Get out of the City NOW!

Leo · October 05, 2005, 03:47:03 PM

The bird flu is on the news channels allot today. cdc wants that at high risk vaccinated by 10-20 something 05.just plain creepy

Jimmy_Cason · October 05, 2005, 07:40:43 PM

I just found out today the cost of electricity in Denton, Texas will go up about 40% in just one month!
If my bill was around 100 dollars it will now be 140.00 for using the same amount of electricity!

Gotta get my house built....
Move from the city for good.....
feeling faint.........
waiting for the next electric bill at my apartment....

bil2054 · October 06, 2005, 02:05:55 PM

Much food for thought in this thread.

My experience of country living is that "networking" per se is redundant. Country folk generally understand the neccesity of helping one another. Plus, with fewer "entertainment" venues, interactions with the neighbors carry greater importance for us social critters.

I can't wait to relocate and get started. Driving on the streets here is always a new level of frustration, and friends think I live in the boonies now! I nostalgically recall sitting on the porch of our farm, and when a car went by, somebody asking "Who was that?" I also remember having truly wonderful fruits and vegetables from our own orchard and gardens, and free range eggs and chickens from the folks up the street, (didn't know they were "free range" at the time!) When I was a lactose intolerant infant, there was a goat farmer nearby. Today there is "formula", whatever that is!

I don't know that it is better than city life; I won't have the same access to medical care, (but maybe I won't need it so much!). No book stores around, but there is a library about twenty miles away. No electricity, but no traffic, and very little air pollution. There is much to attract me at a time when, willy nilly, life is slowing down a bit anyway. (O.K., O.K., its ME that's slowing down a bit!

)

I am minded of an anecdote about, I believe, Dan'l Boone, who upon going out one day, and seeing a spiral of smoke rising from a cabin chimney two mountain ridges away, decided it was time to move on 'cause the area was gettin' too crowded.

jonseyhay · October 06, 2005, 06:16:49 PM

For a downunder perspective on the bird-flu issue, here are a couple of radio discussions. The first is a talkback show that has some expert commentary as well as talkback from listeners. This is on demand radio and is available for about a week after the show.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/austback/

This one is an interview format show and is available for download in MP3 format. Although I consider the presenter a bit of a dropkick, his guests are usually worth listening to.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lnl/

After all that's scared you to death, here is my favorite streaming radio for some light relief.
http://bluegrassradio.microcerv.net/bluegrassradio

jonesy.

jraabe · October 08, 2005, 10:30:12 AM

Here is another article from a previously hot RE market area.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/transportation/12684641.htm.

And an interesting chart of the "affordability" of houses in different cities.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2005/06/02/cx_sc_0603home2.html

Amanda_931 · October 14, 2005, 10:18:35 AM

A more optimistic view of life in the city, post-oil is here:

http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/100305EC.shtml

Quote
Imagine shelves bare because of gas prices.

Acres of chard and lettuce in Golden Gate Park?

The Marina Green with community gardens?

Wind turbines on top of the Bank of America Building?

Welcome to the post-oil future.
.............

The reality is that in the very near future we will no longer be a mobile society. We are already seeing the beginnings of this, with rising fuel prices squeezing commuters, taxi drivers, independent truckers, and the entire aviation industry. The post-oil era will see our transformation from a transient society to one that focuses on home and neighborhood. Sprawl development will give way to compact, walkable environments. Suburbs will disappear altogether. Those in direct proximity to cities will be replaced by farms; those farther out will gradually be reclaimed by nature.

So, in many ways, the end of oil could be a very good thing for American society, prompting changes that will strengthen communities, humanize our cities and create a healthier population.

Cities, even individual neighborhoods, will need to become more self-sufficient. Agriculture will play a much more important role in everyday American life. Cities such as San Francisco will have to be creative in finding ways to feed their populations.

Richard Register of Oakland's nonprofit Ecocity Builders has spent the past 30 years writing and speaking on the subject of environmentally friendly and energy-efficient cities. With the looming oil crisis, his writings have taken on a greater sense of urgency. Nowadays, he grapples with the problem of how energy-depleted cities can provide food, water and other basic necessities for their populations. The creative touches that adorned his previous writings - the rooftop tennis courts, the uncovered creeks meandering along urban streets - have given way to the more practical: community gardens and greenhouses.

In describing the self-sufficient neighborhoods of the future, Register speaks of "urban fractals," neighborhoods that will contain in microcosm all the elements of entire cities, including housing, jobs, schools, shops, entertainment, and access to nature - neighborhoods that minimize the need for auto or even transit use.

Amanda_931 · October 14, 2005, 10:27:07 AM

Also I was going to post a (another?) link to this book and its sequel, not currently available as new.

But the list of demands, had we paid attention to them when the book came out, might have been sufficient to save the world more-or-less as we know it.

One of the five-star reviews for Ragged World is mine.

I didn't like the other one so much, but think I'll go back and reread it.

Ragged World

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312054998/qid=1129303263/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/102-5033885-9976111?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Time, Like an Ever-Rolling Stream

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312083238/qid=1129303263/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl14/102-5033885-9976111?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

October 14, 2005, 11:13:00 AM

One of the countries that has traveled this road is Cuba.

With the fall of the Soviet Union their cheap oil went away and the government made the choice to move toward less reliance on imported energy, fertilizer and farming equipment.

The result is that cities like Havana now grow the majority of their fresh produce inside their city limits in urban garden plots. Cuba has broken new ground not only in reducing energy dependence, but in the development of large and small scale sustainable organic farming methods.

http://www.foodfirst.org/node/1208

[glb]An afterthought: [/glb]
Could it be that future history books will record that all these years of enforced economic isolation by the U.S. resulted in Cuba becoming a laboratory for working out how civilization will survive in the 21st century?

Link to an earlier thread on Peak Oil:http://tinyurl.com/9vk2w

Amanda_931 · October 14, 2005, 10:18:07 PM

Not even thinking about keeping up with the Joneses does have it's benefits.

Even if Jones is spelled U. S. A.

And it's only 80 miles away.

bloovis · October 23, 2005, 08:18:01 AM

Lately I've been having very mixed feelings about the whole city-vs-country thing. I've been wanting to move to the sticks and put up a cabin for a long time. But I recently moved back to the city (Palo Alto, CA) to be close to work and avoid a 45-mile-one-way commute, and I have to confess that living here does have some advantages. I hardly need to use the car any more, and both work and grocery stores are a 10-minute bike ride away. I'm in a mobile home park and there is more of a neighborly feel here than other places I've lived.

Despite the advantages of living in the city, I'm still looking at this as a temporary situation. I miss the peace and quiet of the country very much. So I'm now thinking that maybe an ideal situation for me would be living in a smaller town instead of being so far out in the boonies that I have to use the car to do anything. I spent some time in Vermont in January, and fell in love with the place, so maybe that's where I'll end up.

glenn-k · October 23, 2005, 08:47:19 AM

In your case, Mark, it seems the country retreat would be a great idea, however it would probably not be anywhere near affordable to do within a short drive of Palo Alto.

Amanda_931 · October 23, 2005, 09:47:16 AM

Oh, good, it was in January that you were in Vermont. Although that might not give you a really good idea of what your neighbors would be like.

But if you're going to have to grow your own food there, short-season varieties, and/or greenhouses to extend the seasons are what I hear about from that part of the country.

For me to get a cup of coffee that I didn't make, it's a seven-mile round trip, probably up a steep hill no shoulders by the road, serious drop-off, which would make a bicyclist or a pedestrian nervous. (I know people who avoid that section of road at all costs no matter what they are on or in).

Plus it's nasty robusta coffee. Could be worse, could be nasty instant robusta coffee.

But 50 years ago there were little stores all over the place, one just down the hill from me. And if peak oil takes hold, there probably will be again--it will be worth it to pay extra for someone to buy and hold odds and ends from town.

It was nice living in the university areas of Nashville, with even a laundromat within walking distance. I guess we could have grown a good proportion of our vegetables there then--smallish houses, small lots.

But now that area is sooooo condo/apartment cluttered, that gardens aren't accessible to many.

Even if the restaurants are better.

I definitely agree with John that Cuba may be the sustainable model, just because it didn't--couldn't--use us as a model. And even if people one talks to there would give their eyeteeth to be rich and live in the U.S.

Bart_Cubbins · October 24, 2005, 11:13:05 PM

Quote
Note: After you have read some of the following, please post information proving it wrong, so we can see where the conspiracies are.

Ok, here's just one small bit...

The lead article on the http://www.girlsgofishing.com/index.htm site ("Donald Rumsfeld - Secret Benefactor
of Bird Flu Terror Profits") includes this passage:

"If you ask Vietnam how Tamiflu works on the bird flu...they'll tell you it is ineffective. Yet it it [sic] being touted throughout the US, Canada, and Britiain, of course, as the one thing available to save us from bird flu and are stepping-up production."

To back up these claims, the author links to a CBC article at http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2005/09/30/tamiflu20050930.html

But that article does not claim that Tamiflu is ineffective. What it actually says is that "Experts in Hong Kong warn that the human strain of the H5N1 bird flu that surfaced in Vietnam is showing resistance to the antiviral drug Tamiflu." There's a big difference between "ineffective" and "showing resistance".

The CBC article also includes these passages showing that the "touted as...the one thing available" claim is also a lie:

"There are now resistant H5N1 strains appearing, and we can't totally rely on one drug (Tamiflu)"

"Drug manufacturers were urged to make more effective versions of Relenza, an inhaled antiviral that is also known to be effective in battling the much feared H5N1."

"There are currently only four flu drugs marketed to battle flu"

The girlsgofishing site seems quick to accuse others of "fearmongering" and "hyperbole", but this article proves that they are guilty of it themselves.

glenn-k · October 24, 2005, 11:22:36 PM

They are out there on the edge, but do get you to think and look farther than what is force fed by the mainstream media. They are pretty heavy on the environmental stuff too. If they only get us to look a little further into things, I think we need to give them credit for that. I do have questions about some of their stuff also but I don't usaully stop at one theory without checking farther into the veracity of it.

Actually the next article states that Tamiflu doesn't have a track record with this flu. Seems like a pretty weak case for the Fed to spend 2 Billion dollars of the taxpayers money on.

"We don't have hard data because there have only been 118 people infected, and they haven't had a situation where they can give some of them Tamiflu and others not, and compare whether Tamiflu works. We're assuming that it will work with H5N1 with a reasonably good basis for that assumption, but there's no definite proof that it would make a difference with regard to hospitalization or life or death." See below for more.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4969363

Apparently Relenza is pretty well taking a fall due to useability and other problems. GSK was issued a writ by the developing/licensing company for non-support and other problems. The other thing is that either product only seems to cut about a day off sick time, or does it? Maybe hard to tell. My wife is a nurse and says ever since the product came out, she hasn't seen the point in it-- high cost and not or not very effective.

Relenza info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relenza

Another article from Dr. Mercola claiming this is a hoax (or at least a small threat blown up) for money to be made. I guess the near future will tell us if he is right. Several pages of a Google search seemed to indicate that he is quite credible.

http://mercola.com/blog/2005/oct/18/avian_flu_epidemic_scare_is_a_hoax

NELELGNE · October 25, 2005, 07:01:32 AM

Type MERCOLA in the "SEARCH" box at:
http://www.quackwatch.org/

tjm73 · October 25, 2005, 08:30:54 AM

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I'm no more worried about the bird flu than I am about any other flu at this point.

Seems like an aweful lot of alarmism and fear mongering. How many times have you or any of your friends had some strain of the flu and after a week or two recovered from it? Probably more times than you can count.

I just can't see the benefit of getting all worked up over this. You can watch it and keep track of what's happening, but it means nothing at this point to me.

glenn-k · October 25, 2005, 09:48:49 AM

I agree, tjm73. It appears to be a money thing. We can hope so.

Thanks for Quackwatch link, NELELGNE. I checked it out a bit to see what was there. I had seen the lawsuit brought by Barrett of Quackwatch, however he dropped it before it went to court.

The rest seems to be pots calling kettles black and warnings from FDA about unproven claims. As for the snake oil sold by Mercola, I wouldn't buy it, but that is not saying that it doesn't help some people in someways. Ephedra is a natural cure subject to abuse, but it is the best thing I have found taken moderately to relieve a light case of asthma. Theopholine- FDA approved on the other hand, drove me up the wall.

The difference between them and Tamiflu or similar products

Tamiflu admittedly will not keep you from getting the flu, you'll still throw up, you'll still feel terrible, will not guarantee to shorten the duration -- only may shorten the duration---will not keep you out of the hospital -- only may lessen your chances if taken within 48 hours of onset - how do you prove that

Tamiflu will not guarantee you will not die and it also may cause the flu bug to mutate into a more drug resistant form as mentioned in at least two other places. That would not be a problem for them as they would sell you something else. It has jumped through the hoops to get federal government approval. It has taken 2 Billion dollars from the American taxpayers pockets and transferred it to a corporation. Money from pain, death and dying is big business. That doesn't really seem right.

Aspirin may provide as much comfort and is on the shelves of most homes for a few cents each.

It seems for the cost incurred by the taxpayers and no guarantee of a cure by Tamiflu, in fact enough disclaimers that they can't be held responsible, that it also should be listed on Quackwatch.

The main factor here seems to be the massive scare tactics generating a large windfall for a corporation which will benefit insiders with stocks in the company and those insiders are in the group controlling the Federal taxpayers purse strings. The money cannot be taken from money we have paid, but will instead be added to the debt heap on our children.

I'd say have a nice warm bowl of chicken soup, take a couple of aspirin, spend a few extra hours in bed, and give my kid back his money.

glenn-k · October 25, 2005, 11:59:39 AM

That would be terrible, John. I'm sure it would devastate the donut industry.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :-/

tjm73 · October 25, 2005, 12:44:55 PM

QuoteI am coming to realize we are perhaps too primed for disaster right now....

I agree 110%.

Their is much unceranty (sp?) in the world right now. I said to a friend the other day that human history is moving toward a dark period right now. Things could change, but people are scared in general and they will cling to anything that supports their view. When things were good in the late 90's people irrationally clung to the market and drove unprescedented and undeserving growth. Now we're swinging the other way. Untill "people" as a group realize that it's not nearly as bad as they think, it'll remain a dark day.

glenn-k · November 02, 2005, 10:15:53 AM

Think about it - besides nature, who is keeping us primed for disaster. The same ones who fail to respond properly with the services we have paid for. Don't think that our photo-op white house resident is making so many trips to the storm ravaged south because he cares. His world is coming apart, and he needs to give the illusion that he cares. His PR people advise him of what looks better. They're going "You know George - that first fly by you did on Katrina didn't go over so well. Maybe you should act like you're taking a little more interest." He says "You're right, tell Alan to raise the rate."

As I stated earlier-

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/31/news/newsmakers/fortune_rumsfeld/

Motive for scaring you into using an ineffective product and control of who the biggest customer is helps to make the fat wallet fatter.

Too bad it's your money going into their wallet. See how proper scare techniques can transfer wealth from poor working class taxpayers to the wallets of wealthy politicians without the poor working fools (that would be us) complaining or even having any say in where it goes -- in fact they will make you beg for it and go along with anything they do.

Believe me, they're not doing it because they are concerned that you possibly may get an extra half a day of feeling a little bit better- (remember that these guys approve of torture)- -or not if you didn't start taking the $100 to $175 (http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/18/news/midcaps/ebay.reut/ ) a pop medicine within 48 hours of onset, and if you decide to go ahead and die you are on your own. They already passed their non-responsibility legislation that will keep your family from suing them if it or any other product they make causes your death or increases your problems if I recall correctly.

http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/hanchette179.html

Follow the money and just smile

as you see how the system works. Grab the remote, some snacks and a beer and flip through your favorite propaganda news, sitcoms and entertainment. Don't worry-be happy -it's about all you can do. I feel it's at least fun to know what's going on.

"The important thing is, NOT to stop questioning." Albert Einstein

Here's how I feel about it.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/bushism_fool_me_once.mp3

Get out of the City NOW!

Leo

Jimmy_Cason

Amanda_931

bil2054

jonseyhay

glenn-k

jraabe

Amanda_931

Amanda_931

John Raabe

Amanda_931

bloovis

glenn-k

Amanda_931

glenn-k

Bart_Cubbins

glenn-k

NELELGNE

tjm73

glenn-k

jraabe

glenn-k

tjm73

glenn-k