Hello Everyone
Yes I am new to the board. Just ran across it from other message boards of which I am a member. I hope that spelling and proper grammer is not needed. I try but occassionally hit the wrong buttons.
I am into a 2-3 year project restoring and building antique hand hewed log cabin . Getting into the time consuming stage of chinking now. Once I figure out how to post photographs I will try to include one.
The location is in the mountains at the WV & VA line adjacent to the National Forrest. Needless to say there is no power. Is there anyone on the board that has developed a economical system for power under these circumstances. I have looked into gas(bottled) for a standby generator to charge batteries (deep cycle) and then using an inverter to run the lights. Most appliances will be gas as well as room heaters.
Any suggestions will be appreciated.
John
You could look into a Lister CS (cold start) diesel engine with a generator head. About as simple as they come and will run on vegitable oil, diesel fuel, WVO, Bio-diesel, et al....
They are fairly big and heavy but run forever. Max RPM is around 650-700.
Thanks for your reply. I was leaning more toward a standby type that would automaticly start when the draw down on the power occurs. Something on the lines of Generac 6-7KW. If the wind turbines and solar were not so darn expensive I would consider them. I did find a well pump 10GPM that operate on either DC or AC from a 1200 watt inverter. Still looking around. In the construction end I have a 5KW to run the power tools.
I second the Listers or Listeroids. I have one as backup...but they would be very hard to make automatic. Wind power is only as expensive as you want to make it.....but I grew up in the area you're talking about and I doubt you could use wind without a 100' tower.
Solar would be your best bet although not cheap. If you have any water, hydro is a possibility and IMHO the most cost effective form of dependable power in Va.
Hi and good to see you here redoverfarm. The first question is how much power do you need?
Next is how to make the power, solar, hydro, wind, engine driven generator.
You stated you're in the mountains. Do you have a good south exposure suitable for solar PV panels? This needs to be totally shadow free.
Do you have a year round running stream? Hydro is possible on small scale.
Do you have a wind power favorable site? Wind needs a tall tower if you have trees, 30 ft above highest nearby trees is best.
A lister or copy called a listeroid diesel powered generator would make for a nicer longer lived generator than any gasoline powered generator. But also more expensive.
I personally don't like propane fueled generators as the use of propane de-rates the capacity (compared to gasoline)and unless you have an onsite tank (100+ gallons) you spend a lot of time hauling bottles.
So start with a worksheet for your power requirements and be honest and generous, your use will grow.
Then the battery bank can be sized. The battery bank should be able to provide 2 - 3 days of power to allow for cloudy days, unless you are going to depend on a generator as a primary power source for charging the batteries.
Once the battery bank is sized you can then calculate what is needed in terms of solar, hydro, wind or other.
Your wallet size is a factor too of course.
That's pretty general. There is no one and only correct way to do it. Feel free to ask/comment more.
BTW...welcome to the site! :)
There you have it. I kind of flounder through power production (Like a bull in a china shop)
Glenn is more precise but when Don speaks, the world listens!
BTW redoverfarm, one of the easier ways to post photos is to open a free photobucket.com account. Once a picture is uploaded there there's a link you click on to copy the image (IMG) tag. That tag is then simply pasted into your forum message. Bam! That's it. Other services work but some don't handle the image request from a remote site.
I will try to answer some of the questions posed. Water is out of the question. Wind is probably workable as the cabin is on a ridgetop. The majority of the larger trees had been removed for the cabin. There is good southern exposure for solar but to get enough power I think it would be costly. In regards to the power consumption. I am trying to keep this to a minimum.
The biggest would be the well pump. The frig will be gas as well as the range, hot water heater, room heaters and maybe a couple of gas lights in case the generator would malfunction the battery level would be low. Eventually I think there will be power available but not in the foreseeable future short term anyway. I am wiring the house for standard power and what ever is used will feed into the panel box.
I am having a 1000gal propane tank installed to take care of the gas items mentioned above as well as the generator. There will be a wood fireplace and wood cook stove.
Welcome to the forum, John.
I haven't done this one yet but rust power is a way to do it. De-compose scrap metal with batteries you make yourself to supply power. Requires tinkering time but there is no question that it will work. Good E-Book.
http://rmrc.org/rustpower.html
Wind power can be cheap but as Peter says -- it may take a tall tower -- that you can build yourself - I did.
http://poormansguides.com/index3.htm
QuoteI am having a 1000gal propane tank installed
WhooHoo! That's a good gas supply, John.
Okay another question, or two. :) How much water will you be using? Water for a toilet and septic system? Laundry, etc.? Is the well already in place? What's its rate of flow?
You mentioned a pump capable of 10 GPM at 1200 watts (or able to run off a 1200 watt inverter). Can the well supply that for an hour, or ?
Don
The reason for the high volumn tank is that the useage for the appliances will surely drain anything smaller. :-[I am sorry it's getting late. I am putting in a 500 gal tank. Been up since 0530 and worked on the cabin today. I hate it when I find a new site and don;t have since to get off and go to bed when I should. Tomorrow is another day. By the way I sent a PM to you. Been reading some of the other post "270" and it appears that everyone there has went completely over my head when it comes to what I need. I think I will make a last check on my incoming and hit the sack. My god it's 1145. Talk some later.
John
Have a good night's rest John. It's 2 hours earlier here. :)
I couldn't find this earlier... was looking in all the wrong places. :-[
http://www.affordable-solar.com/index.php?file=c-off_grid
It's an online off-grid power use calculator. It's set up with a more typical user with appliances, TV's etc. in mind but can be used to see what amounts of electrical power you might use. Try it and input some data for CF lights as well. They are very efficient and have the advantage (to me) of not putting out heat when you don't need or want heat added to the interior. Enter any values that are similar to projected use and click on the = button by the item. It totals up the watt-hours use when you click the Load Size button. This is done for a typical days use, whatever that may be.
Knowing the daily watt-hours you can get a handle on what's needed for the rest of the system.
Don't try to rush things. We can help all we can one step at a time.
Don
Thanks for the calculator. Don't have time this morning but will give it a shot tonight. Got to beat the rain today on my chinking.
John
I'm thinking about your question this morning. Where are you pumping water from? The reason I'm asking is the pump your thinking about is a power hog. A very small pump that will trickle water into a 50 gal tank and an RV 12 volt pressure pump from there would save a ton of power.
I have a problem that I guess is rare, maybe not, but my wife wants to be off grid but use more power than our on grid house. The shower is a good example. She insists on multiple head showers....so....two of these are going in the barn...er house:
http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-pumps-water/shurflo-pumps.htm?source=google&gclid=CPuq5LW1mI8CFQeNHgodXRzLTQ
One for most of the water usage and two for the shower. They still are fairly easy on power and are run off of straight 12 volt.
Note that I used the 115 volt model to pressurize a reverse osmosis filter. It failed and nearly caught fire under the sink at our other house. If we hadn't been there and smelled it burning the windings it may have caught the house on fire.
Big bummer Glenn. There are thousands of those 2088 pumps in service in RV's. It's the old standard. Normally don't do that.
The 2088 is also available in 24 VDC, model 2088-474-144. I may use one of them in the cabin.
Peter, that's the direction I was heading on my well/pump question. Either a holding tank like you described, or a larger tank that would hold several days to a weeks worth of water at the ready. The generator could supply the power needed to run it. Running the generator as frequently as once a week is good for the engine and gen too.
I'm sure it was the same one- bought it at WW Grainger. Checked - they still carry it.
Maybe mounting it on sheetrock would be a good idea. I no longer use it as we drilled a new well and raised the pressure. Burned one is still in place but unhooked.
Quote
I have a problem that I guess is rare, maybe not, but my wife wants to be off grid but use more power than our on grid house. The shower is a good example. She insists on multiple head showers....so....two of these are going in the barn...er house:
One for most of the water usage and two for the shower. They still are fairly easy on power and are run off of straight 12 volt.
So what's wrong with that, Peter? :-? ;) ;D
Nothing I guess Sassy ...except, I keep telling her that people will call the place the Widow Nap's place. ;D ;D ;DShe doesn't think it's as funny as I do.
Here's a photo of the log cabin from John (redoverfarm). He has troubles handling photos, so I gave him a helping hand.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends/100_1457.jpg)
I'll let John fill in with some details.
Looks like a cool project.
Looks neat, with a nice basement too. :)
I like the blend of the old and the new.
I'm very interested in seeing more of this project. :) :)
(willing to help with photos, John)
Good morning
Another day and another dollar in debt. It rained this morning which is the first we have had in 4-6 weeks. So I have got a little time to give some answers to the replied post.
Don- Thanks for the help on the photo. Will occassionally send you one from time to time on the progress. The cabin is actually two different cabins which I put together as a "dog trot" style. It is set on a 1/2 basement and crawlspace. The basement is 16' X 20' and the crawlspace is under the kitchen(right facing) and master bedroom and bath( Board & batten) in the back. There is a tripple flue that runs through the center between the kitchen and living room (fireplace . wood cook stove and hot water heater). The fireplace will be finished in faux or cultured stone as well as the basement entrance. There will be a master bed and bath on the ground floor and two lofts above. The cabins are pre-civil war I think. I know that one is. Well onto the matter at hand.
Well I just got nipped in the bud with my well pump. I had looked into a Grundfos pump. It has "no start surge" with a draw of 9.8 amps. It was suppose to be a 10gpm@160' and 5gpm@200' Well my well is 220' with the static a 160' plus 12' additional lift to the cabin. I was planning on sitting the pump at 200'. The well is producing 10GPM with 30' of hydrollic pressure in the casing from 190' up to 160'. But to my dismay this pump is a non-pressure pump and if a pressure tank is added my end result will be .5gpm :(. I was told that I could install a storage tank, pump into that and then put another type pump to pressure tank. Now I have two pumps pulling electric not to mention the added maintenance.
As for the appliances that will be used. Well this will be a minimum. No washer or dryer at this time. Heck it is only 2 miles from my regular residence(on grid). I couldn't get my wife there for any extended period of time any way. And it is a rustic cabin. Then kind they used to carry water to and used the small shed in the back to read the paper or leaf through the outdated magazines :D. Probably put a small microwave , coffee maker, mixer, and maybe a tv and satelite dish. If I used a computer it would have to be "hughes net" as there is no phone. Lights will be a minimum. couple of ceiling fans.
Well there you have it in a nutshell. I am sure I haven't answered all but this will give you'all some idea about the project that I hadn't mentioned before or did I.
This has sure been a challange and I recommend it to anyone that wants to go nuts. Challange for sure but what to you expect for plans drawn up on a brown paper bag [smiley=laugh.gif]
G'morning John. ice to have the explanation about the cabin(s). It's quite nice.
Re the well/pump. The use of the Grunfos to fill a storage tank was where I was headed with my thinking. I was thinking that whenever the storage tank needed replenishing that could be done by running the generator... once a week maybe? Or the batteries and inverter could be sized appropriately, along with solar PV panels and powered that way. Power from the batteries/inverter would increase the size and cost of the solar though.
Water in a storage tank with a fairly low power DC pressure pump could be run right off the batteries, either a 12 VDC or a 24 VDC.
Gotta go work; more thoughts later.
The Grundfos to a storage tank is a good setup - then run the little 12v sure flow from that. The Grundfos solar pump is pretty pricey though. I helped on the installation and set up of one. It worked well.
Here's a good article on solar water pumping.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago91.html
DARN
I wish I had thought about it before the cabin was built. The 16'X16'X4' or the 16'X18'X4' crawl space would have been the ideal location to put the storage tank. I could shop around and find something that would fit through a 24" X 24" or 36" X 36"crawlspace opening.
The off the shelf price including the lightning arrestor is about$660. I have a friend who is checking with a dealer on his cost.
Got to go pick up the kids from the bus to keep them dry.
Later
more thoughts....
Cabin lights: you mentioned gas before. That works, but most of the hyear I wouldn't want the heat they generate. CF bulbs a low heat emitters and low electrical users.
Coffee maker: I'd get a stove top maker, something you'd just use gas to boil the water and pour it through a Melita type filter.
Microwave: running through an inverter from the batteries is way more convenient than cranking up the generator. Also better for the generator engine. Short runs are not good if avoidable.
TV: LCD use the lowest amount of power. We use a LCD TV/DVD player combo unit in the RV. 43 watts @ 120 VAC. I run it off a small Cobra modified sine wave inverter so the big inverter doesn't have to loaf. Big one uses more DC power at low loads than the Cobra. Cobra has a vari-speed fan as well.
Sat TV: I haven't a clue about them. No idea of their power use.
Sat Internet: I'd like to be connected and that would be the only way. I dislike contracts, so I'd have to get over that. Again, no idea on power use.
Anyhow, with such small demands I think you could get along with about 325 -350 watts worth of panels and 4 - 6 volt golf cart batteries. Lots of variables, so I can't say for sure without youi estimating your power needs and totaling the daily watt-hours. They'd give you 880 amp-hours @ 12 VDC, or 440 amp-hours @ 24 VDC. You'd only actually use at most, one half of that before needing a re-charge. Best would be more batteries and only run them down 25% at most. I'd go for a 24 VDC system myself. Add an inverter to run the m-wave, lights and other 120 VAC stuff. Depending on your abilities to build your own panel racks, your ability to cobble the electrics together vs. having to buy factory made everything such a system should likely run $3K to $4K. Don't hold me to that; it's a guess.
Here is a couple of other photo's of different views. I think I matched the colors fairly well so far. It's hard to decide on addition materials but this was the most economical (board & batten or Jenny Lind). Cedar shakes here are $260 a square, The one photo of the end view of the log cabine I was standing in Virginia when I took this. The cabin is in WV.
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends/100_1280.jpg)
(https://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q75/djmillerbucket/oddsnends/100_1278.jpg)
Don thanks for the suggestions. I will have to try to digest all the information I have received.
Thanks for posting the photos. I need to get more computer literate and learn how myself. I tried last night but the photo was took large to be sent and then I lost the post message also.
I think right now I will concentrate on getting what done I can on the cabin before winter sets in. Last year I wasn't able to get to the cabin for 2 months because of the snow and ice on the road. It wasn't that it was that bad weatherwise but the road is a National Forrest road with no winter maintenance or snow removal. I will be able to use that time this year to figure and order what is needed.
I got the idea of Generator, deep cycle & inverter from a friend who has a summer home off the grid he uses in the summer and has been for about 10-15 years. He lives at the dead end past my cabin about 6 miles in. He is just learning also and tries different things. I believe he used regular 12 volt marine batteries 6-8 I think.
Talking about wells and water. Another friend from Charlotte is trying to drill a well within eyesight of my cabin now. He has gone 680 to yesterday evening and still no water. Ouch at $10ft. He said he was going to try to go a little further today. I am fortunate I hit at 190 at the same elevation but different formation.
Thanks again
John
I have been so used to" measure twice and cut once" it must have bled over into my computer. No this wonder box had done a weird thing and I wasn't sure it had went. So in doubt do it again.
This doesn't have near enough headd for you but for those that have springs or very shallow wells, I found this today. Inexpensive, good delivery rate and 30' of head.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1P580
I'm interested in the location, is the cabin in Rockingham or Shenandoah counties?
peter
You are too far east. I believe that Rockingham Co is Harrisonburg. The cabin is actually in WV (Pocahontas County)on the WV & VA (Bath County)line. Harrisonburg is about 2 hrs from me.
I was born in Shenandoah, raised in Rockingham and spent a big part of my life hunting in Bath!
Truly Gods country although even that is starting to see some buildup. Many years ago, I owned a small farm in Highland to hunt on. I was convinced it would never start to get built up ....fooled me. It's not the burbs yet but too many people to suit me,
That's a marvelous job your doing on the cabin!
Yes, it does really look neat - great that you are restoring it - & you blended the old with the new really nicely! 8-)
Looks great... look forward to seeing more pictures of it as you move along.
peter
Don't get to Highland county that much. Usually go to the Sugar Maple Festival but didn't make it this year. Too busy. I had a friend who also had a farm there. He was from Charles Town and moved there to raise horses. Name was Buckingham. I don't think he could make a living and went back to the Horse track.
You can build a ferrocrete tank anywhere you want any size you want for a very low cost. Bags of sand, chicken wire - and cement will fit through the hole.
Chicken wire -maybe 4 layers wired together, sand, cement, light rebar on a bigger tank or to hold shape of the chicken wire. Maybe an inch or two thick. Cast a thin ferrocrete cover on the ground and you have it made.
I taught a lady customer how to build a 400 gallon tank for her septic effluent sump tank. Worked just great. Cost was under $100.
That's a great idea Glenn. Any chance you could do a mini tutorial?
Gotta go now and do battle with the Million Mom Marchers! >:(
Militant Moms. What is this world coming to. :o
Check out this online instruction manual, Peter. Scaling down could use less steel -to just chicken wire - maybe 3 laps for a smaller one. There are various sealers or crystalizing sealers that can be put on afterward or some can be added to the mix. I haven't researched that in a while.
http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1173198158
http://ferrocement.com/tankBook/indici.en.html
http://ferrocement.com/Page_1/english.html
http://ferrocement.com/casa-contents/contents.en-ferroHouse-web.html