seal" or other acrylic floor sealer. That makes a light earth color. The dark floor is water proofed with 4 coats of boiled linseed oil then coated with the sealer.
hi bil,
dan here from lower mi., jackson area. your initial ideas are fine and you will alter them as you think about priorities. i'd forego the corn/pellet stove for a wood burner. plenty of trees in the u.p. i'd shoot for five acres if you can. land is somewhat of a bargain in your general area. you might want to order the cd's/dvd's from mother earth news to look at w/wife. many good ideas from their library and costs around $60 i think. we're in winter now and it will give you plenty of time to read.
Hello everyone,
Thank you for such an active greeting and support!
Quote from: apaknad on November 18, 2008, 11:04:07 AM
i'd forego the corn/pellet stove for a wood burner. plenty of trees in the u.p.
I should be more specific: I'm actually from the Alpena area in northeastern lower michigan, but we consider anything below Standish "southern" and everything above "northern."
As for the pellet stove:1. pellets are easier to store than wood and seem to be in decent stock around the area even now while its cold. 2. pellet stoves are less of a fire danger, and I'd sleep better in the loft knowing theres nothing brewing under me. 3. wood stoves can burn small children just learning to walk badly, from what I have read pellet/corn stoves are only warm to the touch. please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.
I appreciate the thought though Dan ;), and I would love 5 acres but I dont think a lot of people in the area are going to be selling until after hunting season. I am going to check out the mother earth news now.
thank you all,
Wildbil
In this case, thinking small is really thinking big.
We bought our first house at 24, a weird but charming CHEAP z-shaped (I kid you not) but not very sound building. We were going to remodel after several years, but when we opened it up, there were so many problems we started over. (We only owed a mortgage for about five years). Intend to keep it up thirty five years later with our Victoria's cottage from countryplans.
Everyone thought we were just about wealthy with all the fabulous (camping) trips and nice secondhand cars bought for cash for a song with the money we saved. But we cut costs in every other way --- coupons, barter, flea markets, buying used, fixing everything ourselves, etc. Our first trip out west in the 1970's (from Florida) cost $300 for an entire month, and the VW van we did it in cost $300 too but looked fine with homesewn indian basket curtains and homemade camper interior.
Welcome to the anti-McMansion club! It's not exclusive, just requiring common sense.
w* wildbil,
G/L on finding the land you want. It's a cool feeling once you've found it and have it in your name. While looking check up on the local ordinances, what you can do and what you can not. You mentioned composting toilet and a graywater system. Water from a kitchen sink is looked at as being black, not gray in many places.
I personally would not want a corn or pellet fed stove if I had my own wood or access to forest service wood. My reason for that is the corn/pellet route ties you to a supply system, much like the gas company or the propane truck. The one advantage I see to corn/pellet is that the hopper allows you to be away for a period of time and have the heat continue, as long as there is power.
We placed a heavy screened fence around our wood stove (hardware cloth over an aluminum frame. Never burned anyone. We never set the place on fire either. If you follow all the recommended clearances, etc, you should not have an unwanted fire outside the stove.
As far a pellets being plentiful or priced reasonably... remember when gas was $4 a gallon or back in the 70's when there were line ups? Well, probably not the lines; but I do. Last winter around here there was a pellet shortage for a period. :-\
If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood. I'd go that way if possible.
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on November 18, 2008, 12:13:47 PM
If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood. I'd go that way if possible.
That would be interesting. ??? The technologies are so different I wonder how that would work. Options are always nice.
If you have a wood stove what happens when you leave for a while? Im worried about the few water lines that will be in the house. some times I go to work and noone is at the house for 15 or 16 hours at a time. does anyone have good backup system? I know code requires that wood isnt the primary heat source around here.
one good thing is that the house will be small enough that I will only need a small stove and that means less wood/pellets/corn, whatever we decide. we have a wood stove at our camp and it overheats us and then cools quickly, but im sure no matter what heat I use insulation will ultimately be the most important factor.
about the blackwater sink...isnt that water leached anyways in a septic system? the system I was thinking of was a simple drain going away from the house and into a leach pit. the system wont have to contend with poo so itll be mostly water and a few chemicals im sure.
as for the compost toilet. does anyone uses the Humanure method? I am willing to try it but I dont want to push my wife cause shes right along with me on everything else. right now were planning on one of the all in one systems like sun mar but i havent decided what brand to go with just yet.
also about the pier structure; I trust that the building will be stable as long as the clay content is low, but what about weather? it block crawl anymore safe? does anyone have reasons I shouldnt go with a pier foundation?
Thankyou,
Wildbil
Quote from: MountainDon on November 18, 2008, 12:23:47 PM
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on November 18, 2008, 12:13:47 PM
If memory serves, some stoves are multi-fuel, and will burn pellets and also wood. I'd go that way if possible.
That would be interesting. ??? The technologies are so different I wonder how that would work. Options are always nice.
A link to the stoves I was talking about
http://www.stoveworksusa.com/
Thanks for the stove link CREATIVE1. They must has that niche market all to themselves.
Quote from: wildbil on November 18, 2008, 12:37:46 PM
also about the pier structure; I trust that the building will be stable as long as the clay content is low, but what about weather? it block crawl anymore safe? does anyone have reasons I shouldnt go with a pier foundation?
We weren't allowed to build a pier foundation in Washington. Don't know if it has to do with earthquakes or what. Anyone have a bag of money they don't need? That one change alone is $$$$.
Most jurisdictions want your septic system to be the same whether you use standard or composting toilets. You'll obviously save money on pumping out the tank, but no savings otherwise.
I've seen some great deals on composting toilets on Craig's List, if you can get around the "used" part.
Re the graywater / blackwater thing wildbil. Collecting the water from the bathroom and kitchen sinks and shower/bathtub and running it to a leaching system will in all likelyhood work with no problems. But such a system, one that includes the kitchen sink, is not legal in my state of NM, nor many others. This is mainly a bureaucratic shortcoming IMO.
We have a Sun-Mar toilet. It works fine and is more wife friendly than any other home brewed composting system, depending on what model wife one has. This was stumbling block I ran into as well. Even an old fashioned outhouse works well when the neighborhood just consists of your family. But those are also illegal in some places. My point regarding the kitchen sink was to make you aware of a potential problem, depending on where your finally locate the land you want. Before signing on the dotted line check on all the hoops you might have to jump though, if you choose to do so. Not jumping through all the hoops is sometimes done sucessfully as well. ;) That's a personal choice.
As for a pier foundation, as Creative pointed out sometimes that is simply another jurisdictional hoop to jump through. In an earthquake prone area they might not be a good choice. Although as PEG has commented once or more, all the extra rules, straps, etc that are required in WA state may just allow the buildings to fall down a little less, but they remain structural unsafe. ???
I have no problem with a pier foundation. We built one. We were blessed with well drained soil and being at the top of a ridge. With the footings below the frost line it should be fine.
Clay is another matter and I have no experience with it myself. It can be done though.
.. another detail to be checked on before purchase?
Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy. After our latest saga (Victoria Cottage at Lake Cushman) we might've gone a different way if we'd known.
With so many foreclosures, you might be able to find property with a house for about what land costs. And if in a rural area (lots of places qualify) a USDA loan provides 102% financing and allows the seller to contribute 6 percent of the purchase price towards closing costs.
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on November 18, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy.
One might have luck with that, but the way the rules are written, more often than not, there's a Catch-22 in there. With a remodel or change above or past a certain preordained point, or to some systems, "they" require permits anyhow. Unless you work in the shadows.
Pardon me, my pessimistic side is showing this morning. d*
Quote from: MountainDon on November 18, 2008, 01:48:52 PM
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on November 18, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
Another thought is to buy something shabby but not falling down to get around some of the bureaucracy.
One might have luck with that, but the way the rules are written, more often than not, there's a Catch-22 in there. With a remodel or change above or past a certain preordained point, or to some systems, "they" require permits anyhow. Unless you work in the shadows.
Pardon me, my pessimistic side is showing this morning. d*
But, unlike building a new house, there is alot you can do "in the shadows" (I like that),
especially if you don't add on. One example is the landlord/architect my son is working for. In the middle of the city, they're carefully fixing falling down houses from the inside out, so nothing really shows. They're on the sixth or seventh house now. We're talking about places that could've blown down in a good stiff wind. Old houses from 1910-1925, foundations iffy, walls nowhere near plumb,outdated plumbing and electric, etc. A five year project so far, zero interference. We've done the same thing ourselves on a smaller scale.
BUT, I agree that there are no guarantees. One of my neighbors tried to build a whole house without permits (!!!!), got caught, and had to tear if down.
Thank you all for these good ideas I must be sure about before undertaking my project.
I may have to find a way to work in the shadows because a septic tank not only rips up a huge space around your home, it costs big bucks. If i did find a shack on some land I might scoop it up, build my new setup and use the old shack for some fire wood. not a bad idea. I am wondering if I could act as its my "vacation" home and have something like a simple tank that needs pumping, then after it passes do things my way.
As for the stove! creative1, I think that is a great idea, multi use so I can choose the fuel as the prices flux
My personal opinion is if I buy land I should be able to build a pyramid on it as long as its not hurting or bothering the neighbors. and if it falls and kills me then its my own fault. I really dont like the idea of papa build inspector deciding how ill be living. might as well have the same exact home for everyone.
In total agreement. I've been looking into invisibility formulas, but am not there yet. :)
hi again WB,
don't know about pellet stoves but if the shipments stopped to your local store what would you burn? guard rails/fences can be put around wood stove til child understands. wood will always be available in MI. do you fish? i used to fish at fletcher's floodwater. nice area Alpena. did they shut down dow chemical there?
good place to buy land w/people unloading everything they can in this economy.
Quote from: wildbil on November 18, 2008, 03:55:01 PM
My personal opinion is if I buy land I should be able to build a pyramid on it as long as its not hurting or bothering the neighbors. and if it falls and kills me then its my own fault.
I do agree with that in many ways, even though some of the things I say may make some wonder at times. I feel that way all the more so in cases of land that is more rural, land that consists of larger acreage than that found in a built up area. Some areas are like that. Others treat the entire county with the same set of rules no matter if you are in the city or on a mountain ridge surrounded by trees that no one can see through. Our suburban home location is another matter in some respects. The conveniences to conveniences like stores, medical facilities, schools, entertainment and the like do bring some responsibilities with having to conform. That works two ways; we can't have pigs in the backyard, but neither can the neighbors.
In our case there is no land near enough where we work and maintain our principle residence that does not come with all sorts of rules. All the surrounding counties have restrictive building codes; incorporated areas have even more. That includes the mountainous portions where we do own land. Our mountain land is off the beaten track. There is no drive by traffic. No one can see us from any public area. I do wonder what the satellites will see, but so far none have updated out lat&long coordinates. We have found peace there and deal with the authorities in our own manner.
Quote from: wildbil on November 18, 2008, 03:55:01 PM
I am wondering if I could act as its my "vacation" home and have something like a simple tank that needs pumping, then after it passes do things my way.
:-\ A pump out tank, a cesspool by it's old name, is usually not allowed by local ordinances. Again this has to be checked out before purchase. I know, it seems to get ridiculous. Example; my county would allow building on your own land without getting a well. But they require a septic system or in more rural areas an outhouse. In our case the septic requirement strikes me as being ludicrous as I would never be hauling enough water to ever get it full. IIRC the minimum installed size for us would be 900 gallons. :o In two years of hauling water I might be getting close to that volume, ??? but we've drank a lot of it and used a bunch for personal hygiene. Personal hygiene falls into the gray water category as a rule. There would still be precious little water in the septic tank if there was one.
The more visible your place is the more the need to tow the bureaucratic line, IMO.
Well my wife and I are building a new small house only 100' from the house we thought we were going to live in for quite some time,.........No permits= No Good House d*,....We thought we were buying a cheap house on 10 acres, We ended up with 10 acres and a temporary structure at fair market value!
What was said to be a leaky roof turned out to be some fancy drywall work to hide the fact they took out a load bearing wall and the whole structure is unsound [scared], Some support beams and a few experimental remodel ideas and it is safe for awhile but definetly NOT what we were sold in the begining.
So now when someone complains about getting permits I can see the other side and it ain't pretty :-X
I wont go into what they meant "could use a new septic system" ::) I don't call a pipe that terminated under sheet metel covered trench an "Old Septic System" n*
I hate hearing about things like that, cordwood. Really sad when you are on the receiving end.
It's stuff like that that probably was one of the forces behind building codes, etc. being implemented. Unfortunately, having followed the progression of rules and regs here in NM for 25 years, I also believe that some of the rules have been introduced to preserve the bureaucrat jobs. Some maybe have been introduced under pressure, gifts, contributions to election funds, etc. by various providers of materials and services. I'm not talking just zoning and construction. The greedy fingers of government plus industry lobbyists cost us all untold dollars every time we turn around.
The governing body that overseas the regulations pertaining to our preschool try my patience and civility yearly. They seem to be constantly tweaking the rules, making "improvements". But I digress.
Quote from: cordwood on November 18, 2008, 07:11:19 PM
Well my wife and I are building a new small house only 100' from the house we thought we were going to live in for quite some time,.........No permits= No Good House d*,....We thought we were buying a cheap house on 10 acres, We ended up with 10 acres and a temporary structure at fair market value!
What was said to be a leaky roof turned out to be some fancy drywall work to hide the fact they took out a load bearing wall and the whole structure is unsound [scared], Some support beams and a few experimental remodel ideas and it is safe for awhile but definetly NOT what we were sold in the begining.
So now when someone complains about getting permits I can see the other side and it ain't pretty :-X
I wont go into what they meant "could use a new septic system" ::) I don't call a pipe that terminated under sheet metel covered trench an "Old Septic System" n*
I understand that most of the regulations are there to protect future buyers and the environment. And I would have no complaints having an open discussion and finding safe ways to do everything that me and the building inspector can agree on. however i cannot see a building inspector ever seeing things my way being that most have a know-whats-best complex and me being an ordinary person. I will go with having proper structural and electrical inspections for safety. And whatever work I do on my own accord will be well researched and well thought through to maintain safety for both me and my planet. I also plan to live out the rest of my life there, so I dont care about resale value.
I'm sorry about your experiences, of course those bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.
This ain't my first stupid move d* d* we lost a deposit on a house in the desert after we found out the house had no permits and San Bernardino County was adamant that it be torn down, We backed out of the deal but couldn't get the deposit back because he never told us it "DID" have permits ???
The new house we build will not be required to be permitted but at least I know when I do it it will be safe.
Personally I don't really care if it's permitted or not cause I've seen inspectors that were dumb as a post or corrupt as the senate, What pi$$es me off is when someone knows there is a problem and lies about it and hides it! >:(
Now California can kiss my *$$ on main street!! $800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began [shocked] And the worst part was the next door neighbor turned me in >:( I would have thought he would be happy we were fixing the place up and cleaning up an eyesore,....WRONG! He said it would make his house worth more and raise his taxes d* d* d* d* d* d* So wildbil; Look real good at your potential neighbors,.......If you can see'em don't buy the place n* heh heh heh heh heh
good point cordwood. Ill be sure theres an acre of trees around me in each direction at least. I really cant stand that in the city, the value of a home across the street affects your home. I grew up in the country without neighbors, then made the stupid mistake of buying my first home in town.
Funny thing though today my parents came to visit us and they started talking about my ideas. It actually spurred a mocking and laughter session among them and my older siblings. I am more determined than ever now.
You may be very correct in thinking that most, if not all, building inspectors would ever see eye to eye with any number of innovative but safe building practices. And then again maybe they would. One of the big things inspectors don't like are changes to the plan after the plan has been approved, especially changes that may affect the structural strength, or some thing silly even.
Quote from: wildbil on November 18, 2008, 09:15:15 PM
I will go with having proper structural and electrical inspections for safety.
I don't mean to be a naysayer... but if you are in a code compliance area and if you are starting a build from scratch home, in my locale at least, you either go with the whole ball of wax or you don't. There's no middle ground where you can ask them to inspect the electrical, "but don't worry about the plumbing". If the building is not there at present and you want to build one. As Creative pointed out you may very well be able to get away with remodeling, even extensive remodeling as long as the exterior size doesn't change. That if someone is looking.
I am just trying to get you to see what you might right into. And you might not run into any of these walls. I hope you understand that as I seem to be raising negatives, more than praising your initiative and desire to have your own place your way. There are National codes for this, that and the other thing. But local municipalities or counties have the final say as to what gets built and how on their turf. Depending on where you are these rules may be relatively few and innocuous, or they may be a deal breaker if you envision an outside the box dwelling.
G/L and I'm interested in seeing your ideas come to fruition. :)
Quote from: cordwood on November 18, 2008, 09:22:18 PM
$800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began
That sucks cordwood. Ouch! No permit required here for that, it's a simple repair. When you get inside the walls replumbing the entire house like we did there was a permit. I think it was $45 on a $4500 job.
Quote from: MountainDon on November 18, 2008, 09:51:33 PM
Quote from: cordwood on November 18, 2008, 09:22:18 PM
$800 for a permit to reshingle an 800 sqft dink house in the desert plus a $200 fine for not getting a permit before work began
That sucks cordwood. Ouch! No permit required here for that, it's a simple repair. When you get inside the walls replumbing the entire house like we did there was a permit. I think it was $45 on a $4500 job.
I didn't think it should require a permit either,....I think that's when the price went up ::) His exact words were "It matters not what YOU THINK, It only matters what I THINK!" Then he wanted to use my ladder to go up and look at the roof [shocked] ......I told him to go straight to #$!! and bring back his own d@mn ladder n* n* I think the more I talked the less chance there was of him just letting me slide this one time. Oh Well ::) I know how to play the game I guess I just didn't feel like doing it that time ;)
If you were willing to dig that hole deeper than it already was you should have offered to rent him the ladder for 25 cents to go UP. Then removed it and told him it would it was $25 to come down.
I'd never do that myself, but I don't mind sharing the scary thoughts I can conjure up at times.
California building sucks. Sounds like a good plan there wild one, my wife and I (late twenties, 4 kids) have been working on the same plan for about 10 years now, getting closer all the time. Kids will learn not to go near that hot stove after the first few burns. You're supposed to have more than one to count for natural selection anyway ;)
Right Jens -- you don't want to get too attached to them. You may have to take one of them out some day. ::)
I guess the only real way to be sure about the codes is to get the local structural, electrical, and plumbing code myself. Also I could make up the plan exactly as I want it and take it to the inspector and just try to reason.
If you had an unpermitted home what do you do about your address? kids school district? insurance? you see there are too many things tied into your house to live totally unpermitted unless we completely shun society(which isnt my plan). So maybe ill read up on the current codes, see if I can find any loopholes in there to use and make sure I can have an answer for any argument the inspector has against my plans.
MountainDon...I enjoy your thoughts, thats why I asked for constructive criticism.
The big thing is the septic system for me, Its the largest expense that Im getting rid of and I wont need it with the composter.
thank you all.
Quote from: wildbil on November 19, 2008, 04:56:43 AM
I guess the only real way to be sure about the codes is to get the local structural, electrical, and plumbing code myself.
Check with the building/zoning/development dept that covers the area you're interested in and ask what codes they use. UBC, IRC...
Visit the public library. They usually have those books in the reference only section.
The IRC2003 is available online. There's a link to it from
HERE (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2590.0). It is Seattle specific but the entire code is there.
Other than not wanting to install a septic tank what innovative or off-beast ideas are you considering, wildbil?
You should google up the county (or responsible government entity) where you are thinking about living and just start asking them questions. Everytime I've done that people have been very helpful. I don't give them my full name so if I decide to bend a rule here and there, no big deal. One guy even laughed at me when I asked if there was a fee to apply for an address "Nope, no fee, we're the last free stop".
Some things to consider
Septic requirements
Well depths in area (in my state you can look this up online)
soil drainage, soil makeup and depth of bedrock
which inspections are required? If required, what version of code
do local townships have requirements over and above the county
flood plain?
easements
leans
right of ways (ingress, egress)
(good idea to do or hire a title search)
has the land been surveyed off yet?
walk the property line
since you have kids, where is the closest bus pickup
On the wood stove v pellets, I'd also go with a woodstove. you can increase the saftey by regularly cleaning your flue and by having it vent up instead of out a sidewall. This way it burns hotter (less creosote).
FYI, here is Gene Lodgeson on burning wood. (He is one of my favorite writers) http://organictobe.org/index.php/2008/11/18/stoking-up-the-woodstove-winters-first-ritual/
Glad to hear someone younger than me has figured it out. I wish you the best of luck with everything!
Quote from: MountainDon on November 19, 2008, 12:20:09 PM
Other than not wanting to install a septic tank what innovative or off-beast ideas are you considering, wildbil?
the compost toilet, pier foundation, wood or pellet stove as primary heat, rain catchment system, minimal electrical use so that when we can afford a decent solar system, it wont be a big deal(eventually completely offgrid or at least sending power back to the power company), year around green house built off the side of the house, and a home free of easy mind numbing entertainment.
To most people reading these forums, these ideas arent new or breaking edge. But if you told this to the average consumer champion, debt loving, media worshiping citizen of this country you'd having them scratching their heads...what no constant sports scores and political scandals? I cant flush and forget? I'm responsible for keeping myself warm?
Now I dont begrudge people living the normal lifestyle of today. I do think that people should be aware that they are totally dependant on a system to survive. Systems can collapse or even worse be taken over by a few select individuals. If someone controls how much food you get, your going to have to jump when they tell you.
If you look back to only my grandparents youll see happy backwoods country folk who could have passed for amish. somehow they lived full lives and built nice buildings that are still solid today and stayed healthy(grandma died at 98). now two generations later, we cant even seem to wash our clothes or bath if the power goes out
and thankyou don for the link to the link
Thanks and you are welcome. :)
Regarding your list, some are relatively easy and can be achieved just about anywhere by anyone. Minimum electrical use and mind numbing entertainment fall into that category. The others will sometimes be problems depending on the area you select to build and live in. The below comments are not meant to endorse or reject building codes or personal ideas; rather it is simply pointing out some of what you might run into, according to what I've seen or researched.
Pier foundation: No problems in some areas, discouraged or even prohibited in others.
Compost toilet: not so much a problem with them per se, although there are areas that might not allow them, especially if you have one that has a liquid overflow. It's more of a septic/blackwater/graywater thing as previously discussed.
Wood stove as primary heat source: There is nothing to stop anyone from using a wood or pellet stove their primary source of heat. However, many areas will not officially count a wood stove as being the primary heat source. Electric, natural gas, propane or even fuel oil are what most codes call for as necessary if they address the question of heating. Add to that your insurance. Not having a typical heating source may mean they won't issue a policy at all. Some may issue a policy, but not cover any frost or freezing related problems. Sometimes one just has to shop around. You can do that with insurance companies eaier than building departments.
rain catchment: This one ought to be a no brainer, right? Rain or snow that falls on my roof is mine to collect and use, right? Depends where you are located. I'm only familiar with the state of affairs surrounding rainwater in Colorado. There, because of complicated western water rights, rainfall is linked to those water rights and what's known as the prior appropriation doctrine. Prior appropriations of stream and river water can be interpreted as, rainwater prevented from running freely downstream may not be available to its rightful owner. The rightful owner may be one or more states downstream. All water in Colorado has been apportioned since the late 1800's.
sending power back to the power company: Some power companies are fair and generous and allow, even promote, self generation and buy excess power back from the home owner with PV panels. That's a great deal, you buy from them in time of need (night) and then sell back during the day. With enough capacity you could be in the situation where you get a monthly check rather than a bill. Others will only give you credit against future bills. You'll never see a peso of their money.
a green house: Something more major than a place to start a few tomato plants is what I envision... I have not explored these, but I know of two complete failures around here. A friend up in the mountains is building what I expect to be a third. Failures because of the trouble maintaining a viable temperature without the heating and cooling costs being prohibitive. It must be possible to build a viable multi season greenhouse; that's just out of my area of interest at present.
Quote from: MountainDon on November 19, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Thanks and you are welcome. :)
a green house: Something more major than a place to start a few tomato plants is what I envision... I have not explored these, but I know of two complete failures around here. A friend up in the mountains is building what I expect to be a third. Failures because of the trouble maintaining a viable temperature without the heating and cooling costs being prohibitive. It must be possible to build a viable multi season greenhouse; that's just out of my area of interest at present.
I saw an interesting article in the Farm Show magazine to where a Greenhouse was heated with a compost pile. The benefit was two fold in this application.
[cool] I'd need a BIG compost pile in my mountains. ;D
here is a serious question...If I were to build completely offgrid and unpermitted on my own private area...what would you do for an address or signing up for school for kids? You most likely wouldnt be insured if your house isn't permitted.
Is there anyone living without permits? I need to know what to expect.
The one suggestion I recieved a few days ago was to build a permitted garage or pole barn with electric to it and then build my house and hook up the electric from there that way I could have an address for the garage and power. What do you guys think?
There are ultimately three things stopping me I figure from living completely off grid...the small water heater(my wife has this as an ultimatum)and the refridgerator, If I can come up with reasonable alternatives to those I'd have no problem with off grid. Also if I can be sure that with a woodstove my house won't freeze while Im at work I'd be good with just that.(maybe a way to drain lines if I leave for a while)
Depends on the area.
Where our cabin is located I got a 911 address by paying $5 to the county and telling them I needed it because I parked the RV up there and wanted to be sure emergency services could find me if I phoned in for a heart attack or something. Really. I could get a mailbox out on the highway if we wanted to. But we still have our mil go to the suburb address.
We don't exactly have permits. Neither does neighbor #1 with a cabin that's been there for some 5 years, neither does neighbor #2 with a structure that is no where near meeting code. Neighbor #1 is on the tax roles as having a cabin, but the assessor doesn't seem to talk to the permit department. This is one time I appreciate the bumbling NM government.
As far as the garage thing goes, some places don't let you build a garage before the house. Wouldn't you know it? You come up with a way around "it" and somebody has built a fence already. Here, I could get the power company to bring power to the land without having any buildings at all. All they want is the money; $55K.Inother places you need a permit for a house first.
Off grid water heater: Lots of ways around this if there's no permit requirements. And some if there are permits required. But that answer may vary depending on location nd codes. For my solution I am using an RV water heater; 6 gallons. It's propane fired. Left to burn with just the pilot light burning it uses very little gas. The pilot light supplies enough heat to heat the well insulated tank to where the water is HOT if left a day or so. Frugal showering techniques provides enough water for my wife to wash her hair when the need arises. She pretty well ues up all the available hot water, so if I want a shower the same day I have to turn the main burner on to allow the tank to recover. It works for us. Ernest T Basses family has a wood fired experiment going for heating water. Another choice would be more high tech and that would be a propane fired tankless heater. Pros and cons to them. One of them would require a large (200+ gallon) propane tank.
We have the advantage that our cabin is a second home, a refuge. When we stay up there for 10 - 12 days at a time we do laundry back in the suburbs. We've had the RV up there for a couple years, living in it while we cleaned up the land and thought about where/what to build. The cabin is now up, but needs finishing. I don't know if you've seen the topic (http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0). It's a bit long.
Refrigerator: We're going propane; a Servel. I'd rather have an efficient electric, but we'd need more solar panel and batteries than I want to buy at present. That may change in the future. For the time being I'm planning on using 40 and 60 pound portable propane tanks that I already own. Propane will also be used for a cook range, and a back up propane wall heater. Someday I may get a 200 or so gallon propane tank and buy in bulk. They deliver to one of my neighbors. You can lease a big tank for $52 a year here.
There are ways to set up reasonably easy systems to blow out the plumbing lines in cold weather.
Biggkidd (forum member) managed to get his address in the boonies registered with the school so his kids could attend school. I don't recall the details. Search his name and check on that.
does anyone know if the 14x24 "Little House with gable roof and shed over a front porch" can be made into a two bedroom home with town bedrooms in the loft area and a real basic stair case? ??? I was wondering because every floor plan and example only has a loft over half the main floor. Id really prefer the 14x24 if it works and then once I'm in it and our debts are paid off I can add on.
Also I was wondering if anyone has built a similar building...what was the cost?
Everyday I'm getting new ideas, I am itching to get moving. I just need to find the right peice of land.
Thank you,
Wildbil
Here is what I'm doing. Some of it is blatantly not kosher, but I'm pretty remote and none of the neighbors are anywhere near compliant either. Plus they are thrilled that someone is finally cleaning up (this land was trashed by temporary "squatters") and doing something permanent on this property.....so for the moment, I feel fairly safe.
Where our cabin is located I got a 911 address by paying $5 to the county
Clallam County Washington - The 911 address cost nothing in 2004.
We don't exactly have permits.
Clallam County - neither do I - anything under 400 sqft doesn't require one, unless you are putting in electrical or plumbing. - I'm off grid and ignoring this.
Off grid water heater: For my solution I am using an RV water heater;
Clallam County - I'm saving for a non-electric propane fired on-demand water heater - about $700. I have a 100 gal propane tank which will do for now - it will also run a wall mounted and vented non-electric furnace to supplement the wood stove. I do not like stoking a cold fire in an icy house on a cold morning.
Clallam County Refrigerator: I would love to have a Servel, but may install an RV fridge instead, $750 vs $2k is compelling at this point. The smaller fridge seems ok for one person. I might spend the big bucks for a Servel freezer though.
Also, the permit people and the assessor's office do not communicate in this county. One of the employees in the assessor's office lives in the "neighborhood", and they depend on this lack of communication to do things the way they want to as well.
Neighborhood is a loose term, there are about 7 houses in a 1 mile radius.
Quote from: wildbil on November 21, 2008, 08:16:17 AM
does anyone know if the 14x24 "Little House with gable roof and shed over a front porch" can be made into a two bedroom home with town bedrooms in the loft area and a real basic stair case? ??? I was wondering because every floor plan and example only has a loft over half the main floor. Id really prefer the 14x24 if it works and then once I'm in it and our debts are paid off I can add on.
Also I was wondering if anyone has built a similar building...what was the cost?
Everyday I'm getting new ideas, I am itching to get moving. I just need to find the right peice of land.
Thank you,
Wildbil
My RV Garage was built off of that plan converted to post and beam by me to use bridge timbers I already had. It has a full loft with a steep stair. A dormer could help with the stair or extending the second floor walls by using taller side studs in balloon framing fashion.
John's plans can be easily modified to do things such as that.
My total cost for the job was $200 but it was two story plus attic and cupola so took extra materials.
I think that figure is not of much use to you as I scrounged everything and sawed my own lumber to cover what was not given to me.
There's nothing to keep you from putting in a loft at both ends or installing a full length set of ceiling/floor joists if you want. Planning the access may be difficult if you don't want to, or can't use ladders. Codes don't like ladders in some places. Some people, like myself, don't lke ladders either. Stairs though are a real space eater. You could use a U-shaped set someplace or an L-shape stair against an end wall. There are minimum widths and maximum rises that need to be observed in code areas.
Spiral stairs IMO, are a bother, are impossible to move any large objects up or down and may not be code in some places.
Keep in mind it is easy to lengthen the 14 ft wide little house.
Quote from: MountainDon on November 21, 2008, 12:10:39 PM
There's nothing to keep you from putting in a loft at both ends or installing a full length set of ceiling/floor joists if you want. Planning the access may be difficult if you don't want to, or can't use ladders. Codes don't like ladders in some places. Some people, like myself, don't lke ladders either. Stairs though are a real space eater. You could use a U-shaped set someplace or an L-shape stair against an end wall. There are minimum widths and maximum rises that need to be observed in code areas.
Spiral stairs IMO, are a bother, are impossible to move any large objects up or down and may not be code in some places.
Keep in mind it is easy to lengthen the 14 ft wide little house.
ELEVATOR!!!! Even the Flintstones had them :)
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I know, d* d* d* d*
Extending the 14 x 24 might be a good idea. I'm really trying to get a good idea on what that space will feel like. The bedrooms can be small, with the cieling low cause were only going to sleep in them. The only real open space I want is the livingroom. I need it to be some what comfortable, yet I cant just build a normal bloated home cause that would defeat the purpose. The camp I belong to is about 20' by 30' and I feel I could easily fit 2 bedrooms in that. When it warms up I'm going to stake out some demensions in the yard and size this place up.
thanks for the info guys,
Wildbil
We drew (chalk) our original concept out on the driveway. Drew furniture with differenr colored chalk
Quote from: MountainDon on November 21, 2008, 04:56:27 PM
We drew (chalk) our original concept out on the driveway. Drew furniture with differenr colored chalk
Till the guys with the labcoats showed up!!!!!! NO,NO,NO, Really we know it's not real, Really we do!!!! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
We used some stakes, ropes and poles with tarps to give a feel of the walls and ceilings,..........and to hide us from the street. ;)
Quote from: cordwood on November 21, 2008, 05:30:39 PM
Quote from: MountainDon on November 21, 2008, 04:56:27 PM
We drew (chalk) our original concept out on the driveway. Drew furniture with differenr colored chalk
Till the guys with the labcoats showed up!!!!!! NO,NO,NO, Really we know it's not real, Really we do!!!! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
He's been hanging around the work place toooo long.
so far I've figured out all in a plan that is quickly coming together, except water. Running a pump off solar power is asking a bit much, and I dont want to rely soley on rain water. I'm trying to figure a way to pump water into a cistern or maybe something gravity fed. estimated usages: 10 gal water heater for showers, hand dish washing, sort of primitive clothes washing, drinkage, light gardening at first. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
If you have a well most methods for extracting the water require electricity. Here in NM there still are a few of the old wind mill pumps for ag purposes; just though I'd toss that in. There's a guy who makes his living repairing and refurbishing the old waster pumps and their windmills.
There are some pumps specifically designed for solar. I believe they are rather slow and you'd need a cistern between well and point of use. From there an RV pump can supply water to the system in the cabin.
If you have rainfall it can be used. People who lived in the FL Keys back a few decades had to do that. No wells, no municipal water, and it worked. That is still done in the Caribbean.
If you had a cistern that would allow you to have a weeks worth of water, or more on hand, you could run a generator whenever the cistern needed filling. I don't like that, but it is an option. Most solar installation require a generator anyways.
I used to do some work on old Aermotor windmill pumps, I think they are still around but they were a lot more work than the cowboy movies made them out to be.
Standing the tower and mounting the head requires more than a buddy with a pickup usually [scared]
I can still remember standing in the shower with soap in my eyes
waiting for someone to get the diesel pump runing to supply the showers. This was in a boys boarding school in Jamaica in the Then
British West Indies. They collected the water off the roof tops into large
covered cisterns the size of a large swimming pool. Then they had a windmill pump it up to a water tower. When the water ran out of the tower, they tried to get the diesel pump running. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. This was on top of one of the highest mountains there and even though this was a tropical island, it would get cold enough to hail. And no, they didn't have a hot water heater.
Bruce
Quote from: MountainDon on November 21, 2008, 06:35:07 PM
If you had a cistern that would allow you to have a weeks worth of water, or more on hand, you could run a generator whenever the cistern needed filling. I don't like that, but it is an option. Most solar installation require a generator anyways.
You dont like the whole setup or just needing a generator?
What about a quality handpump on the well piped into a large cistern to compliment the rain water and using only a low wattage rv pump to bring the water out of that?
of course if I had no water heater then I see no reason why water couldnt be handpumped directly into the cabin? It would require us heating our water up on a stove and I'm not sure the wife would go that far(shes does have some requirements I have to follow)
I've already been through your whole process, and am getting ready to build now, all permitted and ready to go, so it's time to make some final decisions. I've found that you can't decide alot of this stuff until you have land and are actually getting ready to build. But the best course is the one you're taking, trying on everything for size. Just be flexible enough to change your mind if something better/different/totally unexpected comes along.
This forum is among the best places to gather information from folks who are already doing it. Invaluable! Also look at Backwoods Home magazine, and some old issues of Mother Earth News when many of their solutions were do it yourself on a budget, unlike now.
I'm wish ya the best. We want similar things :) I also started by paring down exactly what we need and building up with the compromises (ie wife, budget and time lol). It seems I like about efficiency and ease of workability and affordability my beautiful wife seems to want a "normal" fridge instead of a modified freezer that would be more effecient lol. Also a bathtub , OOOOHHH that one hurt ..takes up alot of space uses alot of hot water . However I don't want to live there alone ;D So between the two of us we have come to a floor plan (through a couple years of discussions and a few nice words) and details that seem to work for both of us . Sweet and I will still be married ..woohoo
okay the tip i thought i'd share about your freezing water issue.
When i was growing up we used wood to heat and when it got real cold and we left for the day or longer we would just leaving the water running a bit. It was enough to keep that 40 degree water flowing through the pipes and nothing ever frooze in 20 + years. I'm not sure your local..but we are in upstate ny as a refrenece...it get's pretty cold I think ???
Regarding Wildbil's original post: My only thought to add would be, be very careful what you expect out of your friends. At the end of the day, it's your house, not theirs, so if you want to build your own house be prepared to do all of it yourself because it may very well come to that.
Quote from: wildbil on November 22, 2008, 12:16:44 AM
You don't like the whole setup or just needing a generator?
Generator. We've been living in the RV for 2 years now up in our mountains while deciding what to build and where to build it. Solar PV power will be the main power source when all is said and done. That is scheduled for the coming spring/summer. In the meantime the batteries are replenished using a Yamaha inverter generator. It's a PITA to have to run it. A generator needed for battery maintenance is one thing; having to run it for specific needs from battery charging to operating a water pump or microwave becomes "old" after a while. Not to mention the quantity of gasoline. OMMV.
Re: heating water on a stove for all purposes... also becomes "old" after a while, IMO. We do that after the RV is winterized. My first mate would mutiny if it was a year round thing. /// I might have that wrong... maybe she's the captain and I'm the mate? ;D
"We used some stakes, ropes and poles with tarps to give a feel of the walls and ceilings,..........and to hide us from the street."
I thought I had it all figured out - used some basic computer software, jumped in with the confidence of ignorance....
The funny thing about the 14 x 24 was that when it was only a foundation it looked really small.
When the floor was done it looked really big.
Then the walls were framed in and it looked really small again.
Then I got the roof on and it looked really big again.
Then I got the walls covered and it looks just right. Each time I stood back and said, boy did I get that wrong! (meaning my concept of how big and/or livable it is going to be..)
I will have two lofts accessed by an L shaped stair, and connected by a diagonal catwalk. There is more walking around room than I had hoped for when I was designing it.
I think the key for me to keep the space a comfortably livable size is to put in as much built in storage as possible and a cathartic garage sale when I get my household goods out of storage and formally move in.
Hi Wildbil, somehow missed this whole post! Lots of good, interesting ideas from everyone. I always get a kick out of the men writing about their needs vs the wife's! We can do without a lot of the modern conveniences, but there are just some things that we can't do without, lol... Considerations has done a wonderful job in planning the rooms, lofts etc - using the space to its best advantage - gives you a good idea what a woman wants in a home... anyway, have really enjoyed reading through this thread :)
wish you the best, Wildbil - you'll make your dream come true & your marriage strong by considering the wife's needs & wants c* BTW, is that a picture of your little one? Cute baby!
Quote from: Sassy on November 25, 2008, 01:40:09 PM
gives you a good idea what a woman wants in a home...
Where was "man" listed... hmm
::) [slap] [noidea' rofl
Quote from: Sassy on November 25, 2008, 01:40:09 PM
Hi Wildbil, somehow missed this whole post! Lots of good, interesting ideas from everyone. I always get a kick out of the men writing about their needs vs the wife's! We can do without a lot of the modern conveniences, but there are just some things that we can't do without, lol... Considerations has done a wonderful job in planning the rooms, lofts etc - using the space to its best advantage - gives you a good idea what a woman wants in a home... anyway, have really enjoyed reading through this thread :)
wish you the best, Wildbil - you'll make your dream come true & your marriage strong by considering the wife's needs & wants c* BTW, is that a picture of your little one? Cute baby!
Yes my name tag is my daughter. Shes 8 months now. Thankyou for your support. I'll be around asking tons of questions and maybe spouting off a few I think of myself too. By next spring I'll have land and then I can start posting building pics.
Some land has recently caught my eye, but I'm not sure about buying land in the winter.
The place is 6.45 acres of mixed field and woods(regrowth it appears from clear cut). The neighbors are mostly amish farmers, and a few normal homes nearby. The road is a secondary paved road. Theres a condemned house near the road that could be fire wood. The well is useless as its too far away from where I would build. The land is at the base of a hill , but it isnt low where water would pool, and it evens off. its going for 15.9k which its been on the market a while already and I could probably work a deal if the seller needs to get rid of it.
Should I just wait until spring to look at it? we already have a good layer of snow.
If it was here it wouldn't be there tomorrow.
That's 1/2 the price of a new car. The car may last for 10 years or less and guaranteed it will have problems by 3. There's nothing wrong with driving a horse and buggy. I'd probably only worry about the "normal" homes. :)
The land will be there forever. It could even make you rental property for your old age if you decided you didn't like it.
Check it out.
It depends on how much information you can get. In my areas I can get tax maps, topo maps, soil maps, and flood maps online. $2000 an Acre is my normal price break point. Check with the county office if a recent survey was done too.
If I could spend some extra time hiking around it and asking the neighbors, I would be comfortable. Everybody has a different level of comfort. If it is a lower price than others in the area and has been on the market for a while, it may have something wrong with it. It might not be the land but the legal paper work.
Quote from: wildbil on November 26, 2008, 07:48:26 AM
Some land has recently caught my eye, but I'm not sure about buying land in the winter.
The place is 6.45 acres of mixed field and woods(regrowth it appears from clear cut). The neighbors are mostly amish farmers, and a few normal homes nearby. The road is a secondary paved road. Theres a condemned house near the road that could be fire wood. The well is useless as its too far away from where I would build. The land is at the base of a hill , but it isnt low where water would pool, and it evens off. its going for 15.9k which its been on the market a while already and I could probably work a deal if the seller needs to get rid of it.
Should I just wait until spring to look at it? we already have a good layer of snow.
Check on restrictions for building on that small of land. Here in Ar. less than 10 acres is completely different for what can and can,t be done. Plus 6.45 acres don't leave much room to hide from the "Normal Homes" with ???
Winter is when I like to look at land, Less under growth to crash through and when the leaves are off you can tell more about the lay of the land as well as "WHO" can see "WHO" :o. Snow might make finding corner markers a little harder.
"Snow might make finding corner markers a little harder."
Nor would I close a deal without a survey. People creep their fences and lawns over property lines all the time, and the real estate agent sure isn't going to tell you squat.
I've even found markers that have been moved or disappeared.."how" is anybodies guess.
My neighbor is a great gal, but over the years she got 15' of her cleared area into my property along a 600' run.
The survey staking was a delicate moment in the evolution our relationship.
Thank you all for your wisdom, The property search is still going strong. I've seen a few 10 acre peices all of which costing around 30k and that have been on the market for a while. I keep having this feeling with this economy that if I dont get started, the crap economy will be hindering me from my plans of a mostly self sufficient lifestyle :(. I wish it would at least pick up for a few more years.
My plan is morphing a little bit too. I am thinking of a 200 sq ft building with loft on a few country acres just to have a place for us to stay and sell my small town house. It would give me some practice before a larger building, and would not need permits to build. But I do have a few questions...Does loft space count for sq footage? and If seating was built into the home, like a seating area that was sticking out of the home
_____-----_____ would that count as sq footage?
This wouldnt be permanent just a way to get out of my home easier before building another, but it would have to keep a wife and baby until the city house was gone.
Quote from: wildbil on November 28, 2008, 04:52:39 PM...Does loft space count for sq footage? and If seating was built into the home, like a seating area that was sticking out of the home
_____-----_____ would that count as sq footage?
Depends/ I know that's not very helpful, but it comes back again to the local interpretation, or method of doing things.
Here and back home, the square footage for a building is calculated by using the exterior measurements, not by measuring the interior floor spaces and adding them together. Back home a "bump out" was not considered in totaling unless it provided actual floor space; not sure about where we are now.
Also, I think in some places you can build a 200 sq foot building without a permit, but only if you already have a main house on the property.
To update you all, I went around and looked at the places I had thought would be good for my project. Every place has something wrong with it. One has not just a house but a full 3 crumpled barns and other trash scattered over it, the next was a frozen cedar swamp, several others were way too close to neighbors. so my list is back to zero. anything in the 5-10 acre range around here right now is shabby. I might decide to look at a few 3 acre parsels, but it would be nice to have enough land to hunt and collect wood. :( d* d* d* d* d* d* :(
This my not seem like significant advice, but be patient and keep looking. I laughed at my friend who told me it took him 3 years to find his property. "I'll never take 3 years!" I told him,
it was 3 years + of fairly active looking over a 30 - 60 mile radius before I found mine.
Best of luck
My search took almost 2 years and a 60 mile radius. Bad water, bad zoning, marshes, ridiculously steep slopes, you name it, I found it.
Its the Zen of property searching, but by the time i found this place, I knew what I was looking for. It became a form of recreation, and I did sightseeing that helped me really get to know the different areas. I quit talking to real estate agents, and just found the property addresses on my own through the MLS and GIS systems and then went and looked them over by myself. Since they were bare land, I didn't have to worry about owner/renter occupants, etc.
I'd been through the process of qualifying property so many times that I was able to weigh the lists of pros and cons pretty quickly, and had a pretty good idea of what kind of offer would land the purchase.
In my case I traded off investing in an initial period of junk hauling to get a year round stream, high ground for building and a cedar grove shielding me from neighborly views.
What I didn't know, and really lucked out on, was how many great "neighbors" are out here.
Economically, I'd be surprised if things get better any time soon, so time may work to your advantage if you can sequester the funds you are planning on using for the property.
Since everybody's life has ultimately the same outcome, its the journey that counts.
1 acre of woods can give you almost 2 cords of deadfall a year. So 3-4 acres with a small, well insulated house may be enough. If it's been timbered this doesn't apply.